NU Viability Ranking

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Annoyer, Oct 10, 2012.

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  1. Swamp-Rocket

    Swamp-Rocket screw economics!
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    God so many nominations... I'm probably going to do short-ish support/oppositions. This is an ipod post so excuse all the grammar mistakes.

    Gradevoir to S-Rank: I can see this happening. Versatile, possibly the best special attacker in Nu... I don't see why not.

    Gurdurr to B-Rank: Definetly not. Musharna may be super amazing at the moment, but with Skuntank support you can take it down eventually. Not much can stop Gurdurr in my experience after a bulk up, as it can easily keep itself healthy. It still works pretty well, and just one Pokemon doesn,t deter just how much it can defeat.

    Skuntank to S-Rank: Outside of its main role it gets walled by so many Pokemon within the tier, keep it in A-Rank.Sometimes I can't even beat Misdreavus with this thing, so it isn't really foolproof in my experience.

    Ludicolo to A-Rank: I disagree with this. it can do a lot of things and can get past nearly anything with the appropriate move set. In the rain, you can't really revenge kill it, and its Hydro Pump is so powerful. Zebstrika can't do much to it, and its hailed as the weather revenge killer. Gardy is a pain, but Sawsbuck cant eat an Ice Beam. Stuff runs HP Bug just to get past it. It's impact on the tier is huge, S for sure.

    Rosella is a great spiker and it deserves A-Tier. It's arguably better than Garbodor, which is also A.

    Vigoroth to C: The fact I haven't seen this thing in months shoul speak for itself.

    Seismitoad to A: this thing is fairly mediocre (weak) as a supporter and doesn't hit hard at all, and its Rain Dance is put under serious competition by Ludicolo. Electric types aren't that common, and you still lose to Eelektross. It's decent, but not A-Tier worthy.

    Idk about Zangoose. It's a borderline for me. Unrivaled Power but its so frail. Golurk and Regirock beating it is annoying, but that's just one (very common) Pokemon and a semi-common Pokemon.

    Tangela to A: Self-explanatory. Amoonguss and Emboar moving up are so good.

    Vileplume to B: No Amoonguss means this should happen. It's not outclassed anymore, which is cool.

    I dont think I've ever seen a Metang in NU so I can't judge it, but it looks B-Rank on paper.

    There is just something about Torterra that always seems a bit dissapointing to me. I have no idea what it is, but it seems B-Tier for me just in general experience, despite it seeming like an A-Tier on paper.
  2. wynaut bidoof

    wynaut bidoof

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    Dang, stuff to do but I got to vote Beartic up to C Rank.
    It kills Grasses like crazy, with 84 Spd investment it outspeeds Tangela then does 46.84 - 56.15% to having 74.61 % to 2HKO. With even 1 layer of spikes it has a guaranteed 2HKO.
    It kills most Exeggutor but just narrowly 2HKOes SubSeed variants.
    Uninvested Golurk take a heavy blow from Icicle Crash.
    All teams in need of a counter to bulky grounds and grasses, look no further.
  3. Ewil

    Ewil

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    Total support to this. Except for the Skuntank thing.

    Skuntank, for me, deserves S-Rank for the fact that he can check principally most part of the Psychic/Ghost Type in the tier and once he get rid of them, his STAB priority and Taunt are always useful in the battle (without counting the fact that absorbs T-Spikes and is basically the thing that prevents players from using them).

    On the thing of Zangoose, i see him more A-Rank with the fact of being frail, being put on a timer and being forced to play mind games with your opponent (and i remember the second fact that you're on a timer and your opponent not). Quick Attack is a good STAB priority for him but the fact that nothing can be hitted for SE damages is a big flaw for a priority attack, so agaist other priority users like Skuntank and (especially) Gurdurr, Zangoose is fucked (not couting that he's hit by every hazards).
    So Zangoose for A-Rank
  4. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer Expect Amazing
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    I'm opposed to Skuntank in S tier. As others have said, it's not an S-Tier threat. All the other S tier mons are pokemon who are a serious danger to many teams as a whole, and they usually have a huge effect on teambuilding. Skuntank, while being good in its role as a Psychic trapper, isn't particularly threatening otherwise, and while priority and Taunt are nice, it's still walled by a type that's seen on just about every team (Rock or Steel) and the few teams not packing these can deal much more damage to Skuntank than it can take, and it can hardly threaten enough pokemon in the tier to be justified for an S ranking.
  5. Nyara

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    At least for my team who doesn't had ghosties or psychics... Skuntank is barely a threat (actually, it doesn't ever do too much at all), I know that him's niche is important as Musharna is a threat for some balanced and stall teams, but Musharna can be handled of a lot of other ways, and Skuntank needs prediction in order to being a threat for Gardevoir (the other psy's are not a threat at all, Haunter is good, but Skuntank can't counter him at all, and apart from that, we have a lot of Pokémon who can handle each spin-blocker without problem), and apart from him's niche (that only affects the 20-30% of teams), he's not more than a D (without Taunt) or C (with Taunt) Pokémon. He's a good A-Tier Pokémon for it's niche, and for being able to absorb Toxic Spikes and for it's speed, that always comes handy, but he's too far from being S.

    Skuntank =/= Absol
  6. TheCanadianWifier

    TheCanadianWifier Sorry aboot that, eh?

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    I'm suggesting moving Dragonair from Rank D to at least Rank C. This thing can be nearly unstoppable when used with a bulky, resttalking marvel scale set. The set I use is a simple
    Show Hide

    Dragonair @ Eviolite
    Trait: Marvel Scale
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Outrage

    set, and after it goes to sleep at around +1 or +2, it's quite possibly gg. On most of my teams lately, it's used as a physical utility wall of sorts, coming in on resisted hits, which are all common physical attacking types in NU (fire, water, grass, electric) and proceed to set up +1. If their switch in is slower or faster, its generally safe to get to +2, proceed to rest, boost your defences with Marvel Scale, and play some sleep talk roulette.
    Even if the set mentioned isn't your taste, it can still run a banded set with outrage/waterfall/e-speed/filler. A more offensive dragon dance set is also very viable, as it does massive damage after only +1+1. Again, I'm not saying that Dragonair's the be-all-end-all physical threat in NU, but I feel it's certainly better than the low ranks of Rank D.
  7. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    I also disagree with Ludicolo being removed from S-tier. With the fall of Emboar and Amoonguss Grass-type gained more popularity, but it doesn't really affect Ludicolo that badly if it does at all. Sawsbuck was one of the Pokemon that gained popularity among the general mass, however among better players it had always been pretty popular and something Ludicolo that deal with. Ludicolo vs Sawsbuck is kind of an even match up, as if Sawsbuck is going to be switching into Ludicolo its going to be in 2 likely situations. Hit by Ludicolo's most spammed move, Hydro Pump, (Which deals a good 60% on average factoring in Stealth Rock damage) or Rain Dance. If Sawsbuck switches into Rain Dance, then it's going down by Ice Beam guaranteed after Stealth Rock. On the other side, Sawsbuck vs Ludicolo without Rain up results in a potential KO with LO Double Edge. Sawsbuck is definitely a good check to Ludicolo, but a good amount of things are capable of checking Ludicolo when Rain isn't up such as Sawk, Braviary, and Zangoose. Capable of being checked rather easily without Rain is one of Ludicolo's flaws that keep it in NU rather than BL3.

    The other Grass-type would be Roselia who dropped from RU earlier this month. Even though Roselia does threaten Ludicolo with Sludge Bombs, it definitely doesn't do as well of a job as Amoonguss did. Amoonguss had more special bulk and Regenerator to be capable of coming into Ludicolo multiple times, while Roselia lacks access to Leftovers and even its SpD set can be 2HKO'd by Timid Life Orb Ludicolo's Ice Beam after Stealth Rock. You can say that Ludicolo can provide some free turns for Spikes, but its not really realistic that Roselia will be at 100% when it has to face Ludicolo and Ice Beam definitely pressures it into not getting up too many Spikes or risk death. If all comes to worse, Ludicolo can live a Sludge Bomb from defensive Roselia.

    The Ludicolo not having an Ice- or Fire-type resistance isn't really that big of a deal. Without Emboar in the tier, the only Fire-type Pokemon used would be Rapidash or Charizard, who still are not very common. Obviously both of these Pokemon cannot handle Ludicolo in Rain, and Rapidash while faster than Emboar is easier to wall with Rock-type teammates. Charizard has always troubled Ludicolo so if Ludicolo was S before, then I don't see a reason why it shouldn't stay S for not having a Fire-type resistance. The most common Ice-type Pokemon in the tier are Piloswine and Regice, the former who gets destroyed by Ludicolo. Regice is one of Ludicolo's stronger checks so not being to switch into its Ice-type attacks isn't really a big deal anyways. A STAB Ice Beam does less damage than a Super Effective Tbolt, so Ludicolo actually has the better edge against Regice than Special Samurott does. This is specially the case if Ludicolo has Rain up as a Rain boosted Hydro Pump 2HKOes Regice cleanly.
  8. Annoyer

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    I disagree with Zangoose being removed from S-tier. Zangoose is the strongest attacker in the tier while being able to switch moves. Getting its Toxic Orb activated is simple by either revenge killing or coming in on an advantageous double switch. Toxic Boosted Facade destroys every kind of team 2HKOing the likes of Alomomola and OHKOing most offensive Pokemon on offensive teams such as Samurott. One of the biggest selling points of Zangoose other than its tremendous attack is its 90 base Speed which is amazing in this tier allowing it to outspeed the likes of Sawk, Gardevoir, and Braviary. I don't really understand why people are suggesting it to move down to A tier when it was a controversial suspect in NU. With Quick Attack, goose can bypass Sucker Punch from Skuntank and revenge kill mons at low health such as Swellow or Rotom-S after Stealth Rock switch-ins. Close Combat allows it to defeat most Rock-types in the tier; Facade + Close Combat 2HKOs Golem pretty easily. Although Zangoose may need some prediction, the payoff is definitely worth it considering how you can 2HKO pretty much everything. Although hazards and toxic orb wear down goose, it's why it is not in upper tiers, but it still excels in NU. In many matches, it's simple to just bring on something Goose outspeeds and OHKOs (which is a lot of mons in the metagame, including bulky stuff like Regice) and spam Facade. Unlike Choice Band Braviary or Sawk, you can't just abuse Zangoose being locked into a move. Also, Zangoose requires just as much prediction to play against as you need to play with it which shows how threatening Zangoose is. Just don't play wrecklessly with Zangoose and you will see how powerful and simple it is to use .
  9. Diatom

    Diatom An enigma
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    I definitely disagree with Zangoose being moved as well. It's not hard to get the toxic orb boost at all; just Volt Switch or U-turn from something. It can OHKO so much stuff once it's active that it's not even funny, and a lot of other stuff can be KOd with a little prior damage. Its defenses, while not winning any awards, are adequate for a mon of its power, letting it survive non-Mach Punch priority, weak non-STAB moves, and most moves from defensive mons. Although it does get worn down quickly, which IMO is why it is still NU, it just has the raw power to blast through things, and since you will be switching out a lot, the damage shouldn't build up very quickly. In short Zangoose should stay in S-tier
  10. Detective Dell

    Detective Dell Winter Hibernation of the Yarnasauruses
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    100% support of what Ebeast and Annoyer said. After reading arguments regarding both sides of the preferred solution, I'm forced to conclude that the later arguments are the much stronger and more evident positions than the former arguments, and both have delivered a very good representation as to why the many threats that the former has argued upon are either irrelevant or exaggerating as to what makes them among the greatest depths of what they have that defines the metagame. With this, I am going to conclude that Ludicolo and Zangoose should not move out of the S-ranking.

    That being said, I really believe that people who make posts, regarding nominations or debates/agreements/disagreements relating to that specific topic, should be a lot more detailed if you're willing to actually make any nominations, especially regarding the S-ranking. You need to be very convincing and you need to have a very dominant and evidenced showcasing of what they have that pushes it enough (or away) as to why they would really have that much of an impact towards the specific metagame.

    I encourage you all to continue posting once you all have further addressed these concerns.
  11. vilepersian

    vilepersian

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    Hi, I begun playing like 2 or 3 months ago and I am ranked around 1550, I only play random, nu and ru.

    I think Persian should not be in the completely useless group, it works very well in nu as a poor's man Ambipom with technician boosted fake out + flich + return, it is a good revenge killer.
    I use it to scare away Zangoose (or often to kill it if the opponent doesn't switch it out)

    I agree with vileplume being ranked higher

    It surprised me that weezing is ranked so low, since it is useful as a wall and against fighting pokemon even in higher tiers.

    edit: Persian also often helps me against Golurk. When I send Persian first against a team that has Golurk, the opponent always guesses I will choose fake out, so it switches in Golurk, I choose bite instead and often I am able to hit Golurk twice in a row cuz Persian is much faster and make it faint.
  12. JoshuaMunoz

    JoshuaMunoz

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    The reason Persian isnt on the list is because it doesnt have any significant niche in NU. Sure it learns Fake Out, but so does Kangaskhan, and it boasts a higher base attack. Persian's got Taunt and a sweet base speed, but it doesnt have anything else going for it since lead Persian is literally walled by EVERY Stealth Rock setter, like Metang, Bastiodon, Regirock, Piloswine, Golem, Maroawak, et cetera, and some of them usually pack Leftovers, so its like a completely useless turn. It can learn Hypnosis, which is quite decent except for the fact that its accuracy is worse than that of Focus Blast. It has a really low, even in NU standards, base attack (Alomomola's got a better attack stat than Persian, Lol). Nasty Plot Persian may seem interesting, but its SpA isnt good either, so you need a TON of turns setting up. Imo, i think Persian should stay in its rank.

    Weezing may seem good in theory, but if you want something to wall fighting types, use Misdreavus or Musharna over it, the former packing the same resistances and immunities and the latter having a reliable recovery move in Moonlight. C-rank is a good place for Weezing to reside in atm.
  13. Nyara

    Nyara

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    Persian is a poor's man version of Kangaskhan, but I think he's not that poor, it's attack is slow, yes, but Persian does have Technician, boosting Fake Out and Bite to really good levels, making it a best Fake Outter and anti-ghost Normal-Type than Kangaskhan. Also, Persian is so fast that you can just forgoe to spend on it's spend, and spend on it's bulk, 252 HP Persian have just 21% less of bulky, and is still almost as fast than 252 Speed Kangaskhan. Hypnosis, Foul Play, Torment (Persian can make good use of it with Protect), Switcheero, Taunt, boosted Thief, Charm, and Nasty Plot (backed with a usable base special attack and great movepool), Persian can use a lot of options.

    I don't think Persian is worst than Beartic, so, I seen him on D-Rank as a pretty possible option.

    Oh, yeah, also, Liepard is on the C-Rank, what niche does have it that Persian doesn't? If you say me Prankster, I think that's not a really good option, as Persian is already faster than the entire metagame, bar few fasters (Liepard is still unnable to doing something against them), choice scarfers, and priority users. Liepard also does have less movepool, and less bulky, and is slower at attacking. With Nasty Plot, Liepard sports a 80 + 40 (120) attack + Hidden Power (70), while Persian sports an attack of 95, and a Hidden Power of 60 + 30 = 90, so, he can really stricke hard with Nasty Plot to anything with the correct Hidden Power (if the normal STAB is important, Persian still sports 60 + 30 + 30 = 120 with Round), so, he can virtually being stronger at the offense than Liepard.

    Echoed Voice Persian can stricke hard, too, the unique thing that's unappeling from Echoed Voice is it's first turn (40 is too weak), but with Technician, the first turn is 40 + 20 + 20 (80), making it a relative good start point (preferably with Nasty Plot), and the second is 80 + 40 = 120, and the third 120 + 60 = 180, and as Persian can carry Hidden Power Dark (or just use Water Pulse, 30% chance to confuse is nice, too) in order to have something to stricke Rocks and Ghosts, not too much can stop a Persian sweep. Technician is a too good ability to just ignore it.

    Anyway, I'm not saying "oh, gosh, Persian is SSS-Rank", or something like that (I seen him as D-Rank), but I don't thing we should just ignore it at the 100%, as relative similar Pokémon are on higher ranks already, Liepard barely have something to make difference from Persian (Encore, at most), and Persian is not "without save" against it's high-rank normal pals.
  14. skylight

    skylight OWNER OF PUMPKABOO.COM JELLY??
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    Plus there's also the fact that Sawk can destroy it now with Mold Breaker (with many opting to use Mold Breaker) and Sawk is generally used a lot and is really useful and psychic types are otherwise used a lot more too as they have less to fear as they did before, which makes it a lot harder for Weezing to perform its role as opposed to how it would've a few months back.
  15. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    Liepard has Prankster support over Persian. Prankster Thunder Wave, Swagger, Encore, Substitute are all very useful. Prankster swagger also boosts the power of Foul Play of which Liepard is a common user. If anything, Liepard can easily be B- or A-rank, despite the hax involved in using Liepard, since with luck, Liepard can literally beat ANYTHING in NU, bar Magic Coat and/or Rock Blast Bastiodon.
  16. The Quasar

    The Quasar

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    My little cent about Ludicolo.

    I agree with Ebest about Ludicolo. I think S-tier is right place for him. When it's raining his cheery smile hides a fast and always successful killer; combined use of Life Orb and Giga Drain (used where it's possible) can keep him immortal, so its good resistance with pokemon with a nature that should bother him (ice-types for example). Surf and Ice Beam are painful weapons that it's hard to hold out.
  17. TheCanadianWifier

    TheCanadianWifier Sorry aboot that, eh?

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    Just re-stating my earlier points, as I feel it was passed over in an S-tier debate. Also, Sweet Jesus probably said it better than I did :]

    Also: some replays, all showing some dragonair destruction. Feel free to critique.
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nu8830374
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nu8732164
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nu8289784
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nu8842326
  18. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87

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    I would like to propose moving Simisear up D-->C. I was kind of surprised to see this, as there are very limited options for fire pokes in the tier since emboar left, and the increase in grass types should make fire types even more valuable. Nasty Plot is a great move to use if the opponent is forced to switch out. Its choice set is also very scary, as a scarfed fire blast from 98 base SpA and the fastest fire poke in the tier isn't anything to scoff at. Specs overheat, especially at blaze range, is obviously a very deadly move and has the speed to be a great revenge killer. There is stiff competition from other fire types like charizard, combusken, magmar, rapidash and camerupt, but I believe that Simisear's weakness to stealth rocks and vulnerability to priority are too overstated, and thus Simisear should deserve some more lovin.
  19. Lolk

    Lolk the cold never bothered me anyway
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    First off, hello NU community my name is Lolkomori and I am new to the Smogon scene. I have stalked Smogon for a while and finally made an account. I hope to get as involved as others are in the NU world soon. :)

    Now for some actual important content relation to the thread:
    Frosty in my opinion is the little brother to Rotom-Fan. It has to rely on blizzard for its extra STAB; even than, fanny's air slash hits the same grass type pokemon. Another reason Fanny is more useable is its ability to switch in on fighting and grass type attacks. Frosty can only safely come in on earthquake (which fanny can do with double immunity, so its cooler) or has to wait for a teammate to die to gain momentum.
    For A rank:
    With a stealth rock weakness, risky STAB, and poor defensive typing, I believe the cons outweigh the pros and Rotom-Frost should be be lowered to B rank, or at least seperated from its brother in some way.
  20. NfskMjmMal

    NfskMjmMal

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    Another note about Zangoose is that even it dies so quickly with its bad bulk and Toxic poisoning, Alomomola's Wish heals 92.7% of Zangoose's HP. That being said, it's hard to get a safe pass out to Zangoose because Alomomola doesn't really force switches that often if it's already been in there for one turn to use Wish.
  21. cbt

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    Ludicolo: Difficult to wall in rain (which is somewhat easy to set up) and functions decently outside of it. It also has a nice defensive typing which gives it a resistance to EQ and Water moves, meaning it isn't that hard to switch it in, as well as good SpDef. Many teams also have a glaring weakness to this.

    Zangoose: Also difficult to wall, with Toxic Boost making it dangerous. It is quite fast for NU as well, and can revenge stuff with QA (i.e weakened or extremely fast mons) Switching in on it is very difficult as a result, especially after having Toxic Boost. SD may seem even more dangerous, but thats complete and total overkill.


    Despite their semireliance on an item/weather, Zangoose and Ludicolo are threatening when said items/weather are not in effect, and their mere threatening presence gives them free turns needed to become lethal sweepers. As a result, Ludicolo and Zangoose should stay S-Rank.
  22. Ninja Dewott

    Ninja Dewott

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    New Poke in question here.

    I propose moving Liepard to B-Rank. Yes, Liepard is somewhat of a gimmicky mon to use and, if you don't get that confusion damage or whatever, then Liepard is down. That doesn't mean, however, that it should be all the way down in C. Firstly, Liepard is just so goddamn annoying. It's fairly easy to bring it in on something and start the horrendous cycle over Swaggering and Substituting, whilst using Foul Play for high damage along the way. True, you can switch out to avoid confusion, but Liepard is just going to do the same thing all over again and can eventually spread paralysis or hazard damage all over your team. Not to mention all the useful benefits Prankster has, being able to stop sweepers in their tracks with a priority Thunder Wave or Swagger. Liepard's speed is also high enough to ensure its own priority is always faster than any that may be carried by others.
  23. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    Nominating Wormadam-Trash for D-Rank. While it's directly outclassed by Metang because it can do everything that Worm does but better, I think Wormadam-Trash has a tiny niche, which is the only fully-evolved Steel-type that isn't weak to either Ground or Fighting. Wormadam also has a great defensive typing, and good defensive stats (Not bad). Only thing holding it back is competition from Metang, lack of recovery and the fact that it's normally a set-up bait for some huge threats, such as Lum Berry SD Samurott.
  24. skylight

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    I agree actually. C-Rank according to the first post is Pokemon that need a lot of support, but yet Liepard needs very little support to be able to take out a lot of Pokemon, including those that could normally beat it if it wasn't for its ability (and hax). While it gets its success through hax you cannot deny that it's still able to do a lot if you play Liepard right, and can ultimately score a few KOs or finish a game you'd otherwise have done worse in without it. It's extremely annoying but... it's good at what it does and chances are it can score at least one or two KO's a match. :(
  25. wynaut bidoof

    wynaut bidoof

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    Hmmm, must move Mothim up to D at least.
    For starters Mothim gets good STAB with just Bug Buzz, Air Slash and HP of choice accounting Tinted Lens as an ability, nothing switches in to Mothim with taking an a**load of damage.
    STAB Tinted Lens Bug Buzz 2HKOes standard defensive Alomomola and 3HKOes defensive Altaria, that is to say Mothim bug sweeps A LOT of threats.( w/o boosts, slowpoke)
    +1 Spe Mothim hits 252 speed which puts it above non-scarf minimum speed electabuzz and everything else slower.
    At +2 Mothim has 336 speed which barely puts it above the Elemental Monkeys and acts as a lethal sweeper.
    Even with the positives , Mothim still suffers horribly from the sharp pointy things which absolutely necessitate a rapid spinner which can keep with the threats it faces.
    Perhaps torkoal or armaldo would suffice....
    I'll just say, with proper support Mothim is virtually capable of ripping apart unprepared teams.
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