NU Analyses Discussion Thread

DTC

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#26
DTC, about tangela, you actually have to choose between synthesis and regenerator, they are not allowed together on the same set sadly :(, i feel tangela NEEDS regenerator to be effective and that synthesis is not worth it 99% of the time

but i second the above changes otherwise
Oh man, I never realized that! My apologies. I guess the Synthesis Tangela part should just be removed altogether from the Checks and Counters section of Slaking.
 
#27
Ctrl+F "Giga Drain" on Victreebel's analysis yields no result anywhere on the page. I think Giga Drain deserves a slash next to (or before) Solarbeam on the Special Growth set or at least AC mention. The recovered health has been way more useful to me then the power Solarbeam provides, and has aloud me to sweep later on in the game. (It also works outside of sun which has been useful too)
 

jake

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#28
I believe Rock Blast deserves a mention on Garbodor, if not in AC then at least in OO. I have used it extensively and found myself rarely using Body Slam, whilst Rock Blast allows him to stop Pokemon such as SubNP Jynx in their tracks. It also provides a much more accurate alternative to Gunk Shot for things like Swellow and Cryogonal.
Done.

Hey, I have a few suggestions for 3 of the current analyses in NU.

Duosion: Thunder should be mentioned in the AC of the first set, or at least OO. Thunder is a lot stronger than HP Fighting and allows you to get neutral coverage on both Dark and Psychic-types at the same time. It also has a 30% chance of paralysis, and a Pokemon needs about 400 Speed or more to outspeed Duosion after they're paralyzed. Only problem is the terrible accuracy, but Duosion can afford the occasional miss.

Slaking: Retaliate should be moved to the last slot. Yeah, you will only use this after something dies, however, that extra power is really useful for threats such as Tangela and Weezing. The moves currently in the last slot, Focus Punch and Pursuit, are moves you'd rarely ever use on Slaking. Focus Punch is nice for hitting Regirock, but you still don't OHKO 252 HP Regirock. There are barely any Ghost-types in NU to hit with Pursuit, and you'd usually want to just hit the switch-in hard, however Pursuit does have its moments where it is useful as it can still trap weakened Pokemon... although if you have a weakened Pokemon you'd probably just want to sac it to Slaking. Pursuit could maybe get a slash in with Retaliate.

The checks and counters section in Slaking could use some work too. 1) it should probably mention Armaldo. Armaldo resists Slaking's STAB and also doesn't take that much from Earthquake. 2) It mentions Tangela healing with Synthesis -- the Tangela analysis doesn't even list Synthesis. (However, it should; it's still not one of the best options you can run on Tangela, though.) 3) Maybe have a mention of saccing something to Slaking and then abusing its Traunt turn by setting-up?

Tangela: Synthesis in OO? It's not the best option, as Tangela already has Regenerator, but it makes it even harder to kill and with Synthesis it doesn't have to switch-out every time it's at low health.
Did those, sans Synthesis.

Oh man, I never realized that! My apologies. I guess the Synthesis Tangela part should just be removed altogether from the Checks and Counters section of Slaking.
Changed that mention to Regenerator.

Ctrl+F "Giga Drain" on Victreebel's analysis yields no result anywhere on the page. I think Giga Drain deserves a slash next to (or before) Solarbeam on the Special Growth set or at least AC mention. The recovered health has been way more useful to me then the power Solarbeam provides, and has aloud me to sweep later on in the game. (It also works outside of sun which has been useful too)
Added into AC.

If anyone else has some small changes they need to make to an analysis, go ahead and post here!
 
#29
Speaking of Garbodor, what was wrong with its old, optimistic analysis? I don't read the strategy dex to hear how hard something sucks and that i'd be stupid to use it in any tier I want. I just want to know the best things it can do. Even if that isn't much, is "MAN WHAT A PIECE OF CRAP" type commentary necessary? Anything can fit on *some* team.
 

erisia

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#30
Speaking of Garbodor, what was wrong with its old, optimistic analysis? I don't read the strategy dex to hear how hard something sucks and that i'd be stupid to use it in any tier I want. I just want to know the best things it can do. Even if that isn't much, is "MAN WHAT A PIECE OF CRAP" type commentary necessary? Anything can fit on *some* team.
Agreed. Reading the analysis actually infuriated me a little... partly because of its attitude, and partly because it just gets a lot of stuff wrong. Poison is a pretty good mono-typing in NU because it stops most Fighting types cold, deals with Grass types reasonably well, and STAB Gunk Shot is nothing to laugh it with its excellent power and neutral coverage. Garbodor also has pretty damn good physical bulk with max investment, Adamant Torterra comes nowhere near to OHKOing it with Earthquake without a Life Orb and has a good chance to fail even with one, while Regirock can't even 2HKO with Earthquake. Hell, it even takes special attacks well, surviving LO Magmortar's Fire Blast.

Frankly, I feel like updating it solely to re-write it. We shouldn't have pretentious stuff like that on-site, especially when it's badmouthing the best Toxic Spiker in the tier (aside from Omanyte, of course)
 
#31
Articles for NU pokemon should be written from the perspective that NU is just another tier, which it is. Some seem to be painting it as a shameful dumping ground nobody wants to play.
 

marilli

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#32
For Shelgon, I feel that DD RestTalk set is the better set of the two. Not only does it maintain similar physical bulk, it can now get rid of status + pose an offensive threat. Even with no investment attack, it can rip through the tier after some boosts (and those defensive enough are often setup bait) bar Tangela + Quagsire. Wish+Protect has really small wishes, so that's not much of a plus, either. Toxic hits Tangela and Quagsire, but really the defensive set doesn't even necessarily draw them out, as uninvested Dragon Claw is kind of silly.

Also, I know it has no technical bearing on the issue, but UU and RU both has DD RestTalk over the defensive wish set.

I know there's a lot of updates going on, but I feel that this is just a minor issue that doesn't really deserve a full revamp (and also I don't like how it says Probopass beats DD RestTalk when the only thing it does is give it an automatic +6 +6 setup and it can just start outraging without lock-in, but that's easily fixed.)
 
#33
Speaking of Shelgon, its analysis mentions that it will never beat Bastidon or Probopass which isn't true at all. Probopass can't do a damn thing (unless it gets really, really lucky with earth power special defense drops) to Shelgon while Shelgon sets up to +6 and 2HKOs it. Bastidon fares better because of roar but in a 1v1 situation Shelgon will win because Bastiodon can't directly harm it at all.
 

Style_Dota

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#34
For Muk, since there is an analysis already on site, can I base the framework around that? Or rwould you like me to start from scratch?
 

jake

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#35
For Muk, since there is an analysis already on site, can I base the framework around that? Or rwould you like me to start from scratch?
The idea of doing analyses now is that they're being updated; ideally, you will have similar sets but anything outdated or outclassed will be removed, and any new, good sets will be added. If you want, I can go through and point out a few things later but yeah, it should be focusing on updating Muk to this metagame's standards.

As far as Shelgon goes, I'll look into that later today.
 
#36
For Castform's entry, shouldn't Thunder be slashed over Thunderbolt, because it hits a lot harder than the latter, and in rain, it has perfect accuracy?

Also, I think the items Damp Rock and Heat Rock should be mentioned as other options.

[Oh, and yes, I know that Castform's entry is joke-ish in nature; I just see some room for improvement... and I apologise if this means that changing it isn't an option, therefore wasting your time.]
 
#37
Personally, I think sawk should use Poison Jab instead of Toxic cause if Stealth Rocks are up, it would break sturdy and I don't like to switch out most of the time. :O
 

DTC

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#38
Personally, I think sawk should use Poison Jab instead of Toxic cause if Stealth Rocks are up, it would break sturdy and I don't like to switch out most of the time. :O
How would using Toxic break Sturdy and Poison Jab not? Your reasoning is a bit confusing. Anyways, Poison Jab is also an awful move to spam so you'll end up switching out most of the time anyways. All Poison Jab really hits is Exeggutor while Toxic hits a bunch of more Pokemon that Sawk can't do much damage to.

Poison Jab is also outclassed by Sawk's new tutor move, Ice Punch. Ice Punch allows Sawk to hit Amoonguss, Vileplume, Exeggutor, Golurk, and a few other Pokemon harder than any of Close Combat / EQ / Stone Edge.
 
#39
There's a mistake in Sneasel's NU analysis Other Options.
X-Scissor hits Psychic-types harder than Bite does
Bite has 180 bp vs Psychics while X-Scissor has 160 factoring in type effectiveness and STAB.
If anything, X-Scissor does MUCH less than Bite vs Natu and Swoobat, and only hits Exeggutor harder.
 
#40
Golbat's analysis has a minor error:

Golbat can take a page out of Crobat's book, by investing heavily into Speed and Attack, it can use a Choice Band set with Brave Bird, U-turn, Cross Poison, and Pursuit.
Cross Poison is surprisingly not a move that Golbat ever learns (however, Crobat does). I'm sure nobody will ever really try to use a physically attacking Golbat, but if somebody wanted to they'd be disappointed to find one of its best-looking moves to be illegal.
 
#43
Other Options

Samurott's incredibly shallow movepool leaves him with very few other options, but there are a couple of things that could be considered.
Checks and Counters

Fantastic coverage, good STAB, and the ability to go either physical or special, makes Samurott impossible to straight up counter.
Something doesn't feel right.
 

Django

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#44
Well, small (read: shallow) movepool does not necessarily imply bad coverage. Something can have perfect coverage with 2 moves, and still have a bad movepool. In Samurotts case, it gets all the coverage it needs with just 2 moves, and can get almost perfect coverage with 3 moves on a special set. However, outside these options it has basically nothing, leading to the shallow movepool comment. I think it makes sense, but it could probably be worded slightly better.
 

Yonko7

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#45
I don't understand why Watchog is a 'joke' Pokemon, sure he isn't too good, but it should at least be given a normal analysis. Watchog could be a decent stall breaker with Super Fang, Hypnosis, Mean Look, Baton Pass, and other helpful moves (I'm at work atm and not looking at the other moves).
 

jake

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#46
It has generally awful stats and there's no real reason to use it on a semi-competitive team aside from troll factor. It has no strong niche and isn't even worth your time when debating whether or not to even waste a team slot on it. Every Pokemon on the 'joke' list has a usable set or two or even a possible niche all to its own, but there's still no reason anyone should ever use it and that's why we give them joke analyses. I can't think of a single Pokemon outside of that list that I'd rather use Watchog instead of.
 

Style_Dota

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#47
Sap Sipper Defensive Miltank? I'm not sure how many QC members have seen this thing, but it's pretty freaking awesome in the metagame right now (fuck Cincinno / Ammonguss)

This is the set I would use:

Miltank w/ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
-Body Slam
-Earthquake / Toxic
-Milk Drink
-Heal Bell

Given the plethora of Ammonguss and Cincinno right now, this is pretty much one of the best counters to both. Tail Slap fails to 2HKO, and if Cincinno goes for Bullet Seed, then it pretty much gives Miltank +5 attack, which means it's going to fuck something over with either Body Slam or Earthquake. I chose Earthquake in the second slot for neutral coverage, but Toxic works too.

Thoughts?
 

MMF

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#48
I was almost positive that Bullet Seed only gives Sap Sipper users +1 Attack and not +5. Can anyone confirm this?

Other than that I've played against this set quite a bit and its annoying as all hell. Its also suprisingly bulky and tanked hits that I didn't think it could tank. What does everyone else think?

Edit: Ah so it is just one. Well even so, a boost is a boost. Even at +1 Miltank still hits decently hard for a bulkier set.
 
#50
Just wondering, but shouldn't Klang be in the NU secion now instead of the NFE section? If it should be in the NFE section, could someone kindly give an explanation why? Thanks.