NU Viability Ranking

[vibrafoen]

Samurott is a top tier threat because of its versatility: it runs equally dangerous special and physical sets, and until it attacks, you never know what set it's running. It also has a decent amount of bulk that it can take advantage of by switching into weak attacks from walls.

Comparing the two and then saying that one is better is like saying spoons are better than chopsticks because you can eat soup with a spoon.

Fair enough, you guys make a solid point. If it's the versatility that sells it as a team member, than it's your prerogative to slap it on a team. And yes, it's nice to have some priority on your Swords Dance sweeper.

SubSalac isn't very good on either Samurott or Scolipede, and that's a good contention.

All I'm trying to establish is that Samurott's sets, for the most part, are outclassed. Swords Dance Scolipede gets STAB on Megahorn, is faster, and is nearly as unpredictable. Jynx has a higher speed tier and moves that actually boost her special attack, not to mention a coveted sleep-inducing move. Sure, Samurott has a bit more bulk, but as every person who has played NU lately knows, this tier is just getting faster and more offensive. The 70 base speed tier is hardly relevant any more. Is that slightly greater bulk and slightly greater versatility really worth carrying a pokemon that's outclassed? Samurott isn't bad, he's just not as good at his various jobs as other pokemon.

I maintain Samurott for A-rank.

 

[Dell]

Fair enough, you guys make a solid point. If it's the versatility that sells it as a team member, than it's your prerogative to slap it on a team. And yes, it's nice to have some priority on your Swords Dance sweeper.

SubSalac isn't very good on either Samurott or Scolipede, and that's a good contention.

All I'm trying to establish is that Samurott's sets, for the most part, are outclassed. Swords Dance Scolipede gets STAB on Megahorn, is faster, and is nearly as unpredictable. Jynx has a higher speed tier and moves that actually boost her special attack, not to mention a coveted sleep-inducing move. Sure, Samurott has a bit more bulk, but as every person who has played NU lately knows, this tier is just getting faster and more offensive. The 70 base speed tier is hardly relevant any more. Is that slightly greater bulk and slightly greater versatility really worth carrying a pokemon that's outclassed? Samurott isn't bad, he's just not as good at his various jobs as other pokemon.

I maintain Samurott for A-rank.

Looks to me like you're either just completely ignoring what Zebraiken and tennisace are contending to regarding their responses or it's just that your inherent bias is preventing you from thinking objectively. Their argument, based on their facts is that Scolipede's advantages are simply not sufficient nor similar enough to succumb Samurott's viability within its current sets in the metagame, which is definitely true. You keep stating over and over about how Scolipede outclasses Samurott because of hardly relevant claims in Samurott's case (STAB differences, Speed>Bulk, etc.). No way in God's name is Scolipede's Swords Dance set completely outclassing Samurott's Swords Dance set. If you hadn't noticed already, Scolipede's checks are becoming increasingly common as the metagame is progressing, as we're seeing more Misdreavus and Weezing as the main counters (and Bug resists), and offensive checks like Swellow, Rotom-S, Primeape, Charizard etc., several of which can outpace Scolipede and OHKO flat out (via outspeeding or Choice Scarf, all of which are Bug resists as well). These specific problems aren't necessarily the case with Samurott, since it tends to have lesser common checks (and can easily beat Misdreavus and other walls via Lum Berry), the ability to setup much more reliably due to much higher bulk and lack of Stealth Rock weakness (and isn't OHKO'd by the combination of Fake Out+Sucker Punch from Kangaskhan as of result), and access to priority which can often mean the difference between a win or a loss within late-game scenarios. These key components that separates Samurott from Scolipede in terms of sweeping are absolutely necessary for a Samurott sweep.

These facts alone ought to be enough for you to accept that your claims are simply absurd, since what you're doing in the first place is comparing "apples with oranges", which doesn't really make sense.

Needless to say, going to support that Samurott stays in its current rank.

 

[ryan]

I mean, Dell pretty much covered everything that needed to be said about the matter, but I want to throw a little in.

One of the best parts about Samurott is the fact that it can run multiple sets to great success. This point was ignored in your argument to drop it down to A-Rank. When playing against a Samurott, you have to think before you switch in your Alomomola to take a Waterfall/Megahorn because you could actually be switching it in on a Hidden Power Grass/Electric (which is a solid 2HKO, mind you). A misprediction due to Samurott's incredible versatility could easily win or lose games.

A few other redeeming qualities that should keep Samurott in S-Rank, even in this new meta, include its access to Taunt/Encore (which are both excellent filler moves on the Special set); a strong STAB priority move to hit frailer, faster threats; incredible coverage on both of its more common sets; and enough bulk and speed to serve as a solid wallbreaker.

In fact, I feel that its role as a solid wallbreaker is one of the best reasons to run it. No, Samurott doesn't necessarily have the best speed to handle the faster threats in the meta, but you also cannot expect every team to run nothing but fast, frail Pokemon. Samurott has enough speed to outrun nearly every defensive Pokemon in the tier while maintaining enough bulk to be able to beat many of them 1v1. As I mentioned earlier, it also has access to Taunt and Encore to help wallbreak.

Samurott is not to be underestimated, even in our newer, more offensive metagame. It should definitely remain S-Rank.

 

[watashi]

nominating serperior for a-rank

its life orb subcm set is one of the most underrated sweepers in the tier, being one of the few grass-types that can take on scolipede and jynx, massive amounts of damage to them with a boosted hidden power rock. due its typing, it also manhandles a lot of big threats such as carracosta, samurott, seismitoad, and golurk which grants it many chances to set up as the opponent is forced out. overgrow is an amazing ability when coupled with substitute and calm mind as it allows serperior to easily get into the range for a boost and hit extremely hard with giga drain, regaining health.

 

[Punchshroom]

There's also Taunt Serperior, who can stop Roars or Whirlwinds, healing from Musharna or the like (and beat it in the CM war), Taunt from Misdreavus, or even Perish Song Altaria, all while without needing to lose extra health, allowing for more freedom in a LO set. Sub isn't too essential for Serp as it is mainly there to prevent status, given how hard it is to revenge kill. Sub Serperior and Taunt Serperior have the same goals and methods to stop roadblocks, but is usually handled differently by counters. That speed and bulk is also tailormade for Serperior really.

Serperior now has the upper hand over Simisage in this new metagame due to better defenses, speed and sexy boosting moves. A-Rank definitely.

 

[Farobi]

I agree placing Serperior in A-Rank. It may not fit well with other top-tier threats in the rank, but I see it barely reaching A-Rank. Taunt + CM lets it setup on the likes of Alomomola, Seismitoad, and the almighty Wormadam (wut?) among others. Serperior may seem only decent in paper, but it sure is a big threat in NU once its counters are weakened / dead. Serperior is also quite bulky and can run a few support moves like Dragon Tail, Glare, and Leech Seed. I don't mind if you guys still put it on B-Rank because of the increase in usage of Zebstrika, Weezing, and Swellow, but do try Serperior out before you disregard it as a threat in this metagame!

I also want to argue a bit about Arbok's and Charizard's placements in B-Rank. Arbok should drop to C-Rank because it sucks in this metagame with Scolipede and Jynx running around, it should've moved down when Amoonguss left imo. Charizard is something that gained a great new niche for being a great revenge killer by outspeeding Choice Scarf Jynx, Primeape, and non-scarfed Scolipede, and even an incredible wallbreaker if sun (which is the best weather in NU atm) is up. Stealth Rock weakness sucks though (the only reason why its in b imo), as well as Solar Power damage if you are using sun, but overall I still think it's worthy of A-Rank because of its brute force and great speed tier, it's also pretty versatile, it can run an SD set or a mixed Acrobatics set effictively to take care of its counters (lol what counters zard anyway?).

 

[vibrafoen]

Zebraiken and tennisace are right, I suppose I haven't been totally fair when considering my points. Samurott should stay S-rank.

 

[Dell]

Ah, it appears that people here agree with me about the snake not playing any games at all. I felt that the arguments against it weren't necessarily backed by good evidence, so I feel that this deserves more discussion, which it ultimately did.

I kind of like Taunt more so than Substitute, based upon Punchshroom's statements and also the fact that Taunt can also gain Serperior early setup opportunities on the likes of common Stealth Rock users like Golem (which can really benefit its teammates that it synergizes well with early game since it's shutting down their attempts of setting up hazards, supporting offensive threats such as Swellow, Scolipede, Charizard, etc.), and it also lets it win against every Calm Mind war (specifically Musharna and opposing Serperior), and setting up on Taunt users like Misdreavus and occasional phazers. Substitute also has its uses as well, since it makes Serperior harder to revenge kill if it manages to stay behind its Substitute, but I feel that Taunt tends to benefit more throughout the course of battles and that Taunt generally sees more opportunities to make more potential use of it, due to its utility and the offensive nature of the current metagame since Serperior does have the bulk (especially after Calm Mind boosts) and speed to beat several threats anyways.

Thereby I currently agree that A-rank is the suitable spot for Serperior.

@vibrafoen, Thank you for understanding, and I encourage you to continue your contribution here.

 

[Celever]

To continue, I'd like to nominate Charizard for A-Rank. This thing is a goddamn beast, and it just got better with the new drops. With a Scarf, it can outspeed any variants of Primeape and Jynx, and any variants of Scolipede that doesn't run a Scarf (LOL) and OHKO them with the appropriate move. It's also surprisingly diverse, being able to run a very effective Swords Dance set with Earthquake, Stone Edge and Flare Blitz. It becomes even more scarier on Sun teams, where it can use Solar Power to hit extremely hard. While it's 4x SR weakness is it's biggest downfall, it gets Roost to heal itself.

The only thing I found surprising about that post is that charizard is B. I assumed A rank charizard a given and didn't even think to check. Come on guys, a complete monster like charizard B? Yes, a massive stealth rock weakness. Put it on an offensive team (even though wall charizard is SO good...) that can keep rocks off of the field. That, or you can literally time the switch great and rip apart your opponent's team the one time it does switch in! It doesn't need sun to work well at all, and the SD set also can surprise the opponent and net several kills!

 

[FortressDoor]

I would like to propose Rapidash to A Rank. With Weezing and Misdreavus being the most common walls, Rapidash's Flash Fire is extremely useful. Not only is Rapidash immune from their WoW's, but he gets powered up from them! In addition, Rapidash outspeeds non-Scarfed Jynx. With a Scarf, Rapidash outspeeds everything bar Choice Scarf Scholipede. With a band, Rapidash can very nearly OHKO Misdreavus after Flash Fire boost.

 

[vibrafoen]

I would like to propose Rapidash to A Rank. With Weezing and Misdreavus being the most common walls, Rapidash's Flash Fire is extremely useful. Not only is Rapidash immune from their WoW's, but he gets powered up from them! In addition, Rapidash outspeeds non-Scarfed Jynx. With a Scarf, Rapidash outspeeds everything bar Choice Scarf Scholipede. With a band, Rapidash can very nearly OHKO Misdreavus after Flash Fire boost.

Charizard, besides it's 4x SR weakness, totally outclasses Rapidash. Charizard is also immune to WoW, and admittedly, Flash Fire is useful but has little utility when you can simply use someone with greater firepower without predicting the W-o-W. Scarfed Rapidash also doesn't hit nearly as hard or have as much general usefulness as Primeape, or even Sawk. His main STAB also has recoil, which means along with its SR weakness, it doesn't have much survivability.

Rapidash should stay in its current rank.

 

[FortressDoor]

Charizard, besides it's 4x SR weakness, totally outclasses Rapidash. Charizard is also immune to WoW, and admittedly, Flash Fire is useful but has little utility when you can simply use someone with greater firepower without predicting the W-o-W. Scarfed Rapidash also doesn't hit nearly as hard or have as much general usefulness as Primeape, or even Sawk. His main STAB also has recoil, which means along with its SR weakness, it doesn't have much survivability.

Rapidash should stay in its current rank.

Charizard has Flare Blitz? The two things do completely different things.

And Charizard has a worse SR weakness.

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

Ya know what mon is totally overlooked in NU. Persian. While it isn't for every team, it makes a great scout/lead with a technician boosted fake out, U-turn, and the ever useful Taunt to stop Stealth Rock leads. A technician boosted bite also isn't bad to stop the common Haunters in the tier, as it's great speed makes it faster than just about every non-scarf Pokemon I can think of in the tier.

Therefore, I nominate Persian for D, if not C rank

 

[FortressDoor]

Ya know what mon is totally overlooked in NU. Persian. While it isn't for every team, it makes a great scout/lead with a technician boosted fake out, U-turn, and the ever useful Taunt to stop Stealth Rock leads. A technician boosted bite also isn't bad to stop the common Haunters in the tier, as it's great speed makes it faster than just about every non-scarf Pokemon I can think of in the tier (at least every mon I can think of).

Therefore, I nominate Persian for D, if not C rank

Why not use Liepard? Fake-Out isn't doing much anyways, and Liepard has all that, with a PRIORITY Taunt, and Priority Thunder Wave

 

[Axa]

I also want to argue a bit about Arbok's and Charizard's placements in B-Rank. Arbok should drop to C-Rank because it sucks in this metagame with Scolipede and Jynx running around, it should've moved down when Amoonguss left imo.

I'm iffy on Arbok - it has to deal with Scolipede, Jynx and Weezing now, but on the other hand, it still pretty much shuts down Alomomola cold, and with HP investment also handles Primeape superbly, even without running Intimidate, and STAB Gunk Shot allows it to hold its own offensively. I personally think it's safe enough in B-Rank, if barely.

On the other hand, I think Garbodor might deserve to get bumped down to C-Rank. Scolipede near completely outclasses it now, and Jynx around severly threatens its lifespan.

 

[Anty]

I think that meganium should be C-Rank. It bulky as hell, gets reliable recovery and has somewhat of an offensive presence.

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

That definition suits meganium perfectly. It has competition from tangela and roselia but it can set up dual screens, it is a great subseeder, it can use grasswhistle (not as accurate as sleep powder but oh well) and aromatherapy (roselia gets it but is over looked my natural cure), it can take physical hits better, doesn't get screwed by knock off and can swords dance.

edit: it can also shuffle with dragon tail.

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

Why not use Liepard? Fake-Out isn't doing much anyways, and Liepard has all that, with a PRIORITY Taunt, and Priority Thunder Wave

Because Liepard plays a better support role, but Persian's Fake out does more damage and gets U-Turn. It is fast enough where it doesn't really need priority, that's just a nice bonus for liepard

 

[FortressDoor]

Because Liepard plays a better support role, but Persian's Fake out does more damage and gets U-Turn. It is fast enough where it doesn't really need priority, that's just a nice bonus for liepard

Liepard gets U-Turn. If you want Fake-Out Damage, use Kanga

 

[Celever]

Liepard gets U-turn as well.

Anyway, persian is E. Next?

Explanation? Well, it is a kangaskhan. But worse. Kangaskhan gets double priority, which already blows persian out of the water, but also Persian only uses fake out. Sure, it has technician, but that is hardly a game breaker for it. fyi, persian isn't even that fast, 115 ISN'T that fast nowadays in NU.
(i remember when gardy was considered fast...)
Look at this, this is an actual stat here used with "usage persian, moves": "Nothing 16.929%"
That shows that it is used for fake out and U-turn, maybe a stronger STAB. seriously, it is mad...
PERSIAN E RANK FINAL

Meganium is D? I think it should be B. Seriously. I put it forward for C in RU, in NU it should definitely be at least B. Reasoning is fairly self-explanatory, but anty did a fairly nice explanation!

I tried arbok and it was down-right pathetic. It has no place in this meta-game and it ended up getting replaced for a /seviper/ of all things. (shoudl be D rank imo) so yeah, arbok for C.

 

[sickweare]

115 is and always will be fast by any standards in any metagame OU and down. The thing that keeps Persian low imo is its low attack (which is kind of complimented by Technician) and the fact that it is easily walled.

Meganium is bulky but it has a lot of competition when it comes to bulky grass types in this meta (see Vileplume and Roselia on the special side). It has some nice perks though, having better mixed bulk, but just has stiff competition from everything else.

Arbok is not pathetic and it can be used to huge success. Intimidate shuts down so many Pokemon bar Braviary, and Coil is such a good move to use with its relatively good defensive typing. Its coverage is superb and is a very good anti-meta mon. Arbok's problems lie in speed and poor defenses which can be made up for. Imo, Arbok needs more love, not less. Arbok should stay where it is.

 

[Leafshield]

I agree on B-Rank for Arbok. I used him plenty in stages 7 and 8, back when he did really well against Alomomola/Amoonguss cores. Now, in Stage 9, he has a notable niche as being a bulky Poison-Type who can still provide a strong offensive presense, shown in the way he handles Choice-locked Sawk and most (if not all) forms for Primeape. He can also take on dangerous mons such as Alomomola and Regirock and has the awesome perk of being able to effectively paralyze Ground-Types and make them less of a threat to your team. His coverage is great, as well as having two awesome abilities in Intimdate and Shed Skin, allowing him to check Fighting-Types even better or boost up with Coil without the fear of Missy going in to Will-O-Wisp you. His bulk is complemented by Coil, making his Gunk Shot very usable very quickly, giving him amazing STAB to go along with great coverage moves in Earthquake and Seed Bomb. IMO, he's a big threat in the meta, being able to check and boost all over Primeape, who is on almost every team, and do some major damage with his coverage moves.

To conclude I restate my opinion: Arbok for B-Rank

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

Liepard gets U-Turn. If you want Fake-Out Damage, use Kanga

Really? Checked liepards move set and don't remember seeing u-turn. Oh well. Persian I guess just works for me because it's works as a great scout and taunter, I've used liepard and it just doesn't seem to work as well as Persian

 

[Punchshroom]

I don't see Persian's niche really, it may be able to do something others can't, but how much does that matter in the metagame. All I see in Persian is that it is really fast, but can't do much because of its pathetic base 70 Attack and base 65 Special Attack. Why did I mention Special Attack? Because it can run a surprise Nasty Plot set to actually hurt things. The scout set really can't do much anymore; Kanga's Fake Out and Sucker Punch combos are better than Persian's Tech Fake Outs by a mile, U-Turn deals piddly damage (Liepard's U-Turn does more!), Hypnosis's terrible accuracy means a miss is likely to cost Persian, and Taunt doesn't really work on Persian since you're almost never scaring anything out, usually meaning you're the one making the switch. Why Taunt something and switch immediately when you can Taunt something and either destroy them (Samurott), set up (Serperior), or not die (Murkrow, Misdreavus and Golbat)?

Persian doesn't do much, and it likely never will with those stats. E-Rank. I also don't understand what you're doing with either of the cats to say Liepard's not doing as well as Persian, you're likely using either one (most likely Liepard) not to the best of their abilities or just flat out wrong.

 

[Lolk]

Arbok is an incredibly good poke in this meta. After a Coil, gunk shot becomes and amazingly powerful STAB thats only downfall is 8 PP. Shed Skin is a fantastic ability for set up sweepers and Arbok has decent speed for NU. Jynx is not as threatening as it seems since both gunk shot and sucker punch KO. All it takes is a good prediction on your part. Arbok should stay in B Rank

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

Eh, like I said, I just find it works for me, not everybody. Maybe I'll give liepard a second look, maybe I just had a bad team around it the first time. One thing I did notice though was Cradily in C-rank. I believe this doesn't give quite enough credit to Cradily as C-rank pokemon have "notable flaws". Cradily has no real notable flaws, as it's typing leaves it only weak to bug fighting, while it's ability gives it immunity to water. While it's speed is low, it does have curse to makeup for this, and it has good offensive dual stab. It also has stockpile for those who are looking for a mixed wall, as after just a few, it becomes very stout on both defenses. It also has recover, a move most walls in nu would kill for. It can carry it's weight as an offensive mon too with a swords dance set and the aforementioned great offensive dual stab typing.

Overall, with it's great walling and support abilities, along with being able to help a team offensively, I nominate Cradily for B-rank