NU in OU? Are you Serious? An OU RMT.

[Lucien Lachance]

@ dan - I have rapid spin support now. I have a donphan.

The problem with using a revenge killing starmie, is what if they have a TTar out. I just get walled. I like having 1 Physical and 1 Special revenge killer.I see what happens if I use like scarfed swine. a gimmick, but suprising. I'll look into that.

No for mamoswine >> Champ. I'd have a water weakness.

I'm getting off for tonight. I'll keep thinking and if you have an idea for a PHYSICAL revenge killer than can hit a lot of pokemon, like machamp could, let me know. I'll get back to ALL comments tomorrow. Thanks everyone.

 

[BinarySolo]

Okay dude, I have used Krow as a lead and while it does work pretty well, Butters is right. Whether he has used Honchkrow or not has no bearing on how it handles opposing leads, because calculations > 'experience'. He wasn't bagging you out, he was helping you - if you can't take constructive criticism, then don't post a RMT (and don't read the rest of my post...) because you don't make RMT's so that people can praise you on your wonderfully-unique team, you make them to actually use the advice you receive.

Well now that that's out of the way, here comes the rate! Since you seem pretty unlikely to consider replacing Honchkrow, I'll just leave that as it is, and it's a pretty good lead anyway.

Now, you say Machamp keeps Mence under control, but consider this: Mence has plenty of opportunities to come in to play, right? Against Scarfed Machamp's Fire Punch, against Scarftran's Fire Blast or Earth Power, and Honchkrow isn't going to be able to stop Mence (although Sucker Punch will cripple it severely). From there, MixMence will shit all over your team with the appropriate move and DDmence will Dragon Dance and if Donphan's out of commission, it's pretty much GG. Anyway I'm going off on a tangent, but basically you aren't as well prepared for Mence as you think.

Okay so since Heatran is a better scarfer than Machamp, I suggest that you change Machamp's set to a RestTalk set that will give you something to take Sleep, since nobody likes immediately having a 5-6 disadvantage courtesy of a Roserade or Breloom.

Machamp@Leftovers
Adamant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
No Guard
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Dynamicpunch
-Payback/Ice Punch

Mmkay so Rest and Sleep Talk explain themselves, Dynamicpunch works wonderfully with Sleep Talk (it negates DPunch's low PP) and the last two moves are down to preference. Payback is the obvious one, preventing Ghosts from walling you all day. but since you really don't want Mence setting up, Ice Punch might also be a good choice. You could also use Stone Edge but I think it is a lesser option.

Alrighty leave Heatran as it is, Donphan is great for keeping Mence in check. However with Rotom I strongly suggest Thunderbolt over Shadow Ball since Electric is actually resisted by fewer types than Ghost. Thunderbolt also has higher base power so that's a plus. It also has superior super-effective coverage. By the way Rotom-w is in no way, shape or form a Gengar counter: a counter is supposed to be able to switch in with impunity multiple times. Rotom cannot switch into Gengar with impunity (meaning, on any of it's attacks [in this context]) so yeah, just a heads up. On that note Gengar is a problem for your team, with Honchkrow and Heatran being the only Pokemon who can stop it so far.

With that in mind here's my final suggestion (which you are definitely going to hate): Zapdos over Articuno. While you do have a Spinner, remember that you won't always be able to Spin Rocks away, and under those circumstances you're pretty much screwed with Articuno. Zapdos handles Rocks much better, and helps with your Gengar weakness, since Articuno dies to Tbolt from Gengar. Also, Zapdos keeps Scizor in check. You can still use Toxic SubRoost, but I feel Zapdos is a better choice.

As for Articuno's unpredictability, it's actually not hard to predict that it's going to use an Ice attack and if SR is up then unpredictability won't mattter. I seriously doubt that a team would be unprepared for it too, since a simple Steel-type (which are everywhere in the Dragon-centric metagame) will completely wall Cuno.

Good luck with your team, and please at least try my suggestions, even if you don't make them permanent.

EDIT: Why are you so keen on a physical revenge killer? Heatran revenges Pokes just fine... Oh and I changed my mind; I now suggest Scarf Starmie over Heatran since it actually can revenge kill Salamence. With TTar, it doesn't necessarily wall Starmie, since Hydro Pump 2HKOs IIRC. Unfortunately TTar is an issue for Starmie, but you also use Rotom who has TTar issues, so you shouldn't be worried about using Starmie. It also still resists Fire AND Water, so it's a win-win situation.

 

[I Abuse Smeargles]

Uhh... Thought I would point this out.

Since you are running HP Ice now on Heatran, your lead strategy fails VS Swampert. I know for MY Swampert, I always keep them in on Heatran, cause I don't give a crap if it dies ( Since Leadpert in my eyes, is just deathfodder. xD ) and I tend to Earthquake or Roar Heatran, expecting the Substitute set.

Thought I would point out you need something to hit Swampert with, cause Rest Talk / Curse Swampert will have a FIELD-DAY with your team, since you lack any Grass Move to hit it with.

Good luck!

 

[technomancer]

I've been running honch for a good amount of time now. Pursuit imo is rarely needed because its assumed; most people attack through it and are ohko'd by sucker punch, so i replaced it with substitute. My most successful set was Sub/Sp/Heat Wave/Brave bird with liechi berry and enough Def/hp evs to survive a scizor bullet punch. The general idea is that honchkrow burns itself out and weakens or eliminates fast, frail pokemon with sucker punch. if you pull off a sub, then you can easily ko a huge amount of pokes with brave bird/sucker punch, and you'll activate your berry in many situations. Using it alongside a powerful setup sweeper like lucario that likes to meet things at half hp is my preference.

Anyway! I like your set up here but you lack pokemon that can switch in on water attacks constantly, making crocune, vaporeon, starmie and empoleon problematic. Empoleon deserves mention because he mauls your articuno, i dont think you can break his subs with 1 ice beam. Rotom and machamp are good switch ins, but articuno needs to switch out. Machamp is a good answer but you become choice locked on either t punch or dynamicpunch and are thusly set up on by rotom, empoleons bff. Starmie is another issue, switching in and outspeeding machamp and rotom and doing heavy damage to all of your pokes; scarf tyranitar running pursuit, stone edge, and eq can answer for some of these threat, but you won't like sandstorm much. If you do that, cb or lum berry staraptor makes a great lead, with u-turn, brave bird, close combat and filler.

You might prefer dd or specs kingdra as well, as he can set up on bulky waters and dish out significant damage, while not adding weaknesses or sandstorm, but youll still have trouble with starmie without a pursuiter.

i might rate more later but thats it for now. the last thing ill say is that once you hit 1300-1400, times are going to get real hard for you because your stat totals are low and prediction won't cover your ass.

 

[HouseFantastic]

I love Articuno and Honchkrow, they are two of my favorite pokemon ever, and therefore, I love this team.

The biggest problem I see is the rare possibility of a Slowbro. Its great Def, decent SpD, the ability Own Tempo and its typing, it could cause quite a problem for both of your revenge killers, it would be trouble for your rapid spinner, and it would lure out your honchkrow/rotom. I think you have the capability of beating it, but I see that you don't have a physical strategy laid out for it. While it's not labelled 'OU,' for the reasons above, I would start preparing for it.

Slowking, I am not quite as sure about, since I haven't used it yet. Maybe it's even more of a threat, becaue its special defense would better block Heatran, and it could Nasty Plot on the switch, which would suck for your rotom, or they could ice beam on the switch and do some serious damage to Honchkrow. Hopefully for you, though, this might not be too much of a problem once you think it over.

Great team, hope it gets you a good spot on the ladder! :)

 

[Press To Play]

once donphan is down, ddmence will run through your team. you dont have a scarfer that can outspeed it. although you can lure the outrage with champ and switch to heatran. heatran will still most prolly die. you could probably replace rotom with a CBzor. CBzor lures in fire attacks.. heatran goes in. flash fire boost. :) CBzor also kills mence, and KO's it with one round of LO+SR+SS iirc.

goodluck. ;;

 

[Lucien Lachance]

@ Press - Donphan purpose is to spin before I release the Articuno, and Revenge kill Mence if i can't stop it from setting up. Other than that, It's not really appearing.

If i did switch zor > rotom, I'd have a fire weakness. Rotom and Articuno are my checks to stall. If i get rid of 1, I'm more stall weak.

I don't have SS support so your comment on LO+SR+SS doesn't apply. I also do not want to completely change my team for that purpose.

@ House - Aww.. people are going to hate on me for you saying you love the team cuz i use Krow and Cuno... Oh well.

Krow is my lead so it's already shown XD.

I better strategy... I can look at their page and see what counters. Maybe I can map out a strategy from there?

@ techno - Your idea for Krow lead really wants me to try it out... I think I will once I get a long 1-3 hour time frame for me to do that, probably tomorrow, so I'll have to get back to you on that.

The staraptor lead makes sense, it still sticks with the whole bird and unexpected lead style, but still dishing out a lot of damage. I might look into that.

If i use Kingdra, where will i swap it in?

@ Smeargle - Becuase I has Explosion on Tran, I OHKO Pert.

@ Binary - I now see my fault with my Machamp counter for Mence. That's also why I was so sold on Donphan. Ice Shard 2HKOs Mence, while I shrug off the EQ or Outrage becuase of my high defenses. Even if he switches, I can still Spin and then switch.

My rotom now does have T-bolt over Shadow Ball.

On your Gengar note, I had Shadow Ball only becuase when I switch in rotom, I guess they'll send in a Gengar and fire a blind Shadow Ball. It did net me a few ghost kills, but the word 'counter' was used too loosely on my part. Shadow ball still hits for about 76% or so on Gengar.

It was a troubling decision, Zap or Cuno. I only chose to use Cuno for the sole reason that it's defenses were better. I think HP is better too, but don't quote me on that. Unless I'm right. If you think Steels are a major problem for me, I can always TRY HP (fire) >> Toxic. I do like toxic becuase if Gengar is out, and it doesn't have T-Bolt, I use Toxic, they break sub, and I just roost spam. Toxic wears them out and they die from poison or switch. Works. I then Sub and continue being a loser.

Starmie >> Heatran only becuase it can revenge kill Mence. That's why I have Donphan... I guess... I'll check type coverage and see. How about this set?
Starmie @ Scarf
Natural Cure
Sweeper EVs
Timid nature
-Hydro Pump
-T-bolt
-Ice beam
-filler, thinking HP (fighting) for sole purpose of hitting Steels and TTar hard. Always option.
*Rotom has 70 Def EVs and Will-O-Wisp so it doesn't get hit as hard by TTar and the likes.

@ Almost everyone who hates me using Krow lead - I have 2 options that I can use to help deal with leads. Give Krow HP with a type that helps me deal with the mosts leads, or, use Champ + Tran lead synergy pair and use Krow as Revenge Killer? I'm leaning toward second option becuase it guareentees that I get to own all the leads as well as keeping my awesome bird. What do you guys think?

**Edit** Slowking isn't too much of a problem because it has higher SpD stats and lower Def. Krow comes in on it's set-up move, which it usually does, and then OHKOs with Sucker Punch. Drill Peck if it's the CM set. Slowbro is a problem, but, if I use Starmie, doesn't like getting hit by electric attacks. So i can easily sacrifice a pokemon that is in death range from SR for a free switch-in and pummel with Starmie. Looks like there's another reason why I need Starmie huh?

**Important note**
Hopefully in a few days I will be adding a very large add-on to the main article called After extensive testing. This doesn't mean I haven't tested it before, it just means I'm an ACTUALLY paying attention to what each pokemon brings to the table in a battle and which pokemon are dead weight and which are my clutch players.

 

[BinarySolo]

Just so you know: Gengar can't be Toxic'd because it's part Poison-type. That Starmie set looks fine, I suggest Trick or Grass Knot in the last slot. While both are a bit situational, a SE HP Fighting is actually weaker than STAB Hydro Pump (140<180) and again, SE Hydro Pump trumps 4X effective HP Fighting on TTar (280<360).

If you do replace Krow, don't make it a revenge killer as SR wrecks it. You could just use a LO set, but that will also be worn down quickly. By the way, LO Adamant Max Attack Sucker Punch just OHKOs Offensive Jolteon, so that's a plus.

Steels aren't necessarily a problem for you, but Zapdos has an easier time Toxic SubRoost stalling thanks to handling SR better and taking a pittance from Scizor's Bullet Punch, which absolutely wrecks Articuno (who can't do anything in return).

 

[NightShadow]

Have you actually used this team/ looked at the current metagame?

Azelf: Pursuit in case they switch. If they used Taunt, Pursuit again, if they used Stealth Rock, Sucker Punch. Fine
Aerodactyl: Switch to Champ for Ice Punch 2HKO. He'll just rock on your switch and switch out
Swampert: Superpower on the Stealth Rock and then Sucker Punch on the Ice Beam / Ice Punch or whatever. Should score me 2HKO. Not even close, 244 Naive Focus Sash Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252/252 Relaxed Leftovers Swampert : 24.5% - 29%
Metagross: Heat Wave. 48 Naive Focus Sash Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252/0 Adamant Lum Berry Metagross : 47.3% - 56% You don't stop his rocks and might not even 2HKO, Occa Gross is even worse
Jirachi: Take the Trick and hit hard with Heat Wave. I actually enjoy Scarf becuase Krow makes an amazing revenge killer XD. Fine, but if they use Iron Head you're boned.
Infernape: Switch to Rotom for Fake Out and then Sub on the Stealth Rock. Rotom walls Nape lead so I have no problem stalling it out. 252 Naive Focus Sash Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Rotom-W : 52.3% - 61.5% That is not walling
Machamp: Here's where I have the most difficulty. Switch to Rotom to take DynamicPunch and then I switch to Heatran on the Payback and pray I OHKO with Fire Blast.252 Naive Choice Scarf Heatran Fire Blast vs. 220/16 Adamant Lum Berry Machamp : 58.5% - 69.4%
Roserade: Take the Sleep Powder, I have Insomnia, and OHKO with Heat Wave. Unless you're playing a new player your opponent will know that Krow has Insomnia, and will proceed to set up 2 layers of toxic spikes or KO you with either HP Ice x 2 or HP Fire then Leaf Storm.
Tyranitar: Superpower FTW? Fine
Gliscor: Superpower and then Sucker Punch. 242 Naive Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252/40 Jolly Leftovers Gliscor : 18.4% - 21.8%
Heatran: Superpower. Fine

Also, you said that most Scizor use life orb, well :
Scizor | Item | Choice Band | 58.0

I'll rate when I have more time

personlly i agree with you. honchkrow in OU is completely outclassed by things like machamp as a lead, or even metagross. as a scarfer, it is completely outclassed by heatran and flygon. whether or not butter has used a honchkrow before, it does not matter. The calculations are unmovable, and unchangable. most leads own krow. seriously, change it around to a stealth rocking lead. i recommend azelf (the most used lead xD) because it allows you to retain a offensive momentum. fire blast fixes the problem with gross leads and jirachi leads (unless gross is occa), which honchkrow fails to severely dent.

also, whats with most scizor use life orb? most scizor use CB, which leaves them complete magnezone bait.

 

[Lucien Lachance]

Last comment before I begin Extensive testing with my team as it is currently:

@Binary: Strange, I guess it might have been burn that worn Gengar down from when Rotom was out. Either way I stalled it out and got a free kill.

I thought SR wasn't a problem since I have Donphan for Rapid Spin support.

If Cuno doesn't hold up to it's high standards in Extensive testing, I will look at Dos >> Cuno.

@Night: If Krow doesn't hold up to it's high standards in Extensive testing, I will look at a Champ >> Krow.

From my experience using Zone, most Scizors carried LO instead of CB.

**Edit** If you didn't see, Extensive Testing is up and ready for reading on the main post.

 

[Lucien Lachance]

I would like *BUMP* for 600 please.

 

[R.B.G.]

Loving the TES4 Oblivion name/avatar/signature at the moment. Dark Brotherhood ftw.

-You've probably already noticed this. Your Articuno is playing somewhat like a Stallbreaker Gliscor.
-If you're so worried about Breloom, but don't want to change your team around that much, switch Machamp with Honchkrow.

Honchkrow already has Insomnia, Breloom's Spore is useless at this point. If you're worried about it getting up a Sub, you could always throw Taunt on it.

Machamp in the lead slot is viable, and here you could play Machamp off to its real strengths. You could always take off one of the elemental punches and replace it with Bullet Punch as well.

It's your team, but if this was mine, I really would switch Honchkrow and Machamp.

 

[Lucien Lachance]

I should probably revamp the team. I swapped Cuno for Dos and Champ for Starmie. Revenge killer Starmie as a 3rd check to Mence. Same set on Dos. And original set on Heatran, functioned way better at killer waters.

Give me a while and It'll be done.

@ RBG - I usually play Krow as suside lead, but if the odds are against me, I can easily switch out Krow and save him for Loom or where he counters somethin.

 

[TheAppetizer]

The biggest problem I see is the rare possibility of a Slowbro. Its great Def, decent SpD, the ability Own Tempo and its typing, it could cause quite a problem for both of your revenge killers, it would be trouble for your rapid spinner, and it would lure out your honchkrow/rotom. I think you have the capability of beating it, but I see that you don't have a physical strategy laid out for it. While it's not labelled 'OU,' for the reasons above, I would start preparing for it.

Slowbro is a fantastic counter for Machamp. It can survive anything Machamp can dish out and KO it with psychic. I think it can survive heatran's explosion.

 

[Lucien Lachance]

@ Appetizer - Machamp has been replaced by Starmie, which easily counters Slowbro. Heatran no longer has explosion, it has HP Grass. Let me show you how easily Slowbro is beaten.

Starmie using T-Bolt V Slowbro = 52.8% - 62.4%.
Slowbro using Psychic V Starmie = 21% - 25.2% (best option, I know it's sad.
Starmie 2HKOs.
Zapdos using T-Bolt V Slowbro = 75.1% - 88.8%
Slowbro using Ice Beam Zapdos = 32.4% - 38.1%
Another easy 2HKO taking minimal damage.

 

[NightShadow]

just something quick, rotom does not WALL infernape.

 

[DarXidE]

You'll want to opt for Fire Blast over Flamethrower on heatran...85% accuracy is not bad. Also, a chance to 2hko salamence after Stealth Rock, as well as packing much more damage (Flamethrower = 142.5 base power after STAB while fire blast is 180 base power) seems too good to pass up.

Also this is called "NU in OU? Are you Serious?", although there's no NU Pokemon.

 

[Lucien Lachance]

DarXidE - Missing is a pain in the ass for me. I've lost matches where Flamethrower would have done me just fine. I don't need to 2HKO Mence, Donphan and Starmie do that.

It had NU pokemon, Articuno and Magneton, until I changed them. Read the Team Building section why don't you?