NU Viability Ranking

[Punchshroom]

Magmar doesn't get Shadow Ball or Thunderbolt. It does get Psychic and Thunderpunch though.

Since the departure of Amoonguss, Magmar's Vital Spirit really isn't that good anymore. Most Grass-types we see nowadays don't even have Sleep Powder, which reduces Magmar's utility. Offensive Magmar face competition with the very notably faster Simisear who has Nasty Plot and Blaze to compensate for the miniscule power drop, whereas bulky sets with Eviolite are hampered greatly by their lack of recovery and SR weakness. I think it's fine in C.

Yeah Regirock seems to have lost its valor, most notably due to not taking Volt Switches. A Rank from me too.

 

[jake]

I updated the OP. In other news with the Pokemon sitting at the top of the viability ranks, I have three additional changes I want to suggest.

1) Ludicolo down to A.

Ludicolo has fallen in usefulness. The metagame now strongly favors fast, powerful hitters, and Ludicolo simply doesn't have as many opportunities to set up. Simple little changes like Custap Berry's release prevents Ludicolo from being able to use Golem as set-up bait, and many smaller changes like Musharna often carrying Thunder Wave makes life more difficult for Ludicolo. Kangaskhan's massive rise in usefulness also contributes to Ludicolo's downfall, since it can't really sweep without being punished by Fake Out + Sucker Punch (the former which stalls out its rain too, making it that much harder to actually sweep). People have even started running bulky Samurott sets to help deal with the faster threats, and I'm pretty sure FLCL has used a spread that guarantees that Samu lives a Modest LO Giga Drain and OHKOes in return with Megahorn.

In summary, Ludicolo just doesn't have the speed or bulk necessary to keep up with this Normal-heavy metagame right now IMO. Of course, it's still very good, but it's not good enough to merit S-rank right now.

2) Kangaskhan to S.

Kangaskhan is fucking phenomenal right now. I used it in like the last five SPL matches I played, and it was useful or the MVP in every single one. Kangaskhan has literally no drawbacks for being a fast priority platform that still hits impressively hard and has excellent coverage. Kangaskhan manhandles offense barring a very select number of Pokemon (Regirock, Carracosta, etc) and even threatens to do stuff like 2HKO Musharna given a bit of prior damage. Kangaskhan owns or has a very solid chance to beat a majority of Pokemon in S, A, and B ranks right now, and that's just with its standard set. Kanga also has a pretty solid movepool, meaning it can swap out Sucker Punch or something for Toxic, etc.

I don't think you're being honest if you can say that Kangaskhan isn't one of the best Pokemon in the metagame right now. There aren't any downsides whatsoever to slapping Kanga into an offensive team, as long as you have a means for breaking down physical walls.

3) Haunter to S.

This one might be a little bit harder for me to push through, but Haunter has also been consistently one of the best Pokemon in NU as of late. With a great Speed tier, impressive coverage in its STAB moves (and HP Ground to give it perfect coverage), Destiny Bond to ensure at least one kill, and a wide variety of other moves at its disposal, Haunter is one of the best offensive Pokemon in the tier right now. Primarily, Haunter's usefulness comes from having very good coverage and power to threaten slower offensive teams, and Destiny Bond to lure things like Regice or Metang or Skuntank and quickly and easily remove the opponent's counter to Haunter's teammates. Haunter should often be paired with stuff like Kadabra or Gardevoir because of how easily it can lure and beat these. It's also a solid Scarf user, outspeeding most other common Scarfers and having both Trick and Destiny Bond to screw over defensive and offensive teams alike. Other possible sets include: Wisp, Hypnosis, SubSplit, SubDisable (still pretty mediocre right now tbh), Specs...


There are a few other Pokemon sitting in S that I kind myself leaning against but not strongly enough to actually propose their removal right now (Braviary, Zangoose). A tier looks pretty solid, but B has a whole bunch of wackadoos that probably belong mostly in C (with a few exceptions that might even be A).

 

[skylight]

I agree entirely with Kanga. Almost all of my losses lately I put blame to Kanga and the fact that there was nothing really in my team to "stop it". Fake Out in particular is extremely useful as priority, more so than the other priority in the tier due to being able to outright stop any damage being received in turn, which is something that Quick Attack, Mach Punch etc can't guarantee. Scrappy also is especially useful because allows it to get past ghosts without relying on prediction as much as the other normal types, which is something that also makes it stand out, too.

 

[Aasgier]

With Ludicolo I agree if it goes down to A-rank. Ludicolo, while dangerous if you have nothing to check it, is not that good. The omnipresent (Trace) Gardevoir does not make life for Ludicolo easier either, as it traces Swift Swim and if it beats Ludicolo, proceeds to punish you for your ignorance and starts a sweep.

Kangaskhan is also very good. Fake Out, Scrappy, insane coverage with physical attacks (Elemental Punches, Sucker Punch, Drain Punch and whatnot).
It has some problems with Gurdurr and Misdreavus (despite Scrappy) though. Is it worth S-Rank? A question mark, but I certainly don't oppose it.

Edit: Just found out Kanga has absolutely zero set-up moves bar Substitute and the rather bad Work Up (always thought it had Bulk Up access). That sucks. Badly. Then I suggest it stays where it is.

With Haunter, I have a serious issue with it being S-Rank because it is so frail that even Zangoose looks like a bulky fudge. It just can't switch into... about anything.

 

[skylight]

With Haunter, I have a serious issue with it being S-Rank because it is so frail that even Zangoose looks like a bulky fudge. It just can't switch into... about anything.

Sawk can't switch into a lot of A/S safely, either, without being 2HKOd and outsped, or somehow at a disadvantage, but yet it's still S. Haunter is good because if you predict right you get a big advantage over the opponent - especially when normal types are -really- good, or you can switch in after something dies and make the opponent really consider what to do. Given that there's so many different things it can run, and the fact that it's versatile and can give your team an advantage is what makes it great, despite being frail.

 

[Aasgier]

A few Normals, like Kangaskhan, have Scrappy.
Also, what the hell does 2HKO Haunter bar things Haunter resists or weak attacks on walls?
Haunter does gets OHKO'd by every attacking Pokémon whenever it does not resist the attack.

And yes, Sawk is in a similar boat, but it still has at least twice as much bulk as Haunter and at least does not get OHKO'd by random coverage moves left and right.

 

[skylight]

Not all of them run Scrappy though, but Sawk and Zangoose in particular can be at a huge disadvantage if they use the wrong move - and both Pokemon -can- pose a threat to teams, so the fact that it can do that makes it stand out as far as switching in goes.

Also, it can outspeed a whole lot of stuff and either use Destiny Bond, Trick or outright attack (if they're not locked into anything) - or do something else completely different. Even on things like Braviary with Bulk Up it can just Disable Brave Bird and go for the kill. On Skunk it can become a mind game even if it isn't subdisable and rather attacking with Destiny Bond, which can help the Psychic-types live longer. It's not the greatest at switching in, sure, but after something dies then that's where it really shines (unless it switches into the above things with good prediction). It also has the joint 7th highest Special Attack which means it can actually do a lot of damage to what it is put up against.

Plus,

Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the NU metagame.

^ It is.

These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well.

^ Ya.

Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted.

^ Doesn't necessarily have to be Pokemon that can switch in, and once it's in after something died or you predicted the opponent's move, then yeah chances are you're going to do really well.

Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

^ Flaw being it can't switch in to a lot until something dies, but the positive is that it can do so much effectively, and it's hard to predict what Haunter is going to do, while almost all of what it can do does the job it needs to basically.

 

[Punchshroom]

1) Ludicolo down to A.

Ludicolo has fallen in usefulness. The metagame now strongly favors fast, powerful hitters, and Ludicolo simply doesn't have as many opportunities to set up. Simple little changes like Custap Berry's release prevents Ludicolo from being able to use Golem as set-up bait, and many smaller changes like Musharna often carrying Thunder Wave makes life more difficult for Ludicolo. Kangaskhan's massive rise in usefulness also contributes to Ludicolo's downfall, since it can't really sweep without being punished by Fake Out + Sucker Punch (the former which stalls out its rain too, making it that much harder to actually sweep). People have even started running bulky Samurott sets to help deal with the faster threats, and I'm pretty sure FLCL has used a spread that guarantees that Samu lives a Modest LO Giga Drain and OHKOes in return with Megahorn.

In summary, Ludicolo just doesn't have the speed or bulk necessary to keep up with this Normal-heavy metagame right now IMO. Of course, it's still very good, but it's not good enough to merit S-rank right now.

I dunno about you, packing what is essentially the special variant of Gear Shift (albeit only boosting Water attacks for 5 turns) still makes Ludicolo a relevant threat that teams should prepare for to avoid getting bowled over. That said, it is getting increasingly difficult for Ludicolo to safely get that Rain Dance up, nor can it beat dedicated special walls like Regice and Lickilicky, but Ludicolo is still something to consider when teambuilding, as those Rain boosted Surfs/Hydro Pumps with Grass/Ice coverage can be incredibly difficult to stall out the rain against.

2) Kangaskhan to S.

Kangaskhan is fucking phenomenal right now. I used it in like the last five SPL matches I played, and it was useful or the MVP in every single one. Kangaskhan has literally no drawbacks for being a fast priority platform that still hits impressively hard and has excellent coverage. Kangaskhan manhandles offense barring a very select number of Pokemon (Regirock, Carracosta, etc) and even threatens to do stuff like 2HKO Musharna given a bit of prior damage. Kangaskhan owns or has a very solid chance to beat a majority of Pokemon in S, A, and B ranks right now, and that's just with its standard set. Kanga also has a pretty solid movepool, meaning it can swap out Sucker Punch or something for Toxic, etc.

I don't think you're being honest if you can say that Kangaskhan isn't one of the best Pokemon in the metagame right now. There aren't any downsides whatsoever to slapping Kanga into an offensive team, as long as you have a means for breaking down physical walls.

This on the other hand I'm not so sure. Kangaskhan is not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of "top NU threats" (though that may merely be a sign for Kanga to take advantage of). Kanga has well rounded stats and can run a good variety of sets, but are they really all that? I've used Kangaskhan myself and I've found some notable flaws with each one.

Priority abuse, the main set, aims to wear down faster sweepers and break down slower ones. The problem: it doesn't do quite a stellar job at both. The coveted Fake Out-Sucker Punch combo easily takes a toll on Kanga herself if running Life Orb; if she's running Silk Scarf instead for better survivability, suddenly Kangaskhan loses a notable amount of power, such as missing the OHKO on Bastiodon with Earthquake, or not 2HKOing Musharna (as you so claimed) after SR. Life Orb isn't priority-friendly, whereas Silk Scarf isn't power-friendly: hell, I even find myself struggling to 2HKO Ludicolo with Fake Out + Sucker Punch, the latter which can be exploited.

Choice Band sets now have the power to break through most bulky pokes and has more freedom in spamming Normal moves thanks to Scrappy, but it sacrifices strong reliable priority as a result of being Choice-locked, taking away one of Kanga's trademark offensive traits.

Substitute sets are interesting, as they allow Kangaskhan to bypass the bulky pokemon it has trouble getting through before. From there, SubPunch or SubToxic sets can work their magic. But oh boy, if you thought the Silk Scarf set can be lacking in power, this set merely scratches the same bulky pokemon it is trying to wall. SubPunch sets will not be able to break through most of the pokemon it can set up its Substitute on, while SubToxic sets can run into coverage issues and pokemon that do not mind Toxic (Heal Bell Misdreavus and Vileplume).

Yes, Kangaskhan is good, but not S-Rank dominant. She can't dish out the same kind of punishment for guessing one of her numerous sets incorrectly like Samurott does due to being purely physical, nor can she break through bulky pokemon like every single other S-Rank poke can due to her inability to boost or hit insanely hard off the bat. I'd probably settle for her in A-Rank, but let's hear more discussion on this.

3) Haunter to S.

This one might be a little bit harder for me to push through, but Haunter has also been consistently one of the best Pokemon in NU as of late. With a great Speed tier, impressive coverage in its STAB moves (and HP Ground to give it perfect coverage), Destiny Bond to ensure at least one kill, and a wide variety of other moves at its disposal, Haunter is one of the best offensive Pokemon in the tier right now. Primarily, Haunter's usefulness comes from having very good coverage and power to threaten slower offensive teams, and Destiny Bond to lure things like Regice or Metang or Skuntank and quickly and easily remove the opponent's counter to Haunter's teammates. Haunter should often be paired with stuff like Kadabra or Gardevoir because of how easily it can lure and beat these. It's also a solid Scarf user, outspeeding most other common Scarfers and having both Trick and Destiny Bond to screw over defensive and offensive teams alike. Other possible sets include: Wisp, Hypnosis, SubSplit, SubDisable (still pretty mediocre right now tbh), Specs...

Haunter is a pretty threatening force alright. Unlike Kanga before it, it can cause headaches for defensive teams due to its numerous disruptive options mentioned above. It is incredibly frail, but has 3 immunities and a couple of handy resistances to Grass (allowing it to halt Sawsbuck if at full health) and Bug that can make up for it, or if worst comes to worst, utilize Destiny Bond to KO an opponent you otherwise couldn't have.

The cons of Haunter is that its fraility leaves it vulnerable to almost every Scarfer or priority that hits it neutrally. It also faces a certain degree of competition with Kadabra, who is faster, stronger, and can be equally disruptive with Encore and Magic Guard. However, Haunter has a easier time bringing down Skuntank than Kadabra, KOing with Destiny Bond to allow for Psychic teammates to sweep unhindered. Mixed between S and A-Rank, though I feel its tremendous fraility leans it towards A.

There are a few other Pokemon sitting in S that I kind myself leaning against but not strongly enough to actually propose their removal right now (Braviary, Zangoose). A tier looks pretty solid, but B has a whole bunch of wackadoos that probably belong mostly in C (with a few exceptions that might even be A).

I've seen people give praise to Seismitoad, but haven't seen him being proposed for a higher ranking. Perhaps he could be a viable A-Rank canditate?

 

[Celever]

I am also voting haunter up to S, perfect coverage and immense speed, especially for NU, puts it as a top-tier threat in this meta-game. The frailty can even help you in situations if a threat to your team is out on the field, you can throw in a quick destiny bond in and just remove that threat from the battle.

To combat Aasgier though: Yes, a few normals have scrappy. But the rest of those normals don't have scrappy, so Haunter can switch into those. So what if Kangaskhan, Stoutland and Miltank can hit haunter? That's two normal types in a tier with a large amount of viable ones!
252Atk Scrappy Miltank (Neutral) Body Slam vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Haunter (Neutral): 80% - 95% (187 - 222 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Guts Gurdurr (Neutral) Payback vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Haunter (Neutral): 76% - 90% (178 - 210 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Those are just two I can think of.

Edit: ANd that's what I get for going AFK for like 15 minutes, 2 ninjas

Edit 2: I forgot about something that has been bugging me for a while now.

Weezing should be at least B, I would say high B if we were doing that in NU, and I have absolutely no clue whatsoever at why weezing is C rank.

"Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame Physical wall with burn, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective.I suppose not being able to scoop up t-spikes, as well as having no reliable recovery to wall as effectively Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. I've never found myself supporting weezing, more weezing supporting others! C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon." I suppose as a physical wall it does face competition.

Basically Weezing is a one-weakness wall (dat alliteration!) that can cripple many physical sweepers with its very impressive bulk and then burn the non-guts ones with a burn. This pokemon can really remove many incredibly threatening pokemon from a fight, and with it's only weakness being psychic types and earthquake off of mold breaker sawk, it has great defensive typing and ability as well! The flaws stopping it from being A rank, its most reliable recovery being pain split and one of the niches of a poison type being it can sweep up toxic spikes is removed thanks to levitate. However, it is the only poison type or physical wall (iirc) capable of burning, giving it a massively impressive niche that really helps in so many fights.

Edit 3: Sky shooting down her own proposition lol. Oh well, I'll edit that out then.

 

[skylight]

Another obvious trait that ahunter has is spin blocking, and while foresight is used on wartortle commonly now, and:
252SpAtk Torrent Wartortle (Neutral) Scald vs 4HP/0SpDef Levitate Haunter (Neutral): 58% - 68% (135 - 160 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Making another easy switch-in.

Haunter isn't really the best spinblocking, and should be mostly used for how great it is offensively. Even so, to even survive stuff you'd need Eviolite and while Eviolite can be used at times for things, using Haunter's spot on your team as specifically based for spinblocking is less to the point of what it's good at. Even if you did need a spinblocker it's better to use something that can actually survive a few hits, and isn't losing out on other things it could be good at. Also if it did have Eviolite it does even less in return to all three of the main spinners, so I'm calcing with LO. Also, the switching in is with prediction in mind, too.

0 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haunter: 121-144 (52.15 - 62.06%) -- 98.05% chance to 2HKO

Haunter can't OHKO back, so it can't switch in.

252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 327-385 (140.94 - 165.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Haunter can't even switch in.

252 SpA Life Orb Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Wartortle: 125-148 (38.81 - 45.96%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Haunter can't really do much to it in return, and just loses HP while Wartortle attacks in return.

I know that's not really the discussion but I just wanted to add that in that Haunter being a spinblocker isn't really a big selling point when it's primary focus is how good it is offensively, which is why it should be S, not the fact that it can survive a Wartortle's Scald (also when it can't really take two hits without dying from the other main spinners in the tier then that doesn't really make it good at spinblocking).

 

[tennisace]

Weezing should be at least B, I would say high B if we were doing that in NU, and I have absolutely no clue whatsoever at why weezing is C rank.

"Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame Physical wall with burn, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective.I suppose not being able to scoop up t-spikes, as well as having no reliable recovery to wall as effectively Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. I've never found myself supporting weezing, more weezing supporting others! C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon." I suppose as a physical wall it does face competition.

Basically Weezing is a one-weakness wall (dat alliteration!) that can cripple many physical sweepers with its very impressive bulk and then burn the non-guts ones with a burn. This pokemon can really remove many incredibly threatening pokemon from a fight, and with it's only weakness being psychic types and earthquake off of mold breaker sawk, it has great defensive typing and ability as well! The flaws stopping it from being A rank, its most reliable recovery being pain split and one of the niches of a poison type being it can sweep up toxic spikes is removed thanks to levitate. However, it is the only poison type or physical wall (iirc) capable of burning, giving it a massively impressive niche that really helps in so many fights.

Here's why it's C:

The metagame is dominated by Psychic-types, all of which handily beat Weezing. In addition, it is unable to effectively wall two of the biggest Physical attackers in the tier (Mold Breaker Sawk and Zangoose) for various reasons. Sure, it's got nice Physical defense, and some cool perks. But when it comes right down to it, if I want a full stop to Physical attackers, I go with Alomomola. If I want to burn something, I go with Haunter, Rotom-A, Gardevoir, etc etc etc. I'm not saying it's a bad Pokemon, but it's pretty niche (it's best set right now is the suicide Memento set).

This brings up another good point: we should stop trying to push up so many niche Pokemon into A/B. I see a ton of posts that say "OMG POKEMON X IS SO GREAT IT DOES REALLY GREAT ON MY TEAM THAT I MADE AND IT SHOULD BE A OR AT LEAST B". That isn't how viability rankings should work. There are naturally going to be a lot of C-ranked Pokemon, since in NU especially there are a lot of Pokemon that do work on the right team in the right setting, but aren't good enough to just throw on a team and instantly make it better. As a specific example, throwing Weezing on a team because you're weak to Sawk isn't a good plan, since sometimes you'll lose to a predicted Earthquake. Throwing Alomomola on your team, however, will stop all but the rare Toxic Sawk, and basically every other physical attacker bar Scraggy to boot. Alomomola can instantly make a team better than it was before: it's an A rank Pokemon. Weezing is good, but it doesn't instantly make your team better than it was before: it's a C rank Pokemon. Note: I can replace Weezing / Alomomola with a lot of examples, such as: Solrock / Golem, Ursaring / Zangoose, Golduck / Samurott, etc.

 

[sickweare]

I agree entirely with Kanga to S. Her Fake Out + Sucker Punch set is extremely lethal, and despite being tailor made to bring down sweepers, it is an efficient cleaner as well. Plus, Double Edge hurts like a bitch on anything that things it can wall it, but generally it doesn't have much trouble with walls if you pack the right teammates. It has so many perks for it, and there's so little risk in putting her on your team, with such high reward. She's just really good.

 

[watashi]

i disagree with haunter being s-rank. it has a lot of cool options, but i think its frailty is its biggest downfall. there is priority everywhere in this metagame and every team carries a scarfer, so it's hard for haunter to net more than one kill without being forced out. it doesn't get many opportunities to switch back in either. its power is also lacking a bit since it doesn't get many high powered moves; often i will find myself trying to ohko a samurott or musharna, only to miss out and get killed in return. if you do a simple calculation here you'll find that anything with decent bulk can survive haunter's attacks, and will most likely ohko it back due to its horrible bulk. most of the time you're only trading kills by destiny bonding or crippling something with will-o-wisp. it is a great lure, but i don't think that is enough to boost it from a-rank to s-rank; you could also lure things with pokemon such as miracle eye kadabra or gardevoir just as easily.

 

[Hot N Cold]

i think that Seismitoad deserved A-Rank.

Like user of Stealth Rock has a lot of advantages than the big part of the rest of users beating the common setters on the NU tier, can put a lot of pressure, things like Regirock / Piloswine / Probopass / Armaldo / Golurk / Bastiodon / actually Golem since a 30% to burn and broke Sturdy or just Seismitoad can run Protect to stop Custap Berry + Boom, this things just fail against Seismitoad.
Actually the only setters that can beat Seismitoad in a good matchup advantage are Cradily and Torterra, and both are a few used.

Also Seismitoad isnt only a good mon to support the rest of the team, is just great like sweeper annoying if is running Substitute because get a Sub in a lot of mons while keep a good offense-defense presence or very threatening if Seismitoad run RD + 3 atk while supporting the rest of the team. Finally, have a nice type that can help against volt spam choices like Rotom-S and can help against threats like Carracosta or Skuntank.

 

[TLCJR4LIFE]

I agree entirely with Kanga. Almost all of my losses lately I put blame to Kanga and the fact that there was nothing really in my team to "stop it". Fake Out in particular is extremely useful as priority, more so than the other priority in the tier due to being able to outright stop any damage being received in turn, which is something that Quick Attack, Mach Punch etc can't guarantee. Scrappy also is especially useful because allows it to get past ghosts without relying on prediction as much as the other normal types, which is something that also makes it stand out, too.

Khan is great at what it does, it was one of the few A rank mons I spammed on my teams because of its solid speed and priority abuse. I even featured it on the team for my one NUPL match, so it's a favorite of mine, but it is pretty dreadful against semi-stall and bulky offense. Granted the metagame favors offense, but Kanga qualifies as death fodder with LO slowly killing it while your opponent pivots to Musharna or a rock type(drain punch doesn't too enough).

I'd be reluctant to nominate it to S for that reason.


As far as Seismitoad goes, it's an absolute problem right now and should see more use. The excellent thing with toad is its surprising versatility...an LO variant while you were expecting SR Tank can be extremely difficult to deal with, and it deals with other SR setters(including Golurk) beautifully. Unlike Carracosta it isn't brutally slow and weak to fighting either which gives the rock and grounds it's supposed to deal with a chance at it. Lastly, it has a nice immunity to Volt Switch and and excellent ability. Seismitoad for A rank for sure, and IMO its the biggest, best sleeper in NU right now.


Also again Liepard...illegal Liepard for B or A. C is a bit ridiculous given how much of a game breaker it is.

 

[jake]

Kangaskhan is also very good. Fake Out, Scrappy, insane coverage with physical attacks (Elemental Punches, Sucker Punch, Drain Punch and whatnot).
It has some problems with Gurdurr and Misdreavus (despite Scrappy) though. Is it worth S-Rank? A question mark, but I certainly don't oppose it.

Edit: Just found out Kanga has absolutely zero set-up moves bar Substitute and the rather bad Work Up (always thought it had Bulk Up access). That sucks. Badly. Then I suggest it stays where it is.

Gurdurr is poor in this metagame, and Kanga has the ability to 2HKO Misdreavus after SR (and a really good shot to do it if it even has just a bit of prior damage). It does ~40% on average to both of them, meaning neither is a really reliable answer. Why does it need set-up moves to be successful? I've found nearly all of my teams lately have required 0 Pokemon with set-up moves, and the heavily offensive nature of this meta kind of pushes away from that. Not that set-up moves are bad, but it doesn't need to set up to be successful (in fact, most of the S-rank Pokemon don't need to!).

I dunno about you, packing what is essentially the special variant of Gear Shift (albeit only boosting Water attacks for 5 turns) still makes Ludicolo a relevant threat that teams should prepare for to avoid getting bowled over. That said, it is getting increasingly difficult for Ludicolo to safely get that Rain Dance up, nor can it beat dedicated special walls like Regice and Lickilicky, but Ludicolo is still something to consider when teambuilding, as those Rain boosted Surfs/Hydro Pumps with Grass/Ice coverage can be incredibly difficult to stall out the rain against.

Yeah. That fits the A-Rank description pretty well, don't you think?

Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the NU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.​

long bit about kanga

Life Orb is mediocre for the reasons you noted. Silk Scarf is significantly better. I also claimed it can 2HKO Mushy after a bit of prior damage I believe (if I said otherwise then apologies :P) - things like not OHKOing Bastiodon isn't incredibly important, since it's not like Bastiodon is doing anything important in return (plus it's not going to be OHKOed anyway thanks to Sturdy). Sucker Punch isn't exploited by Ludicolo because it's stalling its own rain if it tries to PP stall your Sucker Punch, and when the rain ends then you can just KO with Double-Edge.

I don't think the inability to break all bulky Pokemon should deny it S-Rank when it throttles literally every single common offensive Pokemon right now.

haunter sux move it to a

I'm going to address these together: I don't believe too much that Haunter's frailty really pulls it down all that much, when in actuality its frailty is kind of a draw. If it weren't so frail, you wouldn't be able to easily get KOes via Destiny Bond. You shouldn't -have- to be relying on its resistances if you're using it. You don't -need- it to be taking unnecessary hits aside from checking stuff like Sawsbuck, and if you're in a position like then either you played poorly in the game or you're using Haunter when another Pokemon would be ideal for what you're looking for.

If you're really upset about its bulk, you can use Eviolite if you want to. Of course you're still not taking super effective or very strong neutral hits well, but suddenly you have the ability to take hits as well as Zangoose and still have plenty of utility. For example,

252 SpA Rotom-S Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Haunter: 144-171 (62.06 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Haunter: 186-220 (80.17 - 94.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Horn Leech vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Haunter: 166-196 (71.55 - 84.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Haunter: 164-193 (70.68 - 83.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Alomomola Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Haunter: 85-102 (36.63 - 43.96%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Of course, you don't have the sheer power of Zangoose, but you have a significant amount of utility and you can strategically trade Haunter for a Pokemon that beats the rest of your teammates if you play it well.

Seismitoad to A

Mhm, Seis has been awesome in my experience. I'd fully support this change.

 

[Ashley11]

I agree with Seismitoad for A rank. It packs some very nice resistances and immunitys, allowing it to easily switch in. Offensive or Defensive, it does its job well. It can beat walls with Sub/Toxic, and can pack a powerful Hydro Pump. Its Dual STAB is a pretty nice one as well. It is good against rocks and its only bad flaw is its 4x weakness to Grass, which can easily be fixed with teamates.

 

[Aasgier]

Gurdurr is poor in this metagame, and Kanga has the ability to 2HKO Misdreavus after SR (and a really good shot to do it if it even has just a bit of prior damage). It does ~40% on average to both of them, meaning neither is a really reliable answer. Why does it need set-up moves to be successful? I've found nearly all of my teams lately have required 0 Pokemon with set-up moves, and the heavily offensive nature of this meta kind of pushes away from that. Not that set-up moves are bad, but it doesn't need to set up to be successful (in fact, most of the S-rank Pokemon don't need to!).

True. But I was already undecided, and the lack of Bulk Up just pushed me to A-rank. A-rank is pretty fine. You gave the definition for A-rank yourself when talking about Ludicolo:

Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the NU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

I think this goes for Kangaskhan as well. It is pretty damn good, but you can't just slap it on any team and expect it to improve and still has a bit of a lack in power. A variety of things just cockblock it, like Metang, as well as the aforemented Gurdurr (which Drain Punches and recovers quite a bit of health next turn and can switch into Fake Out as well). Missy can survive two hits and Will-O-Wisp you, leaving you out for the entire game, but indeed is not a reliable check if you use Sawk alongside Kanga.

I'm going to address these together: I don't believe too much that Haunter's frailty really pulls it down all that much, when in actuality its frailty is kind of a draw. If it weren't so frail, you wouldn't be able to easily get KOes via Destiny Bond. You shouldn't -have- to be relying on its resistances if you're using it. You don't -need- it to be taking unnecessary hits aside from checking stuff like Sawsbuck, and if you're in a position like then either you played poorly in the game or you're using Haunter when another Pokemon would be ideal for what you're looking for.

But with or without Eviolite, Haunter can't switch into coverage moves. Exception is Sawsbuck, Gurdurr, and Leafeon I guess, but even then both 2HKO you (though you can Disable those coverage moves, I guess).
Even then, you can't switch into anything else. Even Leavanny kills you if you switch into a Shadow Claw.

I do agree a well-played Haunter is very dangerous, but since Haunter absolutely can't switch in, at some points using Haunter feels like being down a Pokémon, especially if you use more frail Pokémon on that team already, like Sawsbuck. I had that feeling with Kadabra (I never used Haunter), and Haunter is even frailer... no thanks. I mean, frailty is the reason Pikachu is D-rank. OK, Pikachu is less versatile, but it can at least nuke something into oblivion with those huge offensive stats (and Pika can go mixed!).

 

[jake]

True. But I was already undecided, and the lack of Bulk Up just pushed me to A-rank. A-rank is pretty fine. You gave the definition for A-rank yourself when talking about Ludicolo:


I think this goes for Kangaskhan as well. It is pretty damn good, but you can't just slap it on any team and expect it to improve and still has a bit of a lack in power. A variety of things just cockblock it, like Metang, as well as the aforemented Gurdurr (which Drain Punches and recovers quite a bit of health next turn and can switch into Fake Out as well). Missy can survive two hits and Will-O-Wisp you, leaving you out for the entire game, but indeed is not a reliable check if you use Sawk alongside Kanga.

The key argument with Kanga is that it has no flaws apart from "it can't break through defensive mons", which you can either pair it with other Pokemon or stick Toxic on it or something. You literally can slap it onto an offensive team and expect it to improve. Non physically-defensive Metang is cleanly 2HKOed by Earthquake if you switch it in on Double-Edge, while it does jack all in return (and Metang is certainly set-up bait for multiple other things). I already stated that Gurdurr is abysmal in this metagame. You don't have to stay in on checks, and all of the ones you mentioned don't have the ability to take momentum off of Kanga's team. Nearly every team right now runs a way to beat Gurdurr (Musharna primarily) and Metang can do nothing except try to Toxic something incoming (doesn't mean much since you're using an offensive team) or set up SR, and Missy can really only try to burn (and if you carry Sub on Kanga then gg Missy).

Point is, every Pokemon in S-Rank has an otherwise insignificant flaw. Sawk can't break teams on its own without hazard support or a significant amount of support, Samurott has to choose between one of two very good sets but is slow and almost always susceptible to fast Grass-types, Braviary has the means to beat slow, bulky teams but again struggles with fast Pokemon... I could go through every S-Rank Pokemon except like Musharna and point out flaws that they have but still don't hold them back from S-Rank. Just because Kanga is the opposite of most of these Pokemon and handles offensive teams much better than it does defensive mons doesn't mean we should shun it for S-Rank, IMO.

But with or without Eviolite, Haunter can't switch into coverage moves. Exception is Sawsbuck, Gurdurr, and Leafeon I guess, but even then both 2HKO you (though you can Disable those coverage moves, I guess).
Even then, you can't switch into anything else. Even Leavanny kills you if you switch into a Shadow Claw.

I do agree a well-played Haunter is very dangerous, but since Haunter absolutely can't switch in, at some points using Haunter feels like being down a Pokémon, especially if you use more frail Pokémon on that team already, like Sawsbuck. I had that feeling with Kadabra (I never used Haunter), and Haunter is even frailer... no thanks. I mean, frailty is the reason Pikachu is D-rank. OK, Pikachu is less versatile, but it can at least nuke something into oblivion with those huge offensive stats (and Pika can go mixed!).

I "guess" but now we're using prediction as an argument here, and we really can't rank a Pokemon based on the skill of the player using it. If its frailty really so bothersome then I'm not opposed to keeping it A-Rank for now, but I really think Haunter is only going to get better and better with the upcoming dropdowns. Maybe we can revisit it then.

 

[Aasgier]

About Kanga, true, but every non-HO team has one or two defensive pivots which can cockblock Kanga.

And with Haunter, I agree that it is true that you can't rank a Pokémon on the skill of the player using it, but with extreme frailty I think it should be taken into account, since a minor mistake is punished with you being down a Pokémon.

I agree with Seismitoad for A-rank though. It is pretty good and can do a variety of things.

 

[NfskMjmMal]

We should remember that S-rank doesn't mean "perfect." If a Poke is really nearly flawless it wouldn't be NU. Of course everything has counters - S-rank Pokes can just break though a good portion of the tier with little or no support. Anyway, I'm leaning towards top A-rank for Haunter, if/when we end up breaking each tier into high, middle, and low.

I love Haunter and have used its SubDisable set to great success. It's often a very solid member of my team and not uncommonly the MVP, but there are a lot of "hopeless" situations. I feel like Haunter is extremely threatened by everything that outspeeds it. It hits hard, but not hard enough at times, and often it's kill or get killed. A well-played Haunter is so deadly but Haunter is kind of vulnerable.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Good to see this thread is actualy alive :)

I'd suggest do drop vigoroth for C rank considering it has very few advantages over miltank and is barely ever seen anyway. Vital spirit is a worse sap sipper, his stats are all inferior or equal to miltank's (def might be better with eviolite but no lefties make it meh). No access to SR or possibility of using thick fat or scrappy, no heal bell either. In fact the only thing it has over miltank is taunt and bulk up over curse which in my opinon is far from enough to let him stay in the same tier as cow.

I hate to say this but liepard for B rank. We all know it's main set is a total bitch to face and it actually does work most of the time but my fake absol set has also done some great job for me lately, more than what a C rank poke usualy acheives.

Wynaut for E or Gothorita for C They just don't belong in the same tier.

Jumpluff for B. Jumpluff is actually a pretty annoying son of a bitch. It's very versatile, can be used in sun, and bring nice support with encore and memento but it also has an impressively annoying swords dance set. Atlhough 55 attack is incredibly weak, with steels being so rare in NU, Jumpluff's STAB coverage is near perfect and after a swords dance, a flying gem acrobatics still hits very hard. What really makes SD jumpluff incredile however is it's amazing speed along with it's access to sleep powder. As soon as jumpluff gets a free switch-in on someting that can't harm it, it can get a free swords dance, put to sleep it's incoming counter and sweep an entire enemy team. The only common ice shard user is piloswine, on the other side, jumpluff resists aqua jet, mach punch and can put to sleep sucker punchers.

 

[watashi]

i have been using gothorita a lot recently and i think it should be bumped all the way up to b tier. it can trap a lot of defensive pokemon such as alomomola, tangela, vileplume, and regirock with ease by either setting up on them or toxic stalling. this put a lot of pressure on the opponent's walls and forces them to make double switches. stall teams can also be picked apart to the point where they can no longer function. even some offensive pokemon such as sawk, gurdurr, or even musharna can be beaten with a simple set of toxic/psychic/calm mind/rest. gothorita makes a lot of high tier pokemon even more dangerous, such as samurott, kangaskhan, and sawsbuck.

 

[Celever]

i have been using gothorita a lot recently and i think it should be bumped all the way up to b tier. it can trap a lot of defensive pokemon such as alomomola, tangela, vileplume, and regirock with ease by either setting up on them or toxic stalling. this put a lot of pressure on the opponent's walls and forces them to make double switches. stall teams can also be picked apart to the point where they can no longer function. even some offensive pokemon such as sawk, gurdurr, or even musharna can be beaten with a simple set of toxic/psychic/calm mind/rest. gothorita makes a lot of high tier pokemon even more dangerous, such as samurott, kangaskhan, and sawsbuck.

Would coming in on walls not make Gothorita redundant for much the rest of the fight? Coming in on physical walls may be a great time to set up, but you will more times than not either get hit extremely hard by an offensive regirock, or have sleep, toxic and leech seed onto her.
Gothorita is basicaly not B tier material. It has a small niche that it can trap other pokemon, but what does it have besides that over the other psychic types in the tier? It's kind of in the same boat as girafarig, it has a niche, in one case it is part normal and in the other it has a trapping ability, but besides that they have nothing over other psychic types and as such are only used if you are desperate for trapping some kind of pokemon or have some kind of giant problem with haunters or the like sweeping you. And what tier is girafarig? Well either no one has thought to rank him yet or he is E tier.

With this post I am saying two things, both of the reasoning are in the above paragraph.
Gothorita should stay in D
Girafarig should move up to D
OR
Gothorita moves down to E

Look at the stats, girafarig is more powerful than gothorita, they have fairly similar bulk but girafarig is also much faster than gothorita, with a speed that is good in NU as a whole.
They both have considerable niches, similar stats nd are both of the psycic types.
Oh, and did I mention girafarig also has sap sipper? That is 2 niches.
I may go as far to say that girafarig belongs in C tier. Only just, but maybe.
To justify a bit more, Girafarig could be used to great use on baton pass teams. It learns baton pass, an agility, and work up, and it has enough bulk and definitely enough speed in NU to get off a boost of agility and baton pass it out.

 

[Aasgier]

Girafarig is fairly niche. I think Gothorita is better, simply because you cannot be countered. That is pretty huge by itself; you can't switch out to that Skunk which is everywhere, unlike with Girafarig, unless you use Volt Switch / U-Turn or Baton Pass.

Girafarig faces being outclassed by Sawsbuck, which is Girafarig's main problem. Not that it is actually bad, because Girafarig is not bad. Just... outclassed by Sawsbuck.