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NU Permanent Weather Starter Experiment (updated with part 2)

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by LibraSnakes13, Mar 25, 2012.

  1. LibraSnakes13

    LibraSnakes13

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2012
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    6
    Edit: Scroll past the first part of this post to see the updated section
    Also, yes, I know that Mesprit is now in RU now. The tournaments were done when he was still in NU


    Hello everyone, today, I’m here to present an unusual experiment that I’m currently in the midst of. At Pokemon Showdown!, I host tournaments frequently to the users. These tournaments are designed to challenge the participants and force them to try new strategies rather than rely on the old tried and true methods. One of the tournaments I held was on March 21st, 2012 and was called the NU Perm Weather Starter Tournament. Here are the rules:

    Obviously, the changing of the ability meant that typical battles would not do. Instead, the participants played in the Hackmon Tier. A tier where users can change and alter pokemon and give them moves/abilities that are illegal for them to have (see verbatim’s post for more details).

    This tournament was inspired by Ninetales and Politoed. In the days of Diamond and Pearl, they were banished the NU lot, with many trainers not even giving them a second glance. But their Dream World abilities boosted them into OU where they remain top choice pokemon to this day. My aim was to recreate that scenario and give a NU pokemon that chance to shine.

    There are two reasons for me wanting to try such a thing out. One, as I mentioned before, this new strategy forces the user to break boundaries and try something new with their now special NU pokemon. Two, I wanted to see if there was an NU pokemon that was not only equal in terms of reliability compared to Politoed and Ninetales (and a lesser extent towards the other weather starting pokemon) but perhaps surpass them in it as well.

    14 users participated in this tournament. I have seen some interesting teams and a lot of good choices for an NU pokemon with a perm weather starting ability. Here are the ones that stuck out to me in terms of creativity and how well the team did overall.

    Note: Yes, I know that it takes an experienced battler to make a good team win battles. However, that’s why I looked at the other teams that did not do so well and considered their NU pokemon as well. It should also be noted that I wasn’t able to get all the teams as some of the participants deleted their teams shortly after.

    Sand Stream
    Only two participants used Sand Stream as their choice for weather. And both of them used The highly defensive pokemon of Shuckle.
    This was a good choice of a pokemon IMO. The already highly defensive pokemon gets a 50% boost to its sky high Special Defense stats. It seemed to act like a replacement for Hippowdon only with a lot higher defense but a lot poor attack and no Roar. The lack of a roar was what seemed to hurt Shuckle as he couldn’t phase out his opponents. The Shuckles were also taken down by being toxic/burn or by getting 25% damage every time it went into the field with Stealth Rock Present.

    Drought
    Surprisingly, none of the users pick a pokemon to use Drought with (and if they did it was probably deleted before I could get to them).

    Drizzle
    One of the more popular weathers in the Tournament was the use of Drizzle. Here are the ones that stood out to me.

    Floatzel was one of the entries with a set seen here:
    [​IMG]
    Floatzel @ Choice Band
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk
    Jolly Nature
    - Aqua Jet
    - Waterfall
    - Ice Punch
    - Crunch

    This is actually based off the first set on Smogon with the obvious exception of no more Swift Swim. Floatzel actually runs this set well. Though he no longer gets his boost of speed in the rain, he gets a boost in his attack power thanks to the rain making Aqua Jet with a boosted power of now 135!

    One surprising NU pokemon with Drizzle was Mesprit! This team actually went pretty far in the tournament.
    [​IMG]
    Mesprit @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - U-turn
    - Toxic
    - Psychic
    - Rain Dance

    This set reminds me of the Ninetales Sunny Day set and blends a defensive set with an offensive set as well. It works well as a weather lead and once set up, it can U-Turn out to another pokemon that might resist the opponent’s attacking move. It can use Rain Dance when other weather pokemon are thrown out and use Toxic to hit rather stubborn pokemon (like the aforementioned Shuckle). Though Mesprit doesn’t have a water-type move to back it up, it can still be useful to its fellow water-loving teammates.

    Finally, and my favorite, was the use of Swanna.
    [​IMG]
    Aquack (Swanna) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 10 HP / 252 SAtk / 248 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Surf
    - Hurricane
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Hurricane, need I say more? The use of Hurricane puts Swanna at a spot that makes Politoed green with envy (even though he’s already green..so…nevermind…I’ll shut up…). It’s an undeniable threat, throw out Swanna, make it rain and unleash the fury of a STAB Hurricane. Unfortunately, Swanna’s Special Attack is okay with a power of 87 which was why the user maximized his Special Attack along with giving it a modest nature. Swanna also suffers in the fact that Surf is its strongest move along with a rather minimum movepool to select from.

    Snow Warning
    Finally, Snow Warning. Of all the weather abilities, Snow Warning was probably the most popular to choose from due to the rather, *cough*, lackluster Abomasnow. It’s also one of the more exploitable abilities to use as well with a lot of ice-type pokemon in the NU tier. Glaceon and Articuno were ones that were used but the one that I’ll talk about is actually the one that was on the team that won the tournament.
    [​IMG]
    Regice @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 248 HP / 10 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Thunder Wave
    - Rest
    - Seismic Toss
    - Blizzard

    Once the Hail-lover now the Hail-starter, Regice took the tournament by force due to its stats and support from its teammates. On first glance, this set of moves looks like it could have been on a Blissey with the exception of Rest for Softboiled. This set works well as once thrown in, Blizzard is now 100% accurate. If the opponent resists Blizzard or has used Calm Mind then use Seismic Toss on them. Thunder Wave them to slow them down and Rest when needed to go back to full health. I myself would have used Toxic in place of Thunder Wave to chip away health faster but that’s my IMO.

    Next Tournament and Thoughts so Far
    Even though this tournament has ended it does not mean the experiment has. Sometime this week I will host another NU Perm Weather Starter Tournament on Pokemon Showdown!. If you are interested in participating in it, send me a message via my account on Smogon and I can give you more details about it.
    After I host that tournament, I will do another post of a brief analysis of the top teams in that tournament. From there, I hope to do a comparison between the best NU Perm Weather Starter pokemon with their official counterparts of Politoed, Ninetales and such. Thanks for reading!
    ~LibraSnakes13


    Thank you to Champpp23, brkman692, Leader Jasmine, baby kupo, Closet, Ryusazaki, Test @ll Day, le Umby, Jiodi, Techniloom. aweshucks, MJB, Vain and finale for participating in this tournament.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hello everyone! Sorry for the wait as I have been busy lately. Here are the results for the 2nd tournament, the 3rd one will be updated in a few days.


    Snow Warning
    Unlike in the last tournament, there wasn’t as much participants using Snow Warning as their perm weather ability. Regice was once again one of the pokemon used but unlike last time, he did not do so well. A pokemon that did do well was a surprising one indeed.
    [​IMG]
    Shiva (Tauros) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 Spd / 4 HP / 252 Atk
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Return
    - Rock Slide
    - Iron Head

    This set is odd for more reasons than one. First and most obvious reason is that Tauros is not an Ice-type, second, the participant, for whatever reason, decided not to incorporate Blizzard into Tauros’ arsenal and favored a physical attacking set instead (which makes sense due to Taruos’ abysmally low special attack stat). However, with that said, it should be noted that Abomasnow was also included in the participant’s team meaning that he could easily switch back and forth and keep the Hail going. Also, Tauros is not weak to Stealth Rock damage and does not have a plethora of weaknesses unlike its counterpart. However, both of them are weak to the plethora of fighting moves that plague the OU tier.

    Drizzle
    Drizzle saw the use of Miltank as a potential good weather starter. Though this team unfortunately didn’t go far in the tournament, I had the pleasure to battle this team myself to see what it was like. The result was quite annoying for me as Miltank proved to be harder to kill than I thought.
    [​IMG]
    Miltank @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
    Careful Nature
    - Milk Drink
    - Heal Bell
    - Body Slam
    - Toxic

    First off, the rather slow nature of Miltank means that if two weather starters were thrown out at the same time, she would probably get the rain started. Milk Drink is a reliable recovery method as Miltank can switch in to a lot of threats, take damage and then heal herself. Heal Bell is of course useful while STAB Body Slam and Toxic give a chance to inflict a status on the opponent and wear them down. However, like her male counterpart, the plethora of Fighting-type pokemon in the OU tier (along with Superpower Scizor and others) makes her a frail target if she faces these threats.

    Jumpluff was also used in the tournament though it didn’t do well. Mesprit was also used but more on him and his team later.
    [​IMG]
    Carracosta @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Aqua Jet
    - Waterfall
    - Shell Smash
    - Stone Edge

    Like Miltank, Carracosta’s somewhat slow nature helps him win one-on-one weather battles. His moves can also be a big threat against Sun, Rain and Hail teams as well. Immunity to Sandstorm along with a boost in Special Defense in the weather can also serve as a good counter towards those teams. STAB Aqua Jet can help him revenge kill while Shell Smash can help set himself up for a potential sweep with Waterfall and Stone Edge.

    Drought
    Unlike the last tournament, there were a high amount of Drought users this time around. Some that were used were Magmortar, Zweilous and even Alomomola (which was basically used for the lolz). One somewhat successful pokemon was Cradily.
    [​IMG]
    Cradily @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Seed Bomb
    - Recover
    - Rock Slide

    The success of Cradily can be seen in its reliable bulk, use of Recovery, Stealth Rock for support and finally a STAB in Seed Bomb and Rock Slide. The abysmal speed, though useful against other weather starters, can hurt it big time by making it susceptible towards fighting moves. Also, the lack of resistances (normal and electric) means that Cradily may have a hard time trying to stay alive if it switches into an attacking move. His low speed also means he’ll most likely be susceptible to another attacking move before it can use Recover.

    [​IMG]
    Rapidash @ Life Orb
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 Atk / 6 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Flare Blitz
    - Morning Sun
    - Wild Charge

    Venusaur @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 66 HP / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Growth
    - SolarBeam
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Volcarona @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 248 HP / 10 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Substitute
    - Bug Buzz
    - Fiery Dance

    Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 6 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Serious Nature
    - Overheat
    - Shadow Ball
    - Energy Ball
    - Will-O-Wisp

    Kingdra @ Leftovers
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 78 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Substitute
    - Outrage

    Cloyster @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Skill Link
    EVs: 252 Atk / 46 SAtk / 212 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - Icicle Spear
    - Rock Blast
    - Shell Smash
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]

    This team actually made it to the finals, because of which, I decided to incorporate Rapidash and her fellow teammates as well. When I saw how well this team was doing I was surprised mainly for the fact that Rapidash is a fire-type pokemon and is thus weak to Stealth Rock. However, after interviewing the trainer my questions have been answered.
    The trainer usually starts his team with Cloyster or Kingdra in order to weaken the opponent’s weather starters. Kingdra would also be able to abuse Drizzle if the opponent happened to lead with it. After the opponent’s weather starter has been taken care of, the trainer would then throw in Rapidash. Though Rapidash’s Flare Blitz, Wild Charge and Life Orb gives it much recoil damage, Morning Sun allows it a speedy recovery and make it ready to hit again. Volcarona and Venusaur served as the standard Drought abusers while Chandelure served as a block against Jellicent’s Will-o-Wisp.
    However, despite the success of the team, it wasn’t prepared to take on the champion of the tournament which used a Sandstorm team.

    Sand Stream
    Most of the users who decided to use a Sandstorm team went out the first round if not the second. These teams included Rampardos while two others used Regirock. Despite these failures, the team that won it all was one that used Regirock.
    [​IMG]
    Regirock @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Atk
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Drain Punch
    - Stone Edge

    Ferrothorn @ Choice Band
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 Atk / 8 SDef / 248 HP
    Brave Nature
    - Gyro Ball
    - Power Whip
    - Bulldoze
    - Explosion

    Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Iron Head
    - Fire Punch
    - Ice Punch
    - Trick

    Latios @ Light Clay
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Light Screen
    - Memento
    - Reflect

    Landorus @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Sand Force
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - Rock Polish
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Terrakion @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Swords Dance
    - Rock Polish
    - Stone Edge

    Regirock was a good model on what a perm weather starter should be. The presence of a pseudo-recovery move, Stealth Rock, a boost in Special Defense every time it switched in, reliable bulk to switch into an attacking move, lack of Stealth Rock weakness and three good attacking moves gives it a wide range of options and support for its team. Once Sandstorm was in place, Latios would be thrown out to use either Light Screen or Reflect. From there, the other pokemon can be used in order to set itself up, revenge kill or just sweep the rest of the game in general. What’s interesting to note was the use of Ferrothorn as a lead attacker and not your standard support moveset (which can bypass other pokemon that use taunt). One downside to this team is the lack of a Rapid Spinner along with a Pseudo-Hazer. If a pokemon sets itself up in time (whether that be through Dragon Dance or Calm Mind) the pokemon on this team will have a hard time trying to deal with it.

    It’s interesting to note that the four semi-finalists for this tournament each had a different weather starting ability (Tauros: Snow Warning, Rapidash: Drought, Regirock: Sand Stream, Mesprit: Drizzle).

    Anyways, that’s the summary for the 2nd tournament! I’ll update the third tournament and my analysis with it next time!

    Special thanks to: Bernard, f0kus10, themarchhare, aweshucks, Ryusazaki, baby kupo, Snuffie, Varis, MJB, Imanalt, Leo-Wolf, V4, Robot, Jiodi, Drying Pan and jas61292
  2. dudemaniscool

    dudemaniscool

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    This is a very interesting idea. I'd like to see what people would come up with if this gained some momentum. Seems like a tournament perfect for creativity to shine
  3. gamer40000

    gamer40000

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    Interesting, but you should post this in the NU forum, not OU.
  4. bluemon

    bluemon

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    sounds interesting but

    how does it help understand the current metagame?
  5. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
    is a Smogon IRC SOPis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
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    Uhh, this barely has anything to do with NU. It's just NU Pokemon having the ability to have permanent weather abilities. This topic was actually in the NU sub-forum at first, but then moved to here.

    I think this is an interesting idea, and I'd love if some of the winning teams were posted in this topic. I'm really surprised no one used sun in this tournament... one of the few flaws of sun is the fact that Ninetales has trouble switching into stuff.

    The weather starters for sand and rain were pretty questionable too. Yeah, Floatziel is pretty cool; however, it really can't switch into much, so it has trouble actually supporting the team with rain. I don't understand why Shuckle was used for sand, either; Regirock is quite a lot bulkier (other than on the special side), has no SR weakness, has a pretty good attack stat, and some useful moves such as Thunder Wave.

    The most promising weather starters are the ones who are bulky, resist common weaknesses in the team, can heal, and can do other stuff to support the team. Miltank seems to be one of the best Pokemon for this. While it doesn't resist anything useful, it's very bulky, has Milk Drink, and can even support its team by setting up Stealth Rock and healing the team of status with Heal Bell.

    Anyways, like I said, this will be interesting. I look forward to some of you guys participating in these tournaments! :)
  6. bluemon

    bluemon

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    Oct 21, 2010
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    i think the most important aspect of the weather war is STAYING ALIVE. so i compiled a small list of viable bulky pokes for each weather.

    all weather: miltank, lickilicky
    both of these pokemon have access to reliable recovery and are very bulky.

    sun: flareon, amoongus
    flareon has decent bulk with wish while amoongus has great bulk and spore

    rain: wailord, alomomola
    wailord is meh, alomomola is probably the best with its gigantic wishes and its ability to support

    sand: cradily, regirock
    shuckle sucks as it is a dead weight while cradily has rock typing to boost sp. def and reliable recovery regirock also get its sp.def boosted.

    hail: regice, articuno
    regice has the bulky, articuno is weak to sr but has roost
  7. Dusk209

    Dusk209 No relation.
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    I have to say, although I missed the actual tournament, the few test games I played when building my team were extremely interesting. I didn't have the time to make anything extraordinary but I had some fun with drought Emboar. Having 2 weather starters on the same team, a luxury that was previously exclusive to sand stream, was pretty useful for winning weather wars.

    I hope to be able to participate in the next tournament! :D
  8. Prplcheez

    Prplcheez

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    I've been looking at Drought Exeggutor. It's got crazy amounts of SpAtk, it's slow enough to win first turn weather against most pokes, and it gets STAB Solarbeam/Psychic with Synthesis for recovery. I think Magmortar would also be good with Drought, STAB Fire Blast off 125 SpAtk should do a lot.

    Might be nice to be able to have 3 sand starters on one team, as a side note.
  9. gamer40000

    gamer40000

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    Sorry, I misread as that the only pokemon you could use in your entire team as NU pokemon.
  10. The Reptile

    The Reptile ●▂▂●
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    IMO, the best pokemon to use for Sand Stream is Regirock.

    While he might not have a reliable recovery move, he becomes massively bulky in the sand, sporting colossal defenses in the sand (100/200/150 I believe). Not only that, but he also has a decent Attack of 100, has some decent utility options such as Stealth Rocks, Thunder Wave, and Toxic, and has StoneEdge coverage. Not only that, but he can use Drain Punch as a pesudo-recovery move. He can also pull off a Mono-Attacking set with Rest/Sleep Talk/Curse/Rock Slide or Stone Edge.

    Also, how do bulky electric types fair with Drizzle? Ampharos and Eelectross are both relatively bulky and have good Special Attack to abuse Thunder with. Another note is that Mesprit is pretty good for a general weather setter, with it's decent mixed bulk, good attacking power both ways, and a lower speed, which allows it to get its weather up first. It also gets access to good moves such as Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Thunder (for Drizzle), Blizzard (for Snow Warning), U-Turn, Healing Wish, and both Light Screen and Reflect. It would probably be best in Drizzle or Hail teams though, as it doesn't get anything to abuse in the Sun and Rock-types are usually better users of Sand Stream because of the +50% Special Defense boost.
  11. Axa

    Axa

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    Electrode actually feels like a decent Drizzler. It can abuse STAB Thunder, it's fast enough to outrun most leads, and can easily Volt Switch out. It can also Taunt, Light Screen, Explode and Thunder Wave- all useful for a weather starter.
  12. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    don't really have the time to post but this has piqued my interest so here's some quick musings:

    i can't believe that of the four pokemon presented in the OP, two are weak to SR while another is weak to Pursuit. Both are hugely undesirable traits in a weather starter.

    I think in a weather starter you should be looking at one of two things - either a really bulky Pokemon that can win you the weather war, or a Pokemon that can stand alone in a non-weather team and use the ability to increase his own offensive potential.

    Drizzle for example - if I was looking to win a weather war I'd look at Alomomola; stupidly bulky and semi-reliable recovery in Wish that can further support the team. However, a better idea might be to pick a non-Water type to increase the defensive synergy in a team already full of water Pokemon. Something like, i dunno, Cradily?

    For defensive Hail, I'd opt for Throh. Sure he loses 1/16th of his health through Hail but...use Leftovers? He's bulky beyond belief, has a Rock resist, pisses on most of the SS users proposed in this thread, and has a great phazing move. Far better fit on a Hail team than something like Snow Warning Regice which shares most of the same problems as Abomasnow.

    And if i was looking for a stand-alone sweeper who gets buffed by the weather...probably a Scarf Magmortar with Fire Blast/SolarBeam/Thunderbolt/HP Ice or Focus Blast. Pick shit off with your coverage moves and then sweep late game with that boosted Fire Blast.
  13. Pombo

    Pombo

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    A good Drought-mon would be the one who can: (you can adapt it to other weathers)

    -Win weather wars. This is kinda obvious, but its the most important point.Grass- Pokemon. They can hit water- ground- and rock- types super effectively with stab. But i wouldnt use Solarbeam as main attack. Also, pokemon like Magmortar (who can use a coverage move (thunderbolt) to hit opposing weather super effectily) should be looked forward.

    -Switch in and out with relative ease. Mesprit is really good to any weather, but it's Pursuit bait. Something that resists Dark- moves would be awesome. Also, a good weather mon should be immune to spikes or resistant to stealth rock. In other words, Flying- and [non Fire-, non Bug-, non Ice- type here] would be awesome. Sadly, no NU Flying- pokemon is neutral to SR.

    After all, my choices: Tangela (bulk aw yeah), Torterra (hits incoming fire with EQ), Serperior (bulky as f..., has lefties), Cacturne (sets spikes, resists Dark-), Magmortar (Tbolt), Emboar (Wild Charge), Vileplume (absorbs TSpikes).

    EDIT: what Lee said x)
  14. Dusk209

    Dusk209 No relation.
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    After thinking about it more, I think that Emboar is an amazing Drought user. He hits Abomasnow with flare blitz/fire blast, Ttar with superpower and Politoed with wild charge making it perfect for weather wars unless the enemy is using the less used Hippowdon. Unlike Magmortar Emboar is hit for neutral SR damage, making it easier to switch frequently during a weather war. It also gets flame charge, allowing it to boost it's speed to levels that are much better than Magmortar's.

    Unfortunately Emboar is constantly punished by recoil. This is the main thing keeping me from saying Emboar is perfect, lowering his survivability when attacking frequently. You can benefit from using fire blast in place of flare blitz if this becomes an issue, but you will get less power unless you invest heavily in special attack.
  15. Axa

    Axa

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    I might not pick a Grass-type for Drought - sure you have SE STAB on Fire-types' main counter, but you have no benefit from it yourself aside from Growth and HP Fire/Weather Ball, depending on the Pokemon.

    Arcanine to me feels great as a Drought-bringer. He handles Water and Rock types fairly well with Wild Charge/Close Combat, he has a boosted Morning Sun for recovery, and a powerful Flare Blitz as well as an Extremespeed to go along with it. SR-weak, but not much you can do about that.
  16. Showsni

    Showsni

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    Would Drizzle Eviolite Ferroseed be any good? Oh wait, he's RU... Never mind then.

    Lapras is pretty bulky, and could appreciate Drizzle and Snow Warning. It is Stealth Rock weak, though. Snow Warning is really only a benefit to Pokémon with good Blizzards... And anything with STAB Blizzard is going to be ice type, and thus have a lot of weaknesses.

    Maybe Rotom-S for Drizzle? Losing Levitate doesn't hurt it, unlike the other Rotom-formes.

    Sand Stream Shuckle does look pretty nice...
  17. StallMandibuzz

    StallMandibuzz

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    Sand Stream Shuckle would make even a Specs-boosted Surf coming from a Latios not be able to scratch Shuckle's massive defenses, due to the Sp. Defense boost Rock-types get with Sandstorm, and if Shuckle always brought a Sandstorm with it, it would be amazingly bulky.
  18. Plopper

    Plopper

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    What about Bastiodon? It's absurdly bulky (60/168/138 defenses- under sandstorm!), is slow, resists SR, is immune to TS and has a good support movepool including Stealth Rock, Taunt, Torment, Roar and Metal Burst. Unfortunately it has no recovery except Rest.
  19. StallMandibuzz

    StallMandibuzz

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    Unfortunately, x4 weakness to Fighting and Ground really hampers what Bastiodon can switch into. The same goes for Aggron and Probopass.
  20. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    I think some of you are way off base. The weather starter would need to make sense for it to be legitimate IMO. For example, Drizzle Alomololalamaola would make sense because it's a fish. Drought Exeggutor would make sense because it's a walking tree, of course it would want to bring the Sun with it. Snow Warning Regice makes sense because it's a block of ice and legendary already. Drizzle Mesprit....? How does that make sense?

    With that said, I think we should experiment with:

    Sand Stream Regirock or Shuckle
    Snow Warning Regice or Articuno
    Drought Flareon or Exeggutor
    Drizzle Quagsire or Floatzel
  21. Pombo

    Pombo

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    691
    Ice Punch Wooper?
    Sucker Punch Dugtior (i know, it's not a punch, it's an ambush)?
    Flamethrower Slowpoke?

    @Axa:
    The weather starter doesnt have to benefit directly from the weather to be effective. The weather supports the team, and the weather starter must do it too. Think about a drought team with 3 fire mons. Now give them a pokemon with 4x resistance to water and 2x resistance to ground (any Grass- typed mon under the sun). And you are set.

    The same applies to hail: ice-mons have huge trouble with rock attacks. So why not a Fighting pokemon (like Throh Lee suggested), even though it takes residual damage.

    The pokemon doesnt need to be a nuke or a sweeper. Most of those pokemon dont have the stats or the movepool to do so (hell, they are NU!). It MUST support the team.
  22. DDRMaster

    DDRMaster

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,681
    I'm thinking an Ice-type might not be the best Pokemon to set up Hail. Ice is a terrible Defensive type and most of the NU Ice-types are either too slow or have too little SpAtk to effectively sweep with Blizzard. I think something that resist common Ice weakness would be a better Pokemon to use Snow Warning.

    Frillish @ Eviolite
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpDef
    Nature: Calm/Sassy
    Ability: Snow Warning

    ~ Night Shade/Blizzard
    ~ Will-O-Wisp
    ~ Recover
    ~ Toxic/Trick Room/Taunt

    Frillish resists Fire and Steel and is immune to Fighting, three types that often plague Ice-types. Night Shade provides consistent damage while Blizzard has the ability to OHKO 4 HP Dragonite and max HP Gliscor after SR damage, meaning it will be able to OHKO just about anything 4x weak to it. Will-O-Wisp is to cripple physical attacks and the residual damage is nice when used in conjunction with Snow Warning. Recover is mandatory so Frillish doesn't get worn down by the Hail it sets up. Toxic can be useful for crippling walls better than Will-O-Wisp would and Trick Room is slashed because many powerful Ice-types are slow, such as Glaceon. Taunt is useful to prevent your opponent from healing off the damage from Hail and Will-O-Wisp, but isn't extremely useful due to Frillish's low Speed.

    There's probably a better NU Pokemon for this job, but I couldn't think of any.
  23. akela

    akela

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2012
    Messages:
    4,306
    I have been tinkering with weather teams almost as soon as I joined the site. Didn't really pay attention to the tiers, since, well, it's Hackmons. But the idea of forcing players into this situation is a good one.

    Probably the best one to use as a Weather Starter is one that resists or is immune to the moves boosted by the weather. I say this mostly because you do not know what is on the other player's team. You could be boosting their attacks with your weather choice. At the same time, you want to avoid one that is weak to the other conditions (or choose one that gets a boost from it).

    I've been leaning towards part water typing, but I think that is not the answer. Rather, it might be a type not associated with Ice, Fire, Ground, or Water.
  24. Axa

    Axa

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    402
    Piloswine, notably, is NU and neutral to SR. But it can't really abuse Blizzard and is still weak to Fire/Water/Grass, so I have no idea how he'd fly as a weather starter.

    Hail is probably the most difficult weather to start because of the very few fringe benefits it provides, especially to non-Ice types.
  25. aim2game

    aim2game

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2011
    Messages:
    38
    I would think Ludicolo would make a good Drought user, neutral to any enemy Fire Type moves boosted by the Sun. Gets STAB Solarbeam, Synthesis, STAB Scald for Burn or Hydro Pump for damage even if Sun weakens it. Can get a utility move via Leech Seed, Fake Out, Teeter Dance or Mist. If you want more coverage add Ice Beam. He isn't a super bulky Pokemon but Special Defense is 100 and he still has 90 Special Attack. The only thing that could make him perfect would be Encore which themeatically I don't understand why he doesn't have it. He is a Mariachi singer!

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