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NU Viability Ranking

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Annoyer, Oct 10, 2012.

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  1. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    When looking at abilities which double/halve stats, the difference is much bigger than you think. How would Azumarill, Medicham and Zweilous receive their reputations as hard hitters if the former 2's attacks are "doubled into 100 or 120 respectively" or the latter's "~127 attack stat"? To put into perspective, max Attack Adamant Gigas has roughly the same striking power as UNINVESTED PHYSICAL HEATMOR. Would you want to put up with something like that for 5 turns? As the nail in the coffin, Gigas doesn't have the proper means to stall out those turns. If it tries Parafusion, it loses out on coverage. If it tries Substitute, it's losing health that it can't recover easily. If it gets statused, it's as good as neutered/dead. I personally wouldn't bother with it.
  2. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    Speaking of heatmor shouldn't it be D-rank?
    Heatmor has a pretty good movepool, allowing mixed sets, special sets and even some physical sets. It gets good coverage with giga drain
    , superpower, sucker punch and fire blast, being able to hit most of the tier super effectively. Thanks to the B2W2 move tutors, heatmor can now run physical sets with it's new Superpower, Fire punch and Thunderpunch. While it doesn't hit very hard, heatmor can do major damage with its mixed set, being able to defeat alomomola and lickylicky. Heatmor is a very underrated threat and should not be taken lightly.
  3. The Zororoaster

    The Zororoaster

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    I...see your point. I might start using Lickilicky, and can definitely see why everyone else would want to.

    I really need T-Wave support to help my Gorebyss sweep though, so I might use Regirock. Stealth Rock support + TWave + 100 SpD + 100 Attack from the start.


    I don't suppose we can at least get Regigigas up a little bit for looking way cooler than Lickilicky?
  4. Celever

    Celever

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    No. JUst no.

    Anything in NU can be used well if played correctly (almost). I used a girafarig as a noob, it swept well and was the mvp of my team. It should obviously be D then.
    A pokemon can do well in a meta-game, but if it is completely out-classed in everything it tries then there is no point using it. "While it doesn't hit very hard," it doesn't take hits well either, so what can heatmor do?

    " Heatmor is a very underrated threat and should not be taken lightly."

    No, no he is not.
  5. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    @Celever: Well, depends. D-Rank is D-Rank; Pokémon which are useless, except in specific circumstances, and it can be for a variety of reasons that they suddenly have an use.

    Now, let's go on to the brunt of this post which went on when writing the prior two sentences originally directed to Celever, which is about the definition of D-Rank and that I'm thinking it is a somewhat odd definition, but it requires a lengthy post to explain. Take it as something to think about. No initial tier change suggestions bolded, considering it - the D-Rank definition and how usable a Pokémon must be to reside there - is just food for thought and something I would like to see your opinion upon.

    The definition of D-rank is the following:
    That being said, it is very likely, that when you make a team, you will not get to use a D-Rank Pokémon. D-Rank Pokémon are Pokémon, which are only useful on very specific teams because they can either fulfill a specific niche that team needs in the fifth or in the last slot, or because those Pokémon are only effective when you build your entire team around them (like Pikachu).

    I only found an use for Leavanny and Noctowl which are currently E-Rank, so I can tell people about why they can be useful, but also why they can be useless/outclassed on so many teams. But now I think more about it while writing this rather long post, more Pokémon which currently reside in E-Rank can be useful on specific teams, which automatically means they are no longer E-Rank but D-Rank, according to the definition of D-Rank I quoted above.

    With this in mind, it looks like D-Rank has very few Pokémon, and that many Pokémon fulfilling the definition aren't D-Rank but E-Rank instead. There are many outclassed Pokémon in NU which are outclassed - the name says it all - at everything, but one or two things, and thus serve a specific niche on a few teams. That being said, it can be that you have to use that D-Rank Pokémon in the last slot, though in many other cases that Pokémon will be useless, and it might very well be the case that you never find an use for that Pokémon again.
    Noctowl (special tank /w Imsomnia), Leavanny (Grass type that can kill Psychics and doesn't mind taking a Focus Blast (looking at Sawsbuck there)), Octillery (Trick Room sweeper/Baton Pass recipient), Machoke (DynamicPunch, and greater bulk than Gurdurr), Heatmor (fire type with a somewhat unique movepool), Sneasel (anti-meta, fast) and probably a few others I forgot about.
    They are by no means good Pokémon, as there is really no way you can just slap them on a team and expect your team to be better, but they all serve a specific niche and can be used without being outclassed at everything they do. Outclassed, but still decent Pokémon which can be used well enough, are things like Girafarig, Raticate, Purugly, Persian and the likes, even if they are only decent because they are moderately fast, in a tier in which 80 Base Speed is already considered a good speed.
    I can see them being used, and see them being useful on several teams, even if I have yet to find an use for them.

    Then, if we take the Showdown ladder and not tournaments between better players as a requirement for being useful in competitive Pokémon, things with pathetic stats but large movepools, like Castform, become better because of their surprise value potential. D-Rank? Probably, probably not, as walls hardwall those Pokémon with a passion and they are still useless as they will only get you stuck at a certain point in the ladder, because the skill level becomes too high for the Pokémon to be usable.

    Does that mean they can be all in D-Rank? I'll leave that to others to decide. But I think this is something to think about. As I just said, it might be very well that they can be useful on a specific team and I've seen quite a few cases of this with pretty much all of the Pokémon I mentioned above, and yes, that includes Castform.
  6. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87 "Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
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    Alright, I get what you're saying. If it is justifiable to place one poke on one specific team that will work, it will automatically be D rank. So I can place a level 1 rattata on a team with focus sash, endeavor and quick attack, and can kill a poke, so rattata should be D rank. Or I need a bug special wall, I'm going to use shuckle (sorry) vespiquen (sorry) or ledian (you suck). Or I'm going to use a trick room team, and watchog has analytic, so i should use that. So all of these pokes could function on these teams. Great. More power to you. Too bad you're probably going to lose. I completely agree with Celever, just because you can find a poke good for one team, doesn't justify it for D rank. Otherwise, hypothetically, every poke would be in D rank. At least the current D rank pokes can either place dents on teams, set up hazards, attempt to sweep, or have one specific job, like trapinch.

    Noctowl with Insomnia: Sub BU braviary can avoid sleep as well, and be an offensive presence. Altaria can somewhat take a sleep and switch out, while having more helpful resistances. Who uses sleep anyway? Jumpluff, exeggutor, tangela, butterfree? All of these poke minus Jumpluff are handled by braviary, and these pokes cannot really touch altaria, except maybe butterfree with quiver dances. Plus, Hypno does the same job so much better, and with 85/70/115 is better than 100/50/96, is not weak to rocks, and can somewhat handle fighting types and choiced electrics.

    Leavanny: Extremely predictable, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but you know it has sd/x-scissor/leaf blade/filler. So why not just switch out when a psychic type is in? Plus Pinsir can do the job so much better at taking out psychics, and has additional uses such as choice scarf and stealth rocks. Exeggutor can also take focus blasts, but it can also take psychics, where leavanny cannot really take too many of those as it is sr weak. Plus the 3 clauses you used in order to justify using this poke is a reason why you should consider looking else where.

    Octillery is strong under trick room, but that's about it. Why not switch into a special poke like Gardevoir, Samurott or Charizard, who boast very high special attack and have speed, unlike octillery who would probably need at least +3 to be effective. And trick room is fairly hard to use and, by experienced players, easy to stall out. Plus its defenses aren't that great, though it can take a hit or maybe 2

    Machoke: Doesn't have greater bulk than Gurdurr (80/70/60 machoke vs 85/85/50 Gurdurr). Plus, both pokes cannot really take special moves/psychic anyway. Machoke is somewhat similar, and the confusion rate is nice if you want to risk that. But gurdurr has priority, great abilities in iron fist and guts and can recover without resting, things machoke wold die for. Machoke isn't bad, just gurdurr has so many more opprtunities to help your teams and doesnt always need the bulk ups to be effective. Plus, dynamicpunch Golurk is more threatening if you want to rely on hax. Or liepard lol

    Heatmor: Pathetic defenses. 85/66/66 is pretty bad, and consider losing 25% from stealth rocks, you are screwed. Maybe you can get a sucker punch off. Because it is too slow to actually use its impressive attacking stats. Unless you want trick room again. Charizard is better special attacker and is faster, rapidash better physical attacker and faster, and magmar is bulkier with eviolite-- and faster.

    Sneasel is C rank and can be a very late gate threatening poke with priority. is cannot take any hits though. But I can see it being C rank.

    Look at the Dark Horse Pokemon for example. All pokes that are in Hall of fame are all on the threats list minus Dodrio. This shows that even the pokes not used very often can be still pretty good pokes, hence why they are on the viability list. It is a pretty impressive feat to get these pokes to the guidelines set because of the lack of high tiered pokes on your team. However, the pokes you mentioned have such a small niche that's its not worth letting a player considering playing the nu tier to think that those pokes mentioned are even somewhat viable.
  7. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    No, you misunderstood me. I mean with being viable for D-Rank, that this Pokémon even when rarely usable, will still be better than any other option when you are building the team. That if you spit through NU thrice, you still get the same Pokémon.
    Thus, I think its use should be truly justified and it should be hard or even almost impossible to find a good replacement for that Pokémon if a RMT has to be made.

    That being said, I wanted to talk about the definition of D-Rank to clear things up for the future, not so much about the Pokémon I listed - they were just examples of Pokémon being similarly useful/useless and probably requiring a very specific team to function at their best or to be irreplacable at all.
    If we take a loose definition of D-Rank, they can all be added there, if we take a stricter definition with them being rarely the best choice to add on the team, they can stay in E-Rank or should be individually looked at, but that's not where this conversation is about - it is about the D-Rank in general.

    I overlooked Sneasel though, I thought it was missing in the list at all which looked somewhat silly to me. Yes, C-Rank looks nice to me.
  8. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    Heatmor has great coverage with it's attacks, having attacks like Superpower, giga drain, fire blast and sucker punch which have very good coverage in nu, which make up for it's average attacking stats. Heatmor is like a classic wallbreaker, being able to 2HKO walls like lickylicky and regirock with superpower and giga drain after SR. Heatmor also has sucker punch to revenge kill weakened foes. It can run a few physical sets, but they are usually mediocre. Heatmor's strange movepool certainly gives it a niche, making it at least a D-rank pokemon.
  9. NeverUsedTier

    NeverUsedTier

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    I think monferno should join competitive in more people's minds. it can do many different sets, in fact it is the pokemon that i have personally made the most different sets for. it can be sash rocks lead, bulky eviolite, fake out uturn scout, choice band/scarf, nasty plot/swords dance/bulk up. he almost has many great qualities and his movepool is giant. it makes me sad that smogon doesnt even have a set for him.
  10. Kyuzeth

    Kyuzeth

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    Outclassed by Combusken.
  11. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest GHOSTS
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    No no no no no, let Monferno rot in E Rank. It doesn't even have a good niche in the metagame. SR Lead is bad, even with Cinccino leaving the tier, it can't do its job well, not to mention suicide leads are a thing of the past. It's so frail it can't even use Eviolite well. He can run offensive sets, but 78 Offensive stats are meh at best and outclassed by Sawk and Gurdurr. It's not a good Pokemon , leave it in E.
  12. Celever

    Celever

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    Heatmor is only barely better, though.
  13. Iris

    Iris

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    it has endeavor and uturn going for it but besides that it is rather weak
  14. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    Heatmor has a better movepool, ranging from giga drain to superpower. Heatmor is not a bad pokemon, which is why it should go up to D-rank (if the list is updated). I explained that in an earlier post.
  15. Celever

    Celever

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    And if you recall, I corrected it for you.

    Heatmor is a bad pokemon, it has mediocre bulk, mediocre speed. Onix with eviolite, for instance, is in terms of the defense stat only a better (or just below) physical wall than alomomola. Kinda like Heatmor, it has decent attacking stats but nothing else.

    Heatmor has a better movepool you say? Well Furret has a pretty damn good movepool too, should Furret be E? Personally I would use Furret over Heatmor if I HAD to choose.
  16. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    You're making the wrong kind of comparison, celever. Heatmor's movepool probably lends itself toward wallbreaking...if Simisear didn't possess similiar coverage (Grass Knot instead of Giga Drain) and much better speed. The fact that Simisear has Nasty Plot to greatly enhance its power pretty much dooms Heatmor to mediocrity, as it only has Hone Claws which merely boosts the accuracy as opposed to power of its Special moves and does next to nothing for its bad physical movepool. Did you know Heatmor can't learn Overheat?

    I know what you're thinking Magcargo2: "so what if Simisear can perform better, Heatmor can do work too!" Now consider Heatmor's stat placement. It has poor defenses (as well as poor defensive typing) so it is crucial that Heatmor must not be struck by opponents by either a) outspeeding things or b) OHKOing everything in plain sight. After Nasty Plot, Simisear can do both; all Heatmor can do against faster foes is Sucker Punch, which I've said above is really darn weak. Even Beheeyem, another pokemon with low defenses and bad speed, can circumvent this with Trick Room or power up with Analytic. Simply put, Heatmor simply cannot overcome its glaring flaws.

    Still not convinced? Then we shall take a look at Seviper, a fellow pokemon who had also been overshadowed by its natural rival. It has even worse defenses than Heatmor while packing the same speed, but packs an even bigger wallbreaking movepool in Sludge Bomb, Flamethrower, Earthquake, Aqua Tail, Giga Drain, as well as a stronger Sucker Punch, a couple of these moves are shared by Heatmor. So why doesn't Seviper see use? Quite bluntly, low defenses combine with sluggish speed is enough to ruin any pokemon (unless their abilities can save them). Rampardos is a prime example of this dilemma, but even then it can overcome its speed issue with Rock Polish. Seviper can also Coil to boost both attack and defense. What can Heatmor do for itself, because Hone Claws isn't going to help much if you're swiftly KOed before you can utilize the boosts.

    Heatmor's movepool is colorful for a Fire-type, but really isn't anything special anymore. Rapidash has Low Kick, Wild Charge and Drill Run, Charizard can Dragon Pulse and Air Slash, Camerupt can use Ground and Rock moves, and of course Simisear, the final nail in the coffin, pretty much takes nearly all of what makes Heatmor unique and casts it aside to the depths of E-Rank. NU's Fire-types are versatile enough that you should never even consider Heatmor for your team unless you're in PU or something. Heatmor isn't that terrible, it just doesn't have a place in the metagame because it doesn't have the stats and moves for it to succeed.
  17. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    Heatmor is really the only fire type capable of going mixed and benefits from it greatly but i'll let it stay in E-rank, for now. Also, I would like to demote combusken to C-Rank. While it is good late game, Combusken has many flaws, such as horrible bulk and relying on unreliable moves (special set). Base 85 offenses aren't really good and while it can somewhat migate it's attack with swords dance, Combusken finds it hard to setup with those terrible defenses. It's not a bad pokemon, but it has many flaws that prevent it from being B-Rank.
  18. chalenged

    chalenged

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    I believe shedinja should at the very least be D-Rank. D-Rank is defined as:
    Shedinja definately is capable of doing it's selected task, which is not only being able to sweep unprepared teams, but also effortlessly force out things like shell smash gorebyss (which is surprisingly uncommon). It does need rapid spin support, but is a great pivot for your team. It is also a sort of extra win condition if all of their ways to KO it are gone. Most people just don't use shedinja correctly when they go about using it.
  19. NeverUsedTier

    NeverUsedTier

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    uh yeah, it is definitely not for many reasons. combusken plays a completely different role and only does one thing which is trying to abuse speed boost. monferno on the other hand can do a whole handfull of sets also it has access to so many moves. one of my favorite sets is sash/eviolite, nasty plot, and 3 moves usually varying between vacuum wave, flamethrower, HP rock/grass and encore. my current set atm is adamant band, now monferno is blessed to have many different moves keen for a choiced set. my favorite moves are mach punch, CC, flare blitz, and u-turn. and a lot of people just see the stats of pokemon, sometimes you have to look past that and see some of their moves. monferno adamant has 280 attack. now add the choice band and make it 420. 420 attack with STAB CC and FB which are both base 120 base power will hit just about everything really hard.

    but its not just all that, what i think is one of the best qualities monferno has is its amazing surprise factor. usually people (probably like you :P) would think monferno sucks and whoever uses it is automatically a noob. but then question yourselves when monferno KO's a poke or 2.

    just my thought, i proabably could have more to write but thats it for now. i hope this may have opened some of your thought though i know most people are naturally close-minded.
  20. JoshuaMunoz

    JoshuaMunoz

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    I've been using Combusken on 2 teams (both of which actually reached the ladder, one in the top 10 with the alt "RealSea Breaking", and the other one using the dark horse project), and it is not as bad as you think it may be. First of all, it is quite powerful because of its 120 base power STABs. Yes, the accuracy sucks, but when it hits, it hurts. Modest Focus Blast from Combusken does about 70%~~ on a freaking max max Lickilicky! So, with the right support, preferably hazard support, it can really be threatening. The list doesn't end there, if you don't like relying on missing, Combusken can use Flamethrower > Substitute. Combusken may not look good on paper, with its fragility and all, but it is a threat to stuff like offensive teams roaming the tier, after it obtains a couple of Speed Boosts, of course. Though its quite weak to priority, like Aqua Jet and Zangoose's Quick attack. It should stay in mid/low B-Rank.

    Concerning Monferno, well, I tried it out, and it has a niche of being the only U-turner not weak to rocks with a base 80 speed (except for lumineon [lol]). It's STABS are good, it just doesn't hit too hard without a choices item. It can run a variety of sets, such as SD/NP but it usually isn't very reliable because of its nonexistent bulk. But it can finish of stuff like Zangoose with a banded Mach punch (quick attack from Zangoose does 50%), Im not too sure about Monferno though, it does have certain niches, maybe low D rank?

    EDIT: And why is no one updating the rankings? ;.;
  21. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    I tried combusken too, though I tried a swords dance set. Now that no one prepares for emboar and altaria just isn't as common, It's actually proven to be a great mon that often pulled off late game sweeps. While Life orb is usualy combusken's prefered item, I tried gving it the eviolite to give it a bit of time to set up and it worked wonders. Combusken's defensive typing is actually not that bad and it finds quite a lot of oppurtunities to set up at low cost. Protect will give you a second speed boost and with a jolly nature and a SD boost, you're faster than rotom-S and only 30 points weaker than cb emboar (21 stronger than jolly cb boar).

    Couple of other things to note about combusken.

    Resistance to sucker punch
    Weakness to aqua jet
    flare blitz recoil makes combusken more effective late game
    sky uppercut is best secondary STAB and has 90 accuracy
    There's nothing quite as humiliating as being swept by a karate flame chicken
  22. Magcargo

    Magcargo Okay
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    Ok, so I underestimated combusken. It actually can rip apart teams with it's special attacks. Just watch out for altaria.
  23. Wobble

    Wobble

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    Im going to...possibly regretfully spearhead the Liepard hype train for the next few weeks as really, it's arguably a top 10 mon in this tier currently. It's just so dominant and so disruptive any time it's used...it's like the three point shot in basketball, even marginally skilled players can equalize a game and take momentum with just one free Liepard switch in. It's purely devastating....and I believe if it was rampant, it would singlehandedly stop Musharna from running the one attack sets it loves to use so much.

    Switching into a Liepard with a sub is an almost impossible task...the thing really has no counters. It can consistently beat things that should beat it almost every time like Choice Scarf Sawk....which it beats Band even easier due to heavy damage from Foul Play....priority users can hit it hard but nothing with Mach Punch can reliably outspeed it to bypass a T-Wave or Swagger unless for some reason you are using Choice Scarf Mach Punch Magmar(strong)....so really it's only REAL counters are things like Linoone which can hit it with Extremespeed before it gets a Swagger or T-Wave off. And we all know how rare Linoone is...and mediocre.


    The fact that this thing is a threat to take out 2 mons and paralyze another during any given game no matter how well built the other team is makes me think that the C viability it's currently given is quite laughable. And it needs absolutely no team support whatsoever to wreck havoc. I've seen troll teams of a single Liepard take out half of someone's team on the ladder just from the pure ridiculousness of Swagger/Twave/Sub/Foul Play....compliment Liepard with teammates that actually appreciate it's ability to cripple things and outright KO them and it's a huge threat.

    I'm nominating Liepard for A rank.
  24. Celever

    Celever

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    Can't agree more with Liepard out of C rank, but I think it better belongs in B. It can run loads of different sets, and you can't know which until it lets off move, which may have crippled one of your team members with just that move. As punchshroom has also shown, it can be used on many kinds of teams, and for such a frail pokemon is brilliant for stall.

    Besides that though is Murkrow. If liepard is going from C to A with its pretty bad bulk and prankster, why should Murkrow not follow suite with its much better bulk (with eviolite) and prankster? Liepard has better movepool on paper, however Murkrow, having to improvise, has found moves like featherdance which completely cripple switch ins, giving you a free sub or roost while they switch. Liepard is, to really be honest, out-classed by Murkrow. The annoying thins is that nobody knows it. That is why Liepard for B, and Murkrow for A.
  25. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    Liepard has Encore and parafusion access though, which is what makes Liepard so dangerous. Murkrow does not have this.
    Featherdance might be annoying, but how does that help you against a T-Bolt?
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