np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up

[Nysyr]

Lets see, what does Haxorus have that Salamence lacked, and viceversa.

Salamence:
- Can run Mixed very well
- Better Speed tier
- Intimidate + Moxie
- Immune to [toxic]spikes

Haxorus:
- Better attack stat
- Better 2/3 move coverage via MoldBreaker
- Access to DoubleDance
- Mold Breaker taunt (smd aromatisse)
- Arguably better typing as its not weak to SR, or 4x ice weak (for reference, 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 205-244 (69.7 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock; not the strongest ice move but a good measurement of its physical bulk.)

Personally I find Haxorus forces too much focus on the speed tier, since if you don't outrun it it generally can't be considered a counter. Basically you need to run super fast HO teams to not get boned by this.

And for those who say its easy to revenge, take a look at where 'mence is now.

(Also everyone run scarf hyd while this test is going on, just to be a troll.)

Even without the test it was already pretty popular as a scarfer :o

Just lacks power too much for my tastes, LO set is just so much more prevalent. Nape/Shao is probably the go to scarfers since they both beat Hyd in speed and power/coverage. Special scarfers are kinda meh due to the fatness of the tier on the special defense side.

 

[Machi]

(Also everyone run scarf hyd while this test is going on, just to be a troll.)

Even without the test it was already pretty popular as a scarfer :o

 

[Chronobreak]

Lets see, what does Haxorus have that Salamence lacked, and viceversa.

Salamence:
- Can run Mixed very well
- Better Speed tier
- Intimidate + Moxie
- Immune to [toxic]spikes

Haxorus:
- Better attack stat
- Better 2/3 move coverage via MoldBreaker
- Access to DoubleDance
- Mold Breaker taunt (smd aromatisse)
- Arguably better typing as its not weak to SR, or 4x ice weak (for reference, 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 205-244 (69.7 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock; not the strongest ice move but a good measurement of its physical bulk.)

Personally I find Haxorus forces too much focus on the speed tier, since if you don't outrun it it generally can't be considered a counter. Basically you need to run super fast HO teams to not get boned by this.

And for those who say its easy to revenge, take a look at where 'mence is now.

(Also everyone run scarf hyd while this test is going on, just to be a troll.)



Just lacks power too much for my tastes, LO set is just so much more prevalent. Nape/Shao is probably the go to scarfers since they both beat Hyd in speed and power/coverage. Special scarfers are kinda meh due to the fatness of the tier on the special defense side.

Now, I do agree with you that haxorus outshot of pressure on the speed tier. But is that necessarily a bad thing? With the amount of bulk, especially on the special side, of this tier, offense really struggles due to the lack of effectiveness of offense on one side of the spectrum. Haxorus provides pressure from the physical side to deter stall, while having enough flaws like bad defense and mediocre speed. In addition, one spread is not necessarily better than the other, and are stopped by the respective mons depending on the set. Fairies stop Outrage variants while blissey can wear the other variants down so it is easily revenge killed.


TL;DR: in my opinion, haxorus should be UU because of the important counterbalance it brings to the metagame.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Mostly theorymonning, but I think haxorus will be relatively healthy for the meta, because it acts as a counterbalance to most of the monstrous special walls in the game, but lacking enough speed and defense to avoid getting revenge killed. In this way, it is similar to staraptor in that it gets worn down really easily, but unlike raptor, it lacks a spammable STAB, priority, and needs a turn to set up to do real damage. Because it's lacking those three elements, it's not as overpowering as Staraptor.

1) Define counterbalance? If you're saying that it destroys Special walls, there are a list of Pokemon that can destroy Blissey in UU (Infernape, Hydreigon, etc.)
2) To be completely honest, speed is hardly the issue for Haxorus for a couple of reasons. First, he's either going to be a wall-breakers or sweeper. The former only needs enough speed to outpace walls while the latter gets a Scarf equivalent boost to Speed, which allows it to outpace the un-scarfed metagame. Furthermore, 76/90 are passable enough HP/Def stats to avoid an OHKO at full health as well as take not as significant damage from priority moves.
3) I'm pretty sure that this has been more than covered since the beginning of X/Y, but just because it has an immunity doesn't mean Outrage is spammable. Even though most defensive teams carry between 1 -2 Dragon checks (mostly 1 Fairy and 1 Steel, the latter of which gets fucking murdered by Earthquake), a lot of UU Pokemon such as Gothorita and Magneton can easily trap and delete most of Haxorus' counters.

The issue with Haxorus is that nothing can really safely switch into Haxorus. Back in B/W, if you looked at the Usage stats, they used to do something called "avg KOs per game", and Haxorus had an average of at least 1 per game throughout the entirety of B/W. However, Haxorus' speed was way under the normal Speed benchmark in OU (which was like 100+) and there was shit like Scizor that ccould safely Revenge-kill it. Surprisingly enough, Haxorus is pretty fast for this metagame. Even though it behind Hydreigon and under Base 100, the speed benchmark is much lower in this tier to the point where his speed isn't all that big of an issue. In fact, I would argue that it's one of the faster Offensive Pokemon in the tier. Furthermore, the tier is arguably a tad bit lighter on the priority scale (or heavier idk). Somewhat like Hydreigon, Haxorus has no true counter in UU (Shedinja lol), but unlike Hydreigon Haxorus has tools (boosting moves) that allow it to capitalize on its lack of counters and transform into a ridiculous monster.

 

[Chronobreak]

1) Define counterbalance? If you're saying that it destroys Special walls, there are a list of Pokemon that can destroy Blissey in UU (Infernape, Hydreigon, etc.)
2) To be completely honest, speed is hardly the issue for Haxorus for a couple of reasons. First, he's either going to be a wall-breakers or sweeper. The former only needs enough speed to outpace walls while the latter gets a Scarf equivalent boost to Speed, which allows it to outpace the un-scarfed metagame. Furthermore, 76/90 are passable enough HP/Def stats to avoid an OHKO at full health as well as take not as significant damage from priority moves.
3) I'm pretty sure that this has been more than covered since the beginning of X/Y, but just because it has an immunity doesn't mean Outrage is spammable. Even though most defensive teams carry between 1 -2 Dragon checks (mostly 1 Fairy and 1 Steel, the latter of which gets fucking murdered by Earthquake), a lot of UU Pokemon such as Gothorita and Magneton can easily trap and delete most of Haxorus' counters.

The issue with Haxorus is that nothing can really safely switch into Haxorus. Back in B/W, if you looked at the Usage stats, they used to do something called "avg KOs per game", and Haxorus had an average of at least 1 per game throughout the entirety of B/W. However, Haxorus' speed was way under the normal Speed benchmark in OU (which was like 100+) and there was shit like Scizor that ccould safely Revenge-kill it. Surprisingly enough, Haxorus is pretty fast for this metagame. Even though it behind Hydreigon and under Base 100, the speed benchmark is much lower in this tier to the point where his speed isn't all that big of an issue. In fact, I would argue that it's one of the faster Offensive Pokemon in the tier. Furthermore, the tier is arguably a tad bit lighter on the priority scale (or heavier idk). Somewhat like Hydreigon, Haxorus has no true counter in UU (Shedinja lol), but unlike Hydreigon Haxorus has tools (boosting moves) that allow it to capitalize on its lack of counters and transform into a ridiculous monster.

1) What I mean by counterbalance is that it destroys the pink core shenanigans in the tier right now, which is the dominant playstyle in the meta, leading to a more diverse meta, because pink core stuff is now not dominant, and other styles can be run more effectively.
2) I don't know exactly what I was thinking, I was trying to say it lacks speed to avoid the majority of revenge killers. And while it avoids a lot of OHKOes, it certainly can't take advantage of its setup moves, which help it get past counters.
3) I don't understand your third question, but I think I'm not gonna say anything else until I've laundered with it a bit, than I can truly decide ban or not.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I kinda deviated on my third point, and tbh I've completely forgot what I meant regarding the third point.

 

[TheTabKey]

Haxorus is broken case closed onto Venomoth please.

No but seriously, this thing destroys everything...

LOL PLS BAN ME (Haxorus) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
- Outrage


Since he started getting suspected, I've won every battle where the opponent didn't use one of these.
The fact that he can Lum Berry off the confusion from Outrage, burns, toxic spikes, paralysis, anything else that could possibly cripple him, and then proceed to kill everything with Outrage or EQ (I have Poison Jab literally for Florges and Aromatisse, I'm sure there's a better move to put there though for more/better coverage).

IMO This thing needs to go more than Staraptor, or even Tornadus-T did. Not once did I have a problem with Tornadus, and Staraptor literally kills itself.

Tornadus-T without Chansey just seems so much... Less broken. Staraptor was powerful but... Killed itself lol.

Haxorus on the other hand... IMO it needs to be banned. It's unhealthy.

 

[Schpoonman]

Blissey slows down/stops Haxorus. Right.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 570-672 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Suuure.

How in the hell does Torn-T without Chansey make it less broken? You can Knock Off its Eviolite and make it MUCH easier to KO. Apologies for staying in the past, but it's a comment that I felt needed to be relevantly addressed.

 

[RowDog]

Reviving the discussion to do with Shadow Tag, why didn't this get the ban hammer? The only thing which has ever been broken about Wobbuffet and Gothitelle is that stupid ability, and now it is causing problems in Gothorita. It would also free up Gothitelle who might be alright with a Competitive set (though it will probably drop). It just makes more sense to ban the ability at the moment as it is just too effective, and the users of it are really not that good without it.

 

[Schpoonman]

If Wobbuffet/Goth line/whoever else aren't broken but aren't even remotely close to viable without Shadow Tag, why make the distinction? I'd agree in Gen V because of Chandelure, but at this point just ban the troublesome Pokemon. Maybe I don't see Gothorita higher on the ladder because I'm kinda shitty at Pokemon and so I really only ever break the 1400s regularly, but I think banning an Ability still qualifies as a complex ban.

 

[dodmen]

On DD sets, Haxorus should run Dual Chop. This allows it to get past Sash Alakazam, which would otherwise stop it's sweep with Dazzling Gleam.

 

[mertyville]

To see how dangerous Haxorus is just by theorymoning.
Unlike Salamence, it does not rely much on unaccurate moves *cough* iron tail *cough* or has to go mixed (well, its special attack sucks anyways).
Its attack is so insane that it does not rely on Life Orb or Choice Band that much making Lum Berry (like many already mentioned) more than just a viable option.
I wonder if people are still going to run that random but sometimes very annoying Focus Sash Set lol

 

[newfren]

CB Haxorus is pretty fun to use. I gave it some tailwind support cause I was testing a set for shaymin for next best thing (hint it didn't work) and whenever I got it in with tailwind support it rekt face. A problem it faces is the faster dragons in the tier can basically all ohko you although I haven't tried the DD set which looks slightly ridiculous.

 

[Kushalos]

Haxorus let the fun begin :)

 

[Boltaway]

If Wobbuffet/Goth line/whoever else aren't broken but aren't even remotely close to viable without Shadow Tag, why make the distinction? I'd agree in Gen V because of Chandelure, but at this point just ban the troublesome Pokemon. Maybe I don't see Gothorita higher on the ladder because I'm kinda shitty at Pokemon and so I really only ever break the 1400s regularly, but I think banning an Ability still qualifies as a complex ban.

Ability bans are not complex bans. Neither would a ban on a move. Drizzle + Swift Swim is a complex ban because it has 2 variables. Moody was banned in all tiers and that qualifies as a simple ban.

Either way, I guess the question is whether or not its worth it. Do we gain more from banning Shadow Tag and unbanning Wobuffet and Gothitelle? I mean UU doesn't really gain anything, only NU, which probably won't use either of those mons. Likewise, if Gothita is a problem we could just ban Gothita, but then we're acting on three bans when we could just be doing one ban, which is in fact, simpler.

So a Shadow Tag ban is simpler, not complex.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Shadow tag is already banned on showdown actually so there isnt anything else to discuss about it.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

a couple of nights ago i tossed together a team of hax/goth/3 uturners and easily got to somewhere around the high 1300s within an hour or so.


the amt of shit gothorita eliminates from the field is so much, im actually glad to see it go lol

 

[Talpr0ne]

Ability bans are not complex bans. Neither would a ban on a move. Drizzle + Swift Swim is a complex ban because it has 2 variables. Moody was banned in all tiers and that qualifies as a simple ban.

Either way, I guess the question is whether or not its worth it. Do we gain more from banning Shadow Tag and unbanning Wobuffet and Gothitelle? I mean UU doesn't really gain anything, only NU, which probably won't use either of those mons. Likewise, if Gothita is a problem we could just ban Gothita, but then we're acting on three bans when we could just be doing one ban, which is in fact, simpler.

So a Shadow Tag ban is simpler, not complex.

Gothitelle is a cool Defog absorber in RU and NU don't hate on it :c

 

[Ununhexium]

[Tornadus: BL | Next: Haxorus}

This is bothering me more than it should. Can we please change the "}" to a "]"

Regarding the Shadow Tag ban, I am okay with it because Gothorita essentially does the same thing as Gothitelle (which sucks) and lets face it, nobody is going to use Gothita

 

[Patrick1088]

Stop yeah Haxorus is pretty tough to stop once it gets boosts... I ran Sticky Web and DD Hax and it allowed it to beat its normal checks after 1 boost... I guess I'm leaning more towards it's a little too much for UU...

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Stop yeah Haxorus is pretty tough to stop once it gets boosts... I ran Sticky Web and DD Hax and it allowed it to beat its normal checks after 1 boost... I guess I'm leaning more towards it's a little too much for UU...

Sticky Web doesn't help him against his most common check in Scarfdreigon, it does help against Scarfshao. Instead I have been running a Sub Salac DD Hax (not really that good but allowing it to get +2 speed in situations it can't otherwise is invaluable) alongside with SD Luke on an HO team and I have never had so much fun smashing things before lol. If you haven't tried it before, definitely try SD Luke + Hax (Band/SD works too), they can weaken each other's checks for either to sweep.

 

[Stef0w]

So, haxorus: it hits like a trick straped to a train, falling from mount everest, on to a box of matches (these matches are the faces of the UU pokemon).

But, is it broken? In some aspects, most certainly, but it might actually help out the meta quite a bit.

This thing can easily take on the pink core, that, as of this writing, can take on most everything else in the tier.

This thing forces people to rely on other pokes, than the otherwise safe pink core, such as mega aero, alakazam, meinshao, and hydreigon.

This thing is overall pretty easy to check, and it's moves can easily be played around (EQ, dragon claw, poison jab), and it's typing dont resist any common priority.

I really do think this thing has a place, if only for forcing lazy people to rely on something outside of pink core (which I find to be a good thing).

 

[kokoloko]

your reasoning is both good and absolute crap.

pink core isn't even remotely unhealthy for the metagame, its one of those things that people who want to cruise the ladder getting easy wins against mediocre players use. and then when they come across a good player, they're in for a lot more trouble.

however, i kinda do think haxorus is a healthy presence in the metagame. not because it makes a certain defensive archetype a liability but because it makes fire spam offense harder to execute. victini can no longer spam v-create in the face of any slowbro-less team with no fear of repercussion because now DD haxorus can come in after the kill and set up (granted, take 70% as it sets up, but a 17% haxo can still sweep). before haxorus, the worst that could happen was hydreigon coming in firing off a specs/lo draco, which is damaging but not game-ending.

not sure if this makes up for the complete lack of counters and sheer fucking power haxorus possesses, but it certainly does to a small degree. just another part of the bigger picture i suppose. perhaps this in combination with its mediocre bulk and garbo speed tier (honestly 97 sucks when the most common scarfer sits at 98 lol) is enough to keep it uu. we'll see.

 

[Meru]

I honestly think that balance and stall teams are getting too thrashed by Haxorus. Stall teams just get straight up obliterated by certain SD Haxorus sets but at this point, saving stall is pretty much impossible, so nobody is complaining about that nonexistant SD/PJab/DClaw/EQ, even if it is hard countering stall. The bigger problem I have with Haxorus is the versatility between DD and SD. I've been using Mega Aggron and Scarf Hydreigon and I've come across my fair share of annoyances where I'm expecting DD Haxorus only to switch in Mega Aggron and get slammed by +2 Earthquake, meaning I've been exposed for pretty much anything to blow past me. Mega Aggron is pretty much the best defensive match up you can get against Haxorus aside from maybe Swampert if it has DClaw, or Fairies (but you need to be sure there's no Poison Jab otherwise you get pretty much nothing for your efforts).

However, if I try to predict the DD or SD set up and switch in Scarf Hydreigon, I can eat a Dragon Claw and now I no longer have my revenge killer, letting something like Mega Absol reap the rewards of Haxorus's efforts, as long as it predicts whether to SD, DD, or DClaw. I still feel it's similar to the Salamence test where Dragon Dance, and speed boosting moves in general, are just too good for the UU tier unless you can keep up 24/7 offensive pressure and/or have priority to finish it off. There's also other downsides, like bulky waters needing to run Ice Beam, which makes them overall less efficient, as well as certain slower Scarfers like Hera and Krook being made slightly worse, as without a Moxie boost, Haxorus gets a nice and clean DD and outspeeds and goes to town with that monstrous attack stat.

I'm definitely gonna playtest a little more and see what else I can come up with but for now, it's been hitting my teams just a little too hard for my tastes.

 

[mertyville]

Mega Aggron is probobly the worst thing to switch into Haxorus because
1. there is no reason to run a Choiced Haxorus to begin with
2. Mold Breaker ignores Filter
3. Outrage-Spam is not relevant since after a boost Dragon Claw and Double Chop do the job fine enough