np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]

[kokoloko]

It's time to Reload.

Hello, and welcome to the first official stage of XY UU. With the final round of bans taking place, Hawlucha, Houndoominite, Salamence, Magnezone, Haxorus, Hydreigon, Crawdaunt, Klefki, and Swagger all got the axe. So with that, the UU Council and I can confidently say that everything that is potentially broken in the tier is now gone. (except for Scald)

It's time to start pumping these Pokemon, Items, and Moves back into the metagame, one at a time, to see if they can stay. Our first retest is going to be Thundurus-T.

Discuss.

That is all.

 

[newfren]

I seriously have no idea how to build a team without specs magnezone or crawdaunt lol. This sure makes stall more viable though - a lot of those pokemon were tearing through it.

Very glad mence is gone.

 

[Calloflochie]

First! Fuck Billtodamax imo js tbh

Seriously tho, if anyone has a team that doesn't have any banned mons in it, props to you for using shit mons lol. Thundurus-T is scurry tho, with the removal of a lot of faster mons/mons that could take a hit from it (and priority in Crawdaunt's case), i can see it potentially being a very hard Pokemon to stop if it manages to get up any boosts. I can definitely see the use of specially defensive Hippo going up seeing as it no longer has to worry about all those physical dragons that were riddling the tier.

In my opinion, Thundurus-T will be leaving the tier again rather quickly although it will be interesting to see how truly 'broken' or not 'broken' it is seeing as the only time it spent in the tier was during the time of Scolipede pass to Mega-Heracross/Cube/all that other broken jazz. Also cheeky white except for scald there koko, i see you.

One last thing, i'm actually extremely surprised that Zygarde isn't on that ban list considering the absolute dominance that is the sub Coil set. Regardless with the removal of a lot of mons that kept it in check, it will be interesting to see if that guy gets a bit too out of hand in the future.

That's all for now though, i'm kinda scared how good stall is getting now since absolutely everything dangerous to it (besides Zygarde) has been removed.

UU WE BACK BITCHES

 

[dumbguyfin]

Some obviously broken thing like diggersby will probably get banned fast again, but i hope that things that arent that broken (like weavile, m-houndoom, klefki, hydreigon or haxorus) will be uu again

 

[Hidious]

My whole team got banned (with the exception of mega blastoise) but it's probably for the best. Looking are the viability ranking its hard to see very many pokemon checking thundurus-t. I don't see how it can possibly stay for very long

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

There's always Trace users. Though they aren't really the most relevant things in the meta right now.

 

[g]

I think stall now will be even more viable and Nidoking is arguably the best special wallbreaker in the tier. Chesnaught will probably see less usage with Crawdaunt ban but i can see a rise in popularity of some old UU staples like Banded Heracross to fill the gap. Also i have a reason to use Sharpedo which is always great.

 

[radianthero156]

damn, this round was a MASSIVE tier change. also, are we sure that reintroducing BLs one by one is the best way? in the start i thought it was just fine, but now i think that it is going to take a lot of time until the tier stabilizes. each BL that is being retested will cause direct centralization, and there are cases where BLs can be checked by other BLs (i can see thund-t being stupidly powerful, but weavile would check it). if we test one by one, i think there is a high chance that we'll ban just every BL in order to have the tier balanced

 

[Calloflochie]

damn, this round was a MASSIVE tier change. also, are we sure that reintroducing BLs one by one is the best way? in the start i thought it was just fine, but now i think that it is going to take a lot of time until the tier stabilizes. each BL that is being retested will cause direct centralization, and there are cases where BLs can be checked by other BLs (i can see thund-t being stupidly powerful, but weavile would check it). if we test one by one, i think there is a high chance that we'll ban just every BL in order to have the tier balanced

The whole point of this system is to make sure that the tier isn't being built on the fact that one broken mon can check another broken mon. If that were the case, a lot of mons (like the thundy/weavile example you gave) would still be wrecking havoc to the majority of the UU tier. It seems a bit silly/unbalanced to say that, in order to not be beaten by Thundurus, i have to be running a Weavile on my team, but idk maybe that's just me.

 

[Cuhpcakes]

"With the final round of bans taking place, Hawlucha, Houndoominite, Salamence, Magnezone, Haxorus, Hydreigon, Crawdaunt, Klefki, and Swagger all got the axe."

Are you saying that Klefki is now banned? Or just Swagger?

 

[Taehl]

"With the final round of bans taking place, Hawlucha, Houndoominite, Salamence, Magnezone, Haxorus, Hydreigon, Crawdaunt, Klefki, and Swagger all got the axe."

Are you saying that Klefki is now banned? Or just Swagger?

Both.

 

[Mudkip727]

Some obviously broken thing like diggersby will probably get banned fast again, but i hope that things that arent that broken (like weavile, m-houndoom, klefki, hydreigon or haxorus) will be uu again

If klefki returns and stays in UU I'l eat my socks. Seriously u have to rely on luck to win.(although swaggerban balances it though.

And galbia you're right, stall is getting more prominent with every ban. Although the loss of klefki hurts stall a lot. Mega aggron is now very tuff to beat with the core including florges. Just set up those toxic spikes and entry hazards and you're good to go! (Don't forget spin-blockers)

Anyways on the topic of thundurus-t, without chansey it can safely set up without getting stopped once and for all, and that volt absorb helps a lot when there's lots of electric types (including thundurus-t itself) around the tier, the only true stops i see is florges, bulky swampert/gastro/quag, hippo, choice scarf users and the irrelevent lanturn.

 

[nv]

To be honest I am glad to see all but M-Houndoom and Klefki go. Granted some, like Crawdaunt and Hydreigon, were "checkable" but they were a bit centralizing. With Thundy-T being brought into the mix and the lack of physical dragons, Specially Defensive Hippo is gonna be amazing. A calc for proof:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 325-385 (77.3 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not too shabby considering +2 and SE.

Overall I am excited to see what will come of the tier with the new bans and the upcoming suspect test. In all reality, Thundy-T won't last long because it is borken af.

EDIT: Another good thing to stop Thundy-T is Scarf Gardevoir. Calc:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 164-194 (58.9 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

People are looking at things in a vacuum, which honestly is not a good way to judge anything. Saying that thundurus-t is capable of run through almost everything after it boosts (im going to assume the double dance set here because thats what got it banned) but not taking in account the fact that it needs to find that setup turn with those pathetical defenses and sr weakness makes things to be scarier then they are. The banning of most dragons, zone, doom (why lol) and lucha will inevitably lead to the rise of the next best thing in offense: fire spam, zygarde and kyurem. The tier shift is going to be huge and the resulting meta will be the key to thundurus-t effectiveness.

 

[radianthero156]

the point about "a broken mon checking another broken mon" is that the line between broken and not broken is entirely arbitrary, it just depends on the size we want for BL. like, if we ban a lot of things, new things will just take their places as the new broken mon. for example, i noticed that chandelure's best checks have been banned, it has a now considerable chance of becoming extremely broken. if that happens, it might be banned, then stuff it checks will rise, and so it goes.

the question is: do we want a long or a short BL list?

 

[DiscoDucky]

damn, this round was a MASSIVE tier change. also, are we sure that reintroducing BLs one by one is the best way? in the start i thought it was just fine, but now i think that it is going to take a lot of time until the tier stabilizes. each BL that is being retested will cause direct centralization, and there are cases where BLs can be checked by other BLs (i can see thund-t being stupidly powerful, but weavile would check it). if we test one by one, i think there is a high chance that we'll ban just every BL in order to have the tier balanced

Second this motion. When allowed, all the BLs would create a slightly more manageable environment. Salamence a few days ago was completely unmanageable; however, if things such as Weavile and Thundurus were legal in the tier, Salamence would be more manageable. We cannot determine what is broken or not without considering the BL and UU as a whole selection pool. OU initially bans Pokemon at the start of each Generation due to previous history i.e. Deoxys-N, Deoxys-A, Darkrai, etc. This initial flood of bans is just over-protection and is basically forcing a metagame to form rather than letting it take shape and make decisions from there.

One of the things that personally irked me was the lack of data to justify the early bans, such as Thundurus-T, Wobuffet, and Rain/Sun. I personally feel that those decisions were made based on potential situations of brokeness, which we do not know whether they would or would not happen. As the first official stage of UU, I definitely think it would mathematically make sense to release all the BL into UU and make decisions on potential bans from there.

 

[Joycdonnell]

With the last bans, is sure that Thundurus-T is gonna slay great portion of the UU metagame if you let set Nasty Plot, he has a great movepool to defeat a specific threat but only can have 4 moves (3 offensive since gonna carry nasty plot)so that is a good thing to face him

can learn Sludge wave for Florges
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 309-364 (85.8 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Only can thing in Mienshao when it comes to revenge kill it (since can use scarf to defeat even scarf thundurus-T with his 105 base speed)
252 Atk Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 284-336 (94.6 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Or Rhyperior (unless it brings Grass Knot or a grass/water friend)...

 

[lol kingler]

Interesting changes. Compared to right after Diggersby and that group got banned, where every team was heavy stall, I thought this more offensive stage was a lot more fun. Or maybe I'm just better at it. It will be interesting to see how testing goes, I'm unsure on how testing things gradually or one at time will go. Testing in groups with where the tested pokes can check/counter each other seems to make more sense.

 

[Calloflochie]

I think what you guys are missing with this system is that it is there to show a mon's lone capabilities in the UU tier. If the other mons are placed back into the game, we experience what happened during this first phase of banning, the most broken mons leave first and slowly but surely, all the other mons begin to follow in accordance with how the bans play out. Where as if only one pokemon is injected into the metagame, you can see what it is capable of doing against the mons that are definitely going to be staples of the UU tier, NOT the borderline broken mons that are sort of balanced only because of the presence of other broken mons.

This basically means that, for example, Thundurus-T without the addition of ANY other BL mons can still be reliably checked/countered by the pokemon avaiable in the tier at this moment, if it cannot be, then it will get placed back in BL, however, if it proves to be extremely mediocre, then it will remain in UU, regardless of the decisions made on the other BL mons.

I hope that sort of explained it or I have at least somewhat understood the method to the UU council's madness and we can start enjoying the tier we all know and love.

#UUMETABESTMETA

 

[RotomPoison]

Aaaaaaand there go all of my good teams. So based on my UU experience so far:

Thundurus-T vs the metagame: (hidden by viability rank for organization and because it's really long)

S Rank

S Rank

Mew = 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 149-177 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Mew Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 158-186 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Mew can not switch in and 2HKO before taking 3 hits, meaning it is in no way a counter to Thundurus-T, same going for an offensive Mew, which can not beat it, Sucker Punch never comes close to OHKOing, and offensive Mew is 2HKOd.

Mienshao

252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 240-283 (88.5 - 104.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Note no Life Orb. Not a counter, but checks/revenge kills with Stone Edge. Check.

Slowbro

no.

Thundurus-T

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 224-265 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Can never OHKO with Rocks without a Life Orb, but you risk a tie if you actually try this and cannot KO with a Scarf.

Tornadus-T

no.

A Rank

A+ Rank

Blastoise (Mega)

no.

Darmanitan

Rock Slide and Flare Blitz KO. 252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 256-303 (72.9 - 86.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Check.

Florges

Obviously walls but cannot do much back.

Check.

Suicune

no.

Umbreon

252 SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 170-202 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Again no Life Orb. So technically not a check, without factoring accuracy.

Victini

Never OHKOs Victini, Victini OHKOs, but is outsped.

A Rank

Celebi

Cannot do anything back. Is never 2HKOd. If you want to say Ancientpower counts go ahead, but this is a

Check.

Chandelure

Scarf checks but otherwise flat out loses under any circumstance.

So... I guess you can say Check.

Chesnaught

HP Ice 2HKOs, factoring Rocks and Leftovers. SpDef Chesnaught wins but don't use this.

Cloyster

lol.

Crobat

no.

Forretress

2HKOd, etc.

Heracross

Scarf is a shaky check, but regardless:

Check.

Hippowdon

252 SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 186-220 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Life Orb 2HKOs. Needs Stone Edge to do anything back, so not calling this a check.

Manectric (Mega)

They both 2HKO each other, but Manectric does not need to rely on Focus Blast. Definitely a

Check.

Metagross

252+ Atk Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 198-234 (66 - 78%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

But Metagross is slower..... Check.

Nidoking

is 2HKOd, OHKOs, is slower.

Check.

Reuniclus

252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 183-216 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

Loses to Life Orb. Can not OHKO. Even with Rocks.

Roserade

Is 2HKOd and cannot OHKO, even with Rocks.

Shaymin

Gets 2HKOd but again cannot OHKO even with Rocks.

Starmie

no.

Zygarde

Never OHKOd unless Life Orb is factored in, KOs, is unfortunately slower

A- Rank

Absol (Mega)

Outspeeds only after mega evolving and they OHKO each other, so not exactly a check.

Aggron (Mega)

Nope. Isn't OHKOd but can't in return without Head Smash which is extremely bad.

Arcanine

Flare Blitz + ESpeed OHKOs. LO Flare Blitz or SR and Flare Blitz KOs. Thunderbolt never KOs even with Rocks.

Check.

Azelf

Obviously a check.

Doublade

Escavalier

Gastrodon

Jirachi

Krookodile

Kyurem

Machamp

Nidoqueen

Smeargle

Tentacruel

Toxicroak

Trevenant

B Rank

B+ Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega)

Ampharos (Mega)

Bronzong

Cobalion

Ditto

Donphan

Drapion

Durant

Empoleon

Entei

Froslass

Gourgeist

Honchkrow

Jellicent

Mismagius

Noivern

Raikou

Rotom-H

Sableye

Snorlax

Tangrowth

Vaporeon

Vivillon

B Rank

Abomasnow (Mega)

Aerodactyl

Amoonguss

Blastoise

Galvantula

Gardevoir

Kingdra

Liepard

Quagsire

Rotom-C

Sharpedo

Sigilyph

Slowking

Swampert

Tornadus

Virizion

Yanmega

Zoroark

B- Rank

Alomomola

Archeops

Articuno

Banette (Mega)

Braviary

Cofagrigus

Cresselia

Dugtrio

Exploud

Gorebyss

Heliolisk

Hitmontop

Lanturn

Milotic

Ninjask

Qwilfish

Rhyperior

Scrafty

Seismitoad

Shuckle

Slurpuff

Stoutland

Uxie

Venomoth

Xatu

C Rank

C+ Rank

Ambipom

Avalugg

Claydol

Cryogonal

Feraligatr

Feroseed

Lilligant

Malamar

Meloetta

Porygon2

Steelix

Swellow

Tyrantrum

Weezing

C Rank

Barbaracle

Chatot

Cinccino

Clawitzer

Delphox

Druddigon

Flygon

Gallade

Hitmonlee

Jolteon

Moltres

Omastar

Porygon-Z

Sceptile

Spiritomb

Whimsicott

C- Rank

Gligar

no.

D Rank

D Rank

Shedinja

lol

Dusclops

lol

Electivire

This thing wins if Focus Blast misses. God dammit Electivire.

Leavanny

no.

THIS IS LONG AND TAKES A WHILE: WIP.

 

[Sleepless]

I think there is a downside to the current evaluating system. A current example is propably (maybe) deaming Thundurus-T beacuse the current checks\counters in the metagame aren't enough to properly deal with it, but if other units from the BL list were added, let's say even if just one or two key threats, this current tested threat (Thundurus-T is just an example) might become balanced. I believe this example might exists when specific BL units that will be tested sepearatly to be judged broken but if tested in together, they will counter-balance each other and although become key units in the metagame, will be balanced in it or even make the whole metagame more versitale/balance than before with their absence. Just food for though I guess.

I will miss testing the new threats without some of the former member like Crawdaunt, Hawlucha and Haxorus and hope to see them back. Also am eager to test the reloading of Thundurus.

 

[kokoloko]

that isn't a flaw because we are open to testing things more than once after everything has been tested already.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

This is a really gigantic tier change. It's going to be weird seeing mainstays like Crawdaunt, Hawlucha, Haxorus and Magnezone suddenly getting the boot. I'm kind of confused why Zygarde and Kyurem are still allowed, but eh, whatever.

Thundurus-T is probably very big here because the last time we had him we also had stuff like Chansey and Latias, both of which could check Thundurus somewhat decently. Eh, IDK though. (and im not sure why Weavile isn't being tested first lol) That said, I felt Thundurus was still somewhat underwhelming, even when he was still around. He has a lot of options to run so it gets kind of hard to put together a decent enough moveset (there's like NP/Agility/Volt Switch/Knock Off/Thunderbolt/HP Ice/HP Grass/Focus Blast/U-turn/i don't even know).

(also i just noticed this basically takes a gigantic shit over the research week thread which happens to be looking at mence... rip)

 

[skies]

Aww, no, Klefki was the center of my team ;-;. Well, Thundurus-T is honestly more than welcome in my opinion! I have a feeling it will get banned, but whatever. I'm liking a set of Focus Blast / Thudnerbolt / Hidden Power [Flying] or [Ice] / U-Turn (or Volt Switch) will be a great set. Maybe backed by Choice Scarf. Or the harder, but best, set: Double booster. That set will be very threatening if it can set up; but therein lies the issue, if it can set up. It's not bulky at all. Or, I could see it being another kind of Thundurus-T: Defiant. Just like Thundurus, but with less Attack. Wild Charge / Knock Off / Superpower / Fly would be a great set if you want a Defiant user! I'm happy with the other bans, however I will miss Houndoomite. Scald ban when?

 

[TM13IceBeam]

All 3 of the new dragons are just up and gone? I was feeling confident that we would just get used to the dragons and sooner or later have more diverse fairys in the future. Half the discussions in UU are about Crawdaunt and how many counters we can find for it (quiet a couple actually, he's got a slow start and hates special attacks). Klefki I would have hoped got more controllable after swagger abuse got fixed and I'm not going to defend Hawlucha in anyway but come on, so many bans and not one is Cloyster.

As for Thunderus T, it's just Tornadus Bird with 3 more resistances, I'm going to guess it'll be better assuming niether gets banned.

#teamkyurem #teamzygarde lgi

Cloyster is a scary sweeper but there are like a million and one bulky waters around, all of which can tank a few hits from Cloyster.

Also Thundurus-T is so different from Tornadus-T or Tornadus-I i don't think they will even be the same lol. Thundurus-T draws more of a parallel to our good friend Landorus-I, with somewhat similar matchups (same immunities, Thundurus trades a 4x ice weakness and Ground STAB for Electric STAB and SR weakness). Both are stupidly strong special attackers that sit in the same speed tier, can double their speed, and can boost their SpA (NP Thundurus vs. CM Landorus).

Of course Thundurus dropping is going to be big, especially when it was already big when Chansey/Latias still existed and provided decent specially bulky switchins to Thundurus. Whip out your Florges, people, this is going to be a rough one.