NU Discussion Thread

[Droideka88]

Yeah, we should honestly start doing our own suspect testing on a different forum or something. Not to secede from Smogon, but moreso to get started on it.

With the current success of the refined BL "tier" and UU tier, I wouldn't hesitate if NU had its own version of a ban tier that could be placed somewhere between UU and NU.

On a side note,

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/ninetales

Ninetales (F) @ Lum Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
---

I didn't put Hynosis with Ninetales as I prefered to rely Hynosis alongside a Scarfed-Gardevoir...

Give that set a try guys. You may actually enjoy it.

 

[Ritsi_Time]

On the Walrein debate, any kind of status shuts it down, and a good 53% of the tier can outspeed and status it. Lapras is a great counter, since it can set up in Walrein's face as it absorbs its Surfs and 4x resists its Blizzards. Bibarel, Qwilfish, Poliwrath, Gorebyss, or any good bulky water could do the same, probably, though I haven't really tested it. I wouldn't say it's broken, it's just people go about defeating it poorly, myself included. I haven't seen anything truly broken in the tier as of yet.

 

[xdevo13]

The problem with most of those ( exept Qwuilfish ) are stalled out with toxic or worse Toxic Spikes.
Walrien comes in on something that can't harm him, subs up as you switch to your counter, if Toxic spikes are up he uses protect and Drains your health by alternating subs and Protect, if not he uses toxic and Protects to scout your move and switches to a resist.

 

[Ritsi_Time]

Unless something breaks its sub and Toxics/KOs it first. Like, say, Ampharos, Exeggutor, Magneton, Gorebyss. Probably Magneton since it can't be Toxic'd. Switching them in seems to be the biggest problem, unless you switch on a sub/protect.

 

[diinbong]

I love a tier where both Skuntank and Lunatone are viable!! Anyway, I've been trying out the Steel Wormadam considering it has a really great typing (Bug/Steel), learns Stealth Rock, and isn't weak to Ground. Unfortunately it just "isn't good enough". Almost all neutral attacks are going to 2HKO, plus Wormadam's best offense is Toxic and Protect. Better luck next time with unexpected amazing NUs I guess!

Also saying that Walrein is beaten by status is stupid considering the point of it is to always have a substitute up, especially against things that might have status-inducing moves. Saying "Toxic Spikes!!!" isn't enough either because if you run Walrein you should have a Poison-type to absorb TS and set up your own anyway. NU is like an inverse Uber right now; Pokemon are just in there because they aren't good enough to be in a higher tier and therefor it is like an uneven banlist that doesn't get any suspect attention.

 

[blasphemy1]

On the Walrein debate, any kind of status shuts it down, and a good 53% of the tier can outspeed and status it. Lapras is a great counter, since it can set up in Walrein's face as it absorbs its Surfs and 4x resists its Blizzards. Bibarel, Qwilfish, Poliwrath, Gorebyss, or any good bulky water could do the same, probably, though I haven't really tested it. I wouldn't say it's broken, it's just people go about defeating it poorly, myself included. I haven't seen anything truly broken in the tier as of yet.

Given that Walrein has Roar almost all the time, have fun setting up on it. Perish Song is really the best way to beat it with Lapras.

 

[Xaqwais]

Would you guys be up to making a forum on invision free or something for discussion on the Suspect testing of NU?

 

[Ritsi_Time]

Given that Walrein has Roar almost all the time, have fun setting up on it. Perish Song is really the best way to beat it with Lapras.

Well it's either Roar or Toxic.

Just had a thought, NU is filled with fast Encore-ers, if they can get it on a sub or protect and Encore it. If it doesn't have Blizzard, then it's a good time for Jumpluff.

@ Xagwais: I think it'll take a bit longer before we realize what are potential suspects.

 

[xdevo13]

Which is what protect or switching is for.

 

[Snorlaxe]

Well it's either Roar or Toxic.

Just had a thought, NU is filled with fast Encore-ers, if they can get it on a sub or protect and Encore it. If it doesn't have Blizzard, then it's a good time for Jumpluff.

@ Xagwais: I think it'll take a bit longer before we realize what are potential suspects.

But NU is a highly offensive enviornment where not much sets up, so does Encore really matter? :$

 

[Ritsi_Time]

But NU is a highly offensive enviornment where not much sets up, so does Encore really matter? :$

You know, Taunt would work a lot better, but I'm not really sure at the moment, this is just going by what I've seen so far. So yeah, those are my thoughts, time to actually start testing some of this.

 

[xdevo13]

A lot of things set up or a have Choice item
ninetails, Linoone, DDLapras, SRs, Spikers, Swords Dance Urasing, other Jumpluff, anything with Substitute ect. ect.

 

[Bad Ass]

WOW do you have NU wrong! so many things require set up to pack even somewhat of a punch, it's insanity.

 

[Snorlaxe]

WOW do you have NU wrong! so many things require set up to pack even somewhat of a punch, it's insanity.

Well, Glaceon doesnt exactly require set-up. And that thing is a NU bitch from my experience. While Ursaring is a threat, if not a SD one, it wont be a problem (Protect+Quick Feet+Facade, people!).

 

[xdevo13]

If he uses Protect encore will hit the next utrn forcing him to switch or Protect while you set up
he only has 343 speed max which is below anything with 110 speed or higher

 

[Xaqwais]

@ Xagwais: I think it'll take a bit longer before we realize what are potential suspects.

That doesn't mean discussion can't start to be more organized now.

 

[Thund91]

I'm loving Luxray! He walks over all those damn Dodrios and Walreins! xD

 

[starcrusher]

I'm loving Luxray! He walks over all those damn Dodrios and Walreins! xD

i was loving that luxray too, interesting set also.

after being completely dismantled by one earlier i am going to argue that knock off / encore shuckle is one of the best walls in NU. especially in sand, then it just becomes ridiculous.

 

[Riverside]

Ninetales (F) @ Lum Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot

I battled a guy with HP rock (For other fire pokemon, pelipper and mantine) instead of subs and life orb, with that Ninetales can't be walled by nothing. It may be broken even. But looking Ursaring and Medicham in this tier makes me think that even if it can't be walled it won't be UU.

Ir you want a Walrein cuonter you could try Stallcuno with rest (Yeah i know roost it's better, but w/e) or with prediction (predicting a non-toxic attack)

The idea it's to stall stallrein :] beware of SR roar of course.

Anyways, now that i'm retired from the game (I don't like the tiers, including some NUs) I guess I can share my movesets, so you guys can comment about 'em.

This is my ol' Hitmonchan

Hitmonchan (M) @ Big Root **SuperMachoMan
Trait: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 64 Def / 176 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Thunderpunch / Fire Punch / Ice Punch
- Fire Punch / Ice Punch / Thunderpunch

The idea it's to come against a weak special attacker (like walls) and set up 1 or 2 bulk ups or how many you can before your health goes orange or red, then use drain punch to recover HP

The elemental punch it's for type coverage in OU I rather Ice punch + Fire Punch (Gliscor and Scizor) but in NU you may want to use another one.

As a fun fact Hitmonchan's best stat it's Spc def.

 

[Sceats]

I battled a guy with HP rock (For other fire pokemon, pelipper and mantine) instead of subs and life orb, with that Ninetales can't be walled by nothing. It may be broken even. But looking Ursaring and Medicham in this tier makes me think that even if it can't be walled it won't be UU.

Ir you want a Walrein cuonter you could try Stallcuno with rest (Yeah i know roost it's better, but w/e) or with prediction (predicting a non-toxic attack)

The idea it's to stall stallrein :] beware of SR roar of course.

Anyways, now that i'm retired from the game (I don't like the tiers, including some NUs) I guess I can share my movesets, so you guys can comment about 'em.

This is my ol' Hitmonchan

Hitmonchan (M) @ Big Root **SuperMachoMan
Trait: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 64 Def / 176 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Thunderpunch / Fire Punch / Ice Punch
- Fire Punch / Ice Punch / Thunderpunch

The idea it's to come against a weak special attacker (like walls) and set up 1 or 2 bulk ups or how many you can before your health goes orange or red, then use drain punch to recover HP

The elemental punch it's for type coverage in OU I rather Ice punch + Fire Punch (Gliscor and Scizor) but in NU you may want to use another one.

As a fun fact Hitmonchan's best stat it's Spc def.

Just so you know ninetales definately doesent want hp rock since it changes its speed iv to 30 and then its outsped by other pokes such as entei, raichu and other ninetales. Also, why do you have drain punch? You might aswell go for something more offensive since its low powers gonna let you down even with the boost. It also wont be healing too much.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I battled a guy with HP rock (For other fire pokemon, pelipper and mantine) instead of subs and life orb, with that Ninetales can't be walled by nothing.

Without Dark Pulse, Ninetales can be walled comfortably by Grumpig and Gardevoir, in addition to Munchlax and Camerupt who just counter it well regardless. Oh and Purugly easily checks it for what it's worth.

 

[Riverside]

Purugly it's OHKO with +2 FB +LO + Stealth rocks. Same with camerupt but with Fire blast (90 Base power even if 1/2), it's too risky to switch on both of them. (it's a OHKO to camerupt factoring SR and 0hp, 0spc def, 2HKO to the "support camerupt" from the analysis meaning that you can't switch that easily)

Grumpig it's 3HKO'd (If im not wrong) by +2 Energy ball + LO wich isn't bad at all thinking that it's a special wall and Gardevoir it's similar but she can give problems with wish+protect, this is assuming they both have 252 hp 252 spc def neutral nature.

To put in other words, ninetales its the Lucario from NU as a late game sweeper, he just needs a priority special move :p The speed of HP rock it's issue, but you could just try jolly 300 speed and see what you outspeed, and what you don't (speed tie (328 speed) isn't very confortable anyways)

As for 'Chan Drain punch it's for recovery HP obviously, as leftovers recovery it's very low and it's as unexpected attack.

With 2 bulk ups you kill everything super effective with drain punch anyway.

 

[Folgorio]

Would you guys be up to making a forum on invision free or something for discussion on the Suspect testing of NU?

Well if someone makes the forum, I'd gladly join. Oh and statusing walrein isn't exactly an easy thing since unless he sets up on something with status, odds are it's not going to hit by it. And even if you do switch out to something that can he can just use roar or maybe even an aromatherapist.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Purugly it's OHKO with +2 FB +LO + Stealth rocks.

I said Purugly was a good check, not a 100% counter. It can switch in on any attack at +0 and survive (don't assume an instant Nasty Plot), then averages about 100% with Silk Scarf Fake Out + Return. How is that not beating Ninetales?

Same with camerupt but with Fire blast (90 Base power even if 1/2), it's too risky to switch on both of them. (it's a OHKO to camerupt factoring SR and 0hp, 0spc def, 2HKO to the "support camerupt" from the analysis meaning that you can't switch that easily)

Camerupt doesn't care if it is being 2HKO'd after Nasty Plot because it knows it can OHKO straight back with Earthquake. How does it not fit the definition of a counter?

Grumpig it's 3HKO'd (If im not wrong) by +2 Energy ball + LO wich isn't bad at all thinking that it's a special wall and Gardevoir it's similar but she can give problems with wish+protect, this is assuming they both have 252 hp 252 spc def neutral nature.

Why neutral nature? If you're a special wall then you'll be running a +nature obviously. With max / max+ both have only a small chance of being 3HKO'd by +2 LO Energy Ball, but still, if you can only 3HKO after set up, you're pretty much walled for all intents and purposes.

To put in other words, ninetales its the Lucario from NU as a late game sweeper, he just needs a priority special move.

But it doesn't have one, so I don't know why you brought that up. Zangoose is the Lucario of NU if such a thing exists.

 

[Riverside]

I said Purugly was a good check, not a 100% counter. It can switch in on any attack at +0 and survive (don't assume an instant Nasty Plot), then averages about 100% with Silk Scarf Fake Out + Return. How is that not beating Ninetales?

That's why I said ninetales plays @ late game.

Camerupt doesn't care if it is being 2HKO'd after Nasty Plot because it knows it can OHKO straight back with Earthquake. How does it not fit the definition of a counter?

First of all it depends on the EVs, as I said it's OHKO with 0/4, second you can't just switch in Camerupt and feel safe because many Ninetales carry Hypnosis, so unless you know it has E-ball, flamethrower, HP rock and NP you won't be safe at all and third you can just switch out Ninetales until you take down Camerupt (something like digglet could be useful) to start sweeping, unless you have a team of Purugly, Camerupt, Grumping, Gardevoir and... don't know, what else can put Ninetales in a check? Gabite?

Why neutral nature? If you're a special wall then you'll be running a +nature obviously. With max / max+ both have only a small chance of being 3HKO'd by +2 LO Energy Ball, but still, if you can only 3HKO after set up, you're pretty much walled for all intents and purposes.

I was lazy to do the calculations. Anyways if you check the analysis ALL the grumpig sets have max hp but are far away from maxing Spc def, so i don't think it matter anyways.

It also depends on the set, RestStalk grumpig can't do much, Ninetales doesn't care a lot of trick so the only ones grumpig that can do something are Calm mind sweeper or something with status (T-wave, Toxic)

Gardevoir can wish protect, but that's a free nasty plot for ninetales (While protect), status it's the only thing she can do to stop the Kyūbi for sweep.

Keep in mind also, that those pokemon may be hurt while battling, but you can just save Ninetales (as all the late game sweepers) until they're weak, so you can own them all)

But it doesn't have one, so I don't know why you brought that up. Zangoose is the Lucario of NU if such a thing exists.

Doesnt Dusclops/Sableye/Gastly/Faster pokemon (depending on set) stop Zangoose? But it's very threatening without a ghost and a at least 100 base speed pokemon.