np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up

[President Shinra]

Setting up on HO is hard enough unless you're in on something that LITERALLY cannot touch you, and most HO teams don't carry those things.

 

[RowDog]

Setting up on HO is hard enough unless you're in on something that LITERALLY cannot touch you, and most HO teams don't carry those things.

Well you could run into a Krook choice locked into EarthQ, but that would be a pretty bloody bad play to lock yourself into EarthQ with a Hawlucha around lol.

But honestly, I think the comparison between Lucario and Hawlucha is pretty spot on. Both of them sweep with about the same amount of reliability and have a similar amount of setup opportunities, both of which are also deadly in the late game especially. Though then again, I've almost been on the fence of thinking that Lucario could be potentially broken.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Both Lucario and Hawlucha really sweep consistently once they set up but often I find that Lucario is better. Hawlucha needing 2 turns to fully set up proves to be an nuisance since applying offensive pressure can pretty much gurantee you not getting the 2 free turns and Hawlucha is kinda weak without the SD because unlike Luke it can't hold a boosting item and it only has a passable base 92 atk. Due to Unburden's nature you really only get 1 chance to sweep against fast offensive teams which is bad because it is very matchup dependent. You pretty much can't sweep without getting rid of opposing Fletchinder, Sableye or Doublade, but Lucario can at least run a different moveset to rid of its usual checks (i.e. Bullet Punch for Sableye and Aerodactyl, Ice Punch for Gligar and Queen) and that always keep me on edge when facing opposing Lukes. Overall I found Lucario more consistent over Hawlucha as a late game sweeper despite its suspectibility to getting LO stalled, its versatility, extra power and ability to set up multiple times in a match makes it a better cleaner than Lucha.

That is just me tho :^]

 

[Jaguar360]

Both Lucario and Hawlucha really sweep consistently once they set up but often I find that Lucario is better. Hawlucha needing 2 turns to fully set up proves to be an nuisance since applying offensive pressure can pretty much gurantee you not getting the 2 free turns and Hawlucha is kinda weak without the SD because unlike Luke it can't hold a boosting item and it only has a passable base 92 atk. Due to Unburden's nature you really only get 1 chance to sweep against fast offensive teams which is bad because it is very matchup dependent. You pretty much can't sweep without getting rid of opposing Fletchinder, Sableye or Doublade, but Lucario can at least run a different moveset to rid of its usual checks (i.e. Bullet Punch for Sableye and Aerodactyl, Ice Punch for Gligar and Queen) and that always keep me on edge when facing opposing Lukes. Overall I found Lucario more consistent over Hawlucha as a late game sweeper despite its suspectibility to getting LO stalled, its versatility, extra power and ability to set up multiple times in a match makes it a better cleaner than Lucha.

That is just me tho :^]

If you use SubSD though, setting up is so much easier since you essentially get a free Swords Dance behind the substitute, and you're not vulnerable to status behind the Sub either (the only problem is that you need two Subs and/or prior damage to activate the Sitrus Berry). I agree with most of what you said though, as Unburden forcing you to only have one chance to sweep is very unfortunate and we have much more priority than when it was first banned with two common Ice Shard users, Lucario and Arcanine with Extremespeed, Sableye with priority Will-o-wisp, and Fletchinder. Like with Aegislash in OU, Hawlucha can't do anything at all with Doublade on the other team and needs support to lure it out and damage it sufficiently.

Besides that though, Hawlucha (SubSD especially) just sweeps so well and with a little support, sweeping conditions are in its favor so I'm still not sure whether it should be banned or not.

 

[RowDog]

Except vsing Balanced teams, that SubSD set can be a fair bit of a set back in that now in order to get the Undburden sweep, you essentially have to get down to at least 75% HP.
Consider the following scenario:
Hawlucha comes in on something it forces out
Slowbro is switched into Lucha, lucha uses sub
Lucha SDs, Slowbro breaks sub.
Lucha Subs again for Sitrus ending up at 75% (without SR), Slowbro breaks sub
Lucha fails to OHKO besides a crit and Slowbro now has a very high chance of taking it out:
0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 218-260 (72.9 - 86.9%)

There are quite a few mons who can stop a hawlucha sweep, granted at the cost of a fair deal of HP, but still quite workable. I guess I'll need to see more late game sweeps though by it where it thrives before I can come to a real conclusion though.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Except vsing Balanced teams, that SubSD set can be a fair bit of a set back in that now in order to get the Undburden sweep, you essentially have to get down to at least 75% HP.
Consider the following scenario:
Hawlucha comes in on something it forces out
Slowbro is switched into Lucha, lucha uses sub
Lucha SDs, Slowbro breaks sub.
Lucha Subs again for Sitrus ending up at 75% (without SR), Slowbro breaks sub
Lucha fails to OHKO besides a crit and Slowbro now has a very high chance of taking it out:
0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 218-260 (72.9 - 86.9%)

There are quite a few mons who can stop a hawlucha sweep, granted at the cost of a fair deal of HP, but still quite workable. I guess I'll need to see more late game sweeps though by it where it thrives before I can come to a real conclusion though.

Alternatively, Hawlucha SD's twice because it can live a Psyshock from full HP as you showed, get back to around 40-50% with Sitrus and then Slowbro risks dying with some prior damage:

+4 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 315-372 (79.9 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after some prior damage

And unless you have priority, you pretty much lost at that point because +4/+2 Hawlucha is not something to mess with.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Alternatively, Hawlucha SD's twice because it can live a Psyshock from full HP as you showed, get back to around 40-50% with Sitrus and then Slowbro risks dying with some prior damage:

+4 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 315-372 (79.9 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after some prior damage

And unless you have priority, you pretty much lost at that point because +4/+2 Hawlucha is not something to mess with.

... And now the Lucha user needs to make sure that it wins all the HJK mindgames with Protects/doubling to Ghosts and it still doesn't have a sub up against the incoming Sableye's Prankster Wisp that comes out after the Slowbro.

Speaking of which cleaning up with HJK late game gives me heart attacks as random protects and misses can screw you up. People running Protect on HJK weak defensive mons doesn't help it either, even if you can outplay that action with SD it is still a bunch of 50/50s that can choose to not reward you if you miss lol.

 

[totoTavros]

Dear god, there were 50/50's discussing the borkedness of mon's in OU and RU, I thought this place was a safe haven.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

I definitely think SubSD Hawlucha is way underrated, and probably more effective than "Lemme hax you right quick" Sky Attack. I've been running SubSitrus lately with enough Speed to outpace +Speed base 100s, and the small remnant dumped in HP. This lets you have an HP divisible by 4, allowing Sitrus to activate after subbing only twice, which kinda helps in cases where mons like CB Entei and Lucario are still in play. But honestly after getting myself shredded by SubLiechi Hawlucha, I can definitely see the practicality of it. You may be at significantly less HP when the berry is used up but you can compensate on lacking a free turn to fully set up a Swords Dance. While a +1 isn't going to always do it (of course this isn't to say you can't ever set up Swords Dance and spam Sub) it can make Hawlucha an immediate issue lategame considering it still hits like a truck.

From my experience I just can't see this thing in UU lol. I've seen a couple comparisons to Lucario, and I think to say they both sweep as consistently as eachother is a very debatable point. The whole "Have fun outspeeding me w/o priority" thing kinda works with Hawlucha harder than it does Lucario. Luke at least has defensive answers (however viable/unviable they can be) that can still check it at +2, such as Gligar, Sableye, Qwilfish, Arcanine(?), etc. and some offensive answers who can revenge it easily after setting up, such as Mega Aero (unless Bullet Punch) and Scarf Chandy.

Hawlucha on the other hand, the SubLiechi set I had mentioned earlier, any offensive checks you have are going to need priority or a real sturdy Trick Room mon like Cofagrigus to really get by it, Unburden just puts this guy in a league of its own. Sub makes it a little trickier to revenge on top of this, and if it sets up an SD AND activates its berry, the handful of mons you had in reserve not named Doublade suddenly have way more issues with it, and I learned this firsthand:

+3 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 321-378 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 321-378 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Cofagrigus: 280-330 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+3 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Cofagrigus: 280-330 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 306-361 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 306-361 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
^ Actually not much more potent, +2 is still a 2HKO. But a softened-up Slowbro that isn't outside of KO range is going to have to switch out for more Regenerator HP, meaning something else gets sacked

Few examples, and maybe I'm overreacting because from my experience Hawlucha feels like a make-it-or-break-it mon. When you do get that free turn to switch it in, the odds of successfully sweeping are incredibly high from what it feels like, for both either you or the opponent. And in most cases in Hawlucha team vs. Hawlucha team it literally comes down to who successfully sets up first. But if that still doesn't convince ya, it managed to elevate a bum like me to the 1600s, so...If nothing else let that argument stand at least lol.

tl;dr: SUB SD HAWLUCHA IS THE TRUTH

 

[slated]

So basically hawlucha doesn't have too many opportunities to setup, other than on stuff like Bliss (if you're sub and bliss uses toxic) or choice locked mons locked into a resisted move. It sets up on heracross, for one. When it does get setup, it pretty much wins with any prior damage on slowbro, hippowdon, mega amphy, doublade, or alakazam. (based god fletchinder still wins because priority.) there is no priority user in the tier that beats it without prior damage, the most any common priority user can do is ~50% from Lucario. Tbh it depends what set it is to determine what beats it. If it forces a switch and reveals sub sitrus/liechi, all of a sudden it gets up a free SD. if it is power herb and your opponent switches out to mega ampharos on the sd, you just get rocks damage on amphy. Basically most of the stuff that beats it doesn't have recovery, which means you just have to get prior damage and it wins. Basically it needs to come in after a draco from hydreigon, a heracross (although banded se still does 40% or so) krookodile locked into eq, flygon locked into eq, etc. having 2 resists and 1 immunity doesn't help it out at all. the fact that it doesn't set up very easily is the only thing keeping it from being broken in my eyes.

 

[KM]

hawlucha sets up on so much idk what you're talking about. any choice locked mon into a shit move like victini u-turn (yes this is a realistic scenario if you run a memento mon), mienshao hjk scarf even, hydra -2 dm, dugtrio, and a shit ton of other stuff. what's more, with sub sitrus (or sub liechi if you wanna get spooky) can be brought in as a revenge killer to slower shit that it threatens with hjk / sky attack (like, chandelure / nidoking / band hera / anything else you'd want to keep), sub up, and get free set up turns. it really is so easy to set up, and if you get one turn of set-up you're basically broken.

to me this is in no way a "i could go either way case". hawlucha is one of the most broken things we've suspected

 

[Jacks0n]

hawlucha sets up on so much idk what you're talking about. any choice locked mon into a shit move like victini u-turn (yes this is a realistic scenario if you run a memento mon), mienshao hjk scarf even, hydra -2 dm, dugtrio, and a shit ton of other stuff. what's more, with sub sitrus (or sub liechi if you wanna get spooky) can be brought in as a revenge killer to slower shit that it threatens with hjk / sky attack (like, chandelure / nidoking / band hera / anything else you'd want to keep), sub up, and get free set up turns. it really is so easy to set up, and if you get one turn of set-up you're basically broken.

to me this is in no way a "i could go either way case". hawlucha is one of the most broken things we've suspected

so hawlucha sets up on a mon that has been momentoed, so that requires support, two other mons (mienshao and driegon), and than the kinda rare dugtrio which can momento as well. You have given so few examples its not even funny. I think lucha is great, but I think it is actually on par with luc as a sweeper, im fine with it staying uu, though if it is banned I won't complain

 

[kokoloko]

you forgot heracross.

and krookodile.

and blissey... and a lot of other walls.

and the number of mons isn't important, whats important is how common they are. hydreigon is the #1 mon in the tier and heracross is in the top 5. every offense team uses at least one of them and defensive teams use walls. this means lucha sets up on all types of teams right off the bat, making it never dead-weight.

what important tho is that it straight up wrecks at +2, it always gets there, and honestly if you're a good player it pretty much always sweeps.

 

[President Shinra]

As long as your opponent is smart enough to realize that you have a Hawlucha, it is possible to stifle its setup opportunities and make it less useful. Of course, the Substitute set is good against things like Will-O-Wisp, but it gets rolled by things such as Infiltrator Crobat. So, IMO, Hawlucha is a very good 'mon, but is not broken (like Hydreigon, the best mon in the tier).

 

[GULLY]

I dont know how some of you can compare Lucha and Luc, then using that bad comparison to say that Lucha isnt broken. While yes both are late game sweepers and are fighting type yadada, Lucha is in a whole different league with its ability to run more bulk due to Unburden and its strong STABs. Luc while it is very threatening and acts as an offensive check to huge threats like Hydreigon, it has to choose between three moves to decide what set of pokemon it wants to beat, conversely who it wants to lose to.(Bullet Punch/Crunch/Ice Punch) On top of that its lack-bulk and sub par speed tier leave it relying on Extremespeed for anything that is fast than it. Lucha doesnt have to worry about these things. Once it gets a set up opportunity, which includes most of the ones Luc would get and more of it own, it can sweep with ease. So yeah stop with the comparisons, theyre bad and are a crutch for actual reasoning.

 

[President Shinra]

Yeah, like Talonflame in OU Hawlucha in UU has high BP moves backed up by speed, which is pretty much why it is so threatening.

 

[Patrick1088]

Yeah, like Talonflame in OU Hawlucha in UU has high BP moves backed up by speed, which is pretty much why it is so threatening.

Talonflame has flying priority which differentiates it completely by being able to spam CB Brave Birds with little ease. But, I see what you're saying about the high BP moves though...

 

[Metal Sonic]

The problem with the comparison between Lucario and Hawlucha is that:

Lucario can be destroyed offensively by Choice Scarf Chandelure.

Nothing stops Hawlucha offensively

?_?

Watch this bird get unanimous BL votes in the council voting. Just watch it :^)

 

[RowDog]

Fletch checks Hawlucha offensively. Now they are even in amount of offensive checks and your point is of "nothing stops Hawlucha offensively" becomes invalid. Oh and can I also give an honourable mention to SashZam, who checks Lucha rather well for offensive teams, as Unburden will only work once for it, and Zam will destroy it granted that it isn't behind a sub or force it out meaning it loses Unburden.
(In before people start listing other offensive lucario checks)

 

[FlareBlitz]

Would be good to hear how other council members feel since I'd like to be on the winning side of a vote for once

 

[KM]

idr think there's an argument, it's borken as fuck

it only needs one turn to set up, and it has so many fucking options to do so, especially with subsitrus. at +2, there's so little that can take it - and everything that can isn't guaranteed to kill it or it's just not that good or it's easily weakened. hawlucha is such a discouraging force against hyper offense, but it simultaneously makes hyper offense so much better, so it just ends up becoming a case of who can get their hawlucha set up first in most games.

way too overcentralizing, way too good for UU. easy choice for me

 

[kokoloko]

we started to vote on hawlucha yesterday and it quickly got enough votes to be banished back to BL. i'll post the paragraphs once the remainder of the votes are in.

there won't be another retest for a couple of weeks as i want to give the metagame time to settle after the incoming september tier shift. enjoy!

 

[Mega Ampharos]

What are some Pokemon that might come OU to UU? Just curious.

 

[kokoloko]

nothing interesting is dropping... well, togekiss is cool i guess but idk how long it'll last lol. what's interesting is what's rising: heracross, slowbro, and possibly mew. all three are metagame-defining, so it'll be interesting to see how the meta adapts to their parting.

 

[Aragorn the King]

What are some Pokemon that might come OU to UU? Just curious.

Togekiss, Quagsire, Vaporeon, Smeargle, and Diancie are all almost guaranteed to drop, while Espeon is a possibility. Scolipede is also going to drop to BL.

But yeah, koko's right; what's more interesting is what's leaving. UU without Heracross and Slowbro, and potentially Mew and Amoonguss, will be pretty interesting.