np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]

[Bouff]

Alright, I'll post some of my thoughts on Togekiss.

To be quite frank, I'll be fairly surprised if anyone votes UU on Togekiss. It, as I'm sure you're aware of, has a massive amount of sets it can pull off, and it doesn't really falter in any role you choose it; it's a great defogger for more defensively oriented teams, as its insane defensive typing lets it switch into a huge portion of the offensive tier (see the mons listed above), has reliable recovery, and can even serve as a cleric while filling in all these roles. It has a good portion of offensive sets, so I'll list them one by one. Nasty Plot + 3 Attacks (see the set aim posted above) lets Togekiss plow through a good amount of checks to other sets, such as Mega Aggron, Empoleon, etc., can set up with little trouble thanks to the few offensive checks it has (who all get slammed by Duggy if they're not running Scarf) and serves as a deadly win condition on pretty much any team archetype. Nasty Plot Roost does what regular NP does, except it exchanges coverage for recovery, which isn't too bad since, as mentioned before, Dugtrio takes care of a good portion of Toge's offensive checks, and lets Togekiss heal itself should it get worn down by SR damage. NastyPass (there are a few variants of this set, but they all aim to do the same thing) is definitely one of the more dangerous ones, as it can soft pass into Dugtrio should you try to switch in an answer to Toge, and pass Nasty Plot boosts to stuff like Hydreigon or Mega Alakazam, which is just icing on the cake. Nasty Plot Heal Bell....do i even need to say anything? It just flat out 6-0's stall unless you bring Mega Aerodactyl, no questions asked.

Yes, it has a fair amount of answers depending on the set, namely Jirachi, Raikou, Nidoking, Mega Aggron, Empoleon, Mega Aerodactyl, Crobat, etc. , but honestly, unless the former two are Scarfed, all you need to do to take care of them is slap on CB Dugtrio and a Flying-type check, like Mega Ampharos, and you're basically set. To make things short, it can fit on virtually any team, excels at every role it performs, and basically can eliminate an entire playstyle if used right. BL for me.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

toge can't get a free switch? what?

toge switches safely in to some of the best mons in the tier right now such as hydreigon, krook, mienshao, machamp, haxorus, etc. and that's just offensive mons

4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 205-242 (65.9 - 77.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Krookodile Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 276-325 (88.7 - 104.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 289-341 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 248-294 (79.7 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 283-335 (90.9 - 107.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Lolno.

 

[Schpoonman]

Every single one of those calcs is biased as all hell, unrealistic, or both, except for Mienshao. Iron Tail on Hydreigon is extremely uncommon, as is Life Orb on Krookodile, the Machamp user has to predict Togekiss' entry (giving Togekiss the advantage) or else it simply loses, and Haxorus is not a common-enough threat in the metagame to warrant consideration, much less when Poison Jab simply isn't a good option on it. Simply put, you've given the offenders the best case scenario while saddling Togekiss with the worst case.

Hydreigon will very rarely if ever carry Iron Tail, and even then only on the mixed set, far and away Hydreigon's less common set. Togekiss completely bends over the Scarf set, where Hydreigon can only U-turn out on the switch.

Krookodile does carry Stone Edge somewhat frequently, but it's either on the Scarf set where it's lacking in power or on the Band set where it doesn't tend to run 252+ Speed so Togekiss outspeeding it is much more likely, if we're still assuming 252 Speed Togekiss given the lack of bulk in your calc. On top of that, Krookodile just doesn't carry Life Orb. It's not fast enough like Infernape or Mienshao to get away with it considering its lack of recovery.

If Machamp doesn't predict the Togekiss switch, it loses 1-on-1, simple as that. You either get lucky using Stone Edge or Heavy Slam or you lose Machamp/have to bring something else in to deal with Togekiss. As we all know, prediction is in favor of the suspect.

I hate to bust out usage as an argument, but that's Haxorus' biggest and most relevant sticking point. Poison Jab is a moderately better option since Klefki left, but it's still very suboptimal given Haxorus' 4MSS. Other than that, and this is just something I disagree with namehtmas on, Haxorus is not a Pokemon to be worried about. There are more dangerous Dragons and more dangerous physical attackers that players are worried about, and they will invariably cover Haxorus when covering those other threats.

Failing all of the above, every one of these Pokemon you've listed, shit that supposedly bends Togekiss over on the switch, loses to Scarf Togekiss 1-on-1, where it Air Slashes or Dazzling Gleams them into the dirt.

 

[silenced]

Honestly the main reason I would like togekiss to stay in the tier is simply because of the absolute disgusting bias against any defensive mon that is capable of checking a portion of S and A ranked threats. This isn't even close to things like chansey who well and truly could wall the metagame to hell and back. If you really want to moan about the bulk and typing of togekiss, I'd be more concerned about utilising the nastypass strategy that celebi uses, since it has the bulk, typing and meh speed for it (That would be my main concern about it).

I mean, this shit happens in just about every suspect test we have. When something offensive comes along, people are fighting tooth and nail to justify the lack of brokeness of a pokemon, but oh no, god forbid a pokemon comes along that stops me spamming HJK or dark pulse from mienshao or hydreigon respectively.

Adapting to the meta works both ways. Consider for a moment mega-houndoom, a pokemon who was Top dog or close to it at one point. Now look where it ended up; struggling to stay UU by usage. The metagame changes and becomes less kind to some pokemon over time as we look for new ways to counter trends or set our own, while increasing the fortunes of others. For all the struggle that will come to krook, machamp, hydreigon, and mienshao, the fortunes of Nidoqueen/King, Roserade, Rotom-H and raikou rise in exchange. You absolutely CANNOT expect a metagame to stay in the same favourable state for one group of pokemon and screw the rest in exchange. I don't mean we should deliberately go and tinker with the metagame to achieve this, but when we suspect test stuff, can we please actually think about this and not just be in bias against this?

UU All Day has already pointed out something quite important and that is all the threats togekiss can achieve absolutely cannot be achieved in the same set. The only user who has posted even a half decent argument is Rowdog (because nasty plot is a major threat, and probably the most potentially broken aspect), and perhaps anyone who mentioned the duggy + toge combo. In regards to the latter, I'd honestly prefer dugtrio gone as it basically achieves the same principles as shadow tag does in removing common hard checks to a pokemon that can otherwise be dealt with, without having to go to extreme lengths (and if you think that's bad, I would reckon you can get similar levels of abuse by combining SD lucario (with bullet punch) with dugtrio and end up with the same result of minimal checks left). Even despite this, you can still block such a combo with Rotom-H, Mega-Aero, or even SD toxicroak. I really do not like how everyone seems hell bent on glossing over mons that can very much legitimately threaten out togekiss because they are too busy crying foul over their beloved fast sweepers being weak to bulky mons who can paralyse, or because it blocks attacking pokemon that frankly require minimal brain cells to use (especially meinshao and hydreigon).

Despite the low usage of mons like haxorus, toxicroak, rotom-H etc. I'll rehash my argument again. One is that low usage does not always indicate a pokemon is inferior as Lord of Bays leads towards. Haxorus is still very much a threat despite its short comings, but its not as easy to threaten with as say, hydreigon. If something is potentially added, then the fortunes of the two dragons change. Is it really that bad if haxorus suddenly becomes better while hydreigon becomes worse because of one pokemon? Looking at that question in isolation, the answer is no unless the pokemon added is indeed broken (which I will be fair, togekiss is very much capable of, although not for the majority of reasons listed).

Tl;Dr

Togekiss improves the skill of the metagame by forcing players to consider more carefully their choice of coverage move as opposed to "click and kill"
Togekiss can still be broken with the appropriate support, though the support itself could also be looked at.
The usage of pokemon in regards to the impact that togekiss could potentially have is currently being argued very poorly.
The metagame should not remain static if there are significant numbers of pokemon being used in UU that can check a suspect while having viable use outside of checking said suspect.

Might add more later, but this will do for now. Oh and despite my rambling, defensively togekiss is fine for UU, but as an offensive support, I'm a lot more on the fence about it.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

Can we just act like Togekiss doesn't have Serene Grace and never ever use that ability? That way it would still be a good 'mon, just without the insane frustration of being an even more obnoxious(although slower) Jirachi.

Really, the biggest problem with Kiss is just that: it's an even more annoying Jirachi. Better typing in the meta allows it to come in on the threats even ScarfRachi may hesitate against, while having the ability to boost its 60% flinch move further. Even has the ability to work as a serious defensive defogger, while still running Paraflinch.

I will say this, though: CritKiss is hilariously fun. Don't care if viable or not, critting 9/10 times is just great.

 

[kokoloko]

not quite.

see my stance on this matter is that togekiss has two things that jirachi can only dream about: recovery in the form of roost and, more importantly, the ability to boost the power of its flinching move (and the rest of them, really) in nasty plot. without both of those things, togekiss would be kinda mediocre and with only one of them, it would be just good. as it stands however, it's kind of retardedly broken.

 

[Nas]

Jirachi has Wish and Power-Up Punch yo

 

[Ernesto]

Not to mention STAB Meteor Mash. Once again (as with Gunk Shot Croaker and Heavy Slam Machamp), koko proves his lack of Pokemon knowledge :o

 

[Kink]

I have to agree with what I perceive to be a BL decision. Kiss deals with too many threats. Its typing and recovery with extremely good natural bulk gives it the unique ability of setting up on almost all stall mons and sweeping; this trait alone (it has many more [set versatility, ev distribution versatility, movepool]) is enough to warrant BL imo.

 

[slated]

I don't think the vote will be unanimous, since many people could list off the many checks kiss has, but the reality is you can't counter kiss or really check it well, since it has moved to get around everything. If someone is using mega amph as their kiss check you can use dazzling gleam. Mega Aero loses to flinches from the scarf set. Rotom heat can lose to roosting off damage and boosted hits wear it down. On and on. Togekiss can get around its supposed checks and counters easier than almost any mon we have ever had in uu.

 

[Nas]

Last time I checked Togekiss can't use all of its available sets in one game lol. And Scarfkiss can't even outrun Jolly Mega Aero...

"Rotom heat can lose to roosting off damage and boosted hits wear it down." Yeah, when Rotom-H is faster and immune to Thunder Wave, which means the only way you're getting your boosted (and resisted) hits off is by taking a Thunderbolt first. Now tell me, where in that situation do you Roost off the damage?

 

[Kink]

Last time I checked Togekiss can't use all of its available sets in one game lol. And Scarfkiss can't even outrun Jolly Mega Aero...

"Rotom heat can lose to roosting off damage and boosted hits wear it down." Yeah, when Rotom-H is faster and immune to Thunder Wave, which means the only way you're getting your boosted (and resisted) hits off is by taking a Thunderbolt first. Now tell me, where in that situation do you Roost off the damage?

the example was loose, but I think the premise has merit, which was: Kiss is really good, a little too good.

 

[Schpoonman]

I think you guys are missingdeliberately misinterpreting what Koko said. Power-Up Punch and Meteor Mash are really really really shitty options for boosting attack. Mega Mom made good use of Power-Up Punch because it was a Swords Dance + damage due to Parental Bond as well as a few other factors like better Attack, great coverage in only a few moves, etc. Using Meteor Mash as an option to boost attack is just... Absurd, especially when you're looking to abuse Iron Head's flinch chance. Less-than-perfect accuracy (do I need to explain this? Fine, I will. Imagine Lucario's Swords Dance failed 10% of the time. He just stands there looking stupid), having a worse-than-even chance to boost only one stage, AND doubling up on Steel's horrible coverage in UU.

Wish just exasperates Jirachi's 4MSS, since you mostly need Protect in order to really effectively heal yourself with it. Now, trying to wrap the two above together to fit what Togekiss can do in NP/Roost/Air Slash/filler, you get either Wish/Protect/Meteor Mash/Iron Head, where everyone and their mother doesn't give two shits about what you have to say, or you drop Meteor Mash for Power-Up Punch, where now JUST everyone's mother doesn't give two shits what you have to say. I think we can all agree that Togekiss has the better boosting flincher set. Or that Jirachi's set just straight-up isn't viable and comparisons between the two are horribly flawed.

Or maybe you were being sarcastic the entire time and I got suckered. I'm not deleting what I've written at this point. So, nyah.

Silenced starts an excellent point in comparing it to Chansey in terms of defensive prowess, but he missed the mark when he stopped there. Chansey just stood there and didn't take damage. Togekiss actively fucks your team up through flinch hax and paralysis, while for the most part not taking damage. Chansey could use Thunder Wave, but it was still immensely passive and more relied on Toxic to help it stall, whereas Togekiss is anything but passive. I think that's the best counterpoint to what is otherwise a brilliant argument. Togekiss almost always brings its offense with its defense, you can't separate the two, not to the point where Togekiss isn't broken.

 

[Patrick1088]

Ive been running BP Toge, Duggy and Trick Scarf Rachi and it just beats most teams. From what ive seen, if 2 players have Toge ( or toge vs. Rachi), it comes down to who can para the opponent first. This type of playing is just stupid and completely overcentralizes the meta.

kokoloko how much longer will this retest last you think?

 

[glock in my toyota]

Honestly, the fact of the matter with Togekiss is that it runs too many sets that all work well (Paraflinch, NP, Defog, WishPass, etc.) and its checks are far too small a group for the tier to handle. M-Aero is probably the safest check to Toge, as Scarf Togekiss fails to outrun 252+ Speed M-Aero. But even with this in mind, Toge can easily be paired with another defensive partner, i.e. Sub-Toxic Jirachi, and have near perfect synergy with one another. (There are only 2 types that hit Jirachi super-effectively that aren't either resisted or uneffective against Togekiss, Fire and Ghost.) This core is quite literally disgusting, and takes a fair deal of skill out of the meta. As far as Toge alone goes, the sheer power of all of its sets makes this thing nearly impossible to beat without first letting it do whatever the set is meant to do. What I mean by this is, to beat Toge, you first have to scout it's set. There aren't any catch-all counters to any Togekiss, but tbh the closest thing is Rotom-Heat. @_@ BAN PLS.

 

[kokoloko]

togekiss has accrued enough votes to go back to BL, so we'll be moving on to the next test: zygarde. Calloflochie will be updating the records thread with reasoning paragraphs later today.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

I remember when Zygarde was dominating any non-Tspikes and stall/balanced team.

SubCoil Specially Defensive Set is the set I am referring to. I think every other set is just subpar.

Before, I think Zygarde was actually less manageable because I think we had less dragons, the best fairy we have (still have imo) is Florges, and fire spam was a lot more prevelant (victini, darm, etc).

With the meta more offensively based, I think Zygarde will actually be balanced. Just hear me out here, we shouldn't just ban things from what we remember, we should ban things because they are broken. Just look at how the Mega-zam votes changed. That should be an indication that the meta for UU has become more fast paced. With Haxarous, Hydregion, and even Infiltrator Noivern, Zygarde will have a tough time setting up. Sure, it has a fast phasing move (speed + dtail); however, with things like Mega-blastoise becoming super popular, I think Zygarde will be easily handled.

The probably is Zygarde initially getting that sub up. It kind of reminds me of SubCm Raikou of last gen; however, this has fewer counters since it has a phasing move. It initially lacks a lot of sweeping power, so it must get boosts. The combination of Taunt, strong hitters like Lucario, faster more offensive mons (think: Specs PZ, Mega-blastoise, Mega Zam, and even Mega Aero with Aerial Ace/Ice Fang), I think it should be manageable. This mon would definitely be a benefit to most balanced or stall teams, something I think we need ever since Mew, Slowbro, and Victini were gone. It is sort of a win condition for those type of teams. Bulky enough to sweep weakened teams, like a Dragon Crocune.

imo

 

[DiscoDucky]

pokemonisfun come back Kokoloko unbanned your favorite mon

Anyway, I'm just slightly disappointed we just banned Zygarde's best counter. Anyway, going to call a prediction of a considerable drop in Jirachi usage (?)

 

[Stef0w]

YES, Ive been excited for this suspect ever since I started UU, and I cant wait to get my hands on it. This thing has a really colorful movepool, with really uncommon moves like Glare for parascuffling, and an interesting boosting move in Coil.


It might be tough, since it can be a massive pain with all that bulk/easiness of setup.


HYPE!!!!!

 

[Sleepless]

yay, Noivern will become a thing. Most Zygarde don't carry Espeed (by damagecalc sets) but even +1 coil LO Adamant won't ko after rocks :
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 187-221 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[DiscoDucky]

yay, Noivern will become a thing. Most Zygarde don't carry Espeed (by damagecalc sets) but even +1 coil LO Adamant won't ko after rocks :
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 187-221 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Dragon Dance Zygarde outspeeds and KOs with something that's not Extremespeed.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

I've been using it for a little, and tbh, it sets up on many things, but there are many mons that deter it from doing any good work. Nidoqueen/king for example destroy the coil set with SF LO Ice Beam. Things like Kyurem, fast Mega Blastoise, Hydregion, Haxarous are all issues I see, and these are all good mons. It isn't like running golurk to counter terrakion in gen 5, zygarde has a good amount of checks/counters. The issue is letting it get more than 1 coil, then you are probably in trouble.

But compare that to SD/NP Luc, +1 or +2 Suicine. Both have very specific counters. For Luc, it depends on its coverage, Ice Punch/Crunch/EQ, will be walled by Chandelure/Gligar. Suicine is walled by water absorb mons, mega amp, and basically all grass types.

Specially Defensive Zygarde is really predictable. It has to run coil, and it has to run Dtail + EQ. DD sets tbh are outclassed by both haxarous and luc. Haxarous can do SD or DD, and has better speed to power ratio, and SD luc can utilize better priority with respectable typing.

Zygarde deters fire spam like dugtrio deters electric types from spamming STAB moves.

So far, I am not seeing anything completely broken about it. Tho I wish Togekiss were in the tier so it would be the ultimate counter to it :[

 

[GULLY]

This all ways happens when a suspect is introduced, it is said to not be broken by the first few until people start getting back into the swing of building properly with it. Zygarde (sub coil) has the ability to shit on pretty much all team archetypes, thats not to be said about our last victim, given one particular set. Zygarde has no chance of staying imo, there is nothing that both normally viable and can take its stabs with relative ease. Once behind a sub you have to result to using crazy niches mons like Specs Infiltrator Chandy with hp ice to venge or Noivern w/ Draco. And that isn't an acceptable way of dealing with a threat, 9/10 when see some thing can actually venge it behind sub such as the pokes I listed, they'd switch. Back to square 1. Right now I am only seeing crazy smart playing and offensive pressure keeping this from reeking havoc on most team types.

( tfw when I don't mention tspikes when i'm using them atm to check garde)

tspikes also limits its sweep =)

 

[UU ALL DAY]

yeah, I already said tspikes ruin zygarde. Pairing it up with roserade is pretty good.

 

[Ranger Mike]

Ok honestly if you are considering that zygarde is broken if it boosts like 3+ times then who's fauly really is this, it is obviously the players because the same can be said about literally any setup sweeper. Like luc will sweep nearly every team if it gets to +6 same with things like tyrantrum (this thing sucks right?). Zygarde may have the great typing bar the ice weakness and that may make it broken but if something can sweep unprepared teams so can things like hitmonlee. Zygarde may be broken but just because it can kill a bunch of shit after getting up like 3+ boosts doesn't really mean anything cause the same can be said for nearly any sweeper. Anyways, I, personally am leaning towards do not ban but am really on the fence about this. I'll probably report back after having played a few more games.