Ahahahah this is a way of saying that I'm wrong? These pokemon kills aegislash 99% of the time!
I think this discussion is pointless. In time, I hope everyone will vote NO. As I do. XD See ya
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
- Thread starter gr8astard
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I think this discussion is pointless. In time, I hope everyone will vote NO. As I do. XD See ya
-gizmo-
Smogon's Kingpin
I myself never saw aegislash as a banworthy pokemon until it was brought to my attention. But, I can see where this suspect test is coming from. The sheer versatility of it is almost unreal. It's got the ability to do almost anything, from toxic stalling, to pursuit trapping. It's created an unhealthy meta around itself and would open up for the use of new poke(i.e. gardevoir,medicham,heracross), whether it's just them running different coverage moves, or them seeing actual use. This could be good for the meta, and maybe rid a lot of players of the boredom they've been feeling with the current, somewhat stale meta-game.
Aegislash's viability in Ubers is completely irrelevant to OU's decisions whether or not to ban it. This shouldn't be an argument. Nor should be it mentioned in this thread. Thank you.
Aegislash's main reliable weakness is to specially defensive Will-O-Wisp user that can deal enough damage to prevent them from being complete set-up fodder but heavy hitting or very defensive dark and fire types work well. I am not entirely sure if Aegis is broken, because of the fact that checks and counters for him can also perform well against multiple Pokemon in the tier and are not an extreme liability.
1825 stats represent a very small fraction of all players, most of which would be the ones you'd see voting in this suspect test. Because we're looking for people that are competent in the metagame, it's counter-intuitive to both hold a suspect test open for these players who are competent and then suggest they're less than stellar. Somewhere there, your own logic is flawed simply based on the basis that suspect tests are for those knowledgeable in the meta.
However, even with the other options, what are you sacrificing to run them? Even if we say for standard Crumbler AND subtoxic that there is no opportunity cost between either, every other set you could dream up would be losing something for pokemon that many are obscure enough that, by statistics, are generally seen less that 1 in 20 games. (Aka Chesnaught, Amoongus, Hippowdon). It really can't get buy amoongus anyways and one of the OU counters (Spdef gliscor) falls right around a hard counter as well. And Landorus/Garchomp is going to check a set regardless of what it runs. They'll always outspeed and never be bothered by the set while checking. You may say statistics don't matter but I don't believe the numbers lie. The standard crumbler is far and away the most popular set by miles. Of the sets it would run to beat its counters, the only one it does for 0 opportunity cost is sub toxic. The counters are obscure enough that having Aegi beat them is generally just not necessary. At the end of the day, Aegi having access to a plethora of options doesn't mean he will use that move pool. And to be honest, even with those options, there's nothing there that makes him overpowered inherently.
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From the beginning of XY, we all knew that Aegislash was meta-defining in some way. He alone essentially invalidates many Pokemon, and changed a lot of movesets simply to have a counter him.
In the past, Fighting coverage was extremely similar to Ground. However Aegislash switched that all up, making the latter the preferred type since it hit him for 2x damage as opposed to 0x. The argument whether or not this end up being good or bad for the metagame is debateable, however personally for me I consider it was for the better. Then again, the opposition can say that Aegislash overcentralizes teams to focus on Ground-types and consider Fighting-types lackluster.
I personally think it is the most impactful change in OU if Aegislash ends up banned. The entire meta has shifted around Aegislash, for example many Pokemon such as Pinsir opted for EQ instead of Close Combat, and Fighting Pokemon are seen less due to their STAB being immune. If Aegislash were to be banned, tiers will shift incredibly with many Pokemon simply having no worry about Aegislash walling them. These Pokemon will be prevalent again in a meta in absence of him. Aegislash does fit the description of being a meta-defining Pokemon, and viability of other Pokemon are determined by the threat of Aegislash alone. It is true that by these reasonings Aegislash should be banned.
Me, I for one am on the side to keep Aegislash, mainly because I am afraid of the incredible collateral that results in having him banned. The meta will shift entirely, making for a good time of incredible chaos as we see how effective some Pokemon are with absence of Aegislash. Who knows, these Pokemon may define another metagame themselves (Mega Lucario did it even with Aegislash available) and they may have a huge impact in OU simply because "Aegislash is gone".
A meta-defining Pokemon like Aegislash does have merits that he is too strong and shifts the game accordingly. He invalidates certain playstyles; however, Aegislash could be considered as a "check" to those playstyles, because otherwise they may change OU themselves. I am a little bit torn between between my decision of Aegislash. I understand Aegislash's power, but I'm afraid of the collateral his absence will cause.
In the past, Fighting coverage was extremely similar to Ground. However Aegislash switched that all up, making the latter the preferred type since it hit him for 2x damage as opposed to 0x. The argument whether or not this end up being good or bad for the metagame is debateable, however personally for me I consider it was for the better. Then again, the opposition can say that Aegislash overcentralizes teams to focus on Ground-types and consider Fighting-types lackluster.
I personally think it is the most impactful change in OU if Aegislash ends up banned. The entire meta has shifted around Aegislash, for example many Pokemon such as Pinsir opted for EQ instead of Close Combat, and Fighting Pokemon are seen less due to their STAB being immune. If Aegislash were to be banned, tiers will shift incredibly with many Pokemon simply having no worry about Aegislash walling them. These Pokemon will be prevalent again in a meta in absence of him. Aegislash does fit the description of being a meta-defining Pokemon, and viability of other Pokemon are determined by the threat of Aegislash alone. It is true that by these reasonings Aegislash should be banned.
Me, I for one am on the side to keep Aegislash, mainly because I am afraid of the incredible collateral that results in having him banned. The meta will shift entirely, making for a good time of incredible chaos as we see how effective some Pokemon are with absence of Aegislash. Who knows, these Pokemon may define another metagame themselves (Mega Lucario did it even with Aegislash available) and they may have a huge impact in OU simply because "Aegislash is gone".
A meta-defining Pokemon like Aegislash does have merits that he is too strong and shifts the game accordingly. He invalidates certain playstyles; however, Aegislash could be considered as a "check" to those playstyles, because otherwise they may change OU themselves. I am a little bit torn between between my decision of Aegislash. I understand Aegislash's power, but I'm afraid of the collateral his absence will cause.
I believe that Aegislash is certainly a great pokémon; it is very versatile, has brilliant stats, and a movepool that contains everything that he needs to do his jobs. Is he, however, broken? I would argue no, primarily for two reasons; firstly, ground is and always has been a phenomenal stab and coverage type, with Earthquake being widely distributed and, notably, not a contact move, allowing it to be spammed against Aegislash with little risk towards the Earthquake user. Secondly, all of his main sets (with the exception of life orb and swords dance) are reliant on King's Shield, which can create free turns for your opponent, allowing a setup opportunity or a chance to burn Aegislash with will o wisp. Yes, he does centralize the metagame a fair bit, but his checks are numerous enough for his presence not to be too much of an issue. Thus, I would probably say no to a ban (assuming I qualify). Gl to everyone involved.
I don't have anywhere near the ranking to be able to vote, but I'd just like to throw something out there. Why not just ban King's Shield? Aegislash is only OP because it can switch between being insanely bulky or insanely powerful whenever it wants. If it doesn't have the ability to go back to its bulkier form, then it's no where near as OP. Please, please consider this:
Suspect King's Shield. Not Aegislash.
Suspect King's Shield. Not Aegislash.
That's a risk we have to take. It would be very boring if you knew what would happen. The mental game predicts is what in my opinion makes the competitive game so fantastic.
Wouldn't that accomplish the exact same thing? Aegislash depends on King's Shield to even be relevant in the tier, so banning one move to make it unviable is just ridiculous and unneeded.
Predicts? It isn't a Risk / Reward based prediction though, it is a 50/50 prediction, which is so so bad in a competitive game. It enables a bad player to have the exact same chance of being at an advantage as a good player when they are playing each other.
Can we please stop the "Collateral Damage" argument, I dont really see how its relevant at all and keeping something broken to keep a metagame in check sounds very odd. Besides, Aegislash is not the only counter to things, more things counter Mega Gardevoir and Mega Medicham than just Aegislash. The entire point of suspect tests is too see what happens when a broken pokemon is removed from the metagame
Honestly, at this point of the meta, I don't see what there's to discuss. Once the suspect is up and we see it's different sets on display, maybe, but right now there is absolutely no argument for versatile sets. A vast majority of the ones you see are still the cookie cutter deosharp 3rd wheelers. It does its job well, but you can reliably know how to handle handle it. The metagames adapted to its mixed sets, and while it's certainly centralizing, I wouldn't call it overly centralizing. You see it in the line up, like any other very good poke you plan how to handle it, and you attempt to execute that plan. I do the same thing with gyarados, and if it turns out to be rest talk instead, it's not that different than getting my garchomp poisoned by a surprise sub set. It is to a greater degree, but I'd say Charizard is a bigger offender in that regard, and undeniably the more immediate concern.
In this current meta game, I'm reasonably certain Aegislash isn't worth a ban. I might support one anyway after that Deoxys-S mess, but that doesn't change my view.
In this current meta game, I'm reasonably certain Aegislash isn't worth a ban. I might support one anyway after that Deoxys-S mess, but that doesn't change my view.
I...really don't know on this one. Aegislash is incredibly centralizing, no doubt about it, but centralization in and of itself isn't what makes a Pokemon banworthy. I think that it would be great if we could have two suspect ladders, one with Aegislash and one without. That would, imo, help a lot in determining whether a meta with Aegi or one without it would be better. For now, I think that "no ban" should be the default position, and I'm not convinced it should be banned, so I'd vote no, but I have little confidence in either choice.
I do not count Toxic and Hidden Power because they are moves that almost ALL pokemon learns. Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon are made to surprise the opponent, since almost all Aegislash is physical. Special Aegislash does not have much coverage beyond the Hidden Power, which I dislike.
Mixed Aegislash is good, but is weaker than a physical or an special because of the distribution of EVs. Head Smash is HORRIBLE except for the advantage to Fire, but by then the opponent has already used Fire Blast.
I'm strongly against this suspect test. People have been saying Aegislash will eventually be banned since before XY was even released and I honestly never saw why. Yes, it does have a rather big number of sets and some of them have different checks and counters, but so do a lot of Pokemon and that never meant something is broken. You could argue the "number" of sets is the thing that got Genesect banned, but it wasn't the only thing. Aegislash is indeed meta-defining, and one could argue that it's also overcentralizing, but then again so were a lot of other things in the past, and so are a lot of things right now other than Aegislash. Why did Assault Vest Azumarill spike up in usage? Keldeo. Why did Excadrill suddenly start running Mold Breaker earlier in the metagame over like, Sand Rush to abuse opponent's sand or one's own sand? Rotom-W and other Levitating mons. Why does Garchomp sometimes have Fire Blast? Why does Latios use Psyshock over Psychic? etc. Every Pokemon in the metagame can force something else to use a certain move, item, or moveset to have a way to counter said Pokemon; and as far as I know, that's the definition of overcentralizing, to make Pokemon [People] feel like they're forced to run something specific just because a certain other Pokemon exists. It's true that some Pokemon can be more overcentralizing than other Pokemon and some of them can restrict teambuilding like Shuckle did in RU, or like Mega Kangaskhan did in OU before it got banned, but I don't think that's the case for Aegislash. You could argue that it's the only reason for Scizor to be running Knock Off (I've heard quite a few people say that on PS), and while it's probably a big reason its not the only one. Knock Off is one of the best moves in general and really great to have, and Aegislash is definitely not the only reason one would run Knock Off on their Scizor.
Right now, Aegislash is holding many Pokemon back from their full potential; Mega Gardevoir and Mega Medicham are two examples. But so is Talonflame, who is pretty much the reason Volcarona dropped this generation and the reason so many other Pokemon aren't seen, isn't that overcentralizing in the same way that Aegislash is?
I haven't read much of the thread so I don't know the reasoning behind some people's opinions about wanting Aegislash gone, but I'll say it anyway. I guess the reason why Aegislassh can be identified as broken is the amazing defensive and offensive typing, good movepool, King's Shield, and the amazing stat spread. Those combined don't necessarily make Aegislash broken. The typing still gives it weaknesses to Ground- and Fire-type moves, two of which are common in OU from my experience, and with strong users in Excadrill and Charizard, as two examples. Its movepool is good however, and I guess I can't really argue about that, and so is its stat spread. But again, those are never a reason for a Pokemon to be broken. King's Shield on the other hand, can cause some mind-games, but mind-games is Pokemon anyway, since it all comes down to prediction and prediction can go both ways.
Aegislash is a metagame defining Pokemon, and as overcentralizing as any other Pokemon in the metagame, and I would compare it to 4th gen Scizor really, who was also #1 in usage all the time and was centralizing in possibly the same way, and it also created mindgames with U-turn.
Right now, Aegislash is holding many Pokemon back from their full potential; Mega Gardevoir and Mega Medicham are two examples. But so is Talonflame, who is pretty much the reason Volcarona dropped this generation and the reason so many other Pokemon aren't seen, isn't that overcentralizing in the same way that Aegislash is?
I haven't read much of the thread so I don't know the reasoning behind some people's opinions about wanting Aegislash gone, but I'll say it anyway. I guess the reason why Aegislassh can be identified as broken is the amazing defensive and offensive typing, good movepool, King's Shield, and the amazing stat spread. Those combined don't necessarily make Aegislash broken. The typing still gives it weaknesses to Ground- and Fire-type moves, two of which are common in OU from my experience, and with strong users in Excadrill and Charizard, as two examples. Its movepool is good however, and I guess I can't really argue about that, and so is its stat spread. But again, those are never a reason for a Pokemon to be broken. King's Shield on the other hand, can cause some mind-games, but mind-games is Pokemon anyway, since it all comes down to prediction and prediction can go both ways.
Aegislash is a metagame defining Pokemon, and as overcentralizing as any other Pokemon in the metagame, and I would compare it to 4th gen Scizor really, who was also #1 in usage all the time and was centralizing in possibly the same way, and it also created mindgames with U-turn.
I've seen both sides of this argument and I'm honestly torn.
On the Don't Ban side, it's weak to several common moves (Earthquake, Sucker Punch, etc), it has its share of solid counters & checks (mainly Bisharp), and Base 60 HP isn't too much to write home about.
On the Ban side, it has 150/150 offenses in its blade form and gets those offensive stats switched to defense in its shield form, it has quite a number of sets ranging for physical to special to SubToxic, and King's Shield can play some pretty ugly mind games putting into play the risk of a -2 attack drop for physical attackers.
If I get reqs, I don't know how I'm going to vote, but good luck everyone.
On the Don't Ban side, it's weak to several common moves (Earthquake, Sucker Punch, etc), it has its share of solid counters & checks (mainly Bisharp), and Base 60 HP isn't too much to write home about.
On the Ban side, it has 150/150 offenses in its blade form and gets those offensive stats switched to defense in its shield form, it has quite a number of sets ranging for physical to special to SubToxic, and King's Shield can play some pretty ugly mind games putting into play the risk of a -2 attack drop for physical attackers.
If I get reqs, I don't know how I'm going to vote, but good luck everyone.
This is my point. Banning King's Shield will nerf Aegislash probably down to UU. But it would still be more than viable. That way UU gets a new toy to play with and we essentially accomplish what banning Aegislash itself would do anyway. Aegislash, the Pokemon, is not OP. Aegislash with King's Shield is. Therefore, why not ban what makes it OP?
EDIT: I'd also like to note that I am 100% against the Aegislash ban, but with all these people saying "BAN IT IT'S TOO OP", I'm just trying to find a compromise of some sort.
Following your logic let's ban Sticky Web on Shuckle so it can return to RU or what if we ban Spikes on Froslass so it won't be OP? Hey, let's bring Ho-oh to OU lets ban BB, Sacred Fire, Roost and E-que so it won't be OP! No, it doesn't work that way kid, it is easier to ban the entire pokemon than to ban a move on a certain pokemon.
Because it's a thinly veiled attempt at directly nerfing Aegislash. We might have done bans to nerf teamstyles in the past, but never at specific Pokemon. You can "nerf" any Pokemon to force it to fit into a tier, but that in of itself defeats the entire point of the tiering system. If Aegislash is broken, it will be because the entire package of Aegislash is broken, not because of one piece of it.
Agreed
This is ridiculous! Aegislash is good, but he's far from banworthy. Being part of a strong core, making many Pokemon unviable, having good offensive/defensive capabilities, and being unlike most other Pokemon with its ability to create mindgames. The only thing that makes Aegislash especially notable is the latter category. The rest can be said about most of OU. Look, it's a somewhat-centralizing Pokemon in that any team that didn't carry EQ (maybe 10%?) really needs it now. It still has a wide variety of walls, walls that either force a switch or a useless KS. Having absolutely pitiful defenses in offensive form makes it only truly shine as a pivot, being able to switch in to anything it isn't weak to without worrying about being KOd immediately after. Obviously the most unique thing about Aegislash is the mindgames resulting from KS, something that almost everyone runs. But because of this very predictable move, a move it relies on to survive because of its effects making it differ from Protect, anyone with any experience taking on Aegislash can consider it setup fodder or status bait.
It really seems like the only justification anyone is providing for wanting it banned is 'IT MAKES MY FAVORITE MEGAS USELESS!' which is just asinine. Dominant threats emerge, if you want your favorite Mega to secure a place on your team, build the rest of the team accordingly. I don't need a MegaZard Y taking up my mega slot because M-Heracross is walled by Aegislash. I can make the rest of my team just a bit more capable of handling a threat to accommodate M-Hera (sidenote: EQ is a surprisingly great replacement for CC on M-Hera, as evidenced by the sheer number of Aegislashes I've destroyed with it.) Is Aegislash overpowered as a pivot? Probably. But too many things turn it into dead weight, too many things make it lucky to get a single kill. It's the only Pokemon I can defeat with a flowchart.
It really seems like the only justification anyone is providing for wanting it banned is 'IT MAKES MY FAVORITE MEGAS USELESS!' which is just asinine. Dominant threats emerge, if you want your favorite Mega to secure a place on your team, build the rest of the team accordingly. I don't need a MegaZard Y taking up my mega slot because M-Heracross is walled by Aegislash. I can make the rest of my team just a bit more capable of handling a threat to accommodate M-Hera (sidenote: EQ is a surprisingly great replacement for CC on M-Hera, as evidenced by the sheer number of Aegislashes I've destroyed with it.) Is Aegislash overpowered as a pivot? Probably. But too many things turn it into dead weight, too many things make it lucky to get a single kill. It's the only Pokemon I can defeat with a flowchart.
[cbb]:aegislash is a tournament players wet dream
[cbb]:because it's unpredictable, can do whatever the fuck it wants and is fucking ridiculously good at everything
so this post isnt total garbage, smogon doesn't do complex bans. it's just smogon's philosophy, we prefer to do the more simplistic approach in every case. even though banning kings shield is stupid anyway, so is complex banning, it just makes a messier banlist and leads to people questioning why this is a complex ban exception and anything else isnt.
[cbb]:because it's unpredictable, can do whatever the fuck it wants and is fucking ridiculously good at everything
so this post isnt total garbage, smogon doesn't do complex bans. it's just smogon's philosophy, we prefer to do the more simplistic approach in every case. even though banning kings shield is stupid anyway, so is complex banning, it just makes a messier banlist and leads to people questioning why this is a complex ban exception and anything else isnt.
Why are we starting a suspect test right after we just banned two things in the span of 2 days? I'd say we let the meta settle down a little. The people who want to ban Aegislash can wait a few more weeks. The people who want Aegislash to stay definitely won't be complaining. Let's not be hasty here.
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