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NU Viability Ranking

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Annoyer, Oct 10, 2012.

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  1. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Absolutely agree. Between Golbat's good bulk, speed, adequate enough power, reliable recovery, immunity to Toxic and slew of annoying moves like Taunt, Toxic, Super Fang or U-Turn, Golbat is one of the best, if not the best stallbreaker in NU (like Crobat in UU), in addition to checking some of the most dangerous threats in NU such as Primeape, Scolipede, and even Golurk. I'm surprised he wasn't B-Rank already.
  2. JoshuaMunoz

    JoshuaMunoz

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    Golbat was actually moved to C if I remembered correctly. I agree, though, that Golbat should be B-Rank. It has one of the best defensive typing for dealing with the prominent threats in the tier, namely Golurk, Primeape, and Scolipede. It also has reliable recovery unlike Misdreavus, and can be a nuisance in general.
  3. bobbyvaporeon

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    So I was wondering, and we talked about it at #neverused, do you think it would be cool if we started dong write ups? NU is a unique tier, and since the point of this thread is to help new players it could help if we had some analyzing done. An example could be:
    Scolipede:
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    Scolipede is a very dangerous Pokemon in the current metagame. His movepool allows him to run many different sets, such as a, Offensive Spiker set, or the SubSalac set that every team has had to prepare for nowadays. Coverage options such as Earthquake and Aqua Tail allow it to beat Golurk, and having access to Swords Dance and Baton Pass can allow it to help it's teammates even more. While it's typing gives it weaknesses to common Rock and Psychic attacks, as well as a Weakness to Stealth Rock, as well as poor defences that letit be revenge killed fairly easy, Scolipede can be near impossible to take down when it's counters are out.

    idk if that was great, but I know a lot of you can make great write-ups, so I hope Annoyer sees this.
  4. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Ok, WHERE is Stoutland?
    I don't see it anywhere, despite the fact that it is actually a VERY good mon!
    Is Stoutland banned in NU or something? I know there's no weather so no Sand Rush but with Scrappy Stoutland can hit a lot of the tier for unresisted damage!
    Nominating Stoutland for discussion(maybe someone can enlighten me why it's E-rank as of now, I'm sure it isn't that bad)
  5. Axa

    Axa

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    Stoutland's simply outclassed by Tauros and Kangaskhan - they even get Intimidate and Scrappy, respectively. Stoutland's forced to use Superpower for Rocks while the other two get Earthquake, and his speed tier is fairly unfavourable right now.

    Stoutland does get Roar, so I suppose it could make some kind of bulky shuffler along with Intimidate, but aside from that, it's not bad, just not having anything to really stand out.
  6. Hollywood

    Hollywood le toucan has arrived
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    I mean, Axa pretty well covered it.

    Stoutland is a really cool Pokemon (it's a dog, so of course I love it). It has pretty good bulk, sure. But Kangaskhan's bulk is comparable, and it has a better Speed tier and access to a fantastic ability in Scrappy. It also has access to two solid priority moves in the form of Fake Out and Sucker Punch. This, more than anything else really, sets Kangaskhan apart from the other Normal-types in the tier. If Stoutland had access to these, it would definitely be much better. But Scrappy keeps it from being walled by one of the tier's premier physical tanks--Misdreavus. There's not much outside of Tangela and Alomomola that really wants to switch into Kangaskhan.

    Tauros is an entirely different Pokemon, but it's still much better than our canine friend. Both of its abilities are stellar and help it do its job exceedingly well. Sheer Force allows its moves to get a nice 30% boost to any of its moves that have secondary effects. This increase in power is really notable. It's also got access to Intimidate, much like Stoutland. The difference here is that if it is used over Sheer Force, you can switch into attacks much more easily. While Tauros won't be walling anything, it is useful in a pinch when you have no choice but to switch out but want to maintain offensive momentum. Additionally, its 110 base Speed is too great to ignore; it beats out most of the common offensive threats in NU while still hitting really hard.

    Ultimately, Stoutland is severely outclassed in an offensive role in NU as a Normal-type. I do feel that its use can be warranted though, perhaps just in a different manner. It does have access to Intimidate, Thunder Wave, and Roar which are all great for a support Pokemon. I feel like a bulky set with Thunder Wave/Roar/Return/filler could be worth trying out as a nice para-shuffler. Though admittedly, I still don't know that I would want to use it. I may test it out to see if it's at least D-Rank material (which I would think it is, though I'm not entirely sure). I don't believe it warrants any higher ranking than D though.
  7. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Well actually Stoutland gets Scrappy too so it can actually run a decent set.
    Also, if you can setup Sandstorm reliably, Stoutland can sweep using Sand Rush.
    For this alone it should be D or C Rank.

    What about Grovyle? It gets no analysis, but it can run a good Unburden set and after the loss of the item outspeeds the whole tier including Ninjask. With a decent 85 base SpA, Grovyle could run a Unburden Grass Gem set and sweep.
    For this merit alone(of outspeeding the tier post unburden) I feel it deserves at least D-rank
  8. scorpdestroyer

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    I don't think Stoutland deserves any more than D because like Treecko and Axa said, it's just horribly outclassed and its only niche is Thunder Wave and Roar, which isn't much of one to begin with. I'd almost rather use Lickilicky who has similar bulk, Body Slam and Dragon Tail, and a hoard of other support moves.

    Grovyle isn't a very good mon IMO. It's just too frail and can't come in on anything, not even resisted moves. 85 SAtk is too low to achieve 2HKOs on most neutral targets and it just gets one hard hit with its gem, meaning it is too easily walled and KOd in return, and it will be hard pressed to activate the gem and unburden in the first place, before it gets crippled. It's base 95 speed is no longer good in this meta before Unburden as Scolipede, Jynx and Primeape now roam the tier. Its special movepool is also incredibly barren, meaning it has no way of getting past Grass-types, Sap Sippers and the like. A physical moveset is out of the question because Grovyle's attack is lackluster and it has an incredibly hard time setting up. So no, it's not worth the teamslot and you're better off using something like Serperior instead. Definitely E-rank.
  9. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    I am highlighting these in the implication that it is all these two can do well at all. Stoutland is too much of a high maintainence poke to be considered rewarding for Sand Rush to work. You practically have to have one or two teammates pack Sandstorm and Smooth Rock to support Stoutland and even then the turn for the move to be used and the switch consumes at least 2 turns, so that's at most 6 turns for Stoutland to sweep before it reverts back to mediocrity, and mind you, 100 base Attack is good but not fantastic enough to make this worthwhile, as its Normal STAB can miss out on a number of KOes since it can't hit anything SE. Crunch and Superpower make for good coverage, but so many other Normal-types have this combination (or Dark + Ground) to beat resists that Stoutland is no special case. That's really Stoutland's problem: it's nothing special. Sand Rush sets aren't particularly worth it; Scrappy sets have to compete with Kangaskhan's better speed, coverage and priority; even Intimidate sets compete with Granbull of all things, who has more power and Heal Bell along with literally every one of Stoutland's other support options at the cost of less speed, which is hardly relevant.

    Grovyle just doesn't hit hard enough, and its coverage is limited when compared to its evolution Sceptile, notable lacking Earthquake and Focus Blast. Grass Gem Unburden would've been a neat idea if it weren't for the fact that it is completely counterproductive with Grovyle's strongest move in Leaf Storm, forcing you to use Giga Drain if you don't wan't to hit for piss poor damage and/or waste your Unburden boost, not to mention Grovyle's poor special coverage. Mixed sets aren't great because of its base 65 Attack which isn't even fully invested, where even a Flying Gem boosted Acrobatics would do laughable damage. Don't get me started on physical sets, you've almost no opportunity to setup because you can't hold Eviolite to guard your atrocious defenses, unlike fellow NFE Combusken. Speaking of which Combusken can wield Life Orb and has high powered attacks such as Fire Blast, Flare Blitz and Focus Blast to turn its base 85 offenses into something more. Grovyle has to work with unboosted/one-time powered Leaf Blade or Giga Drain, which have poor coverage with anything else Grovyle has. Its speed is really not worth the non-existant bulk and underwhelming power imo.
  10. Infernis

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    Honestly, offensive Ninjask completely outclasses Grovyle. Somehow it has more physical bulk, about the same on the special side. It hits harder, and it's already faster after one or two turns of speed boost. Eviolite Grovyle has a bit more bulk, but no offense to speak of. (And no Unburden.) AcroBlimp can do practically the same thing with the additional power of Acrobatics. Scarfstrika hits harder while being faster off the bat. I guess that Grovyle has Grasswhistle with which to possibly put a foe to sleep. But there are much better sleep inducers. I just don't see a Grovyle set out there that isn't wildly outclassed by at least one other Pokemon.
  11. Lasagne

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    SubPunch Grovyle can actually do a decent job, though it certainly isn't particularly good, and it is outclassed by many things, such as Golurk and Kangaskhan. Grovyle does have unique coverage among them however, which I suppose gives it a slight niche. The biggest downfall is its pitiful attack, but I think Grovyle should be D-rank for it's ability to utilise a SubPunch set fairly efficiently, while still not providing enough of a niche to move it up to C.
    Magcargo likes this.
  12. ebeast

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    Grovyle is plain and simply a terrible Pokemon in NU. There is a better Pokemon for anything you ever want it to do. Simisage and Serperior stand out as superior special attackers with the former having better overall stats and access to Superpower while the latter having Calm Mind and overall superior stats.

    Just because it has access to SubPunch doesn't mean it should SubPunch or that it has any particular niche doing so. Grovyle is extremely weak on the physical side and so frail that it actually loses to Alomomola 1v1 with Leaf Blade doing only 29-34% and Alomomola's Waterfall being able to break its Substitutes. Grovyle is basically never getting up a Substitute because it's so weak that nothing is really threatened by it and almost everything is capable of doing 25% or more to it. Grovyle deserves E-rank for being atrocious in the metagame.

    Just for fun: 252 Atk Grovyle Focus Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Carvanha (+Def) : 73.47% - 87.07% (2 hits to KO)
  13. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    Damn, I'm gonna start using Carvanha! (not)

    and yeah, grovyle stays E, EBeast should know what he's talking about, he's the beast of the E tier.
  14. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    kk im editing this because no one else has in forever, i'll try to keep this updated from now on!

    Changes that I've made:


    Proposed Changes I would like to see discussed:
  15. Punchshroom

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  16. Hollywood

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    I will post on more of the proposed changes soon, but before I do, I wanted to nominate (or support depending on when Dell posts) Ursaring for B Rank.

    With Quick Feet and a Jolly nature, Ursaring hits 343 Speed, outspeeding base 105s with a positive nature. Not only that, Ursaring, being the manly bear it is, wrecks everything. With 130 base Attack and a STAB boosted Facade, not much can switch into it. One exception is Rock and Steel-types who resist Facade. The issue here is that Ursaring has perfect coverage with powerful Close Combat and respectably strong Crunch. You can also run either Protect to ensure that you can activate your Orb safely or Swords Dance to sweep and wipe out your opponent's whole team! o:

    Of course, you can always run Guts instead. Guts Ursaring will almost never (read: should never) sweep, but it hits so incredibly hard that it can serve as an effective wallbreaker.

    252 Atk Guts Ursaring (+Atk) Facade vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def) : 49.4% - 58.38% (2-3 hits to KO)

    Possible HP Damage: 165, 166, 169, 171, 172, 175, 177, 178, 180, 183, 184, 186, 189, 190, 192, 195

    That means that if Tangela hopes to survive both hits, since it does not have passive Leftovers recovery, it needs to switch in without any hazards on the field while Ursaring has to hit one of the two lowest roles two times in a row. Basically what I am trying to say is that you have to get lucked really badly if you don't 2HKO with Facade.

    Wrecked.

    252 Atk Guts Ursaring (+Atk) Facade vs 252 HP/252 Def Alomomola (+Def) : 58.61% - 69.1% (2 hits to KO)

    Wrecked.

    As you can see, more offensive teams can falter quite easily under the pressure of Quick Feet Ursaring, and the sturdiest of physical walls cannot handle the Guts set. You really can't go wrong with Ursaring, and it definitely deserves B-Rank. C-Rank is laughable for such a powerhouse.
  17. FLCL

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    i don't think garbodor should be moved down. it is still a much better defensive spiker than scolipede and can rack up loads of damage against the likes of kangaskhan and primeape with aftermath or by simply holding rocky helmet, something that scolipede never uses. it is extremely hard to ohko without a ground or psychic-type attack, and the former are almost always slower than garbodor. even some super effective moves such as scarf jynx's psychic or standard golurk's earthquake cannot take garbodor out in one hit.
  18. Dell

    Dell Hi there!
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    I'm agreeing with Treecko's contending towards nigh completely. While Quick Feet Ursaring is by no means as powerful as Zangoose, that flaw often doesn't come into victim of too many relative situations as it still has an Attack stat that is powerful enough to 2HKO most offensive Pokemon at worst. Additionally, it also has the ability to boost with Swords Dance if your momentum is sufficient without the need of Protect, which allows it to further surpass Zangoose's power while at the same time having a better chance of taking advantage of frail offensive teams that defines most of the metagame for the time being.

    While Guts Ursaring shouldn't be aiming to sweep without some unorthodox ways of supporting it, it's still a decent option for teams in need of breaking through multiple cores. Especially in this regard, it would probably almost always kill something and can wear down cores that have a tendency of switching around a lot for the sake of dealing with a certain threat.

    To further support this claim, user EBeast already toppled the Scrabble Ladder Challenge using a team build primarily based around Quick Feet Ursaring from what I can tell, with a whopping score and undefeated record of 20-0. I know that the ladder isn't super competitive and therefore doesn't always showcase a good indication, but I believe that it EBeast's performance does show a good indication of how a good player should use Ursaring from the information I've gathered and I think he would agree with this change as well. B-rank it is.

    Moving on to other matters, I would like to talk about moving Luxray to B-rank. Not only that I've recently discovered how much it completely demolishes stall/balance with its coverage on the Mixed set, but it also happens to be one of the best options when it comes to luring most threats in general due to its ability to beat any Ground-type and hit special walls (or Piloswine) with Superpower if they magically expect to wall you for using primarily Special-oriented moves. In general it's quite a versatile Pokemon with solid offensive stats on both sides with a decent Speed stat and its abilities such as Intimidate are quite useful because it allows it to semi-pivot a good number of physical attackers and beat them 1v1, such as Vital Spirit Primeape or Kangaskhan. An underrated filler move in its mixed offensive set that I tend to like a lot is Volt Switch, as it often likes pairing itself with Pokemon that can deal with bulky Grass-types like Roselia anyways such as Swellow, Driftblim, Jynx, Charizard, or even Rotom-A (since it can formulate a Dual Volt Switch core that's designed to lure and eliminate either others checks with their coverage moves) and it can generate a lot of momentum due to its tendency of forcing a ton of switches. Overall it's a solid wallbreaker and while it may require some prediction, it is quite an effective team player that can support a lot of offensive Pokemon.
  19. Axa

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    I'm going to make a bit of a controversial push for Floatzel to B-Rank. It's notably frail, yes, but I have to say that the mixed LO set rips through so much of the metagame right now it's not even funny. Despite its average attacking stats, LO Hydro Pump severly dents so many Pokemon, often getting 2HKOs and has a good shot of OHKOing Scolipede and Primeape. Crunch OHKOs Jynx even without investment, and has a 50% chance of OHKOing offensive Gardy after SR or leaving it near useless. Its speed tier is fantastic right now, as it's really only outsped by Zebstrika and Swellow (Electrode and Ninjask too, but those aren't as important). It does have a bit of 4MSS as it has to choose between either being able to handle Miltank/Lickillicky or Alomomola/Seismitoad and it's going to have trouble with Regice and Mantine, but given how fast it can rip through most teams lacking priority I feel it's deserving of B-Rank.
  20. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Hmm...Floatzel could honestly go for a shot at B-Rank thanks to its magnificent speed and decent coverage. Lo Floatzel can used mixed sets to decent effect, with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Focus Blast and Crunch/Pursuit hitting many threats for decent damage. An immunity to Will-o-Wisp thanks to Water Veil allows Floatzel to come in on Will-o-Wispers and mess them up as well. Choiced Floatzels with Switcheroo can cripple defensive pokemon he'd otherwise have no chance of touching, while Bulk Up + Baton Pass & Taunt gives him another small niche as well.

    The main problems with Floatzel are his shaky damage output and extreme fraility, which both combine together to stunt Floatzel greatly. What I mean by shaky power is that his stronger moves (Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Focus Blast) are in his weaker offensive stat, whereas his physical moves (Waterfall, Ice Punch, Brick Break/Low Kick) are much weaker in comparison. If Floatzel doesn't KO its target, it is usually crippled by damage / status or straight up OHKOed.

    However, much of its cons can be applied for a number of B-Rank pokemon as well, so Floatzel can possibly make the rise up to B-Rank.
  21. vyomov

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    I completely agree with Punchshroom re Duosion.
    Duosion deserves C-Rank because it is outclassed by Beheeyem as a TR sweeper. Here's why:
    a) Bulk: While Beheeyem is by no means bulky, it's bulk is JUST enough for it to tank a hit and sweep back. It actually has a decent Special Defense. Duosion on the other hand is just plain horrible: without Eviolite resists OHKO it, while with eviolite it can't match Beheeyem's sweeping potential.
    b) Analytic: With the boost from Analytic,
    . Not kidding. While Duosion's stats are outstanding and Magic Guard is great, Analytic means Beheeyem outclasses as a TR Sweeper.

    So yes, Duosion for C-Rank
    I also agree with Floatzel for B-rank, outspeeds everything in rain and can devastate with the right tactics(Bulk Up + Sweep is a surprisingly good set).
  22. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87 "Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
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    I disagree about moving Duosion to C rank because of its calm mind set, which is almost on par with musharna. Duosion is surprisingly extremely physically bulky, as there are only a handful of pokes that can OHKO it on the physical side (same with musharna). It is also not that difficult to get a calm mind or 2 up, and once you can, it is extremely difficult to take down thanks to magic guard, which prevents status from doing passive damage, and the most reliable recovery move. Yes, this poke does not appreciate battling Scoliopede and a scarfed U-turn from primeape, and does not like sleep from jynx, yet most pokes do not. I would say that this poke is also the biggest threat to stall teams, as it does not care if it's roar away, as it doesn't take hazard damage, and can easily recover off damage; however, stall is more rare now than it was before.
    I've never used either trick room set, but I don't see beheeyem as that much better of a trick room user, though it probably is. Beheeyem will have more special bulk, while duosion will have more physical bulk with eviolite, though it appreciates a life orb. However, you only really need to survive one hit for either poke to be effective, as there are going to be practiaclly no pokes that will outspeed with trick room. Beheyeem is also going to be worn down by life orb recoil, while Duosion will not if it runs life orb, so it might be easier for duosion to live longer, coupled with running regenerator. Analytic beheeyem is not as powerful under trick room anyways, as if it's ideally trying to use trick room, it will move first the following turn and not get the 1.3 boost for moving second. If you are not using trick room, then the moves will be stronger, but it doesn't outclass duosion otherwise. Though musharna is a better CM because of its potential to team support with heal bell, syncronise and a little more unpredictability, Duosion is definitely good enough to stay B rank
  23. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Actually, Analytic doesn't make Beheeyem better at TR sweeping, it simply means that Beheeyem can still function outside of Trick Room and thus is less reliant on it.
  24. Hollywood

    Hollywood le toucan has arrived
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    On top of that, Analytic does trigger upon the opponent's switch. This is actually pretty huge for a Trick Room sweeper since one of the ways that people often deal with Trick Room is switching around until it has ended. I do agree that I would rather use Beheeyem in most situations than Duosion. I personally don't much care for Duosion and have not used it in a while. Strictly off of theorymonning, I would agree with Duosion for C-Rank since I would imagine its Calm Mind set is outclassed by Musharna, and I would rather use Beheeyem as a Trick Room sweeper. However, I don't feel comfortable going off of theorymon alone and would definitely like to see more discussion on the matter from players who have recently used Duosion.
  25. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    I really don't think that Floatzel should be B rank, I think C rank fits it quite well. Floatzel is definitely not B rank material, it is frail and weak. It really struggles to compete with other water-types. Its speed is great, but it is far to weak to do anything with it. I could easily be proven wrong here, but floatzel is a Pokemon that I rarely see used well.

    Many great Pokemon right now can switch into it and take it down quite easily. Seismitoad takes any set without HP Grass. Kanga does a lot of damage to it. Samurott can hurt it with Megahorn. Alomomola can wear it down, missy can hurt it pretty well. Ludicolo is a great stop. It just doesn't win enough matchups for it to be a B rank mon.

    Luxray I'm also reluctant about, mainly because I never see it used well. It is an adequate wallbreaker and guts user, but there really ddoesn't seem like there is anything special about it. I can be swayed on this though because I have 0 experience using it.
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