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NU Viability Ranking

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Annoyer, Oct 10, 2012.

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  1. ium

    ium dein haar riecht gut
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    braviary isn't the only thing you should be looking at when considering bastiodon. lairon can do the same, and all bastiodon has over it is more special bulk. you have to consider: how does bastiodon fare against the rest of the tier? how well can it perform its role (especially in comparison to other stealth rock setters)? it does okay, but the thing holding it back is the lack of offenses and the presence of strong fighting- and water-types in the tier.

    anyway, i agree with sawk being s-rank. pretty much exactly what flcl said:
    plus the fact that it has a neat base 85 speed and the ability to OHKO so many things means that it doesn't always need to get things on the switch. sawk forces many teams to pack a resistance, if not a ghost-type or alomomola (who struggles with sawk anyway).

    as for ampharos, i think the thing holding it back is its speed. it looks fairly bulky, but the fact of the matter is that it's worn down as a defensive pokemon. offensively, it's neat because it's pretty strong and all, but again it gets worn down due to its low speed in comparison to the electric-types aforementioned. i think b-rank is already fitting; ampharos has many options in its movepool but i don't see it excelling at one of them in comparison to something else that's in the tier.

    i want regice to be discussed more before it's placed into s-rank. it may seem like an s-rank pokemon, but it's really pressured by hazards. people have been utilizing rest + sleep talk, but once you use rest, you're going to have a hard time spending three consecutive turns to use it again to gain your hp back if the opponent is competent enough to keep it pressured. in addition, using that set means you're foregoing focus blast and thunder wave which would be amazing so that regice can hit piloswine and rotom-f much harder while catching things like emboar on the switch with paralysis. regice puts a stop to many special attackers, but it still doesn't excel as well as it should against the best. think about ludicolo: regice cannot beat ludicolo one-on-one if it switches in on stealth rock and as ludicolo uses rain dance. my experiences using regice has been generally positive, which makes it a great candidate for a-rank. however, the fact that it suffers a bit from four moveslot syndrome and stealth rock weakness holds it back from s-rank in my opinion.
  2. The Dark Hero

    The Dark Hero

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    Pikachu in D? Hello? ONLY POKEMON IN NU THAT CAN USE E-SPEED! (Which fucks up Sucker Punch abusers, may I add?)

    (Although I may be the only person who can use Pikachu effectively, and sweep with it several times.)

    Let's see...

    Light Ball Pika's E-Speed is a more powerful than Lucario's, and slightly more powerful than RAYQUAZA'S!

    With Ninjask's swords dance boosts (and a sub, maybe) Pikachu becomes an unstoppable offensive juggernaut that makes E-Killer Arceus proud. (The only reason Arceus's is stronger is because of STAB.)

    Then agin, judging a Pokemon's placement by my experiences and success isn't exactly fair.
  3. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

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    Gurdurr can switch in easily because it has guts to take advantage of paralysis. As for the remaining pokemon hat do fear being paralyzed, that doesn’t prevent them from coming in on a double switch, a resisted hit, or after a KO and forcing regice out and racking up more damage from entry hazards.

    Regice’s defensive typing is okayish against opposing ice types, but stealth rock still does a number to regice and really restricts its bulk, and tht same typing makes it relatively easy to force out. As I said, Rotom-F can get around regice, so its ice resist isn’t as helpful as it appears to be.

    Does regice really wall exxegutor?
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Regice: 43.8 - 51.51%
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Regice: 57.85 - 68.04%


    Regice can’t switch in very easily at all, especially factoring in stealth rock in addition to any other entry hazards that are up.

    And samurott:
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Samurott Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Regice: 78.51 - 92.28%
    Assuming Samurott SDs on the switch, it can OHKO Regice the following turn after rocks.

    Regice cannot wall those two nor altaria.
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Altaria Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Regice: 76.58 - 90.63%
    Regice can handle the specs set but not this.
    As for tangela, amoonguss and alomomola, it isn’t really difficult to find a switch in to them, being able to do so doesn’t make regice particularly exceptional. Rotom does have its ways to get around regice as well, namely trick and volt switching on the switch, or, in rotom-f’s case, subsplit or subwisp. Haunter, too, has the option of tricking it a choice item.

    Though regice can hit hard against many switch-ins, it cannot harm pokemon that threaten it like gurdurr and emboar, as much as it might like to.


    It is fairly easy to predict a switch to regice after alomomola wishes and act accordingly to force regice out and rack up yet more stealth rock damage. Resttalk is OK but has a huge moveslot cost and forces regice to drop twave and focus blast, allowing things like piloswine and emboar to switch in easily.

    Duosion, sawk, and emboar are common on hail teams, all of which can break through regice with few difficulties. It walls some hail sweepers but all hail teams have a reliable way to KO regice.

    And yeah regice can technically break through CM user with psych up+frost breath, but then regice is forced to give up a moveslot for psych up, losing twave or focus blast, which makes it vulnerable to other threats.

    @Jirachicelebimew: I’m not just saying regice has counters.It has numerous other flaws that prevent it from being an S rank pokemon in my eyes, the most notable of which is an extreme vulnerability to entry hazards. Also, plenty of special attackers can get past regice, like duosion, exxegutor, trick users, and torkoal(being paralyzed doesn’t stop it from killing regice). Rotom-F does about 15% with volt switch plus SR damage, which is about 40%, not to mention rotom can then switch to an appropriate counter. And Regice is not setup bait for zangoose, what I was saying is that zangoose can force regice out with the threat of close combat.
  4. ebeast

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    Gurdurr is 2HKOed by Ice Beam and outpaced the next turn.

    The most common Exeggutor sets right now are LumRest and Sunny Day, both of which cannot do nearly as much as Specs.

    Samurott's most common set is Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / HP Grass(or Electric) / Megahorn (or Taunt) which Regice beats. Swords Dance Samurott can beat Regice, however just the fact that Regice can beat a Samurott set is a very big deal.

    Altaria in general is not good right now, and DD Altaria has no reason to exist in the same tier as Fraxure. If you're seeing Altaria chances are they will be Specially Defensive or Specs.

    • Also how about we start talking about Piloswine's ranking? Should it stay in A-rank or go to S-rank?
    • And how about Altaria's ranking? Should it stay in B-rank or go down to C-rank?
  5. FLCL

    FLCL
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    Piloswine is a decent Pokemon, but it doesn't need to go any higher than A-Rank. It is still easily walled or taken advantage of by the many Grass and Water-types in the tier. Common leads such as Samurott, Sawk, and Ludicolo can prevent Piloswine from doing anything and cause the use to lose a massive amount of momentum, unlike Sturdy Pokemon such as Golem, Carracosta, and Probopass (although Sawk smashes those Pokemon as well). It lacks resistances to Normal and Flying which discourage some from using it over Rock-types as a Stealth Rock setter. Piloswine also lacks any form of recovery, and will be worn down by even weak attacks and Stealth Rocks over the course of a match. Although it does wall most Ice and Electric types while having excellent offensive presence on a team, I don't think Piloswine deserves to be S-Rank.
  6. Worldtour

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    You are missing out on a lot, and I mean a lot, of impotrant factors.

    First off, Pikachu isn't the only Pokemon in NU with Extreemespeed - Linoone also has it, STAB, and Belly Drum, as well as more bulk. If you poke Pikachu hard enough it gets OHKOed. While you have a high attack with a Light Ball, when other Pokemon hold a Life Orb Pikachu is weaker than them or comparable. Random calc right here...

    252 Atk Life Orb Lucario ExtremeSpeed vs 0 HP/0 Def Pidgeotto: 61.05% - 71.91% (2 hits to KO)
    252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu ExtremeSpeed vs 0 HP/0 Def Pidgeotto: 61.42% - 72.66% (2 hits to KO)

    If its almost weaker than a Lucario its far weaker than Rayquaza... Don't ask why I chose Pidgeotto.

    Anyway, while Pikachu may be OK after a Swords Dance Baton Pass boost, the same could be said about anything really. Even though it messes up users of Sucker Punch, they can just survive a hit and absolutely destroy it with any of their move. This is also assuming that you are going in fully physical, so you'll have to Volt Tackle to do anything, which is going to nearly kill you thanks to that awful 35 base HP. There is very little reason to use it over a Pokemon that can actually take a hit and get an item to hit nearly as hard, like Eelektross or Rotom-S. Pikachu just isn't very good and needs way to much support to be worth it 90% of the time.
  7. Brave Bird spam

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    no, gurdurr can live two ice beams. Defensive regice never 2HKOs and offensive sets only have a 9.38% chance to do so. It isn't even guaranteed to ko in 2 hits after rocks.

    SD samurott and specs exxegutor aren't common and DD altaria is mostly outclassed but they do still exist and they prevent regice from being a foolproof counter

    Piloswine should probably stay A rank because it lacks reliable recovery and is vulnerable to threats like sawk and ludicolo. I've used it before and was a bit disappointed. It usually just set up rocks+attacked a few times+died. Maybe I'm just not playing it very well but I think it should stay in A.

    Altaria I've used before a lot. It is an exellent cleric and phazer and a good wallbreaker with specs, but it isn't as bulky as I might like and sometimes ends up being mauled by stray HP ices. I'm leaning towards C rank but I'm still kinda unsure
  8. Punchshroom

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    Sorry for the late reply. While Electabuzz and Raichu may have better offensive potential, Ampharos still maintains its defensive niche by ironically enough doing a good job at stopping those two. Heal Bell isn't Amphy's only niche, as it is unusually versatile for an Electric-type, much less mono-Electric. Specially defensive sets can wall specially-orientated Electric-types while outdamaging or statusing them in the process. The idea of KOing it with EQ can be flipped on its head in the face of a Cotton Guard. Ampharos can also patch up its low speed with Agility, which is something Eel can't do and does it better than Raichu due to it hitting harder off the bat. Ampharos can even make use of its good bulk with Charge Beam to overcome offensively inept special walls, or Dual Screens to unleash the terror of pokes such as Swoobat, Linoone and Combusken while having a slow Volt Switch to boot. Of course, Amphy can't run all those sets into one, but each set is dealt with different pokemon, so bringing in the wrong counter can prove to be game-changing.

    Ampharos's unique stat spread amongst Electric types as well as movepool makes it a noteworthy Electric type to say the least, and disagree with the notion that Ampharos has lack of speed AND significant investment in bulk, usually just one of them. That said, I'm still torn between its ranking of B or A. Opinions?
  9. Elegy96

    Elegy96

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    I say Ampharos should go no higher than a B ranking. Despite being a good defensive pivot, he is wrecked by Ground type moves and has no reliable recovery. His offensive sets are generally outclassed by Elektross, who has more coverage or Electabuzz, who has more speed. Despite this he does have a slow Volt Switch and Heal Bell to support his team.

    Also, the OP needs updating, seriously.
  10. Punchshroom

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    Well, I'd say Ampharos's access to Agility and much greater bulk can differentiate itself from Eelektross and Electabuzz respectively, not to mention it is the hardest hitter among the three. But I guess Ampharos seems B-rank material, with my biggest gripe being the lack of reliable recovery.
  11. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    The following changes were made:
    • Alomomola to A tier
    • Snover to A tier
    • Sawk to S tier
    • Golurk to A tier
    • Glaceon to B tier
    • Vanilluxe to C tier
    • Duosion to A tier
    • Rotom-Frost to S tier

    I would like more discussion on Regice and Musharna before I move them up or down.
  12. sickweare

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    I'd like to propose Grumpig up to C from D-ranking. While it does not shine like Lickilicky as a special wall, is it has a very useful base 110 special def, which, combined with thick fat, makes him a great special wall. The base 90 SpA is not too shabby either, being able to fire off focus blast to the obvious Absol switch in, or STAB psychic on anything else. It's also able to effectively set up dual screens. I believe it is a viable option for any competitive team lacking in the SpD department.
  13. Manveru123

    Manveru123

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    Agreed with Grumpig to C because his special defense and Thick Fat make him a great anti-hail pokemon.
  14. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    I noted a few things when gazing through the viability list, but these two came to my mind first as I've used both Pokés with quite some success in the past.

    First: Noctowl in E-rank.
    It is one of the best special walls, though somewhat outclassed by Audino. It does have some things going for it, mainly resistances to grass, bug and an immunity to ground, as well as more special bulk in general.

    It can also phaze out with Whirlwind, which is always nice.

    I'd suggest to Noctowl up to D-Rank, since it also has some very noticeable flaws like abysmal physical defence.

    Second: Leavanny in E-rank
    It has a nice dual stab which hits common threats and leads super-effectively, albeit one walled by three types, I admit, but aside from that it can run two other moves, which can completely mess up opponents by doing things they don't like. Like Baton pass sets (Calm Mind/Agility/Swords Dance + Baton Pass), Dual screens, but also Magic Coat, Knock Off, Sunny Day (as Leavanny has Chlorophyll), and even Electroweb can be used.

    It also hits moderately hard and fast, checking a variety of threats like the myriad of Rock, Ground and Psychic types residing in the tier. Alomomola also has no business with Leavanny and gets 2HKO'd by unboosted Leavanny with Leftovers.

    I suggest to up Leavanny to C-Rank. Leavanny has some big flaws in his typing, but his pro's outshine his cons in quite a few cases since he has much more options than the Smogon set lists.
  15. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    Noctowl is not that good as a special wall considering it has a pretty terrible defensive typing. Not only does it have a weakness to common ice and electric attacks, it also has only 2 useful resistances/immunity (grass, ghost) considering earth power and quiver dancers are not very threatening in NU and signal beam users run a stab that does more damage. It even has a nasty SR weakness and usualy rely's on toxic to damage which does not make it stand out as a wall at all. Sub bulk up braviary also shares the same typing, and is much more threatening in exchange of a little less bulk.

    Leavanny has nice baton passing abilities, but it has so much weaknesses it will often struggle to set up. Even once it manages to do so, it's still extremly easy to wall with any poison, fire or flying pokemon. Finaly, it's stats are pretty ordinary and struggle to make it stand out in front of other grass attackers like sawsbuck who is much harder to wall and can also baton pass similar boosts.
  16. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    Indeed, Noctowl is outclassed by Braviary in many respects. But Imsomnia, the ability to go for a surprise special set, and its (albeit slightly) higher special bulk, are why I suggest it'd be D-rank.

    It is generally outclassed by Braviary, unless in specific circumstances. I use SubBU Braviary over Noctowl as well, but sometimes miss the ability to take that Spore or Sleep Powder which Noctowl has.



    Leavanny has many more things going for it than Baton Pass if it comes to support moves. Baton Pass is just one of the many things it can do, and though it is the most common, I doubt it is Leavanny's best option. The Leftovers sets are far more dangerous as the Life Orb sets if you ask me.

    Dual Screens (fastest Dual Screen user with Chlorophyll existing in the entire game, and it outspeeds common leads with ease, except for Cinccino which immidiately U-turns out), Heal Bell, Synthesis, Magic Coat, Knock Off, Electroweb, heck, even Screech. These shenanigans caused many opponents to ragequit, and my Leavanny is responsible for more ragequits than the remainder of my Pokémon combined.
    Electroweb and Knock Off pranks can't be prevented with Taunt, which means Leavanny can keep using support moves even if taunted.

    That doesn't stop Leavanny's main moves from being walled easily, but Leavanny has a variety of uses, and checks a lot of dangerous Pokémon and most common leads as well (except Cinccino and Garbodor, though the first has a switch to a Rocky Helmet user and the latter has Magic Coat to watch out for).
  17. Annoyer

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    I've actually been using Leavanny and it is not terrible at all. I was using a subpass set with dual stabs and it worked well. With a great base speed and decent attack, it can threaten the likes of Ludicolo, Goluek and set up an easy sub against Alomomola. Its Stealth Rock weakness and decent typing at best hinders leaf so I would recommend Leaf for D tier.
  18. sickweare

    sickweare

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    I agree with the above post. I've used Leavanny a few times and with a Swords Dance boost, it can easily destroy common threats. It has great speed for NU, but poor defenses and fails to outspeed the NU king Cinccino unless Leav is scarfed which draws away from its power. Of course its two 4x weaknesses hold it back to as flying is a common type here in NU and Charizard and Emboar are very popular. All in all, it's a good Pokemon and it deserves a high D-ranking if not a low C-ranking. It has great power but needs support.
  19. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    I think Rapidash should be at least A Rank. He now has a niche which is spamming extremely powerful Fire-type Physical moves in NU, with Emboar gone to the lands of RU. CB hits incredibly hard, Scarf is pretty fast, EBelt fakes a Choice set and LO is just plain good. With Wish support, he is really good. He has a good movepool, similar to Emboar's (Without the Fighting-type moves).
  20. sickweare

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    I'm also going to say that Armaldo should be A-rank. It is the best spinner in the NU metagame, even if it is weak to SR itself. It has great offensive presence unlike some spinners (Wartortle), and with proper investment, it has great bulk too. Even without attack investment, Armaldo can run support and still take down may threats thanks to its awesome base 125 Attack stat. I run Armaldo on many of my teams and we see a lot of success thanks to him (not only him, of course but..).

    I know its speed is what keeps it back for the most part, but look past that and you'll find a versatile little shellfish-thing.

    EDIT: I swear this is the last thing I'll propose.
  21. ebeast

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    I think that Rapidash should stay in B-rank as even though Emboar left the tier, Rapidash still suffers a lot of flaws that prevent it from being A-rank. Rapidash's mediocre bulk, weakness to Stealth rock, and reliance on recoil moves with a terrible base HP make it very hard to keep Rapidash alive in a match. Even with access to Morning Sun its terrible defenses will make it difficult to pull off.

    Armaldo is another Pokemon that should stay in B-rank as its Rock/Bug typing removes the main reasons to use a Rock-type Pokemon in NU in the first place: the Flying- and Fire-type resistance. Its typing also gives it a nasty weakness to Stealth Rock and due to the great Spinblockers in NU, Armaldo doesn't have the moveslots to take advantage of its best perks. If you try to fit Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin on the same set it will just come out to be a disappointment as Armaldo's typings makes it hard to come in on powerful Brave Birds and without power cannot break past Ghost-type Pokemon to attempt a Rapid Spin. If you want Armaldo to Rapid Spin properly it won't have any slots left for Stealth Rock and Armaldo becomes a mediocre Pokemon outside of the ability to Rapid Spin. If you want to Stealth Rock there are far better Pokemon for the job and if you want Rapid Spin, there is always Shell Smash Torkoal.

    Also a reminder to DTC to remove Emboar, Snover, Cinccino, Absol, and Amoonguss from the tierings as well as move Duosion back down to B-rank.
  22. Raseri

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    I believe that Rampardos should be dropped to C rank, or possibly even D rank. With the release of Mold Breaker Sawk, the main niche that Rampardos had on teams as an anti SR mon is no more. Nowadays its really hard to justify using it, as it lacks the bulk that most Rock-types have. 97/60/50 is really bad, it won't be taking Brave Birds for long. And justifying it offensively is also quite difficult with its main niche being destroyed now. The only reason I would ever think about using it now is as a nuke with Head Smash, and if I'm using Rampardos I'm not using a good Rock-type.


    My basic reason is that there is no reason to really use Rampardos anymore, its not bad, but there are just so many better options for whatever you want it to do. B rank is far to high.
  23. Ninja Dewott

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    I was, wondering more than suggesting, why Raichu is so low down in the rankings. I was thinking about it for an addition to my team, and was comparing it to my current scarf user, Rotom-S, who's all the way up in A Rank. Now, Raichu may not be as powerful, but it is much faster, which allows it run a Modest Nature and still hit, with a choice scarf, many useful benchmarks, such as outspeeding Scarf Sawk and +2 Gorebyss. The ability to use a Modest Nature (or Jolly if you want, I guess) puts Raichu's Special Attack (or Attack) to only 2 Points lower than Rotom-S.

    Raichu also has arguably better coverage, it has access to Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Surf, and Signal Beam, as well as, obviously, Hidden Power. Rotom-S/F only really have Air Slash/Blizzard (the latter is pretty annoyingly inaccurate with no hail), Signal Beam, Shadow Ball and again, a Hidden Power. True, Raichu misses out on Trick and the Rotoms have a better support movepool (although even that is debatable), but I'm on about offence here.

    The Rotoms may have much better defences but Raichu has no Stealth Rock weakness and a very useful ability, which can aid it in sweeping. This is in contrast to Rotom-S' laughable ability.

    Raichu is also altogether more unpredictable. It can run a Nasty Plot boosting set, with Encore to mess with stuff and can even go Physical with its equally high Attack Stat and useful moves such as Volt Tackle, Extremespeed, Wild Charge, Focus Punch, Iron Tail and Brick Break.

    So, yeah, do Raichu's defences really put at such a massive disadvantage, presuming that Stealth Rock is on the field? I can't really argue the case for Raichu, since I've never used it, though might end up doing, just really surprised at how low it is.
  24. FLCL

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    raichu has to compete against electabuzz and zebstrika as a fast, electric-type scarfer that is not weak to stealth rock. the former is stronger, has similar coverage options, and can run eviolite to act as a faster, powerful, and bulky attacker. the latter also has lightningrod and has overheat to nail grass-types harder than hidden power [ice]. i'm not saying these pokemon are better than raichu, but one has to think of all three of these pokemon when teambuilding, which limits the amount of times when raichu will be useful. the rotom formes don't face this problem because of their unique typings which allow them to fullfill specific roles.
  25. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87 "Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
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    I believe persian should be up on the list somewhere. It's ability to fake out-taunt- u-turn to guarentee no hazards on the field is very beneficial. Technician is a very nice ability to bolster these attacking moves, even though they aren't going to deal a significant amount of damage to begin with. When your opponent brings in a physical wall to counter persian- boom! nasty plot with good coverage moves boosted by technician, and has the speed to outspeed major threats. Though kanga has better attack and bulk, the ability for a quicker fake out and u-turn to possibly gain momentum is a niche enough to be justifies to be on the list.
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