Metagame NU Stage 4: My Type

Kiyo

I'm curious.
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NU Leader
#1


Hello all, please use this thread to discuss the NU metagame. Thanks to Ultra Sun and Moon being released we've had a lot of interesting changes, please help the metagame develop by adding your insight and sharing any new and cool ideas you may have.

If you need an update on what's new in NU thanks to USUM check out this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-nu-speculation-thread.3620212/unread
 

Eternally

quack
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#2
I'm really enjoying the meta right now and I think it's at the best place it's been since the Gen 7 tier formed early this year. The influx of viable Defoggers in the tier has made teambuilding a lot more enjoyable and that's primarily because you can fit hazard control onto a team without being forced into using Xatu, Cryogonal or the mediocre Rapid Spin Hitmonlee. The best part of the USM changes is that every single playstyle benefited from the Defog tutor, Stall has new toys like Silvally-Water, Altaria, and Defog Cryogonal, Balance has the Defog Xatu + Magic Bounce compatibility and the Rotom formes (with Mow being the best, as well as Frost and Rotom-N being decent), and offence has things like Prankster Defog Whimsicott and Magic Guard Sigilyph which helps ease matchups against Spikestacking balance builds. After playing with the new meta for the past week or so, Defog Whimsicott, Silvally-Water, and Rotom-Mow have stood out to me as the best of the bunch, or at the very least I've found them the easiest to apply to the teams I've been making. It'll be interesting to see if any other Silvally forms can gain some prominence apart from Silvally-Water (though I doubt any of them will be able to eclipse the great typing Silvally-Water has for what it does), Steel and Ground have gotten a little use and seem interesting enough, and although they cant check the vast majority of rockers that their Water counterpart can, they do offer teams the ability to use a better Bulky Water-type like Vaporeon or Slowbro rather than relying on Silvally-Water to be the primary check to Pokemon like Emboar, Scarf Delphox, etc. Another interesting trend I've noticed in this meta is Double Defog / Double hazard control teams becoming much more viable. For example Xatu / Golbat + Silvally-Water checks virtually every Stealth Rock setter in the tier, while something like Silvally-Steel + Altaria can form part of a Steel / Dragon / Fairy core for stall teams. As the meta progresses I'm interested to see how our Stealth Rock setters adapt to this rise of hazard control, and if hazard based teams will undergo a shift in order to deal with these upcoming staples, Finchinator used a cool Mesprit set which deals with a lot of these new hazard control cores quite well and who knows, maybe we'll see more offensive defoggers such as Mesprit rise to the occasion. I'm personally a big advocate of Crustle offense atm, it's pretty easy to use and opens up a lot of creativity in building offensive teams, which is something that I enjoy seeing. Lycanroc getting Endeavor is also another boon for offensive rockers, as we now have a suicide lead that can outspeed and taunt Froslass while also performing what Lead Archeops does, which is Set up rocks and click endeavour.

Apart from hazards, I wanted to talk about a Pokemon that has really cemented it's place as one of the most influential and dominant figures in the tier, that Pokemon being Sneasel. Nothing changed for Sneasel as we moved into USUM, it still does what it's always done, click Knock Off against bulky teams, Pursuit trap Ghost- and Psychic-types as well as frailer Pokemon, and use it's Ice STAB against anything else. But honestly, a Pokemon like Sneasel doesn't have to do anything different, the tools that it has to it's disposal are perfect for it, and makes it no less of a menace than something like Delphox with multiple sets. Sneasel's always been good, but with Barbaracle gone it's much more clear how threatening it is when the tier lacks something broken to take advantage of what it does so well. The mere presence of Sneasel makes players think twice about sending in their frail Pokemon with the fear that Sneasel will just come in and trap it, it makes using Ghost and Psychic types that would otherwise dominate the tier a liability in matchups against Sneasel. Something like Sigilyph or Mismagius could easily tear up many teams and stand with the best of what our tier has to offer, but a Pokemon as fast and powerful as Sneasel keeps them in check, and forces you into a psychological guessing game before you've even sent them out. If I had to rank Sneasel's placement in the tier, I'd say that it's probably in the top three, and at a comparable level to Xatu in terms of influence over teambuilding and gameplay. All of this aside though, Sneasel is a very good component of the tier and one of the important glues in the current meta, definitely one to watch out for when making a team.

Finally, I wanna share this set which a friend of mine (joo) came up with, which has been super fun to play with, and works especially well with Memento Whimsicott.


Zangoose @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Quick Attack
- Frustration / Knock Off
- Close Combat

Basically, this functions a lot like Linoone in RU, except you've got Close Combat to completely decimate any Rock- and Steel-types that may try to stop you. +6 Quick Attack runs through offense easily, especially when partnered with hazards, (though you'll normally only need to get Stealth Rock up). Frustration tears through anything remotely bulky, while Knock Off makes you more self-sufficient and thus you aren't forced to use a Pursuit trapper (though it's still recommended to get rid of things like Mismagius, Rotom, and Haunter). The best part is that with Memento support from Whimsicott (The best and basically mandatory partner for this set) and the ability Immunity, you completely thwart any Defensive Pokemon trying to cripple you with Toxic or weaken you with weak moves, giving a pretty easy set-up without being put on a timer. I prefer running a Jolly Nature to outspeed and OHKO Hitmonlee before it can KO you with it's own Mach Punch, so I wouldn't recommend Adamant, although it lets you break teams a tad easier. Very fun mon to use overall, and it's cool to see Zangoose back in NU with a new, dangerous set.

Hope everyone's enjoying the meta as much as I am, and looking forward to see how it progresses as we move towards the upcoming November Tier Shift.
 
#3
Just messing around with all the nice toys that dropped with USUM and I think I found a hidden gem. Ever wish your Rotom-Mow could beat Druddigon, Vileplume, and Guzzlord? How about still being able to handle Seismitoad, Rhydon, and Steelix? Also doesn't get murked by Sneasel? Hell it can kill straight up kill Toxicroak just as a bonus.
Well I got the Rotom for you! Rotom-Fan


Rotom-Frost @ Icium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Volt Switch
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp/Toxic

While taking extra with rocks sucks, Fridge can blow away back some of the most troublesome rockers in the tiers and not suffer as hard on the coverage side compared to Mow due to fantastic boltbeam. However Frost isn't perfect and for every team, unlike its Mowing brethren, it loses out on straight up blowing away Piloswine (can burn with will-o-wisp) and struggles to defog against Miltank (can toxic) but that's what toxic and will-o-wisp are for. Compared to Mow however, I do think it's the better offensive dedicated defogger overall. I particularly like pairing this with Scarf Scyther as they handle each others checks very well and form an excellent VolTurn core. I can definitely see this being ranked in the future though maybe B- or something.
Warning: Only for Dons who can land blizzard
Calcs:
252 SpA Rotom-Frost Subzero Slammer (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Guzzlord: 858-1010 (146.1 - 172%) -- guaranteed OHKO

bop

252 SpA Rotom-Frost Subzero Slammer (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 328-387 (79.2 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Doesn't straight-up kill but does a shit ton.

252 SpA Rotom-Frost Subzero Slammer (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 440-522 (106.2 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

bop

252 SpA Rotom-Frost Subzero Slammer (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Druddigon: 566-668 (158.1 - 186.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

bop

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 121-144 (50.2 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

does a shit ton but can will-o-wisp back nor can ice shard revenge kill
252+ Atk Piloswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 60-71 (24.8 - 29.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

Burn this w/ will-o-wisp

252 SpA Rotom-Frost Subzero Slammer (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Toxicroak: 367-433 (119.5 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO

outspeeds by one speed point and OHKOs
252 SpA Rotom-Frost Subzero Slammer (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garbodor: 306-360 (84 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

defensive garbage gets picked after rocks
252 SpA Rotom-Frost Subzero Slammer (185 BP) vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 310-366 (88 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Depends on which Steelix spread but Steelix will only 2HKO back at best even with rocks damage.

252 SpA Rotom-Frost Subzero Slammer (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 566-668 (159.8 - 188.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

duh it dies
 
#4
ok so I'll recap some of the stuff I used/ tried the last few days.



I think it was ILCT that gave me inspiration to try trump Gumshoos. cool mon, crazy strong if you are able to get it in on something it threatens out. If i understand Stakeout mechanics correctly, this things attack skyrockets to 1050 with a choice band if the opponent switches.

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Gumshoos U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 114-135 (39 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
i know ferro is barely a mon and max physdef is probably not what it should run but thats still crazy damage
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Gumshoos Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino-Mega: 298-352 (72.6 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
not a switch in :x
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Gumshoos Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 344-406 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
if its not colbur, x

(+2 was to simulate the doubled attack from stakeout, because idt its implemented into the damage calc in any way)

forcing switches with this is fairly hard though because its bulk is complete cheeks, so any remotely powerful neutral attack just runs over it. still fun mon



v cute mon, OTR tears apart teams without a steelix. I have used fairium which is quite powerful even without boosts, definetly worth a try



sub bulk up is a nice wincon against fatter teams, breaks stall comfortably, but as all offensive incineroars, the offense matchup is cheeks as incineroar just fails to do any major damage, also naturally acts as a nice ice resists and whimsicott check, the speed is for non scarf braviarys and stuff that hit that speed, a max HP investment just for being the ice resist i said it was

donald (Gumshoos) @ Choice Band
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- U-turn

-------------

Incineroar @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 76 Atk / 184 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power Trip
- Fire Punch
- Bulk Up
- Substitute

------------

Aromatisse @ Fairium Z
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Nasty Plot
- Trick Room


to touch on the topic of defogers, the once I tried so far are Servine, LO Whimsicott and watervally. Servine is suprisingly reliable as a defoger, and generally does a decent job at keeping hazards of, even potentially paired with xatu. watervally is really nice, just keeps rocks of against so many setters and is probably the most reliable removal-vally, and as eternally said, defog is a nice filler option on whimiscott, to easen the spikes matchup.

Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ice]/ [Fire]
- Synthesis
- Defog

(spdef is to take on common grass types easier)

Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Grass Knot
- Psychic
- Defog

-----------

Silvally-Water @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Spe
- Surf
- Defog
- Toxic
- Parting Shot/ Rest
 
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#5
Okay this thread seems to be a bit dead which is a shame considering all the changes that have happened in NU in USM, so I'm gonna just detail a few of the fun sets I've been using to great effect.

There has been a lot of talk over which Silvally form is the best in the NU room and earlier I was getting a lot of stick for my opinion that Silvally-Steel is the most effective that I've found so I'm gonna go over the pros and cons of it and why I think it's a better Silvally form than Silvally-Water. Firstly I'd like to point out the sets I've been using, I peaked 1602 on the ladder, not incredibly high but high enough for this post to hold weight using a combination of two teams which had different Silvally-Steel cores.

and


Aromatisse @ Fairium Z
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Nasty Plot
- Trick Room

Silvally-Steel @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Toxic
- Defog
- Flamethrower

Guzzlord @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 196 SpD / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave


Vanilluxe @ Choice Specs
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Flash Cannon

Silvally-Steel @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Toxic
- Defog
- Flamethrower

Scyther @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Aerial Ace
- Bug Bite
- Knock Off


Now the main reason I received that Silvally-Water was better is that it was a better defogger, being able to defog on and 1v1 the tiers rockers such as Steelix, Rhydon and Piloswine, and poisoning Seismitoad with toxic. While that is true, I think it overlooks several aspects of Silvally's utility; those which Silvally-Steel performs better. Silvally has one main weakness across all forms and that is a lack of recovery and the fact it is prone to getting worn down through hazards and most importantly toxic damage. This is where Silvally-Steel trumps Silvally-Water because it's typing not only allows it to come in more often on Stealth Rock, it is immune to Toxic damage which helps out a lot vs opposing Garbodor which can easily set up tspikes and wear down a Silvally-Water.

Secondly, Silvally is far more than just your defogger due to access to Parting Shot. The two cores I provided attempt to utilize Parting Shot to put the most pressure on an opponent. In core one the idea is to Parting Shot around into your specs Guzzlord to fire off super strong Draco Meteors; the common fairy types (Aromatisse, Whimsicott and Audino-Mega) are all hard walled by Silvally. In this core there is also a TR offensive Aromatisse to clean up what Guzzlord leaves behind.

In core two we have a Volt-Turn esque core whereby Scyther and Silvally pivot around to get in the absolute terror in NU at the moment that is Vanilluxe. Scyther can clean up most teams once their Steelix/Rhydon/steel or rock type is gone and Vanilluxe takes care of denting and demolishing all of those mons, while Silvally counters Klinklang (not that this checks Vanilluxe by any means).

So those are my reasons to use Silvally-Steel over Silvally-Water, in short, you have to realise that while Silvally is a defogger, this isn't its only function and that while Silvally-Water can beat and defog on the tiers rockers, Silvally-Steel outstrengths it in every other role.

The second Pokemon I want to point out that nobody has mentioned yet is Strength Sap Vileplume

Vileplume @ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Strength Sap
- Sleep Powder

This thing is godly, being able to recover so much so easily while also crippling opposing physical attackers is so good - this needs more attention.
 
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#6

Hitmonchan @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch / Bullet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Throat Chop
- Rapid Spin

hi, I know that NU just got a ton of new defog users, but I've been trying out Hitmonchan and have been getting pretty good results.

- throat chop nails ghosts like Mismagius, Rotom, and Jelli on the obvious switch unlike cryo. (can't actually deal w jelli bc 2hko and wilo, but still nice ig)
- 252+ Atk Hitmonchan Throat Chop vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Mismagius: 248-292 (95 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Hitmonchan Throat Chop vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom: 204-242 (84.6 - 100.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- iron fist drain punch + lefties provides solid recovery
- deals with steelix, omastar, pilo, and froslass better than cryo. also is able to beat rhydon 1v1 unlike cryo.

Basically, Hitmonchan feels like a solid alternative to Cryogonal. It does the spinner with recovery thing and a little offensive pressure but is able to beat different threats than Cryo. Not meta-defining, but it's nice to have a fresh spinner. o/
 
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#7
silvally's good, here's why


Silvally-Water @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Defog
- Toxic
- Ice Beam

Watervally has probably been the most common Silvally forme used and for a good reason. It's able to beat pretty much every rocker and fits perfectly on balanced / stall teams. I really like Silvally's movepool and I think Ice Beam is particularly great since you're able to lure Altaria and Druddigon. I think water is the best typing right now since Fire-types and Sneasel are super prominent and most rockers are pressured by water moves, so it's pretty great to have a Defogger like that.


Silvally-Fire @ Fire Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Flamethrower
- Grass Pledge
- Surf

Silvally Fire is very interesting anti-meta mon because its typing lets it check a good amount of common mons, such aas Mowtom, Whimsicott, Sneasel, and Vanilluxe while soft-checking Delphox. Furthermore, its movepool is particularly great since it's able to hit pretty much every rocker aside from Druddigon with Flamethrower and Grass Pledge. Surf works well against most Fire attackers like phox and Emboar. It's a defogger for offensive teams which is great and I think it has a decent niche.



Silvally-Steel @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Flash Cannon
- Toxic
- Parting Shot / Grass Pledge

Lastly, here's Steelvally. I think it's a good stall pokemon that would probably not fit anywhere else from my personal experience. This typing is great because it's able to check Whimsicott and Vanilluxe while being able to remove hazards and use Parting Shot, which are all utilities that Stall teams appreciate a lot. I personally don't think that it's the best forme since I struggle to find any use for it outside of stall teams but it's still one of the best types. Grass Pledge can be used to lure and beat Seismitoad, but usually Parting Shot is a better option.

These three Silvally formes are my favorites, and what's interesting is that they all fit on different teamstyles. The addition of Defog to their movepool made teambuilding a lot more diverse and creative which I really like.
 
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#8

Silvally-Steel @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Flash Cannon
- Toxic
- Parting Shot / Grass Pledge

Lastly, here's Steelvally. I think it's a good stall pokemon that would probably not fit anywhere else. This typing is great because it's able to check Whimsicott and Vanilluxe while being able to remove hazards and use Parting Shot, which are all utilities that Stall teams appreciate a lot. I personally don't think that it's the best forme since I struggle to find any use for it outside of stall teams but it's still one of the best types. Grass Pledge can be used to lure and beat Seismitoad, but usually Parting Shot is a better option.

These three Silvally formes are my favorites, and what's interesting is that they all fit on different teamstyles. The addition of Defog to their movepool made teambuilding a lot more diverse and creative which I really like.
Maybe refer to my post, I used Silvally-Steel on two bulky offense teams to great effect, peaked #5 on the ladder. I feel like if you use it on stall you're relying on it taking too many hits as the games will naturally be longer. On bulky offense or balance teams you're simply using it to pivot and bring in your set up sweepers or wallbreakers to dent your opponents team, while still checking Vanilluxe and Whimsicott which tbh is so helpful on balance and offense since these teams normally struggle with those mons. Note my reasoning for using flamethrower too otherwise you're completely stopped in your tracks by Klinklang, and Steelvally doesn't really need a stab move to do it's job well.
 
#9
Tbf im surprised that these mons arent brought up much even though they're kinda obvious but im posting about them anyway since this thread is surprisingly inactive rof

Probably the most relevant additions in our pool of rockers are Palossand and Mudsdale which are kind of good both in paper and practice. Palossand's main selling point is it has usually the better matchup vs other rockers and its ability to ward xatu off. It also checks every fighting type in the tier including non banded emboar (without gk) and medicham, and also spinblocks lee for good. It also gets reliable recovery in shore up and also has eball to hit waters like toad for good unexpected damage. However, Palossand rly has glaring flaws to work with. It surely spinblocks lee, but that's the only hazard remover it notably stops, as every other remover may it be Silvally, Golbat, Cryo, even Altaria has ways of destroying it or statusing it, and even Xatu can 2hko it with grass knot so it doesnt guarantee beating xatu, whereas palossand doesnt do anything relevant back unless it carries toxic or smth (or it's vsing some silvally that gets hit hard by STABs). Carrying toxic is rly a pain since palossand kinda suffers from 4mss since i believe shore up and sr are mandatory, and you need both earth power so you could 1v1 lix easier and shadowball to hit xatu. Palossand also doesn't have the "Bird check" characteristic to be found in rockers like pilo,lix, and rhydon (and probs others) which you will definitely miss since its not rly easy to fit one or even forget to put one when your rocker doesnt check vivillon, braviary, and dodrio. Even with some of these glaring flaws, Palo could definitely be a solid B mon in the meta.

Mudsdale on the other hand, which i only know much in paper since i've just tried it in sm, seems rly nice of an offensive rocker. Same with palo, it beats other rockers but this time, by powering through them rather than just tanking thanks to its solid 125 atk and sheer bulk, giving removers a hard time and lets it ward off xatu as well. Mudsdale's Stamina also lets it check more stuff like non band emboar, scarf braviary, etc. It also has Heavy slam to hit the likes of maudino which is rly pain to deal with rn, and also nails whimsicott that tries to switch in. I rly dont have much to say about mudsdale but i think it's pretty underrated atm although it's not very good good, but should see at least some use and probably rise in the vr.

I believe the simple additions of new moves like rockers and defoggers, etc made the meta more creative and colorful, since balance and stall has more options now and more good defensive cores are now available unlike in sm where only few are good in the meta, which made it very mundane since mostly offensive teams are the way to go since they're very good. I hope more people play this tier.

Also advertise this thread better ;w;
 
#10
any thoughts on Silvally-Normal in this Meta. It can hold different items and got Hyper Voice as move tutors? Maybe something like this:

Silvally@Choice Scarf
Timid
252 Spe/252 Spa/4 SpD
- Parting Shot
- Defog
- Hyper Voice
- Flashcannon/Flamethrower?
 
#11
any thoughts on Silvally-Normal in this Meta. It can hold different items and got Hyper Voice as move tutors? Maybe something like this:

Silvally@Choice Scarf
Timid
252 Spe/252 Spa/4 SpD
- Parting Shot
- Defog
- Hyper Voice
- Flashcannon/Flamethrower?
Honestly, I'd rather use Defog Sigilyph if I wanted an offensive Defogger. Magic Guard and Flying typing means it's immune to all hazards, it's slightly faster than Silvally and hits harder thanks to higher Special Attack and free Life Orb courtesy of Magic Guard. I would not use Scarf Normal Silvally at all tbh - it's very weak, can't scratch most Rock and Steel-types and being locked into Defog is very exploitable.
 

Kiyo

I'm curious.
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
NU Leader
#12
Just wanted to echo Orphic's thoughts on Silvally-Steel, it should be functioning as a pivot and not a wall that needs support. It's typing lends itself to being a great switch in to stuff like Whimsicott and Vanilluxe, despite the latter being less common. The fact that most Whimsicott don't carry U-turn now also really bodes well for the Silvally user as you basically get your breaker in for free on a weakened foe thanks to Parting Shot.

If you're struggling to make Silvally work I'd encourage you to follow Orphic's lead and use it as a pivot, if history has taught us anything its that momentum based moves such as U-turn, Volt Switch, and Parting Shot are very low risk, high reward moves that can make any wallbreaker instantly better.
 
#13
Any thoughts on Tauros? Tauros is a good powerhouse for NU. I think Sheer Force and Life Orb really help it out.
I thought through of a set that might work out for Tauros even though bulky Pokemon such as Rhydon, Musharna, and Mega Audino really put Tauros at a disavantage.
Maybe this set:
Tauros @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Tail
- Body Slam
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake

I thought Stone Edge could help out for coverage also and pursuit if Ghost or Psychic types would want to switch out. I also thought of Iron Head due to Sheer Force however Mega Audino and Regirock really take the hits. However I think Body Slam and Iron Tail could put some Pokemon at a disadvantage. Also spikes and stealth rocks from Garbordor could help with some damage to the opponents Pokemon.
Let me know what you think.
 
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#14
Any thoughts on Tauros? Tauros is a good powerhouse for NU. I think Sheer Force and Life Orb really help it out.
I thought through of a set that might work out for Tauros even though bulky Pokemon such as Rhydon, Musharna, and Mega Audino really put Tauros at a disavantage.
Maybe this set:
Tauros @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Tail
- Body Slam
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake

I thought Stone Edge could help out for coverage also and pursuit if Ghost or Psychic types would want to switch out. I also thought of Iron Head due to Sheer Force however Mega Audino and Regirock really take the hits. However I think Body Slam and Iron Tail could put some Pokemon at a disadvantage. Also spikes and stealth rocks from Garbordor or Landorus-Theiram could help with some damage to the opponents Pokemon.
Let me know what you think.
Landorus-Therian isn't in NU it's in OU unfortunately, but you're not wrong in saying hazard stacking would support Tauros. The main disadvantage of this set is being unable to hurt Steelix too much which is why in ORAS Tauros commonly ran Fire Blast:
4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 159-187 (45.1 - 53.1%)
EDIT: with more and more steelix's running more attack for Xatu and speed creep for each other that calc might look a bit more like this:
4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Steelix: 190-224 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

My main problem with Tauros in gen 7 is it's speed, in ORAS the only relevant threat that outsped it was Swellow and then we had Archeops to match it which meant it could easily clean teams that lacked speed control with it's sheer power. In gen 7 however, there are now far more pokemon which naturally outspeed Tauros.

Pokemon that outspeed it naturally: Sneasel, Whimsicott, Ambipom, Cinccino, Sceptile, Minior and Accelgor
Pokemon that equal it on speed: Dodrio and Froslass

What this means is that Tauros is forced out a lot more in this generation than it was before as most teams will include at least one pokemon that outspeeds it rather than in oras when it was one of the fastest mons in the tier, this stops it from cleaning up teams in the way that it used to.
 
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#15
Lots of cool things have become meta now and this tier seems pretty dope right now. Only real gripe is that Zangoose may be a bit too much especially vs fatter teams where it can set up quite easily. Here are some things I've experimented with so far.


Sigilyph @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psycho Shift
- Psychic
- Roost
- Defog

or

Sigilyph @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cosmic Power
- Psycho Shift
- Stored Power
- Roost

USUUMO (canon name btw) has brought Sigilyph to attention and people actually start using it now. The defog set is pretty nice because Sigi easily beats rockers and spikers such as sd-less Rhydon, Seismi, Lix, Garbodor etc due to the it acquiring defog. The timid nature allows it to outspeed jolly Emboar and in games I've played the extra 252 EVs into Defense helps a lot. The other Sigilyph set that I've been using lately is the bottom one that's really annoying to play against. The set isn't anything special - 176+ speed outspeeds Mowtom and Hitmonlee and it's cosmic power aids pretty much. My team has both Altaria and Seismitoad with toxic so if I land a toxic on something like Houndoom or Guzzlord you can actually cosmic power out stall them. Sneasel is still pretty dominant in the tier which is the main reason Sigi isn't as good as it can be but they usually have to come in from a U-turn because they definitely fear the hard switch because of psycho shift. Random note that you beat Sneasel that attempt to knock you if you're at +2 or can switch out even if they pursuit you kind of so playing around the fear factor of psycho shift is the main way of dealing with it.
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Sigilyph: 210-248 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge damage
252 Atk Choice Band burned Sneasel Knock Off vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Sigilyph: 70-84 (20.1 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Pursuit vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Sigilyph: 174-206 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Altaria @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 72 SpD / 32 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Defog

Haven't seen anyone thoroughly talk about Altaria, but it quickly became one of my favorite defoggers. Some of the many positive aspects include being able to beat Lix because of Flamethrower, spreading status everywhere, and absorbing other statuses as well. Dragon/Flying is a solid typing out of ice obviously and it is pretty much the best Emboar counter in NU. I've paired Alt with Seismitoad mainly so far and a mon that can handle ice cream well such as Null, FATICATE, etc.

Here's a ton of sets I think will perform well in the new meta with and without new moves or w/e that I'm really too lazy to go in dept on
FATICATE with KNOCK WTF
Raticate-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
Happiness: 0
EVs: 204 HP / 128 Atk / 176 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Frustration
- Knock Off
- U-turn


meeps made this set and i think it's reaaalllly good in new meta because most teams will struggle to switch in for sure.
Magmortar @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Taunt


dogman ho seems nice, haven't had too much success with it on my own but my team also doesn't have water resists lul
Lycanroc @ Focus Sash
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Endeavor
- Accelerock


Double Defog balance is really nice right now too and these 2 synergize v well. Super fang + knock is always great I do the same with audino + bat
Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Super Fang
- Defog
- Brave Bird
&
Cryogonal @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 148 Spe
Bold Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Defog
- Recover
- Knock Off


not a new set by any means but pigman is really great
Emboar @ Expert Belt
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Superpower
- Grass Knot


I really haven't seen that many Xatu teams which is refreshing, pretty happy that we got a ton of viable defoggers so it's less splashable. Ban sneasel and sigi will run this tier for sure so do it iMO. Can't wait to see what people bring as seeded nears its end and SPL starts up :e
 
#16
Hi :toast:. I want to discuss a Pokemon that's been pretty controversial for the past few days days and that is:

Zangoose @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Quick Attack
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

I would first like to preface this post by saying that yes - I do think that Zangoose is very good and that it may be worth a suspect sometime in the future. I'm going to do my best to not rehash everything that Eternally said in his post, but hopefully go more in depth as to why I think that it's so good in the meta that we have now.

So, I think it's easy to see what Zangoose does looking at the set. It Belly Drums, eats it's Sitrus Berry and proceeds to sweep your team when certain requirements are met. Usually, these requirements are that faster Ghost type Pokemon are dead and certain other Pokemon have been chipped. This is easier than it sounds. First, I want to look at a core that is arguably the most effective core that is being used right now.


Zangoose @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Quick Attack
- Close Combat
- Knock Off

Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Memento

Sneasel @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit


The basis of this core is pretty simple. Zangoose obviously Belly Drums, Whimsicott is a wallbreaker that brings Memento support, and Sneasel brings strong wallbreaking potential and trapping support. This core is especially dangerous given Zangoose's list of checks and counters. This list includes: Rotom-N, Mismagius (needs chip damage or Fairium-Z), Pyukumuku, Aromatisse, Scarf Mach Punch Hitmonlee, CB Sneasel's Ice Shard after chip damage, Lycanroc, Granbull, Colbur Berry Slowbro, Ambipom, Gourgeist-Small, Haunter, and Golbat (Rocks cant be up or it's a roll). From this list of 13 Pokemon, Slowbro, Rotom, Mismagius, Gourgeist, Haunter and Golbat are Pursuit trapped or killed off by Sneasel, while Pyukumuku, Hitmonlee, Sneasel, Lycanroc, Granbull and Ambipom can be killed by Whimsicott. That leaves Aromatisse as the only Pokemon that dodges a 2HKO from either Sneasel or Whimsicott.

One point that I want to bring up it can be difficult to fit some of the Zangoose checks on your team. From the list above, you may immediately notice a few 'mons that stick out with their notable flaws. Ambipom is known for not being very good because of its problems against bulkier teams, Pyukumuku is only really usable on stall, Gourgeist-Small doesn't do much outside of check Zangoose because of its poor matchup vs top mons, Golbat got worse with all the new defoggers, and Aromatisse isn't fantastic because it's generally outclassed by Mega Audino. This leads to Zangoose being restrictive on teambuilding since the options are limited and some of the checks do not perform optimally in other scenarios.

I want to touch on some points that people have brought up about why Zangoose should not be suspected. Here is one example:
[13:41:25] PursuitOfHappiny: my issue is that people picture it as some unbeatable mon once it's at +6
While it is true that it is not game over when Zangoose reaches +6, I find it to be relatively easy to sweep once I kill the checks (mentioned above that it is not that difficult). One replay that I have showcasing this is this one. Tangy did not a reliable Zangoose check, and while the game did come down to a speed tie, it is clear that Zangoose can be a huge pain if it gets to +6.

Another thing that was brought up was:
"Zangoose needs too much support to be considered broken"
While I do acknowledge the fact that Zangoose does need support to be effective since it is difficult to set up without Memento support, I don't think that it's pokemon that needs as much support as people are saying. I have heard that Spikes are a necessity in order to pull off a +6 sweep, and this is simply not true. The only scenario that is relevant for this is Steelix. Steelix has Sturdy and can kill Zangoose with a Heavy Slam. While Spikes does put Steelix out of range of recovering back to Sturdy fast enough, so does any prior chip damage. I think that it is extremely restrictive if Steelix has to sit out an entire match in order to check +6 Zangoose (+6 Close Combat OHKOs). Getting chip damage on Steelix is relatively easy at the moment because many people use Steelix to check other 'mons such as Sneasel (Sneasel can Knock Off Leftovers), Braviary, Klinklang and others. Knock Off is especially dangerous because Steelix isn't able to get back to Sturdy range and thus cannot beat Zangoose if it is at +6. Spikes does not secure any relevant kills besides killing Colbur Slowbro with Knock Off after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes.

One last point people have brought up is:
"It's way too difficult to set up with Zangoose"
This is also not entirely true. While it is difficult for Zangoose to set up by itself, there are a plethora of options that enable it to get off a Belly Drum, this list includes: U-Turn, Volt Switch, Healing Wish, Parting Shot, Memento, and Encore. Encore and Memento are especially dangerous because they can lock an opponent into a move that isn't that threatening to Zangoose (like Toxic). I made a team with Block + Encore Samurott that actually won a few games because they were Encored into a move like Toxic or Shadow Ball and since they couldn't switch I took advantage of that by switching in Zangoose for a free Belly Drum. Memento is another important one because it weakens the opposing Pokemon to the point where Zangoose doesn't have a lot of reason not to set up. This list includes pokemon like: Samurott, Cryogonal, Golbat, Incineroar, Rhydon and many others (-2 Atk/SpA is a lot!).

Lastly, I want to share a team that I created that I think showcases Zangoose pretty well. Feel free to use it and make your own opinion on Zangoose!
Zangoose @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Quick Attack
- Close Combat
- Knock Off

Sneasel @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit

Druddigon @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail
- Toxic
- Earthquake

Rotom @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Trick

Silvally-Fire @ Fire Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Flamethrower
- Grass Pledge
- Parting Shot

Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Memento


Sneasel
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom: 198-234 (82.1 - 97%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 171-202 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 296-350 (128.1 - 151.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mismagius: 240-284 (91.9 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gourgeist-Small: 320-380 (127.4 - 151.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gourgeist-Small: 284-336 (113.1 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 204-240 (57.6 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Klinklang: 114-135 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Whimsicott
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Granbull: 214-253 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Pyukumuku: 174-211 (55.4 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lycanroc: 322-382 (110.6 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Whimsicott: 182-216 (69.7 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 361-429 (143.8 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Giga Drain vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 134-160 (38 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery - Enough chip damage so that Zangoose can kill
252 Atk Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Whimsicott: 138-162 (52.8 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hitmonlee: 265-312 (109.9 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zangoose doing damage
+6 252 Atk Zangoose Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 232-274 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Emboar: 339-399 (93.9 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252 Atk Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Emboar: 339-399 (93.9 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Zangoose Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 520-612 (147.7 - 173.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 313-370 (96.9 - 114.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Samurott: 273-322 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Zangoose Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 108 Def Hariyama: 617-726 (143.8 - 169.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Mow: 226-267 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock - Scarf Rotom
+6 252 Atk Zangoose Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 350-414 (88.8 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock - Waterium Bro

Zangoose the turn it sets up - Keep in mind it has Sitrus Berry and priority
-2 0 SpA Audino-Mega Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zangoose: 54-64 (18.8 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO
-2 252+ Atk Incineroar Darkest Lariat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 106-126 (36.9 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-2 252+ Atk Samurott Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 91-108 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 87.2% chance to 3HKO
-2 16+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 114-135 (39.7 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-2 136+ Atk Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 109-130 (37.9 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-2 0 SpA Xatu Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zangoose: 70-84 (24.3 - 29.2%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
-2 252 SpA Never-Melt Ice Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zangoose: 84-99 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 4.1% chance to 3HKO
-2 0 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 82-97 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO


TL;DR: Zangoose is extremely threatening with Memento and Pursuit support. It is restrictive on team building due to the nature of its checks. It also is extremely threatening at +6 and can sweep teams that have already been weakened and had its checks removed, it doesn't require that much team support and isn't that difficult to set up with Memento.
 
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#17
The Gen 2 VC mons are out, but this is the only set I could see having any potential.


Hitmonlee (M) @ White Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge

Works like a low budget Hawlucha, activating White Herb via Curse and attempting a sweep. It packs about 96% of the power of Life Orb + Reckless variants after a boost, and outspeeds every relevant Scarfer. Adamant lets it score KOs on Toxicroak after SR and Xatu. If nothing else, it's an improvement over existing Unburden sets.
 
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rozes

Tournament Banned
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#18
hello eternally bullied me into posting here so ill drop some quick thoughts on the meta since ive been playing a bit more recently

ive recently been laddering a bit with more bulkier oriented teams as i feel they could be cool atm, and also bc i wanted an excuse to use block pyuku + silvally forms.

let me first go over the stall team ive been using quite a bit


https://pokepast.es/7d154c703520ab7b

i basically started w/ wanting to use block pyuku which i feel is basically mandatory @ this point on stall. you are also forced to run shed shell as i learnt from watching disj flail vs a xatu that managed to bounce it back. sneasels also something i feel should always be welcome on a stall build mainly bc of how useful pursuit is in terms of removing slower offensive / defensive threats that are forced out. being able to remove non-tect xatu opens up the path for muds to get up rocks which just helps end games that much easier. the original stall build had seis > muds, but i realized that w/ usm and sr muds its a much better option for stall to use. stamina basically means you dont need to run even close to as much defense to check emboar (the current spread avoid the 2hko after rocks from flare blitz with the +1 def). it also has a stronger eq + is better at walling threats all around due to the higher spdef + def and stamina. overall idk how good muds is on non stall builds but i think it def fits on this one. audino is basically mandatory on stall as well, and on this build i can afford to run cm since i have heal bell on cuno and i dont rlly need flame for anything. i originally had xatu on this build over sigi but psycho shift is so nice combined with magic guard. cuno was the last and originally also had defog, but ive been playing around with other options like roar / haze / toxic in that slot. im still not sure which one is best and i think it requires some testing.

the team lacks a flying resist which means bu brav can be a bit annoying, but generally playing well to knock it off / annoying it with recoil / pp stalling with pyuku is the way to go. pyuku can run taunt > something in order to handle it better as well. or you could do rhydon > muds but its a bit harder to switch into emboar @ that point so im not sure what the best way to get around it is.

i think stall has a really defined place in this meta and it is probably @ the highest point it has been since beta. it obviously does still have its fair share of weaknesses, but i still think its at a great place. ive noticed some interesting sets popping up like sub bu power trip incin in order to get around pyuku once muds is a bit weakened, as are any set up sweepers that can get around pyuku. i passed this team to joey as well who ended up laddering w/ it a bit if you wanted to see his analysis of the build / his games here. i also have a few replays, though i am not usually one to save them so there arent as many as i would like.

vs eternally https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-666677505
vs tr https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-665832503
vs flame orb yama https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-665705211


also wanted to drop my quick thoughts on zangoose since ive seen quite a few ppl calling for a ban for what seems like a complete overreaction to a mon that is completely handlded by the tools we have atm. for one i think scarf rotom is @ the top form it can be in the meta since it gained defog allowing it to act as an emergency button with mons that are weak to rocks in the back / just getting rid of spikes after removing a garb / qwil. its also really hard to set up w/o memento support (even with memento its kinda dix) due to it having 75 / 60 / 60 defenses which lets just about any defensive attack ship it into something like sneasel ice shard / rocky helm / missy dazzle. many of the games i encountered zangoose / used it myself it kind of either did a little mid game / was completely useless / managed to sweep once every single condition was met. theres also been a lot more adapting to zangoose with a few more scypther popping up / haunter becoming a threat again (after eternally innovated it) and just generally ways to keep up the pressure so that zangoose can never really do anything. https://pokepast.es/ec8cd2cd1b41156f this is the main zangoose team ive been using if ppl havent had a chance to use it yet, but i do think the calls to ban it are completely reactionary and in reality its a high b+ / low a- threat.

overall theres a lot of really fun things to use in this meta, briefly touching on what i think r the top new dogs with usm include: defog z grass rotom / iron defense null / defog sigi / subsplit haunter are some of the few that i think were already near the top in sm and are just really fun to use right now with all the buffs they got. ive also been having fun with dual dance sawsbuck as it has the ability unlike virizion to put more pressure on offensive builds with agility, while retaining pressure vs balance with sd. here are some fun replays where it just goes ham, though its not as often as i would like it to be. 1 2

i prob wont post until eternally bullies me again, but i rlly like the state of the tier atm and i hope the shifts we have coming doesnt completely ruin it.
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
#19
hello eternally bullied me into posting here so ill drop some quick thoughts on the meta since ive been playing a bit more recently

ive recently been laddering a bit with more bulkier oriented teams as i feel they could be cool atm, and also bc i wanted an excuse to use block pyuku + silvally forms.

let me first go over the stall team ive been using quite a bit


https://pokepast.es/7d154c703520ab7b

i basically started w/ wanting to use block pyuku which i feel is basically mandatory @ this point on stall. you are also forced to run shed shell as i learnt from watching disj flail vs a xatu that managed to bounce it back. sneasels also something i feel should always be welcome on a stall build mainly bc of how useful pursuit is in terms of removing slower offensive / defensive threats that are forced out. being able to remove non-tect xatu opens up the path for muds to get up rocks which just helps end games that much easier. the original stall build had seis > muds, but i realized that w/ usm and sr muds its a much better option for stall to use. stamina basically means you dont need to run even close to as much defense to check emboar (the current spread avoid the 2hko after rocks from flare blitz with the +1 def). it also has a stronger eq + is better at walling threats all around due to the higher spdef + def and stamina. overall idk how good muds is on non stall builds but i think it def fits on this one. audino is basically mandatory on stall as well, and on this build i can afford to run cm since i have heal bell on cuno and i dont rlly need flame for anything. i originally had xatu on this build over sigi but psycho shift is so nice combined with magic guard. cuno was the last and originally also had defog, but ive been playing around with other options like roar / haze / toxic in that slot. im still not sure which one is best and i think it requires some testing.

the team lacks a flying resist which means bu brav can be a bit annoying, but generally playing well to knock it off / annoying it with recoil / pp stalling with pyuku is the way to go. pyuku can run taunt > something in order to handle it better as well. or you could do rhydon > muds but its a bit harder to switch into emboar @ that point so im not sure what the best way to get around it is.

i think stall has a really defined place in this meta and it is probably @ the highest point it has been since beta. it obviously does still have its fair share of weaknesses, but i still think its at a great place. ive noticed some interesting sets popping up like sub bu power trip incin in order to get around pyuku once muds is a bit weakened, as are any set up sweepers that can get around pyuku. i passed this team to joey as well who ended up laddering w/ it a bit if you wanted to see his analysis of the build / his games here. i also have a few replays, though i am not usually one to save them so there arent as many as i would like.

vs eternally https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-666677505
vs tr https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-665832503
vs flame orb yama https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-665705211


also wanted to drop my quick thoughts on zangoose since ive seen quite a few ppl calling for a ban for what seems like a complete overreaction to a mon that is completely handlded by the tools we have atm. for one i think scarf rotom is @ the top form it can be in the meta since it gained defog allowing it to act as an emergency button with mons that are weak to rocks in the back / just getting rid of spikes after removing a garb / qwil. its also really hard to set up w/o memento support (even with memento its kinda dix) due to it having 75 / 60 / 60 defenses which lets just about any defensive attack ship it into something like sneasel ice shard / rocky helm / missy dazzle. many of the games i encountered zangoose / used it myself it kind of either did a little mid game / was completely useless / managed to sweep once every single condition was met. theres also been a lot more adapting to zangoose with a few more scypther popping up / haunter becoming a threat again (after eternally innovated it) and just generally ways to keep up the pressure so that zangoose can never really do anything. https://pokepast.es/ec8cd2cd1b41156f this is the main zangoose team ive been using if ppl havent had a chance to use it yet, but i do think the calls to ban it are completely reactionary and in reality its a high b+ / low a- threat.

overall theres a lot of really fun things to use in this meta, briefly touching on what i think r the top new dogs with usm include: defog z grass rotom / iron defense null / defog sigi are some of the few that i think were already near the top in sm and are just really fun to use right now with all the buffs they got. ive also been having fun with dual dance sawsbuck as it has the ability unlike virizion to put more pressure on offensive builds with agility, while retaining pressure vs balance with sd. here are some fun replays where it just goes ham, though its not as often as i would like it to be. 1 2

i prob wont post until eternally bullies me again, but i rlly like the state of the tier atm and i hope the shifts we have coming doesnt completely ruin it.
where the fuck is staryu???

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also want to disagree to an extent, re: zangoose. i initially thought it was very broken, but was willing to give it time and now i am not 100% sold anymore. with that said, it is clearly more restricting than anything else in the tier right now and it does contribute a bit to the centralization of the standards in the metagame rn, which does not necessarily equate it to being broken, but can be a symptom depending on the situation itself. when it comes to zangoose, there is counterplay -- it cannot run knock and return, so either some defensive pokemon will be able to stomach a +6 hit or ghost types will hard wall it. pursuit support is nice and so is memento support, but you have to keep in mind that being in need of support does detract from the broken nature of a pokemon. ultimately, i would say it is at least an A rank pokemon, but probably A+ -- :cwl: @ thought of it being B+. we should not consider a suspect until after drops happen and we can at least settle for a little bit just bc of our current situation in a limbo of sorts, but i do think that it would be very realistic to suspect it after we reach a point of settling unless more means of counterplay or more measures that punish zangoose usage pop up in new metagame trends or the drops themselves.
 

Shadestep

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#20
also want to disagree to an extent, re: zangoose. i initially thought it was very broken, but was willing to give it time and now i am not 100% sold anymore. with that said, it is clearly more restricting than anything else in the tier right now and it does contribute a bit to the centralization of the standards in the metagame rn, which does not necessarily equate it to being broken, but can be a symptom depending on the situation itself. when it comes to zangoose, there is counterplay -- it cannot run knock and return, so either some defensive pokemon will be able to stomach a +6 hit or ghost types will hard wall it. pursuit support is nice and so is memento support, but you have to keep in mind that being in need of support does detract from the broken nature of a pokemon. ultimately, i would say it is at least an A rank pokemon, but probably A+ -- :cwl: @ thought of it being B+. we should not consider a suspect until after drops happen and we can at least settle for a little bit just bc of our current situation in a limbo of sorts, but i do think that it would be very realistic to suspect it after we reach a point of settling unless more means of counterplay or more measures that punish zangoose usage pop up in new metagame trends or the drops themselves.
Yeah, i want to echo this thought too. Zangoose seemed extremely busted at first, but i think we all have done a decent job adapting to it, and treating it as ‘just another set-up sweeper you need to somewhat prepare for’. I think the addition of Belly Drum Zangoose has been relatively healthy for the metagame, as it has forced players to quickly adapt their teams accordingly, not only to prepare for zangoose, but for many other new threatening Pokémon that have joined the tier or that had been around, but were fairly unexplored. The adaptation to Pokémon like SD Samurott, a plethora of different Toxicroak sets, etc. has made the meta develop at a high speed since the release of USUM NU. I hope to see the meta move on and develop even more throughout SPL and the following months.

The rising popularity of fast ghost-types such as rotom (scarf, defog wisp, electrium z), as well as scarf Haunter, which is surprisingly good, make for a more offensive and more dynamic metagame that’s developing at a high rate. We’ve already seen a high increase in Sneasel usage, which has lead to the increase of Silvally-formes, rising popularity of Mega Audino, and Emboar falling back into its place, threatening as ever. This whole jojo-effect is very good for the metagame as it allows it to constantly change and forces players to constantly adept and innovate, something I think NU had been lacking ever since mid/late ORAS.

Some cool pokemon that have gone under the radar as far as I have seen so far are definitely Braviary and Medicham.
They are both extremelty threatening and have their own ways of completely mowing through teams. Braviary in particular, is really really solid in the current meta, since it can set up on most of the ghost-types that are running around in the tier and beat them comfortably. (for example, most rotoms don’t run thunderbolt, but only have volt switch as their electric stab, which allows Braviary to be extremely threating since it can easily sub again on your volt switch, and be in against other pokemon with a sub and/or bulk up boosts under its belt.

Medicham is still super super threatening, especially LO sets, in my opinion. It can easily plow through most defensive teams with just its STABs alone, since they are so god damn strong. The popularity of Sneasel is really benificial for Medicham as they are great partners on any offense teams since Sneasel can pursuit and/or knock off bully ghost types and psychics, allowing Medicham to more easily spam HJK without much risk (heh). On the other hand, Medicham does not have much trouble dealing with Sneasel as a Life Orb Bullet Punch does insane amounts of damage; if I recall correctly, it OHKOs after Stealth Rock damage.

Really liked rozes’ stall team and the interesting take it has on the meta. I hope to see this thread more active as NU is definitely a metagame changing at a fast pace right now, making it an interesting topic for debates.