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NU Stage 5 - Zangoose Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Zebraiken, Aug 5, 2012.

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  1. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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    Hey there.

    Zangoose has been selected as a suspect for Stage 5. Everyone is welcome to participate in discussion and elaborate on your opinion of Zangoose in the current metagame, and whether or not it is ban-worthy. Please justify all of your arguments with statistical proof if it is possible (here's a link to a damage calculator if you need one, and here's a link to last month's stats if you need them as well). Senate members and rotating council members are expected to post and participate etc.

    While this is a debate and you are trying to convince the people voting that Zangoose is / isn't broken, please remain civil and have respect for everyone else posting their thoughts. I will not hesitate to edit / delete posts that are rude or insulting to other members. I will also not hesitate to delete inane or flat-out stupid posts, either (ie. "Zangoose is only #28 in usage! How could it be banned??"). I really would have wished this didn't have to be said, but if you don't have experience in NU, don't post here either...

    Anyway, this thread will be closed in a few days and the Senate and council members will send in their votes. Argue your hearts out.
  2. Bluwing

    Bluwing

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    I dont think Zangoose should be banned to RU, because it is outclassed by both Swellow and Cinccino one at one. And zangoose is quite frail as well, also I dont see to many Zangooses around, and I dont understand why bacuse it is an awesome wallbreaker and with quick attack it can revenge kill weakened threats and and kill frail sweepers. But all in all I dont think this is enough to ban it.
  3. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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    I wouldn't say Zangoose is outclassed by either. Zangoose is stronger than both, especially once Toxic Orb is activated. Swellow has a Stealth Rock weakness to deal with, and both Swellow and Cinccino have counters that are impossible for them to break through (any Rock- or Steel-type for the former, and stuff like Probopass, Tangela, Misdreavus for the latter). Zangoose's access to Close Combat, Night Slash, and Swords Dance allows it to theoretically beat every single Pokemon in the tier with the proper moveset and prediction.
  4. Majestic Electric

    Majestic Electric

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    This.

    Furthermore, Zangoose has perfect coverage with Close Combat and STAB priority to boot. This lets it easily clean up weakened teams.

    The only problem with Swords Dance is that it will be hard for Zangoose to set up because it is so frail and is easily worn down from poison. Still, the amount of damage it can do in such little time is amazing.
  5. Bluwing

    Bluwing

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    You dont run SD with Toxic Boost because you need the coverage, I will say that Toxic Boost is like an free Choice Band you are not locked into any moves but you have that Toxic wearing you down.
  6. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Toxic Boost acts just like an exaggerated Life Orb, in my opinion. it gives Zangoose roughly the equivalent power of an Adamant base 120 when using a Jolly nature, which while good, isn't terrifying. Rather, the most terrifying factor is its 140 BP STAB attack, especially when so few things in the tier can switch into it and not be outsped and 2HKO'd by a coverage move immediately afterward (Haunter is the only one that springs to mind) Nonetheless, it can still be played around fairly easily through clever switching, protect users, etc, to stack up Toxic recoil. While Zangoose's power and coverage is daunting, it's not unmanageable in my opinion.
  7. FLCL

    FLCL
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    Edit: After looking back at my arguments, I've decided to refute my statement of "Zangoose is broken because it beats bad players" because it was retarded, lol.

    I would like to being by stating that NU is not abundant with fast Pokemon. In discussions on #neverused and #nucouncil, one of the biggest points that was brought up is that the best way to deal with Zangoose is to revenge kill it. This is much, much easier said than done since only about a quarter of the tier is faster than Zangoose. Out of those Pokemon, there are many Pokemon which are considered as gimmicks or are outclassed . Running at least two or three Pokemon faster than Zangoose on a team is not an easy task, especially for defensive and balanced teams. Even if they get in safely, Zangoose can simply switch out and come in on a slower Pokemon to start applying offensive pressure. This actually helps Zangoose to some extent by resetting its Toxic counter. Additionally, Zangoose is not as vulnerable to hazards as people suggest. In most matches, it will only take around twelve percent every switch in, which, coupled with poison, is more than enough time for it to take out one or two Pokemon and switch out, only to come in later and get more kills. Zangoose either gets hit and dies or doesn't get hit at all. If the opponent switches in something that can tank a hit after a kill, why bother staying in? It rarely does nothing in a match, so preserving it for later can only be a good thing. Zangoose shouldn't be used as a sweeper, but rather as a hit and run Pokemon and wall-breaker. This brings me to my second point.

    There are a few Pokemon in the tier that are widely considered as "counterless", such as Emboar, Golurk, and Braviary. These Pokemon have something in common; their strongest set require them hold Choice Band. Zangoose doesn't have to be locked into an attack to be able to smash through Amoonguss and Alomomola. With Emboar and Braviary, all it takes is one wrong prediction for it to be put in a bad position, while Zangoose can simply just switch attacks. There are no viable safe switch-ins to Zangoose, so it's basically a game of prediction by switching a Steel or Rock type into Facade or Night Slash and a Fighting-type resist into Close Combat. Even if they do predict correctly, Zangoose can simply switch moves and beat the opposing Rock, Steel, or Ghost type. With Stealth Rocks up, Haunter is the only Pokemon faster than Zangoose that can switch in on Facade and kill it before it gets another hit in, bar Pokemon holding Choice Scarf. Golurk is the only Pokemon that can switch into Facade and tank a hit while OHKO'ing back the next turn. This forces defensive teams and balanced into either running Protect on an excessive number of Pokemon or be forced into an extremely risky prediction game. People are arguing to run priority and faster Pokemon, but the only priority attacks that will do significant damage to Zangoose are ExtremeSpeed and Mach Punch unless Zangoose is severely weakened. I've already explained how few viable Pokemon there are in the tier that can outrun Zangoose. Forcing the metagame to be this offensive is not healthy, therefore Zangoose should be banned.
  8. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    Personally I find Zangoose to be ridiculous, it has perfect coverage. It is fast and strong. It is managable, because there are a few Pokemon that outspeed it. The number of Pokemon that can actually switch into Zangoose are microscopic in number. So you're basically forced to revenge kill it. Whenever Zangoose is on the field the person with Zangoose has the momentum, the person playing against it is forced to play the other persons game. Bar a stupid player bringing Zangoose in on something it can't KO to begin with like Golurk. That is my main reason for wanting to ban Zangoose, unlike other suspects there is no real way to guarantee that you'll get momentum back. When the only way to defeat something is throguh revenge killing there is a problem. Sure toxic damage adds up, but Zangoose also has the ability to switch out! I feel like I'm kinda rambling now, so basically I think Zangoose should be banned because it always gives the user of it an advantage, unlike any other Pokemon in the tier. Forcing a kill whenever it uses Facade, and having perfect coverage is just to much for the tier. People who don't want it banned will really have to convince me, I'll read all the arguments posted here before making a final decision though
  9. Malkyrian

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    Most of what I have to say has already been said above, but I may as well add my voice to the mix.

    As I said multiple times in the nominations thread, there is nothing in NU that can safely switch into Zangoose. Even if you have something like Haunter that can take a Facade and KO back, nothing's stopping the Zangoose user from predicting and clicking Shadow Claw on you. Max HP max Def Impish Regirock has a 55.47% chance of getting 2HKOed by Close Combat after Stealth Rock and Leftovers. If Zangoose used Swords Dance on the switch instead, that's an 81.25% chance of an OHKO. That's a ridiculous hypothetical, of course, since no one uses max/max+ Regirock, but for an example that is more likely to pop up and should hit closer to home: max defense Alomomola - the most physically defensive mon in NU without a weakness to any of Zangoose's attacks - is 2HKOed by Facade.

    Zangoose has all the power of a Choice Band mon, off a base 115 Attack stat, with the freedom to switch attacks, and a base 140 STAB move with no drawbacks. It's essentially immune to status. It's reasonably fast for its metagame, and should it run into one of the things that outspeeds it, time for STAB priority. Unlike its fellow Guts abuser Swellow, it can easily beat anything that resists its STAB moves with only two coverage moves and a little prediction, and further unlike Swellow (and a lot of other threatening NU mons), it has no Stealth Rock weakness. And if that's somehow not enough, it gets Swords Dance.

    Zangoose is BL3. Overwhelmingly so.
  10. WhiteDMist

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    After reading the thoughts of everyone that posted in the suspect discussion, I believe that Zangoose is the only one worthy of being banned. While it is revenge kill-able and can possibly be beaten by well predicted switches, it will almost always get a kill. Haunter is the only relatively safe switch in, and only if the Zangoose user doesn't predict it and Night Slash. Haunter is still the best way to check Zangoose, but it is only a single Pokemon (and not even used as much as it should be).

    4 Attacks Zangoose is the really big threat, since it has all the power it really needs to clean up, and only Haunter can revenge kill it safely without being hit hard by a Quick Attack. Swords Dance variants tend to be much easier to play around since it has to give up either Quick Attack or Night Slash. This doesn't change the fact that it'll still get at least 1 guaranteed kill per match (unless you try and switch it in on a mildly strong attack). From what it looks like, almost everyone wants Zangoose banned so my input is a bit redundant. Still, I feel I should point out the other side a little. Of course, its only real problems are: its fraility, the stacking of residual damage giving it a time limit (its still long enough to punch holes into most teams), and the fact that base 90 Speed is good, but not perfect (Zangoose wants Raticate's base Speed). After thinking long and hard about it, I see that it is similar to Jynx in that it almost always removes at least 1 Pokemon from the battle. If that was enough to ban Jynx, then it is enough to ban Zangoose.
  11. Detective Dell

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    While I am largely, but not 100% in favor of Zangoose being banned, there are really lacking ways to cite solid reasoning to not ban it. It creates as much as an offensive impact as Jynx and Magmortar have done in the past, and look what the offensive centralizing have resolved for them. Likewise for them, their presence in the match would essentially lead to the removal of 1-2 Pokemon at least in high level play, and so further on possibly since the player can adapt around the Toxic count reasonably well. I can safely say that Zangoose is one of those Pokemon that heavily restricts solid teambuilding for the tier. It has the coverage to get past about anything in the tier, thus adding to the fact that it can 2HKO literally the entire tier with the right move. This also means that Zangoose doesn't have a real counter in the tier, and the ones that best stand out at exploiting what it does only remain as checks at best. The Base Speed it possesses are hard to overcome on standard teams, as most teams would only have a minimal number of Pokemon faster than it, as one of the way for it to rampage through is coming in on a Pokemon it outspeeds and OHKO's, or at least breaking through in the defensive department. Citation of vulnerability of hazards is seldom the case of a good argument, considering that Zangoose strives greatly at abusing them itself, making many of its check unreliable, or even fail at their job of doing so.

    Like FLCL have stated, there are a little number of Pokemon in the tier that can be labeled "counterless" under a vast of their circumstances. Zangoose's ability to switch moves, unlike the aforementioned varieties that carry Choice Band, further separates its job of breaking through the opposing team, and puts it in a lot less detrimental position if it losing in a prediction-based scenario case than the Pokemon that can't switch moves themselves. The opponent literally is forced to put itself in a guessing game most of the time against it, and must come out victorious to avoid a bad position, which is based heavily on player skill level.

    In conclusion, Zangosse is a low-risk, but great-reward threat. It not only centralizes the structure of teambuilding, but even the playstyle as well. All of which is more than enough to say that I'm in the favor of banning Zangoose from the NU tier.
  12. Amarillo

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    OK, I'd like to point out a few things about Zangoose that often goes overlooked. I mean, most of the good things have been said over and over, so do I really need to say it again? We know how Zangoose is good, after all.

    First, it requires the Poison status to be actually strong. What does this mean? Bulky Offense / 'Balance' teams abuse this by applying some continuous offensive pressure. Note that this pressure doesn't need to be all that strong; Zangoose is quite frail, to be fair. Zangoose without the Toxic Status will often fail to KO, take heavy damage in return, and from there it will fall to Toxic damage in a jiffy. Of course, you can bypass this with U-turn support, but then you need dedicated team support, plus good play.

    Second, when you say Zangoose 'comes in' on something that's slower than it, you mean that it's gotta be revenge killing something -- no one should be stupid enough to switch Zangoose into an attack, really. By doing so, it's a 1-for-1 trade at best! It's something that happens a lot with other Scarf hard-hitters, or even Cinccino. Yes, there's always double switch, but what happens if you screw up a double switch with Zangoose? It's still prediction and good play.

    Third, I know Zeb said to avoid things like "Zangoose is only #28 in usage! How could it be banned??" But now that FLCL brought up the point of "Many of the players on the ladder do not have adequate prediction skills to avoid Zangoose from KO'ing something every time it gets in safely" I'd like to bring up a counterargument of equal inanity, if you will. Many of the players on the ladder also do not think that Zangoose isn't good enough to be on their team. If this were to be banned, it didn't get just enough hype - at least from the perspective of the people not in the 'in' group. On the corollary, Zangoose did not have enough attention, if you will, for the 'pub' metagame to adapt to. Cinccino is overprepared for by a lot of second-tier ladderers, and it's been successful so far! If Zangoose were to be banned (and it sure looks so!) I think we need to hype it even more, make people try it more, etc. and make the general public to try to 'overprepare' for it. Cincci is definitely overprepared for, and it is now (relatively) manageable for most teams. I say the public has not gone similarly far enough to deal with Zangoose. Run bulky 90+ speed, people. Tauros is still good, so is Leafeon, etc. Switch them in after Zangoose gets a kill. You'll probably get a kill for yourself, too. Run more Gurdurr. Gurdurr is great in a normal-centric metagame like this.

    Finally, the perfect coverage and difficulty (if not impossibility) of switching in. I'm not denying anything here. I can't! But remember that Normal-types have been of incredible centralizing force in NU since forever. Bar very select physical walls like Tangela / Amoonguss / Alomomola (which are readily abusable, perhaps bar Amoonguss.) it's hard to switch into most Normals anyways. Even then, no offensive team uses any of the three. When all three of them were unpopular / not as viable, Normals were considered good, not broken. They could basically 2HKO most switch-ins with prediction, too. If they wrecked all teams without such physical walls, they would have been banned; they haven't been. I believe there are ways for offense to beat this Normal-spam, without necessarily having sure switch-ins.

    Urgh, not having written anything in a while makes this final point less clear than it could be. In short, Normals vs. offensive teams usually 2HKO / OHKO every switches anyways. Zangoose's extra power doesn't come that handy vs. them anyways. Offense can handle other Normals (faster, I might add!), and they can handle Zangoose, too.

    Hope this helps people consider both sides of the coin!
  13. Incon

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    Im really agreeing with what alot of people have said so far. This is my first time that i feel qualified to post in a suspect thread so bear with me :D. Like what everyone has said previously, there are no safe switch ins to Zangoose. Most of the tier is Ohko'd or 2hko'd with the appropriate move and since he has perfect coverage, its quite easy to accomplish this. Like Magmortar before it, Zangooses attacks have created a centralized metagame and has, albeit, made nu less fun to play in. However, unlike Magmortar, Zangoose has no real counter at all. Magmortar was countered pretty well by Specially defensive Flareon. Haunter is a good check, however if the switch into him is predicted, then its goodbye Haunter and there goes the best check the tier has to offer.

    Zangoose alone has made certain playstyles, such as stall, so much harder to accomplish with the force of his strikes. Certainly not an easy way to play in the first place, Stall has become so much harder because of the power of this one mon. This should not happen. In a tier where there are so many different options and variety in choices, (which is my favorite part of this tier) he has created a metagame where not even the bulkiest defensive mons can take 2 hits. Just thought id throw some calcs in of prominent offensive mons and how hard Zangoose can hit them...
    Show Hide

    - 252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (Neutral) Facade vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Amoonguss (+Def): 65% - 77% (283 - 334 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    -252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (+Atk) Facade vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Alomomola (+Def): 53% - 63% (288 - 339 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    -252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (+Atk) Facade vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Levitate Weezing (+Def): 65% - 77% (220 - 259 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    -252Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Sturdy Regirock (Neutral): 58% - 69% (214 - 254 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    -252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (+Atk) Facade vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def): 45% - 53% (151 - 178 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 10% chance to 2HKO.

    -252Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose (+Atk) Night Slash vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Levitate Misdreavus (+Def): 46% - 55% (152 - 180 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 17% chance to 2HKO.

    -252Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose (+Atk) Night Slash vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Golurk (Neutral): 86% - 102% (278 - 328 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 16% chance to OHKO.

    Zangoose is simply making what was once a very balanced tier, off-balance. It is better than Cinccino in that it hits harder and isnt completely walled by steel types. Because of what i previously stated and from evidence by the damage calcs, I vote, like mostly everyone in this thread, to Ban that fucking mongoose :D so our tier can become more balanced and allow for any playstyle to be effective.
  14. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Actually, having looked at the other posts in this thread, I think I'm going to have to reconsider my stance on Zangoose. While it can be played around, it seizes the opponent's momentum completely when it comes in, forcing them to play well or lose a Pokemon in the blink of an eye. That, combined with the lack of variety in offensive checks (Haunter... Gastly?) means that it's an absolutely dominating influence. Sucker Punch users can't even deal with it as they get mauled by Quick Attack. Looking back on my statement, although Zangoose can be managed, the effort you have to put into managing it is simply too high, and makes Zangoose a potentially over-centralising influence. The risks involved in using Zangoose are very low, and the risks involved in playing against it are very high. At this point I might consider voting to ban it, but I'll have to play a few more games before being secure in that conclusion.
  15. TLCJR4LIFE

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    How does the argument that it has no reliable switch ins make it ban worthy?

    First of all, Braviary also has very few if almost zero safe switch ins....especially now...ironically enough, that Metang is gone.


    Secondly, unlike Magmortar, Zangoose wears itself down and kills itself and is extremely vulnerable to priority and Scarfers. Magmortar at least had enough bulk with an Expert Belt to take a hit and continue smashing things.

    Even full stall teams can beat Zangoose by simply protect stalling and using things like Regenerator and prediction. I've done it many times....while conversely full stall gets absolutely obliterated by Magmortar.

    Also, the usage numbers are relevant, I fail to see how you can over centralize a metagame when you aren't even in the top 25 in usage.



    Another IMO asinine school of thought that just because weak players can't play well against Zangoose it should be banned.

    Zangoose isn't even the most applicable to that school of thought. If anything Gorebroom should be banned because any competent player can 6-0 half the current ladder with it.
  16. Django

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    The difference between Braviary and Zangoose is that Braviary needs to run Choice Band in order to be so dangerous. Zangoose on the other hand, still has the ability to switch moves, making it much more difficult to switch into.

    I think this is what the argument over Zangoose boils down to. It is certainly manageable through the use of priority (seriously use Gurdurr it's amazing), almost any Choice Scarf Pokemon, as well as running a few niche checks like Haunter. There is nothing wrong with running any of these, and in fact they should be found on most teams. The issue I have, however, is that on certain teams it simply isn't viable. No stall team will want to use Haunter as their Ghost-type, it is too frail to spinblock. A Scarf Pokemon is a nice commodity to have, but defensive teams can stuggle to find space for them, similarly for Gurdurr. The very nature of Zangoose's checks (>90 Speed, priority users, Scarf Pokemon) mean that most teams are forced to go offensive, to ensure they don't get molested by Zangoose. Because of this, the metagame has obviously become incredibly offensive, and made stall teams much more difficult to both build and use. Even balanced teams are seeming to struggle more and more, and I often see matches now that come down to "I kill one, you kill one, 14 turns and the match is over", which really does not represent a healthy metagame.

    Secondly, the argument that "bad players get destroyed by Zangoose, so it should be banned" is just...wrong. Bad players get destroyed by almost anything, and really we should be focusing on high level play between two good players: i.e. not the ladder. When playing non ladder games amongst the NU community, almost every successful team carries a Zangoose, and in every game it will wreck. The low usage stats are puzzling, especially when we are arguing Zangoose is centralising, but there are more to those stats than just numbers. Bear in mind that for over a week there was no working simulator at all, and the playerbase was somewhat split between PO and PS. Furthermore, both programs had issues actually collecting stats, and there were no ranked stats (1337 or otherwise) to speak of, meaning we gain no insight into the higher level of play that sometimes exists on the ladder.

    As for stalling it with Regenerator...Consider a common core of Amoonguss and Alomomola. Just from Toxic Boost Facade, Amoonguss takes 65-77%, while Alomomola takes 49-58%. Lets pretend for a moment that Zangoose got in safely with its Orb activated (I will get to this later). You have to switch either one into Zangoose, and then you have to switch straight back out again, as either Pokemon is getting 2HKOed. Switching between the two is not an option, they will lose before Zangoose dies. So now you need something else to switch into Facade, likely Regirock or similar. At this point you have used 3 Pokemon to check Zangoose, and even then it is not certain you will win, as some good predictions from Zangoose will beat these three.

    The one thing stopping me from wanting to just outright ban Zangoose is the trouble it has switching in. It is not bulky by any stretch of the imagination, and has no resists to speak of, albeit one immunity. Ghost is not a particularly common attacking type, and no decent player is going to be spamming a Ghost-type move when they can see a Zangoose on the other team. The most reliable way to get Zangoose in safe is a slow Volt Switch or U-Turn from the likes of Eelektross (or a double switch if you are capable). It is also possible to bring it in to revenge kill a very weak opponent, using Quick Attack to activate the Orb. The last option is not a favorable situation, as Zangoose then becomes one of those one for one Pokemon, and there are a number of those in NU. This struggle to get in is the only thing really holding Zangoose back, and is the reason I am still on the fence about it.
  17. TLCJR4LIFE

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    I used Bastiodon and it worked fine. And on top of it, I carried Hydration Aloma, Reg Amoonguss and Bastiodon and ALL THREE carried protect. Zangoose was a complete non issue. He died. Not to mention Golem has Sucker Punch if you are using that. Also, after Bastiodon Protects itself, it gets back into Sturdy range, so it can take yet another hit and stall Zangoose singlehandedly at least 4 turns.

    Whether it be to Rocks + Toxic or just killing him with Electrode after he took down a mon.

    And this was a gimmicky weather stall team, let alone a well built stall team.

    If you have awareness of what the meta is like and you have the ability to carry Protect but don't, then it's hard to say a mon is overcentralizing anything.

    Zangoose isn't the almighty threat to stall. Stall was hurt tremendously by Magmortar and even now, things like CM Musharna with Heal Bell support are still much bigger threats. Mixed Emboar also presents similar problems that Magmortar did, and it's picking up in usage.
  18. Django

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    The problem with Bastiodon + Alomomola + Amoonguss is that one wrong prediction when switching to Bastiodon and you will lose. Even if you do carry protect on all three, there is nothing stopping the Zangoose user from using Close Combat at you switch to Bastiodon. Revenge killing it with Electrode is also a very poor argument, as any Pokemon in the game can be revenge killed, it should not normally be large part of a suspect discussion. Not to mention Electrode is a pretty average Pokemon in general, and only really gets any usage now because of how popular Cinccino and Swellow are. The fact you are running 3 walls with Protect, alongside a Pokemon that only gets usage because it is faster then big threats, to me screams of overpreparation. You've used up 4/6 of a team to check Zangoose, and already I can see some pretty big issues with that team and how it can adequetely deal with the rest of the metagame.

    Carrying Protect on one Pokrmon is not centralising, but running it on half a team and even on Amoonguss, a Pokemon who has so many better options in its final slot (Stun Spore, HP Fire or Ice, even Substitute), is exactly the kind of negative effect Zangoose has on the metagame.

    Finally, how on earth is Zangoose not a threat to stall? Every time it gets in you have to make a prediction, get it wrong and you lose a wall, which will often leave you open to something else. Stall teams hit no where near as hard as offensive teams by nature, and so Zangoose has a much easier time switching in, and Zangoose will also more often than not outspeed 5/6 Pokemon on a stall team. I fail to see how it is a non issue when it outspeeds and 2HKOs every Pokemon commonly seen on stall, and the stall team will often struggle to do anything back.
  19. Django

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    Double post, but I'm using this to make something clear:

    This is a serious suspect discussion, not a place to ridicule others arguments, or indeed to make aruguments with no logical basis. Any further terrible posts such as the previous few will be dealt with via infractions, not simply deleting as has just been done. Pick up the quality in this thread please, and actually make posts that make sense.
  20. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Okay stop.

    So let's review what you're saying here. In order to check Zangoose you needed:

    - Hydration Alomomola
    - Protect Amoonguss
    - Bastidon, who may I remind you is terrible enough to be x4 weak to Fighting-type attacks

    Nevermind that Hydration Alomomola alone is screaming agony since Regenerator helps Alomomola obtain +33% health on a switch, thus allowing it to repeatedly take physical abuse to a point.

    Bastidon having to "stall" for 4 turns is utterly absurd. In order for Bastidon to even do whatever the hell you plan on it doing, Bastidon would have to switch in AS ZANGOOSE IS SWITCHING IN! If Zangoose is out on the field, Bastidon can't switch into Facade if Stealth Rock is on the field. All Zangoose has to do is hit Bastidon, then add that to 6% from Stealth Rock, and Bastidon would have to stall roughly 2-3 turns to get right back into Sturdy range. The only possible way of doing what you want Bastidon to do is having a Wish passed straight to it, and if the Zangoose player predicts a Bastidon switch-in, CC is going to shut Bastidon down before it gets its Wish off.

    As for Amoonguss, having to run Protect on it just proves how trivializing Zangoose can be to the metagame. Like Django said - Protect isn't really a necessity on Amoonguss to begin with. It would much rather be using something like Double Powder or Clear Smog. Before arguing "well you can use all three", what about the loss of Hidden Power? You could even have a weather slot since Amoonguss is sturdy enough to take advantage of it. Loss of Synthesis can also suck since it means you can't stick around.
    But that's part of the problem - Zangoose already took down a Pokemon, and what stops Zangoose from switching out on Electrode? Electrode hates just about every Ground-type since its Rain Dance support set doesn't do jack shit to a Ground-type (except Taunt it) and Hidden Power Ice isn't going to completely shut everything down, either. Nevermind that the Life Orb set Electrode isn't even 3HKOing Regirock with STAB Thunderbolt...
    This doesn't help your argument. If anything, it actually harms it even more. First, you're being somewhat contradictory. You mentioned it was a "gimmicky weather stall team", but also state it was a "well built stall team". For one, Electrode / Hydration Alomomola / Bastidon / Amoonguss alone don't make a very good defensive core. I would rather use Regenerator for Alomomola, put Regirock in Bastidon's slot, and slap something like Heal Bell Miltank to cure status problems. For another, having to use "gimmicks" to overcome Pokemon such as Zangoose should further prove just how much of a liability Zangoose can be in NU.
    What? Even though every single Pokemon has access to Protect in OU, barring Wobbuffet, not every Pokemon in stall carries it despite Pokemon in the tier having ridiculous stuff like Choice Band Outrages and the like. Having to carry Protect constantly on different Pokemon, or should I dare say, all of them is a completely liability and should further prove just how menacing Zangoose really is to the metagame. The simple point of Zangoose being able to OHKO-2HKO the vast majority of the metagame including the vast majority of walls, have enough Speed, an access to a priority attack, and even Swords Dance if you seriously wanted to bust walls even further shows just how centralizing Zangoose can be. You can't even stop Zangoose via sleep or burn like you can with a lot of sweepers in OU.
    Zangoose can almost play blindfolded and, while not destroying stall, puts tremendous dents in it if the person controlling stall isn't careful. The person using stall has to resort to somewhat gimmicky tactics such as stalling out the process via Protect or careful predictions into certain Pokemon, or even going as far as packing a Pokemon with base 140 Speed that can't wall worth squat without dual screens. Yes, it -is- possible to handle Zangoose if you play your cards right. Though, what stops a Zangoose player from carrying Wish-passing just to keep Zangoose healthy and to keep going? Nevermind that the constant Protect using could give way to easy switch-ins, and using Swords Dance can probably bust through the team's chops too.

    Like a lot of threats in OU, I won't deny that Zangoose does provide some sort of centralizing and that it is possible to stop. The problem is that it usually involves sacking a Pokemon constantly if the process is revenge killing or having to possibly resort to gimmicky tactics within stall (stall is not gimmicky even in NU, but having to use Protect on just about everything when you might not be Toxic stalling is) proves that Zangoose is putting an affect on your team and team building process. Also, if Protect became too big of a deal I could always pack Taunt on Zangoose and stop that idea cold.

    (Hopefully this post wasn't too terrible...).
  21. ChaoticaMortis

    ChaoticaMortis

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    I chose not to jump into this thread like I did with the other two on our current suspects because I had little experience with Zangoose and didn't want to make myself look stupid. Now that we've actually got discussion going on and I've had the chance to read people's opinion on the matter, I'd say it's time for me to post.
    To be frank, Zangoose is a monster. For a long time I thought Ursaring would be broken if it was just a little bit faster. Well, welcome to Zangoose, a Pokemon that outspeeds about 3/4 of the tier and can virtually run the exact same set as Ursaring, with just a slightly lower Atk stat (Swords Dance makes that negligible, though). To me, this seems insane. Yeah, priority rips that set apart, but it isn't really meant for long sweeps; it's meant for breaking down walls. SD Zangoose is hands-down the best wallbreaker in the tier, and it is going to KO something almost every time it's used. More defensive teams might as well forfeit when they see Zangoose on the opponent's side.
    The 4 Attacks set isn't quite as powerful as the SD one, but it practically eliminates Skuntank and Absol from Zangoose's list of counters, as well as many other users of priority. While not as threatening to defensive teams, this variant of Zangoose tears apart offensive teams quite well. Almost too well. I've got to admit, nothing bar scarfers can really stop this thing from my experience. Yeah, you can stall out the Toxic and force a few decent switches with good enough prediction, but if that's the best argument we have for Zangoose then it should be obvious what we need to do with him.
    No, I'm not the most insightful on this Pokemon, but I do believe that it is harmful to our current metagame. If we let it stay, the negatives would only become more apparent as many other users started placing it on their teams. Yes, things like Gorebyss and Cinccino were Pokemon NU easily adapted to. Zangoose, however, seems to be more like Jynx to me: a Pokemon with enormous offensive capabilities that we just cannot handle (don't take this as a Zangoose = Jynx statement, it's not). I'm going to have to support the ban of Zangoose from NU.
  22. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Prediction is part of the game. Often matches are decided through good predicting. To beat Zangoose, you need good prediction. However, there's a point where it gets too ridiculous, which is in the case of Zangoose.

    Before you compare Zangoose to any old super-powerful choice user such as Braviary or Emboar, consider the following things:
    • Zangoose is fast
    • Zangoose has very powerful priority
    • Zangoose can switch moves
    • Zangoose is not effected by status once Toxic Orb is activated

    Zangoose can easily break down teams and is a big threat to offense, balanced and stall alike. Facade, Zangoose's main move, is incredibly powerful. You can switch-in resistances, but guess what? Those resistances will be taking quite a lot of damage from just Facade. Regirock, for example, takes 25% MINIMUM from Facade. It can then be beaten by Close Combat after Stealth Rock, or maybe not even Stealth Rock because Regirock is worn down easily and Zangoose is usually sent out mid to late-game. That's another thing: the Rock- and Steel-types that check Zangoose not only take quite a bit from Facade and die to Close Combat, they are all easily worn down. You can switch around your teammates against Zangoose to let it kill itself via Toxic damage, but eventually you're probably going to get outpredicted and lose a Pokemon or two, and even if you don't get outpredicted, Zangoose has weakened a ton of things. Ghost-types do slightly better, but even stuff like Golurk and Drifblim are easily worn down. Haunter is a excellent check, but it only takes one Night Slash to kill it.

    While 90 base Speed can still be outsped by quite a few things, most of the Pokemon that can outspeed Zangoose share something in common: almost all of them are very frail themselves. That means that Quick Attack can easily take care of them once they're weakened, and most Pokemon that are that fast tend to get weakened pretty quickly by just attacking. Priority users aren't the best answer against Zangoose, either, because Zangoose can bypass Sucker Punch and outspeed all other priority besides ExtremeSpeed Linoone, Quick Attack Swellow, and Aqua Jet Floatzel.

    The ease in which Zangoose breaks through a team and sweeps late-game is not matched by anything else. It's too overwhelming for the tier and turns many games into prediction wars. Zangoose can consistently break down teams without much team support. I'm likely going to be voting ban.
  23. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    Originally, I was going to consider not posting in these Suspect Discussions. I've barely used Cinccino and Amoongus (I do use Amoongus in OU, but OU =/= NU), so I cannot be qualified to speak on both of them. Most of my experience with NU mons is dragging them to upper tiers like RU, UU, and Ubers to see how well they fare in those tiers, and wonder why they're not used much. The other experiences? Well, this Round I mostly just dealt with playing with Golurk and Zangoose, since they got new toys in B2W2.

    However, there was this particular post where I wanted to post counterarguments to. Knowing full well most of it already agrees with other people, I still post it anyway as I feel the need to agree with more-skilled people.

    *takes a deep breath*

    Okay, where was I? Oh, right.

    Zangoose is someone who does not take that much skill to use. Not because people in NU are terrible, but because you force yourself to run Pokemon who do not fit into a defensive team by any means in order to "check" it. Zangoose is also speedier than some of the other Pokemon that enjoy being burnt/poisoned, and can also maul them thusly (while also being much better than the other Pokemon when it comes to teambuilding; so far in NU I've ignored Swellow and Ursaring, because of Zangoose).

    Zangoose has no safe switch-ins bar Haunter, and Haunter isn't going to live to a smart Zangoose player because of Night Slash/Shadow Claw. Unlike other physical sweepers, who depend on Choice Band, Zangoose can reliably change moves on a whim. Which means it's much less likely to be walled even by Haunter.

    Most of my arguments already agree with other people, and so shall my verdict: Ban Zangoose.
  24. GreyLacewing

    GreyLacewing

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    As a dedicated stall player myself (and another one of those players who feel they finally have sufficient experience to post in suspect threads) I must wholeheartedly agree with the above posts that stall is indeed completely ruined by Zangoose, assuming it gets the toxic status. Whilst there is not much to be said that has not already been, I would like to discuss how my team "deals" with zangoose.

    As I stated in the original suspect thread, my team, with which I have managed to enter the top ten on occasion on PS, must resort to making absolutely sure that not even stealth rock is on the field, and then sacrificing a pokemon to bring in golem with sturdy intact so he can earthquake + sucker punch to defeat the zangoose. This is an extremely difficult task, and often leaves me open to other threats that are normally handled by the other pokemon and golem. I might further add that this occurs even against persons with extremely low ladder scores, as it's really the zangoose doing the work, and not them. Also, switching between Golem and Missy to wear down the toxic timer is not effective, as the opponent usually catches on after 3 or so turns.

    There are a few other ways (burn/para/damage on the switch, trick) my team can beat it, but they are highly situational, and not at all reliable, as the player more often lets me kill a pokemon so they can bring him in. Stall generally cannot counter him, without either running a niche counter or losing at least one pokemon, regardless of the opponents skill. Please, please ban.
  25. JacobJinglepocket

    JacobJinglepocket

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    Oh, Zangoose. It's always been a favorite mon of mine, though more so for its cool looking sprite than anything else. Now look at you: shattering every Pokemon you come across that doesn't outspeed you, 2HKOing everything in your path (fun fact: the only 4 mons in NU that aren't 2HKO'd by +0 Zangoose are Shuckle (35.65-41.8%), defensive Armaldo(37-43.5%), Tangela(41.61-48.8%), and Wormadam-S(41.66-49.07%)--all of which become 2HKOs with Stealth Rock on the field).

    So, yeah, Zangoose is fucking ridiculous. Nothing truly counters it, and its possible checks are raped by the right coverage move. The sheer power granted by Toxic Boost gives it Attack power equal to a Choice Band without being forced into one move, unlike other 'counterless' mons like Emboar and Braviary. 'Goose's only real disadvantage is being difficult to switch in thanks to its paper-thin defenses, and even that can be played around with slow U-Turn/Volt Switches from the likes of Eelektross and Probopass. In short, Zangoose should be banned.
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