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NU Viability Ranking

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Annoyer, Oct 10, 2012.

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  1. The Quasar

    The Quasar
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    My little cent from Liepard. I agree with Ninja Dewott and Starships about B-Rank. Liepard appears to be good enough to support different game strategies. Prankster allows it to be very annoying with Thunder Wave and Swagger as is often the lead of the opponent team. Foul Play also appears to be a weapon should not be underestimated because the target's Attack stat is used in damage calculation. Dangerous.

    P.S.: Welcome Lolkomori!
  2. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    Liepard is good, but held back by the plethora a Fighting types around EVERYWHERE in NU. Its frailty doesn't do it any favors either. Yet, I agree with it being B-rank, since well-played Liepard are very, very dangerous in NU (probably in other tiers as well).

    I would further like to bring Leavanny up again. Emboar and Cinccino are gone, which really made the recent tier shift into Leavanny's favour. Four members of the top-10 is OHKO'd (Golurk, Gardevoir, Ludicolo, Samurott) by Leavanny's STAB-moves, which is a feat by itself, whereas all others bar Braviary and Armaldo are 2HKO'd (but Armaldo still loses if it switches in when SR is up, unless it hits at least four times with Rock Blast in a single turn). It isn't worth E-rank, though I don't mind it if it stays there, so people keep underrating it (and get screwed over, since I do encounter teams which are horrendously weak to Leavanny, causing me to sweep you). Also, quite a few things are just set-up fodder for Leavanny, like Wartortle, Torterra (without Stone Edge, though) and Seismitoad. Leavanny can easily set up with Swords Dance or Dual Screens, or just use Synthesis to regain health lost by Stealth Rock and Life Orb recoil on those Pokémon. Quite often, Leavanny finds a chance to heal off the damage, I know from experience after testing Synthesis + Life Orb, and if it doesn't, usually it has done its job.
    Leavanny is also capable of interrupting Riolu phazing chains with Magic Coat. I suggest once more that it gets out of E-Rank, whether it becomes C- or D-Rank.
  3. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    I agree with Liepard being shifted to B-Rank, just because I have used it with a lot of success. I always go TWave > Encore, because it helps Liepard do it's job better.

    I also support Leavanny being moved up. Not C-rank, but D-rank because it has a good dual-STAB, allowing it to hit some Sap Sipper Sawsbuck switch-ins, notably. It also has good recovery options, and some boosting moves paired with Baton Pass. Although I wouldn't use Magic Coat on Leavanny just because it threatens most of the tier's hazard setter, giving the opponent a free turn if he switches out. Using Magic Coat for the sole purpose of countering a Pokemon who is #117 in NU usage in January isn't the best idea, even though you probably were just pointing it out.
  4. panamaxis

    panamaxis Allons-y!
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    why would you want to put something in B tier that's largely reliant on luck to perform well?
  5. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    It is likely the T-Wave versions that rely the most on luck, but they can still be very useful in a pinch if certain sweepers are threatening to bowl you over (though I'd prefer Volbeat for this role due to better bulk, recovery and GlowPass). The Swagger-Foul Play thing is (merely) there for staying power, allowing Liepard to paralyze numerous opponents throughout the match. Encore variants require more skill and prediction to play, but can be just as, if not more rewarding in the right hands. Wasting a Gorebyss's White Herb is a joy to behold, while T-wave Liepard risks getting massacred 75% of the time by most sweepers, not to mention its helplessness against Substituters. The main advantages of Liepard over the fireflies are Foul Play & its 106 base speed, granting it surprising revenge-killing potential. With all that said, you can't deny that Liepard functions like no other, and does it well enough to earn its place in B, as it has little to no competition in its role.

    Also, damn you Aasgier and your Magic Coat Leavanny >:(
  6. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    Magic Coat also allows Leavanny to handle Alomomola, Tangela, and other status inducers, Liepard amongst them, which Leavanny could not handle otherwise.
    Leavanny rarely bounces back hazards with Magic Coat, as most hazard setters threaten to hit Leavanny for super-effective damage anyway, bar some Probopass and Bastiodon versions and by the time you pointed out they don't carry SE moves, they did set up hazards already.
  7. team grassfire

    team grassfire

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    I would like to nominate octillery for C or even b rank. I have had huge success using a specs octillery alongside volt-turn offensive pokemon like swellow, braviary, and rotom-S. The best way to use him, in my experience is to get swallow in on a volt-switch to something it can outspeed and ko (and preferably badly damage with u-turn) and u-turn out of the incoming regirock or other rock type. Once that is done, just send in octillery and get a basically guaranteed ko on something unless the opponent has a ludicolo or mantine. With a moveset of water spout, energy ball, ice beam, and surf, nothing in nu besides those two can switch in safely. In fact, against almost every team I have fought, octillery can ohko, or outspeed and 2hko the entire opposing team by using water spout. Occasionally a water absorb will come up, but almost all of these are ohkoed by a coverage move bar mantine, lapras which is 2hkoed by energy ball after stealth rock, and cradily which falls to a pair of ice beams. Some calcs:

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regice: 187-222 (51.51 - 61.15%) -- 94.92% chance to 2HKO after leftovers
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Leafeon: 246-290 (84.53 - 99.65%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gorebyss: 220-259 (87.3 - 102.77%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mantine (swift swim): 129-153 (44.94 - 53.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 164-194 (53.94 - 63.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 324-382 (60.67 - 71.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ludicolo: 147-173 (49.16 - 57.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regice: 150-177 (41.2 - 48.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Even the mighty regice, the most specially defensive pokemon in nu falls to two water spouts without a single entry hazard almost all of the time with its standard set, and even maximum special defense regice succumbs after stealth rock, so nothing neutral and slower can switch in. Even most resists crumble to water spout, like the reasonably bulky leafeon, which is usually ohkoed after rocks with its swords dance set. Octillery doesn’t really need spin support to stay healthy, since the whole point to using him is to ohko practically every stealth rock setter in nu. Even if you mispredict with your u-turning bird, octillery can still punish the accursed rock types by switching in while they set up stealth rocks and getting a ko. His defenses aren’t that bad (75/75/75) even though he needs to almost max out his speed (at least 160 evs for base uninvested base 65s) giving with the ability to revenge things like scarf breviary late game, especially with the anti-hazard game he likes to play to help volt-turn out. All and all I think he has a solid niche, earning him at least a C rank, but I would really prefer to see him in B.
  8. DragonBorn

    DragonBorn

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    hmmmmm that entresting but the thing is before octillary can even fire off his Water Spout or Ice beam Leafeon already kills it
    252 Atk Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Octillery: 332-392 (113.69 - 134.24%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Regice out speeds and 2hkos with Thunderbolt
    252+ SpA Regice Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Octillery: 240-284 (82.19 - 97.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Gorybess outspeeds and 2hkos
    252 SpA Life Orb Gorebyss Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Octillery: 231-273 (79.1 - 93.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    if Mantine has Water Absorb you lose and it 2hkos and outspeeds

    52+ SpA Life Orb Mantine Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Octillery: 161-191 (55.13 - 65.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Roselia 2hkos with giga drain
    0 SpA Roselia Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Octillery: 204-242 (69.86 - 82.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Ludicolo outspeeds and ohkos

    252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Octillery: 346-408 (118.49 - 139.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    and the other regiice 2hkos aswell so unless there switching in you probably not going to get a kill not to mention once they hit you you choiced spec Water Spout BP is going to drop like a stone
  9. team grassfire

    team grassfire

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    I think you missed the point a little. It does matter that leafeon is ohkoed by water spout on the switch. It isn't supposed to best it one on one, it is supposed to kill it or regirock, the opponents choice. The hit on mantine weakens it to the point where swellow can ko with quick attack after stealth rock. I realize octillery is countered by ludicolo and mantine, but that is literally it in nu with just stealth rock, because everything else is outsped and 2hkoed (especially with the speed investment you gave it, octillery outspeeds min speed roselia and regice) or just ohkoed on the switch in (ok, a few pokes can take a waterspout and out speed, but all I can think of is max hp/special defense gardevior with thunderbolt and some samurott).

    Edit: also, octillery doesn't just force a ko on rock types, other reasonably bulky pokes can be koed as well.
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Musharna: 357-420 (82.44 - 96.99%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Mushurna can easily be disposed of if it has taken almost any damage, not to mention that it can't ko back, so even at full health with min damage rolls from octillery it loses one on one.
  10. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    I never use Octillery outside of Trick Room because it's Speed is just too low to be used, it's outsped by almost everything that threatens it. If you're using it in Trick Room, it's great, but not many people use TR in NU.
  11. panamaxis

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    Liepard has a notable niche in priority twave / swagger foul play etc. Its notable flaw is that it relies on luck to actually do damage unless you're facing like... golurk / rampardos. Disagree with B tier, C tier seems fine to me, but then again i don't really care either way.
  12. FortressDoor

    FortressDoor

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    I would like to nominate Ursaring for B Rank]

    It is a very threatening Guts Wallbreaker. It is Bulkier, and hits harder than Zangoose. However, Zangoose is faster and has priority, but Ursaring seems to fit the bill for B Rank. It needs support, something that can paralyze to allow Ursaring to outspeed things is useful, but not completely needed, as its bulk isn't horrible. Rapid spin support is great, as Uraaring will get worn down, but Zangoose likes Spin support as well, and it is S Rank.
  13. ium

    ium dein haar riecht gut
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    ursaring's bulk is negligible when you consider the fact that it's quite slow (it'll need to take more hits on average than zangoose), has no priority to bypass its lack of speed, and most importantly, has to deal with toxic or flame orb chipping away at its hp every turn. zangoose is already powerful enough for the majority NU, so i don't really see a huge reason for ursaring to be b-rank.

    as for octillery, there's so many other water-types in the tier, like samurott, that can nab a 2HKO on almost everything in NU as well. yea, you have to nail them with the right move on the switch in, but at least these water-types have an impressive speed unlike octillery. when you think about it, there's only a handful of pokemon in the tier that it both outspeeds and threatens out, so it's quite rare for octillery to actually have a full-powered water spout to keep firing off. it'll pretty much fall apart more easily against offensive teams unlike ludicolo, samurott, or the shell smash sweepers which generally fare well against most team archetypes.
  14. FortressDoor

    FortressDoor

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    The need for a tier up is not huge, but nothing else was being discussed and I felt like it could become B Rank.

    I may have made the comparsion between Zangoose and Ursaring too early. If you are trying to sweep with Guts Ursaring, you are doing it wrong. Ursaring will not be sweeping, but it is a great wall breaker
  15. Celever

    Celever

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    Poor ursaring, once again having its best ability forgotten...
    Swords dance on the first turn of the fight while the opponent nearly always sets up rocks, if not you will survive. Then let toxic orb set in to activate quick feet. Ursaring is more than good enough B, and I would have brought it up sooner if I didn't think he was there already.
  16. scorpdestroyer

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    Agree, Ursaring deserved a place in B rank at least. Quick Feet, to me, is its better set. A 210 base power move after STAB in Facade, along with powerful coverage moves like CC and Crunch is nothing to scoff at and Quick Feet with Toxic Orb acts like a Choice Scarf with the liberty to switch moves. Even without Guts boost, it has base 130 attack as well as SD to boost it further. Not to mention its alternative set in Guts, being able to take down the nastiest of walls especially after a SD boost. It's bulk isn't too bad either and he certainly is able to take more hits than Zangoose.
  17. ZandgaiaX

    ZandgaiaX

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    you never have faced this I take:

    Liepard @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 80 HP/8 Def/252 Sp. Def/168 Spe
    Timed Nature
    - Dark Pulse
    - Encore
    - Yawn
    - Trick

    Very different from the 'standard' set, this set can cause a massive amount of switches and if played right, negate two pokémon from being viable for at least several turns, truely a nightmare to face when played right by the user. B for Liepard!
  18. FortressDoor

    FortressDoor

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    I completely forgot about Quick Feet. Another reason it should move up.
  19. Leafshield

    Leafshield

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    Yeah I think Ursaring is definitely worthy of B Rank status. It's attack is monstrous after a SD, Quick Feet turns its lackluster speed and makes it usable, and its coverage with CC, Crunch, and Facade hits near everything in the tier for neutral damage. It's a great wallbreaker that should never be compared to the sweeper known as Zangoose, since playing Ursaring the same as Zangoose means you aren't playing Ursaring to its full potential.
  20. Chieliee

    Chieliee

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    i've only played this tier for 2 days but i notice roselia's not in the list so i'm going to nominate it for B rank because of it's great special bulk and being one of the best spikers in the tier (i think??) It's also got Natural Cure, which is really cool combined with Rest.
  21. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    Roselia is tiered already. The OP is just lazy and that's why Roselia isn't placed (in A-rank).

    Gardevoir is S-Rank as well already.
  22. team grassfire

    team grassfire

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    Maybe I wasn’t clear enough concerning the niche octillery has over the other water types. As far as I can see, the competition in regards to being outclassed as a water type comes from three pokemon, ludicolo, gorebyss, and samurott. Two of these are S-rank, and one is A-rank. Before I start my argument, octillery is generally worse than all three, and is only going for C-rank. However, it is not completely outclassed. Its niche lies in obtaining many more kos against water weak or neutral enemies than its counterparts, as well as in having far fewer counters, because it hits much harder than any of them. A full health water spout hits 1.6x as hard as a modest life orb ludicolo hydro pump, 1.29x as hard as a modest specs samurott hydro pump, and 1.11x as strong as a shell-smashed gorebyss surf. Note that water spout has full accuracy unlike hydro pump. Now you are thinking to yourself, this may be true, but what does it matter? Octillery has a 45 base speed, so who cares? These pokemon care:

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 500-590 (137.36 - 162.08%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 322-382 (88.46 - 104.94%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 315-374 (86.53 - 102.74%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO

    Octillery is the only one to guarantee regirock never moves.

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Eelektross: 417-492 (117.79 - 138.98%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Eelektross: 270-320 (76.27 - 90.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Eelektross: 263-309 (74.29 - 87.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Octillery is the only who doesn’t get eelectrocuted (or u-turned on to the point where reasonable priority take it down in ludicolo’s case, but whatever, eelectrocuted sounds better).

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 399-471 (106.68 - 125.93%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 257-304 (68.71 - 81.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 251-296 (67.11 - 79.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Once again, the power comes in handy (yes gurdurr can mach punch but it only does about 25%, so octillery still 2hkos with about half its health gone)

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 258-304 (60.84 - 71.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 168-199 (39.62 - 46.93%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 164-192 (38.67 - 45.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regice: 187-222 (51.51 - 61.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regice: 121-144 (33.33 - 39.66%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regice: 118-140 (32.5 - 38.56%) -- 98.61% chance to 3HKO

    Octillery is the only one capable of powering through these two without a struggle. Not to mention hydro pump’s chance of hitting three times in a row is about 50-50.

    There are many more pokemon octillery can power through that they cannot, and while it may be a bit of a struggle to keep water spout at full power, remember that octillery only needs to find a humble niche several ranks below his fellow s-ranked water types to obtain a C-rank. Octillery is a superior wall breaker, but an inferior sweeper. Here is a list of nu pokemon octillery outspeeds and ohkos (many after stealth rocks or somewhat unreliably- I did say he works best on volt-turn) that no other water type in nu can:

    240 HP / 0 SpD Musharna, 252 HP / 4 SpD Muk, 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Metang, 236 HP / 0 SpD Kecleon, 0 HP / 148 SpD Eviolite Wynaut, 252 HP / 4 SpD Ampharos, 252 HP / 0 SpD Beheeyem, 252 HP / 4 SpD Swalot, 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Duosion, 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr, 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle, 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass (sturdy, but whatever, I am hoping for mold breaker octillery in gen 6), 252 HP / 0 SpD Luxray, 252 HP / 4 SpD Wormadam-S, 252 HP / 0 SpD Eelektross, 252 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor ( just barely oustpeeds if octillery is max speed and garbodor is min speed, not to be relied upon), and many more pokemon if they can be slightly injured.

    It also helps that many fast water resists like leafeon can be taken out by water spout in one hit to reduce prediction samurott or ludicolo may have to go through. If you are still not convinced octillery deserves to be C-rank, then you probably never will be, but at least I can frantically scream trick room.

    P.S. I also support ursaring for b-rank. Another nice aspect no one has pointed out is that it is impossible to know if ursaring is using quick feet or guts if a toxic orb is used regardless, which can make revenge killing or switching in even trickier.
  23. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
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    @team grassfire: those calcs are interesting, but those are solely for Water Spout; you fail to take into account hazards. Also, many of those 2HKOs don't work out if they attack you as well. So while you may be able to hit them on the switch and make those KOs, you cannot make them if you are the one switching in (a common prospect since otherwise you would have to be facing something that Octillery can easily scare out). More importantly, Octillery almost always needs to have a free switch-in to keep Water Spout as strong as possible, so you can't really say that it is likely that you'll be hitting these walls on the switch-in. Special Defensive Regiorck isn't used very often either. I will say that Octillery has a small niche regardless as a Trick Room sweeper and decent wall-breaker, but D-rank is as high as I'd give it.
  24. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    Agreed with WhiteDMist.
    Not only as a Trick Room sweeper, but also as a Baton Pass recipient (Quiver Dance, mostly, but it is also devastating at the recieving end of a full Baton Pass chain)because of its ability Suction Cups and its expansive movepool.

    D-Rank is the place for Octillery.
  25. Leafshield

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    I agree with D Rank for Octillery. He has very few specific niches in the current meta, and only really works in Trick Room teams or in Baton Pass chains, both of which are easily taken down by a lot of common threats, such as Skuntank and Misdreavus.
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