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NU Viability Ranking

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Annoyer, Oct 10, 2012.

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  1. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    About Dragonair I don't think it should be in the same rank as Shelgon, who really does the whole mono Dragon Dance more consistently. While Dragonair did get Marvel Scale, it doesn't have nearly the same amount of bulk that Shelgon has on its own when its not asleep which really makes a difference against Pokemon like Emboar and SD Samurott. Shelgon also has higher Attack which makes breaking through Pokemon much easier than Dragonair. If Dragonair really wants to compete with Shelgon in physical bulk it has to be asleep which is not really reliable enough, in my opinion. When its not asleep Pokemon like Emboar can easily break it with by just spamming CB Flare Blitz.

    If Dragonair wants to go a more offensive route it doesn't really have as much as what Fraxure has. While Dragonair has that magic base 70 Speed, its Attack stat, coverage, and lack of Taunt makes it less than ideal compared to Fraxure on a pure offense set. I would say that Dragonair should stay in D-rank.
  2. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    I wasn't commenting on its tiering. If you read the posts, I stated that I don't know what tier it should be in. I was just saying it's obviously stupid of people to use it as a physical sweeper. I mean, look at its stats (and ability). It's obvious that it should be used defensively, but most people I see using it don't use it that way.
  3. Amarillo

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    The thing is, sadly, Bastiodon doesn't "just delay the inevitable sweep." Once you fall asleep, Bastiodon will just switch in, Roar. You keep taking SR and spikes damage, but you have no way to recover your health because you'll be not allowed to Rest again... Unless you go for sack everything and go for late-game sweep method (which can be risky) you can't beat it.

    But, I agree with one thing and it's that Shelgon isn't exactly much better in the metagame? Most water-types are now special, and Shelgon's biggest niche was how it countered both Samu and Emboar really well. Both Shelgon and Dragonair are really forced to rest a lot too, so I'm not exactly sure if one is /better off/ than another. Especially when they have similar defenses when Rest is in play, but Dragonair has a vastly superior special defense all the time.
  4. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    while emboar might have an easier time against dragonair than shelgon, dragonair fills a different niche than shelgon for he can invest in sp.d (which also brings a surprise effect because your opponent does not know which is the weaker defence). So, while emboar is more annoying, once dragonair has his free switch into something that doesn't threaten it and gets a free DD, dragonair can still set up a second against an incoming samurott or ludicolo, to then ohko them, something shelgon can't do.

    252SpAtk Life Orb +1 Torrent Samurott (+SAtk) Ice Beam vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Marvel Scale Dragonair (+SpDef): 71% - 85% (234 - 278 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    ^ rott shold be timid, but just for the record.

    252Atk +2 Dragonair (Neutral) Outrage vs 0HP/4Def Eviolite Samurott (Neutral): 100% - 118% (333 - 393 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

    ludicolo is not as bulky and has a weaker ice beam.

    @ amarillo, bastiodon is usualy not too hard to take down, I'm not saying you should sac everything but dragonair for a final sweep everytime you see bastiodon but to do so only if your opponent clearly has nothing but bastiodon left to counter dragonair and you really can't take down bastiodon any other way.
  5. Detective Dell

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    Still waiting on DTC's response regarding our discussions about Absol!

    Anyways, regarding Dragonair, the problem with it is that its bread and butter sets are usually inferior in regards to other Pokemon, such as Shelgon and Fraxure, and are vulnerable to just about the same amount, if not more, threats that Shelgon and Fraxure would normally succumb to on their respective sets. Its only advantages towards the two is higher Speed than Shelgon, Shed Skin, Marvel Scale, and access to Waterfall for more offensive sets. Because of this, I think D-rank is a good spot for our fellow mystic mate.

    Anyways, still pending on DTC's approval on to moving Absol to S-rank, but there are a couple of more nominations that I would like to make.

    [​IMG]Arbok to B-rank[​IMG]

    Oh, come on, C-rank.... seriously? Nobody knows how much of a dangerous threat that this particular beast can pose in the tier. With access to a very good boosting move in Coil and great setup opportunities towards a good number of prominent threats in the tier, even one boost can lead to the opponent desperately going off to the races to trying to stop this monster. Not only that, it has access to a very powerful STAB move within Gunk Shot that definitely benefits from the Coil boosts, with great coverage with a variety of options, including Aqua Tail, Earthquake, Seed Bomb, and Sucker Punch in its disposal. With this, and Arbok's good distribution of stats and great abilities within Intimidate and Shed Skin, it will well serve good advantage of these moves with the sources of utilizing its offensive coverage well, with the speed to outspeed just about whatever it naturally needs to and it can pose as a tremendous threat to a number of most teams.

    Arbok is also a great definition of an anti-metagame Pokemon. Being one of those Pokemon that can take on and setup on Alomomoonguss, Garbodor, Gurdurr, Skuntank and more very well is another great advantage towards its utility. Solid counters usually aren't relevant enough to come by (being only defensive Misdreavus and Weezing), considering that even Psychic types will take a tremendous amount of damage from boosted Gunk Shots or Sucker Punches and Ground types will usually succumb to Aqua Tail/Seed Bomb.

    With that being said, I think that it is definitely worthy of a higher ranking since it has a very underrated sweeping potential and utility. I'm actually quite temped to nominate this for an A-ranking, because of does fit the category of being able to "sweep through significant portions of the metagame", but I would like to see how good of an idea would people with good experience with utilizing Arbok would feel if it were to move to B-rank before I decide to push my luck even further. What do you guys think?

    Next Nomination: [​IMG]Articuno to A-rank.[​IMG]

    After discussing with WhiteDMist, we can safely say that Articuno is really a diamond in the rough. It performs a few different roles effectively and, despite what many people think, it does NOT always require Rapid Spin support in order to function. Its offensive set combines decent power and coverage with reliable recovery and even Pressure stalling if you also use Substitute. Because it is offensive and has Roost, Rapid Spin support isn't required; even at half health, Articuno can still inflict massive damage to most of the tier and it has solid bulk with the move Roost, so it's not that hard to initially recover back health most of the time. Ice is a very interesting typing in the NU metagame, because many teams don't overly prepare for it. Also of note is the fact that many Flying resists are physically defensive, so they do not take Hurricanes extremely well.

    The SubRoost set requires a bit more support in either Toxic (if Articuno doesn't carry it) or Toxic Spikes to truly reach its potential, but it is also capable or simply stalling out the opposing Pokemon's PP and setting up on Amoonguss and the Flying types that are immune to Toxic Spikes. The stalling is especially significant because Stone Edge and Fire Blast are very common super-effective moves that Articuno can easily stall out; the same goes for Rain sweepers and their mighty Hydro Pumps.

    The Special Defensive set does like to have Rapid Spin support, since it wants all the HP it can have to wall dangerous threats. Like the SubRoost set, it is possible to stall out low PP moves and simply win that way. However, this set is much harder to KO due to Articuno's massive bulk. It has some very useful support moves like Heal Bell, Roar, Tailwind, Haze, Rain Dance and Toxic. Due to the nature of Defensive teams (where this set is most viable), the support Articuno wants is usually already included.

    Overall, Articuno is a bulky threat that shouldn't be ignored. It has answers to many of the notable flaws that plague it, and it can fill some significant roles. With the rise of weather, Articuno stands as a decent bulwark to their power. Rain teams have trouble KO-ing it, while Articuno can strike back hard with accurate Hurricanes and Ice Beams, or it can simply stall out the Rain turns and Hydro Pumps. It is a difficult Pokemon to even revenge kill, since its natural bulk makes it difficult to one-shot and extremely difficult to take down. I think that an A-rank suits it fine for the time being.
  6. Elegy96

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    ^Going to second Arbok going to B rank. His glaring weaknesses to common Psychic and Ground moves prevent him raising higher, in my opinion, but his awesome sweeping power is not be underestimated.

    Also going to nominate Emolga for C tier. The thing has two very handy immunities, great speed, a decent movepool, and the ability to be a general pain in the ass for the oponent, as well as clean up an enemy team towards the end.
  7. Direwolf12

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    So any idea if Serperior will stay in NU when Contrary is released? Being able to spam a 140 STAB base-power move which only gets stronger is insane... plus thanks to Dragon Pulse and HP-Fire he's got pretty much perfect neutral coverage and Giga-Drain for recovery...

    and with a EV spread of 252/Def/4 SpA/252 SpD his bulks maxes out to a nice 291/289/289 and after a single Leaf Storm his SpA maxes out 374...
  8. EonADS

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    Also a proponent for Arbok in B. Much as it's one of the most anti-metagame Pokemon there is right now, it can't take a lot of damage. The sweeping Coil set is OHKO'd by LO Samurott's Hydro Pump after SR, and most powerful special attackers can at least 2HKO it with rocks up.
  9. citro

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    I'm going to agree 100% with Agent Dell and nominate Arbok for B-tier.

    I've been using Arbok on a recent team and I gotta say I'm impressed. He's a pokemon that's often neglected in favor of faster, bulkier sweepers, but he has several awesome factors that make him very anti-metagame. Coil is undeniably one of the best stat boosting moves in the game, it helps him against stall and balance teams alike, as he can comfortably boost alongside things like Gurdurr, while weak physical attacks from common walls are setup bait. The accuracy bonus is far from redundant, as it means he can abuse a 120 BP STAB Gunk Shot. Intimidate and Poison typing is awesome in this tier. Intimidate makes up for his kind of poor defensive stats, and lets him exploit his useful resistances to Fighting and Grass-type moves. He can effectively defeat the Alomoonguss core (thanks to immunity to Toxic and walling Amoonguss) while not being dead weight against more offensive teams. Sucker Punch is great for taking out fast Psychic types like Choice Scarf Gardevoir, and the priority is always welcome on a team.

    I can't really comment on Articuno since I have never used it (something to fix maybe!) so I guess I'll leave that up to everyone else.
  10. Amarillo

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    I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree on Articuno for A tier. Yes, it is bulky, but it needs spin support. Fine, it doesn't REQUIRE it, but in order to be the beast it really is, it needs that spin. It means that it requires a really really specific support that requires a whole teamslot. This in turn leads to a hole in typing coverage that needs another teamslot to be covered.

    I know everyone would agree on the S-tier list IMO, and I see the A-tier usage as the list of everything really good AND standard, and makes for a top threat for lots of teams... I see B-tier as not quite common, but good enough that I'd want to use it / build a team around it to make it really good. From C it starts being iffy.

    Articuno really might be good, but not only is it rare, it needs a lot of support to work. Smashkoal is good. It's still B-tier for a reason. I see the B tier as really good spot for Articuno, mainly because of its SR weakness. The SR weak alone (and the difficulty of spinning and the how rare the good spinners are) makes you really constrained in terms of teambuilding. Maybe without that SR weak, we might see it in A.
  11. Detective Dell

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    I question where you are coming from in the fact that you say it "needs" that spin. Spinning is not the only way to remove Stealth Rock from the field. There is also offensive pressure, and Pokemon that take advantage of that are usually the ones that are commonly associated with it because of that reason and that they more often than not share really valuable synergy towards it, offensively and defensive. Even if Stealth Rock is not removed, it isn't exactly as dead weight as you make it out to be. It has solid bulk and the move Roost, so it's not that hard to recover back health most of the time. I basically summed up the same situation that Moltres has in RU, and Moltres is ranked S-rank in that respective tier. That just goes to show that while I will agree that Articuno is much less threatening with Stealth Rock up, it is still very far from atrocious and it's not a stupid idea to use Articuno without a Rapid Spinner.
  12. ebeast

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    A is for Articuno for the reasons that Agent Dell mentioned, although I would stress out the Offensive SubRoost set the most. It's an extremely powerful set that takes advantage of Articuno's high powered STABs in Ice Beam and Hurricane to become extremely hard to switch into. Factor this in with Articuno's FANTASTIC defenses 90/100/125 is bulkier than Musharna on both sides it can be hard to take down. Articuno's main weakness is lack of resistances and X4 Weakness to Stealth Rock however Articuno's massive bulk somewhat makes up for a lack of resistances and it does have Roost to heal off damage. Since Articuno can force switches with its STABS and base SpA 95 and base 85 Speed stats, it has a opportunities to heal. Articuno also completely destroys the Alomomola + Amoonguss core thanks to its great bulk while its Pressure ability and SubRoost can be used to even stall out Stone Edges if needed. Its strong enough to 2HKO Carracosta with Hurricane and bulky enough to take priority from the likes of Samurott, Skuntank, Gurdurr, and Absol. While's Articuno's X4 Weakness is not something that can be easily ignored Roost and partners such as Smashkoal, Rampardos, Marowak, even Cincinno are around in the tier to prevent Stealth Rock make this manageable, in my opinion.
  13. EonADS

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    I don't agree with the way you guys are comparing Articuno to Moltres.

    First of all, Moltres 2HKO the entirety of RU with Stealth Rock support. Articuno doesn't even come close to that in NU, even with three-move coverage (which isn't a good idea anyway because Sub is the better move). Common defensive Pokemon like Regice, Probopass, and Metang (yes Metang, it isn't quite 3HKO'd by LO Modest Hurricane, and even with SR it isn't assured) can easily switch into Articuno's Ice Beam and Hurricane attacks and strike back with super-effective moves. In addition, common offensive Pokemon can either consistently force Articuno out (like Cinccino and its Rock Blast), or switch in and deal heavy damage (like Rotom-F or Klang). Finally, the biggest issue I have is with the tiers you're comparing. In RU, Rapid Spin support is common and easy to use. In NU? Fat chance of that. I know you said that Rapid Spin isn't the only way to get rid of SR, but isn't it the most effective and permanent solution? I think so.

    Ninpou- Honshohei no Jutsu! (means Ninja Art; Wall of Text Technique, for those of you who don't speak Japanese)

    Articuno is a really good Pokemon; I've used it and can attest to it. However, compared to a lot of Pokemon in the A-Tier (Rotom-S and -F, Sawsbuck, Exeggutor, Eelektross, Sawk, Gardevoir), it just can't compete, and it also lacks the utility that many other Pokemon in A-tier can boast. It has three sets; the defensive set, which is downright bad, the Defensive SubRoost set, which is good, but requires a lot of team support to function properly, and the offensive set, which is great, but has its share of flaws as well. Articuno requires at least a fair amount of support on a team; you cannot just stick it on a team and expect it to do well. The definition of A-Rank (yes, I know DTC said not to base our arguments around this, and I'm not) is that the Pokemon "require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits." Articuno typically requires at least two team slots to be filled with supporting teammates to keep up the necessary offensive pressure to keep Stealth Rock off of your side of the field. It virtually requires Stealth Rock support of its own in order to land many of its KOs, and its most powerful STAB is inaccurate as hell. Furthermore, it has a total of four weaknesses, three of which are to some of the most common offensive types in the tier. With a Modest nature, it is slower than several common sweepers (Jolly Absol and all Zangoose, namely), and it cannot do anything about Cinccino and its Rock Blast. Seeing as Cinccino is absolutely fucking everywhere, that's a problem. Because of its moderate speed and common weaknesses, its defensive bulk is hampered, which conflicts with flaws being able to be overlooked compared to excellent traits. Its bulk isn't as great as one might think either; without investment, switching it into any decent attacker with Stealth Rock up is borderline suicide.

    Overall, Articuno is a good Pokemon that has some serious flaws. Is it dangerous? Hell yeah. Is it powerful? Of course it is. Should your team be at least nominally prepared to face one? Yes, yes it should. Is it worthy of A Rank status? Not in my opinion, no.

    Keep Articuno in B Tier.
  14. Worldtour

    Worldtour left: Hitmonchan right: rest of RU
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    Sorry that this is sorta a weak argument but I think Simisage should go to D-Tier. The entire reason for this? Focus Blast, honestly. Grass is a pitiful STAB to have in the metagame, but it can still hit pretty hard at +2 or with a Leaf Storm. Also, unlike most Grass-types, it can a) Destroy Steels (Klang, Bastiodon etc.) and then use a different Hidden Power that can deal with Birds and b) Destroy Miltank and Sawsbuck, which would usually get a Sap Sipper boost... too bad Simisage is faster than them both. Nasty Plot helps too, which can allow it to get pretty powerful after the boost (if it manages to get the opportunity). 101 base speed is aslo useful to outspeed the aformentioned Miltank as well as Charizard (HP Rock says hi, although it likes HP Ice)

    Other than that it is meh because everything and their mother resists Grass but it has a niche at least, and I have used it to some success when the opponent doesn't have an Amoonguss.
  15. EonADS

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    I might be stepping on more than a few toes by doing this but...

    Amoonguss for S Tier

    Amoonguss is the premier tank in NU. Not only is it exceedingly common (practically forcing you to run at least one answer to it), but it can put one of its counters out with Spore or Stun Spore. It cockblocks setup abusers like Gurdurr with Clear Smog, and it spreads status with severe ease. Its typing combined with its 114/70/80 defenses basically turn it into a catch-all tank for the majority of threats in the tier. Trying to break through Amoonguss with neutral attacks is often an exercise in futility, and even if you get it down to low health, it can easily switch out and restore a third of its health thanks to Regenerator. With smart play, Amoonguss can last through an entire match, supporting a team and walling key threats until the cows come home. Oh yeah, speaking of cows, Miltank is a massive pain in the ass, but offensive sets are worn down if you have Sludge Bomb and defensive sets are typically unable to do much more than annoy Amoonguss and get rid of status. In fact, most of its counters are either stopped by Spore/Stun Spore, or are worn down with careful play and Poison-type STAB. Furthermore, it's one of the only bona-fide counters to SD Samurott in NU, and combine that with its general utility? Bam! Instantly common SD Samurott counter. If something like Musharna, an outright liability in some matches, is S Tier, then Amoonguss deserves it too for its ability to be one of the biggest pains in the ass in the tier as well as its ability to play a useful role in practically any match or under any situation. Hell, even Braviary and Emboar are liabilities sometimes, while I've never had Amoonguss be a liability on any team I've used it on.
  16. Detective Dell

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    I'm going to have to disagree with you there about the idea of Amoonguss into an S ranking. It is clearly A-rank. It has plenty of viable answers to it, but it's a great utility Pokemon with the tools to handle a lot of prominent threats. It is definitely better than about 70% of the current A rank, but not as over-centralizing or game-breaking enough to take an S-ranking. Every team has a check or two towards it nowadays, it's that important of a threat, but that's also what makes it not so huge of a threat.

    I'm pressed for time atm, so sorry if this post has to be so short and lacking of detail. Maybe I'll edit and magnify the argument regarding the post. Will post more later.
  17. FLCL

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    Nominating Regice for A Rank

    Regice is great in the current metagame right now, being able to beat threats such as Special Samurott and Ludicolo with ease thanks to its unmatched special bulk. Pokemon such as Exeggutor, Rotom-S, and Gorebyss have reliatively no chance of beating Regice. The RestTalk set is one of the best switch-ins to Alomoonguss in the tier, taking nearly no damage from the combo and striking back hard with Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. In fact, many defensive teams lack a reliable way of taking down Regice due to its massive bulk and Rest. Additionally, offensive teams have a hard time switching into Regice because of its coverage and decent power. It can find many chances to come in on special attackers and start firing away.
  18. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

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    I wholeheartedly agree with Regice being an A rank. You'd be hard pressed to find a special attacker that can KO Regice thats not Charizard in the sun. It's one of the best checks to things like Ludicolo, Special Samurott in the tier and Ice is an amazing offensive typing right now. No one bothers running ice resists and Regice makes them pay. Not to mention it also completely destroys the Alomoonguss core and is a great sleep absorber. Regice is simply amazing right now. A Rank for sure.
  19. JirachiCelebiMew

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    ''Nominating'' Lickilicky for B-Rank

    Yes, Lickilicky is a great SDef sponge, but really, is he that great? SDef hit taking is the only thing he can do to a certain extent. Why is that? Mainly because people think he can use Wish + Protect, but in reality, he can't. Wish is used to pass on to your teammates, but Lickilicky defeats the purpose of doing that as he mostly uses it for himself. He can't stall much with Protect, as the standard Lickilicky carries Wish|Protect|Heal Bell| Body Slam / Dragon Tail. He is outclassed by Audino in terms of Wish Passing, as Audino has Regenerator. In terms of SDef walling, he's pretty good, but I find that Regice does it better than him. Plus, Lickilicky is a total set-up bait for most Pokémon, who can set-up with ease on him, such as Substitute Haunter, for example. The final nail in the coffin is that Lickilicky is weak to three of the most used (One of them was the most used) Pokémon in NU, and those are Emboar, Gurdurr and Sawk. All this to say that Lickilicky does NOT deserve to be A-Rank and should be in B-Rank. (I'd nominate him for C-Rank but that would be unfair.)
  20. DTC

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    The following changes were made:

    • Absol to S
    • Arbok to B
    • Regice to A

    Of course, all of the other changes that were recently proposed in this thread are still up for discussion.
  21. ium

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    you didn't consider lickilicky's arguably better set which is sub + swords dance. i believe this is why lickilicky was placed in a-rank in the first place. sub + sd lickilicky sits in a similar boat as sub + bulk up braviary where it literally sets up on all weak attackers like alomomola, audino, and amoonguss. however, lickilicky has the additional special bulk at the cost of being a bit slower which allows it to tank special hits much better allowing it to set up substitute with ease. i'm on the fence about lickilicky's ranking. it could be b-rank but not quite exactly for the reasons you stated. for example, regice plays a completely different role imo and it is much easier to set up on audino (lickilicky at least has a different set that allows it to play completely differently). i just wanted to point out that the wish set is not the only thing lickilicky has when considering its viability. my reasoning for it being b-rank is that it falls apart too easily against offensive teams which are very prominent in this meta. it's too pressured to set up sword dance/substitute or to be able to use wish with relative ease.
  22. Elegy96

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    Just going to share my two cents here.

    • Probopass for A tier. He has all the moves and STATS he needs to succeed. Sure, he has some awful weaknesses but his utility and diversity alone make him a possible A tier. He can set up Stealth Rocks, lead with Sturdy, be a decent offensive threat with Sp.Atk investment while also being stupidly bulky, provide momentum with Volt Switch etc etc etc
    • Emolga for C tier. He's a pretty good scout with access to U-Turn and Volt Switch, can hit decently hard (especially after boosts), can paralyze, and be a general pain in the ass. His immunities to both Ground and Electric are rather handy too. It's fraility and lack of power stop it from rising higher, in my opinion, but he's certainly much better than E tier.
    • Illumise for D tier. She's essentially a weaker Volbeat, and I wouldn't use her over her male counterpart, but she's still a good supporter.
    • Mothim for D tier. The Gen 4 Quiver Dancer hits pretty hard but is too slow and frail to be as high as the likes of Butterfree and Masquerain.
  23. IceSpade

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    I have some nominations.

    Shelgon for B-Rank.

    Shelgon has almost the same bulk as Tangela but better typing, has the ability to sweep with DD or support with Wish, and only one weakness to Ice. (Dragon moves are rare in NU). Should be at least the same tier as Tangela.

    Scraggy for B rank.

    Scraggy is one of the most underrated threats in the tier. As a Fighting type, he excels as being able to threaten Ghost and Psychic types, something other Fighting types can't do. As a Dark type, he has good bulk and typing to survive common attacks of Psychic types such as Signal Beam. It has some faults that make it a top threat, but at least it is better and more useful than the other C Pokemon.

    Grumpig for C rank.

    Although it faces competition with other Psychic types, having Thick Fat, Thunder Wave, the ability to paralyze and phaze makes it have a decent niche in the tier. It has the ability to wall special threats such as Charizard, and some physical ones such as Emboar and Gurdurr.
  24. citro

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    Have you even used Lickilicky? You cannot argue that it's not a good special wall. I'm not sure what you mean by him 'not being able' to use Wish + Protect. Obviously Wish passing is pretty hard in this meta because it's so offensive, but honestly he's one of the most reliable sponges in the game and can switch in on a lot of things, including Rotom's Thunderbolt, SpecsTaria's Draco Meteor, Samurott's Hydro Pump etc, slowly heal himself back to full, and then get off a Wish pass to a hurt teammate.
    Okay no. I can agree that Regenerator is a pretty good niche, but Lickilicky is in no way outclassed. Firstly, Lickilicky has better defensive stats on both sides of the spectrum ( 110 / 95 / 95 compared to Audino's 103 / 86 / 86 ) that make it much easier to wall stuff - for example, a Lickilicky can stall out a Ludicolo's rain with the combination of Wish, Protect and Leftovers while an Audino is hard pressed to take repeated hits. Furthermore, Audino actually IS huge set up bait, as the only way it can deal damage is Toxic, whereas Lickilicky can spread paralysis or cause switches all off its reasonable 85 base attack.

    You seem to have completely missed the point of using Lickilicky. Regice has no reliable form of recovery, forcing it to use rest talk. It can't pass wishes; it can't use Heal Bell; it can't phaze. Its typing opens it up to quite a few special attackers such as Charizard that it would otherwise wall. Regice may have the better numerical stats for plain walling, but when you consider all of Lickilicky's other perks you can't really say they outclass each other.

    If you're talking about Substitute + Disable Haunter, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Obviously a pokemon that only runs one attack is going to get beaten by it. This is exactly the same with a large amount of other walls in the tier, including Amoonguss, Regirock, Alomomola and Miltank. Ironically this is where the setup stops, as Lickilicky can hit most other setup sweepers with Dragon Tail and phaze away their boosts. I know this isn't the case for all of them ( opposing Sub + SD Lickilicky, for example ) but we're not asking him to beat things specifically designed to set up on him are we?
    Are you trying to say Lickilicky... doesn't wall the only type it's weak to? :o surprising as that may be, it's actually not that hard to fit a Musharna or some other Fighting check on your team. Not to mention you can scout a CBer's move with Protect and go to the appropriate resist. Really this is no way to base an argument against him.

    My post was directed at your criticism of the defensive set, ium covered the Sub + SD set pretty well and I'm not sure Lickilicky deserves to get moved down, I'd like to hear other people's thoughts though.
  25. Manveru123

    Manveru123

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2012
    Messages:
    204
    Pokemon with Sap Sipper are often included in teams JUST because of Amoongus. It's not only a good tank, but having access to a 100% accurate sleep move can be game-breaking. Physically defensive sets are more common, but a specially defensive Amoongus is one of the few reliable answers to Ludicolo (Ice Beam is 3HKO after lefties, Sludge Bomb is 2HKO), while still providing all the utility.
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