NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)

[Acosta]

Just pointing this out:

Meganium (252 SpA/252 Spe) Timid LO Leaf Storm vs standard Tank Regirock (from UU)= 89%-105.5% clean OHKO with SR up.

the same Meganium Leaf Storm vs Special Tank Slowking= 78.1%-92.2% not ideal, but it's still a good OHKO chance with SR and Spikes. At worst, it's a 2HKO

She can run a special set with Hidden Power (Fire) and Synthesis and still KO what she needs to. The SD set is clearly her best option, but this works well under sunlight (2HKO's most Vileplume and has double Synthesis recovery), which is necessary to have in order to get rid of the Sandstorm that inevitably will come with Regirock.

That's just an idea though. I'm not really an expert in this.

Hey folks, long time lurker, first time poster. :)

As an alternative to this, what about Bellossom? It's slightly less bulky than Meganium (75/85/100 vs. 80/100/100) and is quite a bit slower (50 vs. 80) but it's also slightly stronger and has access to Sludge Bomb and Sleep Powder to close the gap somewhat. (Unlike Vileplume, it does learn Leaf Storm.) The purposed Sunny Day set would also work for Bellossom, as it has Chlorophyll to keep up with Vileplume.

Since Bellossom is so slow, I went ahead and used Modest. One Speed EV is enough to outspeed Vileplume and Regirock without any speed investment.

Modest LO Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP/220 SpD Careful Regirock: 102.75% - 121.98%
Modest LO Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP/200 SpD Calm Slowking: 90.36% - 107.11%
Modest LO Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP/252 SpD Calm Vileplume: 35.88% - 42.37%

There's also Victreebel, but it might be a bit too frail for this.

 

[Colonel Darren]

Hey folks, long time lurker, first time poster. :)

As an alternative to this, what about Bellossom? It's slightly less bulky than Meganium (75/85/100 vs. 80/100/100) and is quite a bit slower (50 vs. 80) but it's also slightly stronger and has access to Sludge Bomb and Sleep Powder to close the gap somewhat. (Unlike Vileplume, it does learn Leaf Storm.) The purposed Sunny Day set would also work for Bellossom, as it has Chlorophyll to keep up with Vileplume.

Since Bellossom is so slow, I went ahead and used Modest. One Speed EV is enough to outspeed Vileplume and Regirock without any speed investment.

Modest LO Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP/220 SpD Careful Regirock: 102.75% - 121.98%
Modest LO Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP/200 SpD Calm Slowking: 90.36% - 107.11%
Modest LO Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP/252 SpD Calm Vileplume: 35.88% - 42.37%

There's also Victreebel, but it might be a bit too frail for this.

I rather like this, but Sludge Bomb's power seems quite disturbing to me against Vileplume. I'd much rather use a Hidden Power unless you can prove that Vileplume can't cripple you with an attack of it's own via calc. I would suggest using Vileplume as sleep fodder?

Oh, and a VERY good first post.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

Good first post, but Bellossom isn't doing anything to Vileplume. It'll just Synthesis and Sludge Bomb you to death.
I'm wagering on a LO Swords Dance Meganium to be pretty good now. With SR, Seed Bomb will 2HKO Drifblim, and Return always 2HKOs Vileplume, so if it dares to heal you just Swords Dance again.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Again - as an offensive Grass-type I would much rather use Cacturne or Victreebel. Cacturne / Shiftry are much better when SDing due to having (STAB!) Sucker Punch.

 

[Colonel Darren]

Again - as an offensive Grass-type I would much rather use Cacturne or Victreebel. Cacturne / Shiftry are much better when SDing due to having (STAB!) Sucker Punch.

Hrm. Using a likely Sandstorm that Regirock would be hiding behind against him with Cacturne. I rather like it. Though I lean more on Shiftry if nothing but just being better if it can get the Sun up. :P

 

[Envoy.of.Water]

Again - as an offensive Grass-type I would much rather use Cacturne or Victreebel. Cacturne / Shiftry are much better when SDing due to having (STAB!) Sucker Punch.

Problem is that they have trouble switching in because of their frailty. Special Wall Slowking does 76.2%-90.4% to 4 Sp. Def Cacturne and UU Tank Regirock does 60.1%-70.8% with Stone Edge (a clean 2HKO), not to mention the ability to paralyze it on the switch with Thunder Wave.

Similarly, Shiftry takes 52.6%-62% from that same Regirock (another 2HKO) and Slowking does 66.7%-79.1% with Ice Beam, another 2HKO at best (if it predicts the Swords Dance), and at worst, makes it fodder for a teammate, like Skuntank (who resists both it's STABS) or something.

Conversely, Meganium only takes 37.2%-44.2% from Tank Regirock Stone Edge and 47.8%-56.5% from Special Wall Slowking Ice Beam (which she's fast enough to recover with Synthesis.) She has a noticeably easier time switching in. Furthermore, she can alleviate status (T-Wave) with Aromatherapy and still 1-2HKO all she needs to, including Vileplume. She can't do this all with one set, of course, but she has better bulk and arguably more options than the other two, because really, her SD set is only needed to KO Regikingplume, so all she needs are SD, Seed Bomb and Return. This leaves an empty space for filler (which can be used in the form of EQ, Synthesis or Aromatherapy).

 

[Ice-eyes]

Yes, Cacturne is fragile. However, the standard set will probably be Surf / Psychic / T-Wave / Slack Off - being walled by Poliwrath would suck - and that set can't touch Cacturne, especially if you used a Poliwrath to lure it in (thus reducing the possibility of Thunder Wave). Cacturne gets a STAB Priority move which is ridiculously powerful, whereas Meganium is going to get outsped and killed by the likes of Typhlosion, Magmortar and Haunter (as well as Scarfers).

 

[Colonel Darren]

Yes, Cacturne is fragile. However, the standard set will probably be Surf / Psychic / T-Wave / Slack Off

I am starting to have doubts about at least that bit. I'm almost sure that Surf may not be the most commonly used move on Slowking. I'm much more expecting Ice Beam or Flamethrower instead as a way of fending off potential checks.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Losing to Poliwrath is REALLY bad though. Do you want to hit your own checks or beat stuff you're supposed to check? Surf + Psychic is actually very good coverage - especially compared to Surf + Ice Beam.

 

[blasphemy1]

Losing to Poliwrath is REALLY bad though. Do you want to hit your own checks or beat stuff you're supposed to check? Surf + Psychic is actually very good coverage - especially compared to Surf + Ice Beam.

He's saying -Surf, + Flamethrower/Ice Beam. So maybe Psychic + Flamethrower + Thunder Wave + Slack Off... I think.

 

[Colonel Darren]

He's saying -Surf, + Flamethrower/Ice Beam. So maybe Psychic + Flamethrower + Thunder Wave + Slack Off... I think.

Exactly. Besides, Fire and Psychic is decent coverage in NU. I think the only Poke that doesn't take some form of at least neutral damage would be Probopass.

...And what the fuck's a Probopass going to do in return to Slowking? :P

 

[Ice-eyes]

Probopass doesn't resist Fire. Slowking resists Fire + Psychic, so does Sharpedo etc.

 

[Acosta]

I rather like this, but Sludge Bomb's power seems quite disturbing to me against Vileplume. I'd much rather use a Hidden Power unless you can prove that Vileplume can't cripple you with an attack of it's own via calc. I would suggest using Vileplume as sleep fodder?

Oh, and a VERY good first post.

Unfortunately Vileplume's Sludge Bomb does 54.80% - 64.97% to 252/0 Modest Bellossom. I also think I messed up the first calc, Bellossom's Sludge Bomb is only doing 24.01% - 28.25% back.

Even a HP Ice only does 37.29% - 44.07% to it. You pretty much have to depend on Sleep Powder to kill or force out Vileplume.

 

[blasphemy1]

Probopass doesn't resist Fire. Slowking resists Fire + Psychic, so does Sharpedo etc.

What is an opposing Slowking going to do against you, though? I suppose if it's a Nasty Plot variant, it could set up, but that's why you have other teammates. Not sure I'd like to be walled by Sharpedo than Shiftry, but either one you can paralyze and make near worthless.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

Meganium @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -Spe)
- Return
- Seed Bomb
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis

I think this is the best Meganium is offering. Seed Bomb WILL 2HKO Drifblim with SR, Return will always 2HKO Vileplume. Seed Bomb comes close to OHKOing Regirock but no dice.

 

[Colonel Darren]

What is an opposing Slowking going to do against you, though? I suppose if it's a Nasty Plot variant, it could set up, but that's why you have other teammates. Not sure I'd like to be walled by Sharpedo than Shiftry, but either one you can paralyze and make near worthless.

I'd rather Paralyze a Sharpedo than a Shiftry, especially if I rely on Sandstorm. Sucker Punch will still hurt rather badly, especially since it'll maintain priority. The worst Sharpedo can do is a slow Crunch or Aqua Jet, either of which wouldn't do too badly to Vileplume or some other more bulky Grass.

 

[Raikaria]

Why is Pineco suddenly a better option over Roselia for you? He's frailer.

Yeah, because 50/90 physical defense is frailer than 50/45.

In fact, overall, Pinco and Roselia have identical defense.

Both have Base 50 HP

90 + 35 = 125
45 + 80 = 125

Both Roselia and Pinco are frail, however, Pinco has a better chance of surviving any attack at all in the first place, albeit, only physical. [And SR is not an assumed condition in NU, due to faster Taunt leads making SR less viable]

And Pinco's physical defense isn't MUCH worse than Dusclops. It is worse, but not by a massive margin. And Dusclops isn't easy to take out with physical moves, even if you avoid Will-O.

When you already have a Grass/Poision type on your team [Vileplume] a second is kinda redundant. Besides, Pinco can Explode, and he has a very nice little anti-stall thing of his own, Pain Split. With Base 50 HP. Hmm, that could serve as very annoying, especially as he dosen't die instantly when poked by a physical attack.

I'm just saying, don't write Pinco off entirely. If we're considering Roselia as a 'viable' spiker, Pinco should get the chance too. He can do things Roselia can't, and Roselia can do things Pinco can't... like hurt stuff without killing itself.



What have I unleashed? Suggesting Vileplume with RockKing?

I might even consider a Stall team without the sand, just so I don't have to waste a slot on the Hippo. I mean, Max Sp.Def + Careful Nature Regirock still acheives a massive 328 Sp.Def. That way, I can run another Special Defender to ease the load on Slowking, or maybe even wall SD Meganium till the cows come home with Shedinja. Especially with Pinco's Rapid Spin...

And 364 HP, 437 Defence, and 328 Sp.Def is monsterous, even without Sand. And with all the Regirocks around, I'm sure I'll have sand supplied to me every now and again.


Oh, also, hs anyone noticed how well Slowking and Regice gel together?

Slowking takes Fighting, Fire, and Steel type attacks like a champion, and no sane Rock-type is gonna stay in either.
Regice is neutral to Slowking's weaknesses, and drives off Grass types with the threat of STAB Ice Beams. Base 100 Defense allows him to take Dark and Bug attacks well as well.

Anyway, waiting for Pokemon Online to update with the Smogon Teirs like they decided they would, so I can stop with the Theorymon, and start with the testing.

EDIT: Fixed, thanks Ice X_x

 

[Ice-eyes]

Project NU =/= Pokemon Online :P

I just don't like Vileplume. I don't think it's all that good.

 

[Raikaria]

Eh, the main reason I suggested it is it's x4 resistance to Grass, and the fact that Aromatherapy can remove the need for Sleep Talk on Regirock.

And the Toxic Spikes Removal.

Even if you don't like it, you have to admit that Vileplume has massive synergy with Rock-King.


I've noticed that this is the second pokemon I've caused a mini-revolution about. I was the one who popularised Dodrio, when I pointed out "Manetric is the only resist to Flying in the Top 20, Flying tears stuff up. Dodrio is a Flying Type, and Base 100 Speed is FAST for NU" ages ago, and now Vileplume has caused a stir.

Let's just hope that my assumptions about Vileplume dosen't prove as effective as Dodrio's, or else we're going back to the centralised period of Milking.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

I'm hoping my Meganium set everyone ignores is going to help, if not, Project NU is going to be forced to insta-ban RegiKingPlume.
Well either way, it should be banned because it's the only set to counter it well.

 

[Raikaria]

RegiKingPlume would not need to be banned, I'm certain Vileplume itself is not broken.

Slowking, as I've said before, was considered by some to be broken in the Milking era, and even after Miltank left. But, seeing as the 'broken Fires' of that time [Charizard and Magmortar, Entei didn't have his event moves], were found not broken without Slowking, Slowking deserves a suspect test anyway now, even without Regirock.

Regirock fails to be OHKO'ed by Banded Hitmonchan's CC. I think the only thing that has a shot at OHKO'ing a Regirock is Banded Medicham's Hi Jump Kick... and that can miss.

I'm certain Slowking and Regirock will make suspect status this round. Slowking has prior experiance with him to make this statement less Theorymoned, and Regirock is just a monster in defense.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Guys, Vileplume really isn't that good. It's not like Dodrio, which was fast and could 2HKO basically the entire tier. It's a mediocre wall that's made good by Sleep Powder.

 

[Envoy.of.Water]

Wouldn't Meganium herself have good synergy with Regiking? I mean, it loses it's ability to take out opposing Grass types, yes, but it has much better overall stats than Vileplume, it can resist Grass as well and has the added advantage of resisting Ground, another of Regirock's weaknesses. She also gets Aromatherapy (which is one of Vileplume's major selling points) and if we're going on the defensive, she can set up screens to make Regiking even more impregnable.

Sure, it doesn't have the Fighting resist that Vileplume does, but that's what Slowking is for, isn't it? Moreover, he can actually kill those nasty Fighting types with STAB Psychic.

The only reasons I see to not use Meganium over Vileplume are the aforementioned inability to hurt Grass types and the much worse sleeping move. She makes up for this with Screens and bulk though, as well as a Ground resist that Regikingplume doesn't have.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Yeah, the big attraction of Vileplume is sleep and the ability to counter Grasses. That's the only thing it brings to RegiKing really, and Meganium doesn't help in either way.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

RegiKingPlume would not need to be banned, I'm certain Vileplume itself is not broken.

Slowking, as I've said before, was considered by some to be broken in the Milking era, and even after Miltank left. But, seeing as the 'broken Fires' of that time [Charizard and Magmortar, Entei didn't have his event moves], were found not broken without Slowking, Slowking deserves a suspect test anyway now, even without Regirock.

Regirock fails to be OHKO'ed by Banded Hitmonchan's CC. I think the only thing that has a shot at OHKO'ing a Regirock is Banded Medicham's Hi Jump Kick... and that can miss.

I'm certain Slowking and Regirock will make suspect status this round. Slowking has prior experiance with him to make this statement less Theorymoned, and Regirock is just a monster in defense.

Well, guess I'mma be away from Smogon's NU for awhile (few months) until Suspect is done.