NU Viability Ranking

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Ok, so I underestimated combusken. It actually can rip apart teams with it's special attacks. Just watch out for altaria.
I actually tried a set with HP ice on Combusken instead of sub, and it worked pretty well. No one suspected it, and it took out altaria every time.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Liepard has Encore and parafusion access though, which is what makes Liepard so dangerous. Murkrow does not have this.
Featherdance might be annoying, but how does that help you against a T-Bolt?
Murkrow does have thunder wave, but no confusion. The thing is though, is that first off if you are using encore Liepard you are using it wrong, blunt but true. Besides that though is that Murkrow has far better bulk and cripples almost all physical attackers with featherdance.
Liepard is quite frankly a gimmick and hax most of the time, use Murkrow right and its pretty reliable.
Murkrow can't save itself from a thunderbolt, (besides sub) liepard can't save itself from an X-scissor if, say, the opponent doesn;t hit itself with confusion.
 

Punchshroom

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Murkrow does have access to Swagger + Foul Play as well, as I've had the misfortune of facing both Liepard and Murkrow on the same team (and miraculously defeating them).
Why is Encore Liepard dismissed as a threat while Murkrow is not (not saying that it isn't.)? Murkrow has to deal with a crippling SR weakness and lack of Leftovers recovery to claim superior bulk to Liepard. Liepard can slowly regain health lost from Substitute passively while Murkrow has to do so with Roost, which eats up a moveslot. Encore Liepard also discourages setup of any kind, while Murkrow can do little about a Substitute in its face. Can Mrurkow beat CM Signal Beam Musharna? Not unless it gets lucky, and that's pretty disappointing for one of NU's more notable Dark types. Liepard makes it an auto-lose condition for Musharna if it did not Signal Beam right before/when Liepard enters battle. I'd even say Encore Liepard is more reliable than T-Wave Liepard, because it can guarantee that free turn that Liepard sorely needs to start its disruptive chain (if the opponent switches out predicting Encore, setup a Sub), which T-Wave Liepard only does so 25% of the time. In that sense, Murkrow and Liepard function differently enough from each other to differentiate their roles, despite their similarities as Prankster Dark-types.
It also should be noted that Encore Liepard played a big part in helping me bring down both Murkrow and Liepard, and can handle most Murkrow sets in general.
 

dcae

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Murkrow does have access to Swagger + Foul Play as well, as I've had the misfortune of facing both Liepard and Murkrow on the same team (and miraculously defeating them).
I think you might have played me, I've been recently testing a Swagger/Foul Play Murkrow and Liepard together along with a Scarf Ditto to clean up by taking advantage of Swagger boosts if Liepard is KOed. I can attest to the effectiveness of both the Pokemon in the current metagame, I have beaten many teams using the two to troll out the opponent's Pokemon. I would nominate them for A tier due to the fact both of them can use many different sets, and the fact that they can abuse certain of them a lot. B tier could also be very viable because both get walled by Pokemon like Alomomola and defensive Steels because they have no way to break through them.

Another Pokemon I've been playing around with is Choice Specs Golduck. It has decent speed in the metagame and with a Modest nature and Specs hits 475 SpA, which, coupled with STAB Hydro Pump, hurts a lot. It can 2HKO physically defensive Alomomola after SR and 2HKOs many common walls in the tier. It has good covering among its four moves, namely Focus Blast and Ice Beam to hit certain threats harder, as well as having Surf or a Hidden Power. Overall, I've found its Specs set to be a very powerful attacker in the meta, because almost nothing can switch into it safely. Defensively, it isn't a frail Pokemon and can come into many resistant moves, thanks to its excellent Water typing, and can survive neutral hits from walls easily. I therefore nominate Golduck for A tier. On a side note, I have been using it with my Swagger/Foul Play team, and paralysis makes Golduck a very, very dangerous threat because it doesn't have to worry about getting revenged or outsped.

EDIT: Forgot to mention Golduck's ability Swift Swim allows it to take on Rain teams as well, taking advantage of the Speed and STAB boost to wreak even more havoc than normal.
 

Punchshroom

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Specs Golduck is okay, but I feel it is outclassed by Simipour in most cases, who is marginally stronger, noticeably faster and doesn't need to mess about its IVs with Hidden Power. Simipour also has Torrent for a possible extra boost which Golduck can't boast. While it isn't Golduck's very best set, I feel SubCM or CM + 3 attacks is where Golduck's niche really lies, as it is bar none the best CMing Water type in NU (then again, the only other CM Water types are Alomomola, Relicanth and freakin' Corsola).

Modest Golduck also throws away Golduck's best advantage in outspeeding positive base 80s like Gardevoir and Braviary and neutral base 85s like Sawk and non-Scarf Pinsir. While Golduck can outspeed neutral base 80s, so can Timid Samurott and Ludicolo.
 

dcae

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I guess you have a point about Simipour, completely forgot about him. The only reason I run Modest is to 2HKO Alomomola, a specific threat to the team I was using him on. Otherwise I would run Timid. Regarding Simipour, however, I think the difference really that can be the selling point is Golduck's bulk, which is a lot greater than Simipour and therefore takes hits much better. Simipour cannot survive neutral hits well at all, and that is where I feel it is worse. Also, Golduck boasts Swift Swim instead of Torrent, which allows it to beat (correct me if im wrong) Ludicolo under Rain. However, you have an excellent point regarding the CM set, which I have yet to test, but seems very promising. I think the fact that it sports a great niche with CM and can be very effective in the role of bulky Specs user makes Golduck at least a B tier Pokemon, or as I believe, an A tier. Surely it does not deserve to rot among the C pokemon.
 
Golduck isn't THAT good. I mean simipour has higher base stats and it's bulk isn't that great. It has an average base 95 special attack and does not have enough speed to make up for it.
 
Well beedril just isnt good to begin with. It has a weakness to stealth rocks and has mediocre speed coupled with a decent attack. Its movepool is very shallow and has bad coverage. Many other things can easily outclass beedrill thats banded. Beedrill in general just isnt good for any moveset.
 
Pinsir has better stats, a more reliable ability (Moxie) and better moves if you want to use a Choice Banded physical attacker bug.

The only things that Beedrill has going for him over Pinsir as an attacker is U-Turn, the
ability to remove Poison Spikes and having poison as a type, but that last bit is situational.

I also agree about Liepard getting a promotion to either A or B rank. Prankster Swagger/Twave/Foul Play/Substitute isn't a joke.
 

Bluwing

icequeen
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I would like to vote Swanna for A rank, the reason for this is because Swanna is an extremely underrated threath in this meta, with unresisted dual STAB and a great speed tier while also having decent attacking stats, Swanna can easely run a SubRoost set due his good typing allows him to easely scare out opposing pokemon and get a sub up. Due to his amazing coverage in only two moves, and the ridicoulus power of Hurricane he can easely muscle trough unprepared teams all alone, pokemons that walls it are mainly specially defensive walls which can easely be fixed with pairing Swanna with a strong physical attacker like Sawk, Gurdurr or Zangoose. Swannas down side is his frailty and rock weakness (Which doesn't matter that much due to Roost) but the frailty is letting him easely get beaten by popular scarfers like Rotom and Sawk, but both of those threaths should watch out if Swanna is behind a sub. So my opinion is that Swanna has more than enough potential to be a huge threath, and needs nearly no support to work well, which in my eyes makes him A-tier.
 
Well beedril just isnt good to begin with. It has a weakness to stealth rocks and has mediocre speed coupled with a decent attack. Its movepool is very shallow and has bad coverage. Many other things can easily outclass beedrill thats banded. Beedrill in general just isnt good for any moveset.
While I agree that Beedrill is a pretty poor choice of a Pokemon outside of its one niche in Toxic Spikes, it does get pretty good coverage with X-Scissor, Poison Jab, and Drill Run, hitting most everything in the tier for neutral damage outside of Misdreavus, Drifblim, Haunter, Golbat, and Weezing. Beedrill also gets Pursuit and Payback, but Pursuit is a poor option as most of the things it could trap aren't scared of it. Payback is also a fairly poor option because it is pretty frail, and you want frailer offensive Pokemon to be faster for... well, obvious reasons.

Ultimately, if you're looking for a Bug-type Pokemon in NU, Pinsir is a much better choice than Beedrill, but its movepool isnt that bad.
 

Celever

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I have 2 proposals that are linked.
Personally I would think Linoone would be C rank, as it needs memento and possibly screens to bring out its true potential.
Then we have Clamperl, the would-be C rank if Linoone was not B. Clamperl and linoone are practically the same thing, one physical and one special, and so either they should both be B or C, so I am nominating Linoone moved down to C and Clamperl added to C.
 
Clamperl lacks priority, so anything with priority or Prankster (or just faster than 358 speed) can shut it down or neuter it pretty quickly. Linoone is a bit of a gimmick, but Extremespeed alone makes it a fairly effective one.

Between Gorebyss, Samurott and Simipour, Clamperl just struggles to find a niche especially considering it's highly predictable. It hits hard, but so does Pikachu, who's stuck in D rank and at least has Lightningrod and Encore for some attempts at self-setup.
 

Punchshroom

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I've no idea why you've made this comparison: the only similarity they have is that they make themselves more fragile with their set up move (which isn't a good trait). The main difference is that Clamperl is still easily outsped by Scarfers (plus things with 120 base speed or greater) and is greatly threatened by priority due to weakene defenses (obviously it can't hold White Herb to fix this because it needs DeapSeaTooth). Linoone is all but untouched by priority and Scarfers thanks to its +2 priority Extreemepspeed.

While Clamperl is more difficult to wall, Linoone is much harder to outpace, not to mention it is far easier to beat Clamperl than Linoone. While both need support to set up safely, Linoone usually reaps the better reward, as it can rip apart teams if physical walls are so much as scratched beforehand; Clamperl still has to worry about Scarfers, priority, naturally fast opponents and special walls to boot. So no, Clamperl doesn't reach C-Rank not because Linoone sweeps better, it would not have been C-Rank regardless because of its flaws that it cannot overcome without much support.

Dammit, Axa ninja'd me :P
 
Clamperl also doesn't outspeed ANY revenge killer at +2, just to put that out. It's a good stall breaker once stuff like Regice/Lickilicky are weakened, but it usually has a hard time setting up. And if it does reach +2, almost anything equipped with a Choice Scarf can kill it.
It can damage teams though if it has team support such as Trick Room or paralysis, so I guess it's usable in NU.

I don't know whether Linoone's bad enough to be C-Rank. It has a hard time to setup, but when it does find an opportunity to do so, it plows teams with E-Speed and coverage moves. Im fine with it in either B or C.
 

Celever

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Clamperl doesn't even need to set up since with the deepseatooth it has an incredible amount of power anyway.
Linoone buts itself in a much frailer position, since either it heals up with sitrus berry, in which case you would need even more support than screens and memento with rocks as well, or to be frail but hold the muscle band or silk scarf to get in those narrow OHKOs. Both need team support and have notable flaws, and are practically the meaning of C rank.
I compared them since they both require the same team support and should always run a set up move.
 

watashi

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the difference between linoone and clamperl is that the former is an unique sweeper that has priority over nearly everything in the tier and still manages to hit hard. thanks to extremespeed, it can afford to run bulk, meaning it can actually set up on basically every defensive pokemon even without screens. nothing else in the tier has access to extremespeed and belly drum so there is no other pokemon that outclasses linoone. clamperl on the other hand has to compete with other shell smashers, including gorebyss which can run life orb and hydro pump to make up for the power difference that deepseatooth brings. clamperl cannot invest in bulk because it needs speed investment to be able to outrun relatively slow pokemon such as ludicolo or samurott. most revenge killers can be beaten by linoone, but clamperl just folds to them. although linoone is stopped cold by some walls, they can all be easily trapped and killed by gothorita, while something like rotom-s is much harder to get rid of by will. these two pokemon are not similar and probably shouldn't be compared at all, but i do believe that linoone has much more merits than clamperl and requires less set-up to use effectively.
 
I would like to nominate kingler for C-Rank. Kingler has one of the highest attacks in the metagame, a boosting move in swords dance and decent speed which can be increased by agility. Kingler can also run A CB set which has great power. While many say that he is outclassed by samorwott because of aqua jet, they both have similar stats and movepools and Aqua jet can be weak, so niether really outclasses each other. Kingler deserves to be C-Rank IMO.
 
I would like to nominate kingler for C-Rank. Kingler has one of the highest attacs in the metagame, a boosting move in swords dance and decent speed which can be increased by agility. Kingler can also run A CB set which has great power. While many say that he is outclassed by samorwott because of aqua jet, they both have similar stats and movepools and Aqua jet can be weak, so niether really outclasses each other. Kingler deserves to be C-Rank IMO.
Samurott has a much better movepool than Kingler: not only does he have access to useful support moves like Taunt and Encore (I think?), he can also go mixed or purely special, thanks to a good Sp.Atk stat and a decent movepool including Hydro Pump, Ice Beam and Grass Knot. D, or even E rank is fair for Kingler.
 

Shuckleking87

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Well first off, I don't know why people are still proposing changes to this as there is noone actually updating this data.
That being said, I wouldn't mind moving kingler up to C rank. Yes, for the most part he is outclassed by samurott yet samurott is one of the best and diverse pokemon in the tier. Kingler also doesn't have good bulk at all. Even though Kingler has 115 base defense, its 55 HP means it will barely take physical hits better than Samurott, while having a very lower special defense. What it has going for it, however, is its initial raw attacking power that can brought up even higher with swords dance. Even though it is very frail, not many pokes will be living +2 attacks, especially because kingler has 75 base speed, which outspeeds ludicolo, seismetoad, luxray, and of course, samurott. The ability to outspeed and either kill with x-scissor or a +2 return alone justifies its use. It can be said, however, that Kingler is very predictable. What about having ice beam on it? Coming off neutral nature with no investment, sheer force and life orb, an ice beam from Kingler does about 60% of a timid 252SpA Samurott with life orb, and kingler's enhanced speed (if a +speed nature is used) could potentially get 2 ice beams off. Kingler can 2hko tangela and 2hko offensive vileplune, while having a 21% chance to kill defensive vileplume. Not exactly great, but I don't see why running an Ice beam/ crabhammer/return/ swords dance or agility set cannot work.
A better comparison for Kingler would be between floatzel and basculin. Both have aqua jet and higher speed, but less bulk and no boosting move. Kingler is definitely not an E poke, but I agree that a lower C rank could be justifiable for Kingler
 
I find it pretty saddening that Bronzor is nowhere on this list. I've used it in both stall and bulky offense, and it works really well even though it's crazy how much it makes you lose momentum. While it has horrible attacking stats, Calm Mind and Eviolite let it become a defensive monster, letting it shrug of neutral and some super-effective moves with ease. The only problem is that it can only use one attacking move (Flash Cannon / Psychic | Toxic | Rest | Calm Mind). It can win PP stalls with ease, and with many boosts under it's belt, it can Rest to fully recover it's health. I liked using it in Stall with Toxic Spikes, so it can use Flash Cannon over Toxic. Bronzor for C-Rank.
 
Now for some to-be-added D-tier mons:
- Machoke: His fully accurate DynamicPunch is invaluable, and it's quite bulky with eviolite. Bulkier than Golurk.
- Eelektrik: An eviolite mon with no weaknesses. Interesting... His movepool is sadly very crappy, but a RestTalk set with Thunder Wave and Super Fang is somewhat decent.
- Dodrio: While being hard walled by Rock/Steels, it still packs a punch with Choice Band or Life Orb (comparing to Swellow, it hits harders with these items equiped, and comparing to Braviary, it's faster).
- Octillery: Suction Cups... I know poor speed kills it mostly, but hey, isn't Bibarrel also D-tiered just because of his abilities?
- Sudowoodo: I know he is mostly outclassed since his introduction, but he still has workable physical Stats and movepool, and Study. An outstanding feature is Wood Hammer, that enables him to hit waters harder.
- Fearow: This is Dodrio/Swellow that trades power for the ability to touch Rock/Steels (that don't hold a balloon). Comparing to Braviary, it's way weaker, but it's faster and doesn't sacrifice power when hurting Rocks/Steels.
 

WhiteDMist

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I won't argue with Dodrio, Octillery, Sudowoodo and Fearow being D-rank though you could put more effort into explaining the reasons. Dodrio not only has a faster Choice Band set than Braviary, but it has a very interesting Stallbreaker set as well. Sudowoodo ONLY has Wood Hammer to differentiate it from other Rock-types (it can't really use most of its other options very well due to a low base 30 Speed). Fearow's only benefit is Drill Run, which is rather weak and can only OHKO Probopass after Rocks. Octillery is also a good Trick Room and Baton Pass recipient. Machoke is a bit iffy, but DynamicPunch (and possibly Encore) is the only reason to use it over Gurdurr; this makes it harder to justify among NU players. As for Eelektrik, I would think the answer among most players would be no. There's no point in adding inferior Pokemon to the list just for the sake of adding it, especially since RestTalk isn't that impressive and can be done better by Eelektross who has Leftovers and a lot more power.
 
Can someone please take this over? I hate to see it die, but i love dota.

Also agreeing with Octillery, Sudowoodo, and Dodrio for D rank.
 
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