1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

NU Stats: December 2012

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Django, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. oSeasons

    oSeasons
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2012
    Messages:
    121
    I don't particularly mind Amoonguss' departure from NU because it can be easily replaced with Roselia but Emboar on the other hand, is irreplaceable so it will be greatly missed. IMO, it was the only viable fire-type in the whole tier :/
  2. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2012
    Messages:
    437
    Roselia can't replace Amoonguss, as it fails to counter Physical Attackers that well, and doesn't have a 100% accurate Sleep inducing move.
  3. IceSpade

    IceSpade

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Messages:
    227
    Really happy to try out a new metagame with lots of Pokemon gone , new toys in Roselia and Stoutland (although Stoutland won't be used much I think).

    Hail was fun, would have appreciated if it stayed but oh well. At least I don't have to rage getting stalled by Glaceon and Walrein anymore.

    Cinccino leaving is bad and good, on one hand it was fun smashing everything with a Sub or Sturdy, but on the other hand now I can use some good Sub users without fearing Cinccino anymore.

    Emboar, I've been using it since I started playing, I had fun with all of its sets, CB wrecks stall, Scarf wrecks some offense, and I was using SubSpecial Emboar before it was cool (or should I say hail). So sad to see him go. :( :( :(

    Absol leaving is ok I guess, no more 130 Atk Life Orb and SD boosted STAB Priority to wreck my teams. Never used it anyway because I'm more of a Skuntank guy.

    Not a DeepSeaScale Amoonguss user, but I've actually enjoyed using Amoonguss in RU along with Slowking, in NU everything is prepared for it but I've surprised a lot in RU with Amoonguss bulk and double powders. Good riddance for NU.

    Roselia would be fun for a change, its pretty bulky (but not Amoonguss bulky), gonna use it in my teams now!

    Stoutland is boring. I'd rather use Tauros or Kangaskhan.
  4. urdrakonis

    urdrakonis

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    126
    Thank God Amoonguss is gone. I'll still be using Alomomola regardless. Don't know if Tangela would be a good replacement partner. I'd prefer something with better special bulk.

    Remember when Stoutland was UU? Hah
  5. Manveru123

    Manveru123

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2012
    Messages:
    204
    See? I told you Cinccino and Amoonguss will probably be leaving, like, a month or two ago? And boom ;) Both good changes and I fully support them, too.

    Losing Emboar is kind of surprising, but I welcome that change too. I was never a fan of his to be honest. He was very good, but perhaps too good.

    Losing Snover, I don't like. I was beginning to like weather without having to participate in weather wars (at least not THAT much). I feel like we just lost one of the very few good anti-Ludicolo pokes too.

    Changes in meta? Well, obviously Musharna will again become much more popular than Duosion, and with Absol leaving it might start carrying HP Ground more often. Same goes for Ludicolo, who doesn't have to care about Snover anymore. Braviary will most likely get its featherly ass back to top teams, too. Amoonguss is not really replacable, especially for people who were using him as a speciall wall. Roselia is not as good for that because it lacks Regenerator and Lefties.

    Speaking of Roselia, it is actually kind of interesting, and I will most likely try it out. By the way, banded Stoutland under Sandstorm is a monster, and it might make some gimmicky sandstorm teams start appearing on the ladder.
  6. skylight

    skylight winner of smogon's most sizzlin' grill 2014
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,329
    Even with the usage in mind I don't really think it's appropriate for now given that psychic types are going to be much bigger players now. While Skuntank can beat it, you can still outplay it with sub at least if you predict what the Skuntank will do etc or just put it to sleep before it taunts you or tries to Sucker Punch, and even with sub can OHKO Cacturne etc (altho that isn't very hard to be OHKO'd but still). Without those you mentioned even Mushy won't be able to kill it before Jynx does if it's already subbed and Mushy doesn't predict properly, idk while Pinsir and Samurott can take it on (tho lovely kiss etc for the latter) I just don't think right now is really the right time to do that, given what's left. Although the fact that it can set up on Ludicolo with CM would be nice. :(
  7. ChuckHades

    ChuckHades

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    Why is Zangoose so damn low? It is THE best sweeper in NU, hands down. And Regirock lower than Golem? Why? Regirock is just a superior version of Golem, with considerably higher defense, higher HP, the ability to survive more than a tickle from the special side AND no crippling 4x weaknesses. The only niches that Golem has over it is sucker punch (which is easy to predict, and will barely scratch Musharna) and sturdy (which Regirock will get soon anyway).

    I'm kinda saddened by the changes too. We lost a lot of offensive pokes, and stall will probably see a rise. It's all subjective, but I really don't like stall. It's just not fun to play with or against. I'm especially saddened to see Emboar go, he was the face of NU. Cincinno was one I never actually had any problems with, so I'm really indifferent to that one. Losing Absol means Musharna became even better than it already is, I'm backing it for top ten next time round. Amoonguss is also whatever, another one I never had problems with, but I can see why others found it annoying. Still, it should have a good niche in RU, forming a great defensive core with Slowking.

    Roselia is an adequate replacement for Amoonguss, and lets me use something else to set up spikes over the god awful Garbodor. Y'know, in that Roselia actually does other things as well as set up hazards, unlike Garbodor which just sets up spikes and dies. Stoutland is interesting, manual sand has just become an enticing concept. Throw on Gigalith and Probopass, and you got some bulky sand threats. Oh my god, put trick room Musharna on too.

    Brb guys, gonna go make a pretty lolzy team.
  8. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2012
    Messages:
    437
    Zangoose was down because Hail + Toxic Orb damage racked up pretty fast, and he would die pretty easily.
  9. Organization Member XIV

    Organization Member XIV

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    669
    Wartortle at #34. I have lost all faith in the ladder, and I agree with ScraftyistheBest. Also, poor Cincinno, I will miss King's Rock trolling. Oh well, RU will be the next victim I guess. :3
  10. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,829
    This is true, although in general Zangoose hasn't had ladder usage that adequately reflects how devastating of a sweeper it is imo, partially due to the popularity of Cincinno and how easy that was to use in comparison to Zangoose. Also, saying that Regirock outclasses Golem is false. Personally I prefer Regirock and thus use it on more of my teams, but in some teams Golem is better, as it has priority, dual STABs, is better offensively that other Rock-types in the tier, and makes a great Electric-type check, among other things. Also, being specially weak isn't as big of a deal as the threats you're trying to check with a Rock-type are primarily physical (Flying, Normal, etc.) and the special attackers of the tier usually have coverage moves or STABs that are super-effective on both Regirock and Golem (such as how Psychic-types usually have fighting coverage), making neither good checks to them. I agree that Regirock is superior defensively, but saying that Regirock is a superior Golem is false, as they surpass each other in different ways.
  11. ChuckHades

    ChuckHades

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    Priority Sucker Punch seems nice on paper, but it's really not that great. Things like Kadabra wouldn't stay in on Golem or Regirock, and max HP max defense Musharna takes 41.3-48.6% from Adamant max attack Golem, meaning it can take it, kill Golem, then heal off the damage. I don't have time to do the calcs now (I will later), but I'm pretty sure that basically every psychic type that would stay in on Golem can take a sucker punch anyway.

    Dual STABS is whatever, Regirock gets Earthquake too. For example, both Golem and Regirock OHKO Skuntank after rocks with EQ with the same EV spread. And one on one, Regirock wins, being naturally faster. I can't think of any other key scenarios, so let me know if I've missed some.

    Golem is also a meh electric type check. It can't hit Rotom Fan or Frost with EQ, and will get completely destroyed by HP Grass or Blizzard respectively. Elektross also can't be hit by EQ, and completely destroy it with Giga Drain (so any damage taken from Rock Blast or whatever is completely nullified.) Then the rest of the electric types can be checked by Regirock too.

    It's not that big a deal, but it's an advantage nonetheless. At the end of the day, Regirock can be a special wall, Golem can't.

    The ONLY area that Golem surpasses is in priority, which it can't even wield that effectively anyway. For the life of me, I can't figure out what kind of team would need Golem over Regirock. Regirock can do anything Golem can, and do things Golem can't do extremely well. Which is why Regirock should be way higher, probably top 5.
  12. Ewil

    Ewil

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    467
    for saying one, Regirock can't learn Rock Blast while Golem can, and with it he can sweeps or forces multiple Flying/Ice/Bug pokes most notably Ninjask. Golem has Sturdy to pratically guarantee Stealth Rock on the field or to take an huge damage and hit back in emergency cases (like an over boosted sweeper). Sucker Punch is not used to kill Psychic type principally, but is used as a priority move for weaked opponents. You hardly find yourself using Sucker Punch at the beginning of a match, SP is used in mid-late game if you decide to not sacrifice Golem once you set up your Stealth Rock.

    The dual STAB of Golem is useful principally to hit neutral mons. I think it's obviuous that a SE Attack coming from a decent attack stat is going to OHKO a pokémon, especially Skuntank that usually runs no DEF EV.
    Regirock is more saw as a utility mon that can actually do some damages to the opponent, that's why he usually runs things like T-Wave/Toxic+Stealth Rock+Rock Slide/Stone Edge+Filler, while Golem usually is used as a SR setter and bulky attacker since his usual set is SR+Rock Blast+EarthQ+Sucker Punch.

    For the Eletric attacks, Golem is a check, like when you predict that the opponent's Rotom-F/S is going to locked itself in a Volt Switch/Thunderbolt and Golem can come in for free, that obviusly a base example, since i think that if your opponent see a Ground pokémon in your team, he/she'll going to not spam Electric attacks and that's another advantage to have Golem in your team (or a Ground pokemon in general).

    So, both Golem and Regirock have their good points and the choose of one of them depends of what you need in your team.
  13. ChuckHades

    ChuckHades

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    OK, good luck sweeping with base 45 speed. Rock Blast is a boon for Golem, but Golem really shouldn't be your main check to substituting pokes anyway, as Rock Blast isn't guaranteed to hit 5 times every time. Relying on that WILL cost you many games, so it's whatever. Sturdy is irrelevant, as Regirock will get that soon anyway. Even then, it doesn't matter. Both Regirock and Golem are designed to take hits and tank back multiple times throughout the battle, which means the only time you'll have Sturdy up is when it doesn't matter one bit, like in lead matchups with Regirock, other Golem, Piloswine, whatever. Sucker Punch is unreliable priority too. It's fairly easy to predict around, and will fail against other priority users. Anything frail enough to be taken out by Golem's sucker punch can probably also be taken out by Regirock taking a hit and finishing it off. Not to say priority isn't good on it, but it's not enough to justify using it over Regirock.

    Regirock can still pull off an attacking tank set extremely well, ESPECIALLY as it gets Drain Punch, something Golem lacks. Regirock is not outclassed at all in this role. However, Golem cannot pull a supportive set off, meaning Regirock outclasses it there. Regirock can even pull pseudo swords dance with swagger and pysch up (which with Musharna Trick Room support makes for some pretty lolzy matches). Golem has one set; bulky stealth rock tank. Everything else Golem does is done better by Regirock, and Regirock can do the one thing Golem can just as well. Regirock can also do things Golem cannot do, like support. There's one Golem set listed on his analysis, and there are three Regirock sets. That says a lot.

    And as I said previously, Golem is not a fantastic check to electric types. Good players will never spam electric moves when Golem is around, and will instead destroy it with HP Grass, HP Ice, Giga Drain, or whatever. Whereas with Regirock, you can switch in with impunity, taking minimal damage from either a STAB electric move or a super effective HP (because Regirock actually can take special hits surprisingly well, with the same special bulk as Ludicolo).

    Don't get me wrong, Golem is a good pokemon, but Regirock is just better. If you prefer Golem, that's fine, it can still function well. But Regirock will do most everything Golem does better than it, something which cannot be overlooked at high level play. You won't notice against your typical ladder player who has a team full of Kanto staples, but when facing a great opponent, I would pick Regirock every time.
  14. TheCanadianWifier

    TheCanadianWifier I'm captivated by you baby, like a firework show ♥
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    487
    Super excited for Stoutland finally dropping (I've been waiting so patiently for it to fall) because NU finally gets a bulky normal type with access to Roar, to prevent it from becoming set-up fodder *cough* Miltank *cough*. Seriously, Miltank is cursed with a movepool that has everything it could ever want - except for a phazing move.
    Anyways, I've been running a set of:
    Show Hide
    Stoutland (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 236 HP / 252 Def / 20 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Return
    - Toxic
    - Substitute
    - Roar
    and it's working out amazing. Because it's a generic normal-type, the stat spread is relatively balanced. It boasts a decent Base 85 HP, some very nice natural bulk (which becomes even more impressive with investment), a Base 100 Attack (even un-invested, STAB Returns still hurt), and it's relatively fast for a wall, with base 80 speed. Wish support from Alomomola makes it really difficult to break through. On the offensive, it gets access to Scrappy, so a banded set with Return/Superpower/Crunch/filler could be viable and fun to try as well.

    Roselia is cool to see dropping down, but this makes NU's need for some more viable rapid-spinners even more urgent. I think I'll stick to Vileplume as my new defensive grass though, as it has better defence, and Effect Spore is too much fun to pass up. I wish it could run both Leech Seed (3rd gen event) and Effect Spore (5th gen dream world) on the same set, but alas, I need to choose between them :[

    Absol leaving is upsetting, but I never really used it. The main reason I'll miss it is that Skuntank's usage will rise now, and I ABSOLutely hate Skuntank :/

    Snover leaving is also rather whatever, as I only faced hail once or twice, and didn't use it myself.

    Emboar was something that I only recently started using, and it was alright. Not too bothered by this one either.

    I'm slightly upset to see Cinccino leave just because it was SO easy to kill. As soon as it comes in, switch to Rocky Helmet Miltank, and watch it take around 85%, plus even more if it had Life Orb. If it had switched into rocks, it would be dead. I guess it's nice to see go, because I don't have to run a RHMiltank on every team I make now.

    NOOOOOOOO, WHY TAKE THE MUSHROOM AND NOT THE FISH :(
    Seriously Amoongus, you will be missed. A lot. I had just recently developed/discovered a Sub/Spore/2attacks set, and I was loving it. Sub on the switch (everyone predicts spore and sleep-fodders something) and then decide whether their switch-in is worth sporing or not. A lot of times, I'd rather just kill what they sent in (or at least do massive damage to it) and switch out. It allowed me to choose what I wanted to sleep, and cripple something that was actually threatening to my team. Amoongus also had THE definition of a free sub, due to Regenerator. I feel it's a set that only works in NU, as Stun Spore is really valuable in the higher tiers. Vileplume/Roselia (Tangela LOL) just can't fill the roll it held, so I foresee a ton more Ludicolo and Gorebyss in the future, along with the obvious rise in psychics.

    And I swear, if people honestly think that Alomomola/Tangela can become the new A-A core, you're just sadly mistaken.
  15. Ewil

    Ewil

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    467


    I think that Double STAB, Rock Blast and Sucker Punch (and to an extent, even Sturdy since on Regi, is more useful Clear Body basing on the fact that is hardly OHKOed) are the good points that Golem has over Regirock. I never say that Rock Blast is useful for Subsitute users, but to eliminate pokémon weak to Rock-Type like Ninjask, Charizard, etc and yes, at the end, he can break even some Subs and do some extra damage. The time that Rock Blast hit against this pokemon is rarely relevant and can serves to give to things like SubBU Braviary an hard time (if he's not already starts to setup a bunch of BUs) while Regirock must use Psych Up to have a chance against him (or catching on the switch with T-Wave).

    The good points about Regirock are that he has more defenses and while Golem rely on Sturdy to tank a single Special hit, Regirock can actually tank a bunch, Regirock can use more sets, so he can be more unpredictable, can run more utilities while Golem can only have a slashed Toxic over Sucker Punch and Regi has a pseudo-recovery in Drain Punch.

    I've already said that a good player never spam Electric-Type moves if he/she sees Golem on the opponent's team and that's an advantage in having Ground as a second Type on Golem. You prevent your opponent to use a certain type of move, that's not a point to understimate, that lets you play mind games with your opponent based on the situation.

    To be more clear: If you need Priority, two perfect coverage double STAB and an SR setter, Golem is your man.
    If you need a tank with a viable recovery, a decent unpredictablity and good utilities of the level of SR, T-wave, Toxic (or more gimmick Psych Up and even Swagger like you said), Regirock is the way.

    Yeah on the level of jobs done in general, Regirock can do more things, so he can be used more if you need his services and Golem is only good to do two things.
    Probably more people needs the two things that Golem can do over the more services that Regirock can offers. Stats hardly reflects the real metagame, thats why i really wish to see again the high-score statistic (forgot about the score that the statistic takes at the time)
  16. TheCanadianWifier

    TheCanadianWifier I'm captivated by you baby, like a firework show ♥
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    487
    THIS. For all the people that mindlessly switch Regirock into Braviary: I love you. You people have won me more games than I can count. Braviary simply abuses SubRoost to stall out the EIGHT uses of Stone Edge that Regirock gets, and you're home free past that (inb4 mention of Rock Slide). Golem can prevent itself from being set-up fodder with Rock Blast, due to higher PP, and the ability to break subs. So as a check/counter to one of the most dangerous (IMO) set-up sweepers in NU, Golem wins.

    But as just an overall long-term defensive investment? Regirock by a mile. In my NU experience, Golem is a suicide Stealth Rocker that has some offensive pressure. Regirock is a monster to take down, whether it be early, middle, or late game. I've seen it with Rest + Heal Bell support, and I've seen the bulky attacker as well. Overall, I'd say that Regirock is the better choice for a physical wall, and Golem has a niche as a lead that is guaranteed to get rocks up and has some offensive power. Just my two cents.
  17. Ewil

    Ewil

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    467
    Yeah ! You sum the things better, Canadian ! Golem is mostly a suicide lead that can pratically always sets SR AND can give even an offensive presence if you decided to preserve him AND serves as a check or counter to some pokes principally thanks to Rock Blast and Sucker Punch.
    While Regirock can be a Physical or a Mixed wall that can actually put some offensive pressure and have some utilities and niches as well as being more durable then Golem.
  18. TheCanadianWifier

    TheCanadianWifier I'm captivated by you baby, like a firework show ♥
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    487
    Ok, here's my opinions and such:

    The NU ladder seriously scares me sometimes. But nothing is scarier than this:
    Show Hide



    So there's my analysis of the past 3 months, here's to 3 more! *clink*
  19. ChuckHades

    ChuckHades

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    I think my point is being missed. Golem is very viable, but let's face it, no-one is going to use Regirock and Golem on the same team, it's just redundant. My point is that in the majority of cases Regirock will be the better one to have. That's not to say Golem doesn't have its uses, it certainly does, but most teams would rather take the extra 70 defense (the difference between Kakuna and Arceus), just as reliable SR, and the ability to mould their rock type into something unpredictable over Golem, who does one thing well, but is very predictable.

    Also, Wartortle isn't THAT bad. It's a piece of shit yea, but it does get haze, and its fairly bulky on both sides. I'd still much rather use Torkoal to spin, but Wartortle is still slightly viable. Though I completely agree it shouldn't be ahead of Golbat (gawdamn that thing is good, Crobat is an S tier threat in UU, and Golbat is just the bulkier version of it).

    PS: SubBU Braviary beats every rock type in the tier basically, actually it beats everything in the tier full stop.
  20. Ewil

    Ewil

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    467
    Yeah ! SubBU Brav is a true beast :D

    Speaking of leads or SR setter, i'm so happy that Piloswine is rising in usage ! I really love him and is so useful in so many ways !
    He's a check/counter to a lot of things, can set SR, has two useful STABs, one rare STAB priority, one multi-hit STAB move, can be a bulky tank thanks to Eviolite and Thick Fat and even without Eviolite he's pretty bulky ! A real beast !

    And speaking about stats, i really see 7-8 Gardevoirs in over 100 matches °_° probably i'm (un)lucky i dunno lol since now for what i've read most Gardevoir's users will using Destiny Bond to counter Skuntank, so the Skuntank's users got to be worry about Garde and Haunter if they want to maintain alive their Psychic-counter. (And i'm a true lover of Skuntank :P)
  21. TheCanadianWifier

    TheCanadianWifier I'm captivated by you baby, like a firework show ♥
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    487
    This is what I was actually saying, sorry if I wasn't clear enough :P Golem has a small niche with higher offences, and regirock is an overall better wall over the long-term.

    Wartortle is just meh.. I could go into some theorymoning with the set-up sweepers in the tier, but I won't bother. The problem with NU is, Wartortle is unfortunately one of the more viable spinners there is, which is a main reason I don't even bother with a spinner anymore. With the addition of Rose to the tier, I really hope we get a better spinner soon, although it seems extremely unlikely.
  22. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2012
    Messages:
    916
    I will miss all those who have moved up to RU; Cinccino was saddening though predicted. (I was finishing a RMT for her, then she moved for RU.. So yea, wasted work ;-;)

    Though, Tangela is going to be seen more often as a wall of defense, seeing Amoonguss's departure, for my prediction.

    Can't want to see all the new, exciting changes as they reveal more in depth! =P
  23. FLCL

    FLCL
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Salon Maidenis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2010
    Messages:
    2,206
    just a side note, but you can still post a rmt even after cinccino is banned as long as you make it clear that you used it before the tier shifts.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)