Supporting Gurdurr for the A ranks. Even though it does feel some pressure from top mons, it still has plenty of features that make it a top threat. Eviolite turns Gurdurr into a physical tank and even lets it take some special hits. Drain punch gives it a form of recovery, and Guts turns status into a positive thing, which makes walling/stalling Gurdurr harder. Mach punch is great priority, and knock off is amazing coverage. These features seem to outshine Gurdurr's flaws and justify it for A-/A.
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Resource XY NU Viability Ranking
- Thread starter jake
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Frogadier should move up to C (probably C- for now)
Frogadier distinguishes itself from other water types thanks to Protean, powering up its coverage moves significantly. This makes its deceptively average 83 SAtk quite strong with a Life Orb. However, its bulk is awful, only allowing it to take resisted hits occasionally and its 97 Speed, while pretty fast, is often not enough for this offensive tier.
Frogadier has two viable sets from what I've seen: Life Orb and Choice Scarf. I was skeptical about Choice Scarf and thought that it would be too weak to work out, but after playing some games and doing some calcs, it was surprisingly good (but still weakish).
Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]/Dark Pulse
- Substitute/U-turn/Dark Pulse/Taunt
The Life Orb set is a really strong wallbreaker that plays differently from fellow wallbreaker Samurott despite having similar coverage. Frogadier's coverage moves are much stronger than Sam's are (252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 247-291 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery; 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 307-367 (86.7 - 103.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) and it is also faster, giving it an edge against more threats like Magmortar, Xatu and Seismitoad. However, unlike Samurott, it can't take a hit, especially on this set with Life Orb and possible Substitute damage. Substitute uses Frogadier's ability to force switches to compensate for its lowered speed and makes prediction easier if it wants to hit Typhlosion, Archeops or Pyroar on the switch. U-turn provides momentum, but it is hard to find opportunities to use it sometimes when so many Pokemon in the tier outspeed it. Taunt has similar problems.
This set is good to use on Sticky Web teams, but the problem with Sticky Web is that it requires so much support: you must have your Web setter (Leavanny, Kricketune, Ariados), a spinblocker (the only good one being Spiritomb), a Defog/Sticky Web deterrent (Pawniard), and a spinner with Stealth Rock (Sandslash/Armaldo), leaving only one free spot for an extra teammate other than Frogadier.
Frogadier @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
EVs: 16 Atk / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- U-turn/Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power [Grass]/Grass Knot/Dark Pulse
Choice Scarf Frogadier is able to keep up with the rest of the metagame, like non-Scarf Typhlosion, Pyroar, Archeops, Scyther, and slower Scarfers among others, but it loses its wallbreaking prowess. It is on the weak side, but with some hazard support, it KOs what it needs to and is capable of cleaning. This set can use U-turn much better than Life orb Frog can and Dark Pulse is also better since it is a spammable move that Frogadier can use and Grass Knot/HP Grass doesn't do enough at all to Lanturn without a Life Orb (though it is nice for Seismitoad and can help to revenge kill Feraligatr).
The C rank description fits Frogadier quite well: it is a really effective wallbreaker or revenge killer, but it needs a substantial amount of hazard support and support from Scarfers and other fast Pokemon for the Life Orb set and great wallbreakers for the Choice Scarf set, as well as Pokemon that can take hits for it. It also faces competition from Samurott, who it outspeeds and has stronger coverage than, but Samurott can go mixed without any problems, has enough bulk to stay in on faster threats and can afford to carry priority with Aqua Jet, while Frogadier has the weak Quick Attack which should never be used on it. C- rank fits it well.
EDIT: I can't read. It could be C+, but C fits it well.
Frogadier distinguishes itself from other water types thanks to Protean, powering up its coverage moves significantly. This makes its deceptively average 83 SAtk quite strong with a Life Orb. However, its bulk is awful, only allowing it to take resisted hits occasionally and its 97 Speed, while pretty fast, is often not enough for this offensive tier.
Frogadier has two viable sets from what I've seen: Life Orb and Choice Scarf. I was skeptical about Choice Scarf and thought that it would be too weak to work out, but after playing some games and doing some calcs, it was surprisingly good (but still weakish).
Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]/Dark Pulse
- Substitute/U-turn/Dark Pulse/Taunt
The Life Orb set is a really strong wallbreaker that plays differently from fellow wallbreaker Samurott despite having similar coverage. Frogadier's coverage moves are much stronger than Sam's are (252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 247-291 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery; 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 307-367 (86.7 - 103.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) and it is also faster, giving it an edge against more threats like Magmortar, Xatu and Seismitoad. However, unlike Samurott, it can't take a hit, especially on this set with Life Orb and possible Substitute damage. Substitute uses Frogadier's ability to force switches to compensate for its lowered speed and makes prediction easier if it wants to hit Typhlosion, Archeops or Pyroar on the switch. U-turn provides momentum, but it is hard to find opportunities to use it sometimes when so many Pokemon in the tier outspeed it. Taunt has similar problems.
This set is good to use on Sticky Web teams, but the problem with Sticky Web is that it requires so much support: you must have your Web setter (Leavanny, Kricketune, Ariados), a spinblocker (the only good one being Spiritomb), a Defog/Sticky Web deterrent (Pawniard), and a spinner with Stealth Rock (Sandslash/Armaldo), leaving only one free spot for an extra teammate other than Frogadier.
Frogadier @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
EVs: 16 Atk / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- U-turn/Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power [Grass]/Grass Knot/Dark Pulse
Choice Scarf Frogadier is able to keep up with the rest of the metagame, like non-Scarf Typhlosion, Pyroar, Archeops, Scyther, and slower Scarfers among others, but it loses its wallbreaking prowess. It is on the weak side, but with some hazard support, it KOs what it needs to and is capable of cleaning. This set can use U-turn much better than Life orb Frog can and Dark Pulse is also better since it is a spammable move that Frogadier can use and Grass Knot/HP Grass doesn't do enough at all to Lanturn without a Life Orb (though it is nice for Seismitoad and can help to revenge kill Feraligatr).
The C rank description fits Frogadier quite well: it is a really effective wallbreaker or revenge killer, but it needs a substantial amount of hazard support and support from Scarfers and other fast Pokemon for the Life Orb set and great wallbreakers for the Choice Scarf set, as well as Pokemon that can take hits for it. It also faces competition from Samurott, who it outspeeds and has stronger coverage than, but Samurott can go mixed without any problems, has enough bulk to stay in on faster threats and can afford to carry priority with Aqua Jet, while Frogadier has the weak Quick Attack which should never be used on it. C- rank fits it well.
EDIT: I can't read. It could be C+, but C fits it well.
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Gurdurr seems to be kept in solid check as it is pressured by the large amount of Psychics, Poisons, and Fairies in the tier. The Psychics have the easiest time KOing Gurdurr (with Psychic) while resisting Mach Punch, while the Poisons and Fairies comfortably wall Gurdurr even through its boosts. If Gurdurr tries to opt for coverage against them, it would most likely have to lose out on Bulk Up, which is primarily what makes it dangerous in the first place. If Gurdurr tries to go the unpredictable route, it loses the use of its most effective set. Oh, and special attacks hurt Gurdurr pretty badly in general, which the tier has plenty of. A- is the highest I can see Gurdurr (in fact, that was the rank where it was prior to its current B+ Rank), but I don't object to it simply staying in B+. More or less what Zeb settled on.
Gregingston The problem with Meganium is that other more specialized Grass-types (or Pokemon in general) can do what it does more effectively. Serperior and Meowstic do Dual Screens better since they have Taunt and Prankster, respectively. It also faces pretty stiff competition with the likes of Vileplume and Ferroseed that have important defensive typings that are more suited for the meta (Fighting and Fairy resistance; non Ice/Flying weak). Grassy Terrain isn't even a thing. Meganium is likely the best choice as a specially defensive pure Grass-type supporter, but the demand for that niche is so small that Meganium just doesn't see much use.
Marxman So Zeb would like to see Dragalge move up, while you want to see Dragalge move down. While you actually gave a reason as to why you feel so (silly Zeb), I'm not sure I agree with your reason. Dragalge saw use even before Combusken as a good 'general elemental' resist that fits on offense, or as a good defensive stall Pokemon. It was one of the premier Toxic Spikes setters in the tier as well, and can easily deal with most Poison-types standing in its way, one way or another. The Specs set is also pretty difficult to switch into, since i has all the coverage it needs in just 3 attacks. That said, Dragalge's weaknesses, low speed, and lack of reliable recovery do not give me a strong opinion on Dragalge as a whole, so I don't think I agree with moving it up, but it shouldn't drop either.
Accelgor shouldn't be A, but it can stay where it is in A- for now. Accelgor's main strength is that it seizes the early game advantage and can prevent/limit its foe from doing the same. You can't set up alongside it without the risk of Encore (unless you have priority), which forces you out and allows Accelgor more layers of Spikes. Trying to get rid of its hazards won't work either, since Accelgor can simply kamikaze itself before you can do so, and send in a teammate which threatens said hazard remover and further delays your hazard removal. Offensive sets don't have great revenging potential, but access to Spikes, Encore, or Final Gambit allow it to contribute even when it isn't KOing stuff directly. Accelgor's problem is its fraility, meaning it must often choose between limited layers of Spikes or focus on disruption/offense.
Gregingston The problem with Meganium is that other more specialized Grass-types (or Pokemon in general) can do what it does more effectively. Serperior and Meowstic do Dual Screens better since they have Taunt and Prankster, respectively. It also faces pretty stiff competition with the likes of Vileplume and Ferroseed that have important defensive typings that are more suited for the meta (Fighting and Fairy resistance; non Ice/Flying weak). Grassy Terrain isn't even a thing. Meganium is likely the best choice as a specially defensive pure Grass-type supporter, but the demand for that niche is so small that Meganium just doesn't see much use.
Marxman So Zeb would like to see Dragalge move up, while you want to see Dragalge move down. While you actually gave a reason as to why you feel so (silly Zeb), I'm not sure I agree with your reason. Dragalge saw use even before Combusken as a good 'general elemental' resist that fits on offense, or as a good defensive stall Pokemon. It was one of the premier Toxic Spikes setters in the tier as well, and can easily deal with most Poison-types standing in its way, one way or another. The Specs set is also pretty difficult to switch into, since i has all the coverage it needs in just 3 attacks. That said, Dragalge's weaknesses, low speed, and lack of reliable recovery do not give me a strong opinion on Dragalge as a whole, so I don't think I agree with moving it up, but it shouldn't drop either.
Accelgor shouldn't be A, but it can stay where it is in A- for now. Accelgor's main strength is that it seizes the early game advantage and can prevent/limit its foe from doing the same. You can't set up alongside it without the risk of Encore (unless you have priority), which forces you out and allows Accelgor more layers of Spikes. Trying to get rid of its hazards won't work either, since Accelgor can simply kamikaze itself before you can do so, and send in a teammate which threatens said hazard remover and further delays your hazard removal. Offensive sets don't have great revenging potential, but access to Spikes, Encore, or Final Gambit allow it to contribute even when it isn't KOing stuff directly. Accelgor's problem is its fraility, meaning it must often choose between limited layers of Spikes or focus on disruption/offense.
I use a Specs Wiggly on one of my teams and while my team function pretty well I've noticed that Wiggli is certainly the less indispensable mon on my team. It can take one or two hits specially if resisted and strike back with his few coverage moves (Ice Beam, T-Bolt, Flamethrower, F.Blast, Shadow ball, Psychic and Grass Knot+ 2 STABS) and the competitive boost vs defog is good too but most of the time it ends up being the mon I sacrifice to bring in safely Gatr or bigger threats.
I think D rank is a bit harsh since it can still function properly without too much support. Here are some calcs to show what he can do to unprepared teams :
252+ SpA Choice Specs Wigglytuff Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 152-180 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Dragalge Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wigglytuff: 324-384 (66.9 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While Dragalge is a certain 2HKO Wiggli outspeeds and has a big chance of 2HKO one of his biggest checks Id say.
It can also kill many other mons on the switch with the others not even 1HKOing :
252+ SpA Choice Specs Wigglytuff Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 264-312 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
28 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wigglytuff: 372-440 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Wigglytuff Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Archeops: 380-448 (130.5 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Wigglytuff: 355-418 (73.3 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Those are calculations without the competitive boost, as I said unprepared teams will not be swept by Wiggly due to his piss-poor speed but it can dent many threats that underestimate it.
Frogadier is currently C Rank. Seeing him drop any lower would actually make me laugh. If it should be moved anywhere its up (considering Quilladin is currently C+ when it's subpar at best).
Frogadier actually has one niche over Omastar as well: HP Fire, allowing Frogadier to OHKO Ferroseed 87% of the time.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 286-343 (97.9 - 117.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Yeah, I realize that it can't take a hit for shit, but it's certainly good enough for C+.
Oh, I thought it was in D lol. That's what I get for not looking. I think C is good for it, but C+ would be fine (I don't think it should go any higher than that though.
Personally, it belongs in C. C+ is just pushing it too much. It doesn't particularly hit hard in general and it can't do the complete mindgames like Greninja does in OU. Also, being weak to basically any priority (with none being super effective) and its water typing is lackluster because it doesn't have the potential to break through dedicated special walls; namely Lickilicky, Audino and Cryogonal (might I add, can OHKO with Freeze-Dry). It does have a decent speed tier to make some impact, but it lacks the power to make any difference. The only thing it could possibly do well is sweep late-game and supply Toxic Spikes (rip spikes) -- but with Dragalge and Vileplume rampant everywhere, Toxic Spikes aren't great unless you rid them first. 83 Base Special Attack is lackluster even with Protean, and its frailty doesn't help its case at all. Anything that outspeeds its 97 speed destroys it completely.
It's completely outclassed by Kadabra and Haunter, who are quicker, somewhat more powerful and have more niches in the tier. Kadabra has Magic Guard (basically 2nd best ability (hi Shedinja)) and Haunter gets moves such as Trick, Destiny Bond and reliable STABs which provide neat coverage.
Not completely, as neither of those two get access to STAB Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Grass Knot. STAB Life Orb Hydro Pump coming off of Frogadier hurts. Also, that second part is actually kinda hilariously wrong. Claiming that Magic guard and wonder guard (lol, really?) are the best abilities in the game (or were you only talking about NU, you didn't really clarify) is quite the bold statement if I ever saw one, and I'm sure there are a few people, including myself, that disagree.
On a completely unrelated matter, Greninja isn't really used in OU for "mind-games", its used for revenge killing/wall-breaking. The "mind-games" are really just a bonus... :P
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I remember wanting to use Wigglytuff once as a Shiftry check because I believed it had enough special bulk to tank Leaf Storm just fine while also resisting Knock Off, but its bulk is actually pretty ass. 140 HP is tremendous, but when it's backed up by 45/50 defenses, it really isn't very good at taking hits at all. Exceptionally high HP is much less valuable than exceptionally high defenses in nearly every case. Some good examples of this are Ferrothorn and Cofagrigus, which have decent to mediocre base HP backed up by great defenses. Wigglytuff even has semi-reliable recovery with Wish over these two, which rely on Leech Seed and either Pain Split or just nothing, respectively. Comparing a D-rank NU Pokemon over two great Pokemon seems unfair, but aside from their better typing and support options, they are still much bulkier than Wigglytuff, which illustrates my point.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wigglytuff: 211-249 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 102-121 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
But based solely on its offensive capabilities with decent Special Attack, great STABs and coverage, and a rare and powerful ability, Wigglytuff still deserves its spot in D-rank.
Frogadier is also fine where it is. It's a solid offensive Pokemon with better Speed than most offensive Water-types in NU and a fantastic ability for its job.
But I feel that we should be focusing on the positions of our higher ranked Pokemon more than things in C- and D-rank, unless those things deserve a considerably higher positioning on the rankings. We have a decent amount of work left to do in securing our higher rankings right now, and that should be our priority.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wigglytuff: 211-249 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 102-121 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
But based solely on its offensive capabilities with decent Special Attack, great STABs and coverage, and a rare and powerful ability, Wigglytuff still deserves its spot in D-rank.
Frogadier is also fine where it is. It's a solid offensive Pokemon with better Speed than most offensive Water-types in NU and a fantastic ability for its job.
But I feel that we should be focusing on the positions of our higher ranked Pokemon more than things in C- and D-rank, unless those things deserve a considerably higher positioning on the rankings. We have a decent amount of work left to do in securing our higher rankings right now, and that should be our priority.
Look, I see where you're coming from, but what you're saying is wrong. Oh, so wrong. Protean is an amazing ability (I never said it didn't), but the two abilities of the other two pokemon and their stat distributions are what make it powerful in the tier. The fact that Kadabra can run a sash set without having to worry about status and that Haunter can absorb the Ground Type moves aimed at other pokes and then revenge kill it the situation permits. The fact is that regardless of what set it is running or with Protean, it can't hit hard AT all.
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 138-164 (33.6 - 40%) -- 26.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 130-153 (30.6 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 82-97 (24.5 - 29%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Grumpig: 125-148 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- 49.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 234-276 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It just can't break NU's best special walls. Plus, all of these pokes can OHKO (after LO) it securely (resist or not) due to its extreme frailty.
EDIT: Just while playing PS:
The opposing Frogadier used Ice Beam!
The opposing Frogadier's Protean made it the Ice type!
It's super effective! Sceptile lost 89.4% of its health!
...i cant
EDIT2: What Hollywood said.
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I think we could definitely move Swellow to B+/A-. Reason being is that with Guts, along with its amazing speed tier, Facade can sweep through anything not resisting it. Ghosts types arent much of a problem either, because of brave bird. Not to mention its Specs Scrappy set can also tear through stuff without having to rely on being burned. It is pretty frail and hazard removal is pretty mandatory, but it doesnt mind spikes, is a pretty versatile wallbreaker, and a great mon for any team imo.
It does get nice coverage with its two STABs; but, it gets completely walled by steels, ESPECIALLY Probopass, who 4x resists the STABs. It belongs in B+ for its amazing wallbreaking potential and speed, but its coverage is the reason why it's there. Sure, it can U-turn out from a Probopass or Steelix, you might give them a turn to set up SR, reducing Swellow's longetivity. It never survives for long anyway. But, the reason why Swellow is B+ and something like Zangoose is A- is because Zangoose has coverage in the form of Close Combat and Knock Off. Also, Zangoose is rather fast as-is anyway, so...
The specs set is lackluster and even Chatot outclasses it as a Boomburst user (better special attack AND NP to boost it). Sure, Scrappy is an amazing ability, but that's why Exploud is RU. It's just got better offensive presence with the move. 50 base Special Attack is just horrid.
Therefore, I think it should stay in B+.
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Just a nitpick, but Swellow and Zangoose are both currently in B rank.
stepping away from the frogadier discussion a bit (it's not moving as of now)...
i updated the OP with everything from the last update post here, as well as swanna from c ==> b- and omastar from b+ ==> a+. if you disagree with any of these (and i know some people put up some points that they aren't quite solid on these yet), please let me know and debate them. i think the list is looking a lot better than it did before weight-wise, and moving more pokemon up will reflect the tier more accurately since we've been really reluctant to do so lately.
other potential changes imo: samurott to a+? uxie to a? pyroar to a? audino to a-?
we'll move onto b after this :)
i updated the OP with everything from the last update post here, as well as swanna from c ==> b- and omastar from b+ ==> a+. if you disagree with any of these (and i know some people put up some points that they aren't quite solid on these yet), please let me know and debate them. i think the list is looking a lot better than it did before weight-wise, and moving more pokemon up will reflect the tier more accurately since we've been really reluctant to do so lately.
other potential changes imo: samurott to a+? uxie to a? pyroar to a? audino to a-?
we'll move onto b after this :)
I agree with moving all of those to the places suggested except for maybe Samurott.
Uxie: extremely versatile in the support it can provide to teams, not to mention Dual Screens + memento can destroy teams.
Pyroar: powerful fire type with dual stabs in normal, not the best coverage but between the two it hits really hard. Also Hyper voice is quite good for hitting mons behind subs.
Audino: Great wish passer, has regenerator to benefit it in doing that, has some major flaws from keeping it from going any higher than A- imo, chief among those is that it has no offensive presence. I think Lickylicky can move up as well to B+ as it is quite a good wish passer and has a lot more offensive presence than Audino, only problem is it doesnt have regenerator, but being immune to taunt can be much better in certain circumstances.
Samurot: I think A might be the best place to put sammy now, the main reason I feel like to use him over gatr is a special set and a move up to A+ seems like to much for me. If enough of an argument is made for A+ I could change my mind.
Uxie: extremely versatile in the support it can provide to teams, not to mention Dual Screens + memento can destroy teams.
Pyroar: powerful fire type with dual stabs in normal, not the best coverage but between the two it hits really hard. Also Hyper voice is quite good for hitting mons behind subs.
Audino: Great wish passer, has regenerator to benefit it in doing that, has some major flaws from keeping it from going any higher than A- imo, chief among those is that it has no offensive presence. I think Lickylicky can move up as well to B+ as it is quite a good wish passer and has a lot more offensive presence than Audino, only problem is it doesnt have regenerator, but being immune to taunt can be much better in certain circumstances.
Samurot: I think A might be the best place to put sammy now, the main reason I feel like to use him over gatr is a special set and a move up to A+ seems like to much for me. If enough of an argument is made for A+ I could change my mind.
Speaking of Wisher and support, i'd like to nominate Lickilicky for B/B+
Honestly, appart from Regenerator which is a high enough niche that Audino has over Lickilicky to " outclass " it, what Audino gets that Lickilicky doesn't get?
I would say, Lickilicky can really work on Balanced Team, it has overall more bulk than Audino ( 110/95/95 ) and a very nice ability, Oblivious, that makes it Untauntable.
Also, Lickilicky gets the handy Dragon Tail, which makes it very reliable with Hazard Setters such as Omastar, Crustle, or Accelgor.
Now to the biggest thing Lickilicky has over Audino, it's his versatility.
While Audino will always act as a support, Lickilicky is able to pull out an effective Sword Dances Set, or even Banded set.
This is mainly due to very well distributed stats, and a very extensive movepool, with Things like Power Whip, Elementals Punches, Earthquake, and the Almighty Explosion.
There's even more options, but these others one are less viables.
The fact that Lickilicky can be played effectively as a defensive and offensive threat makes me think it should go higher.
I also agree with Uxie being higher, it has the best support movepool in NU, but also the greatest bulk. This simply makes it addable in almost every team.
Honestly, appart from Regenerator which is a high enough niche that Audino has over Lickilicky to " outclass " it, what Audino gets that Lickilicky doesn't get?
I would say, Lickilicky can really work on Balanced Team, it has overall more bulk than Audino ( 110/95/95 ) and a very nice ability, Oblivious, that makes it Untauntable.
Also, Lickilicky gets the handy Dragon Tail, which makes it very reliable with Hazard Setters such as Omastar, Crustle, or Accelgor.
Now to the biggest thing Lickilicky has over Audino, it's his versatility.
While Audino will always act as a support, Lickilicky is able to pull out an effective Sword Dances Set, or even Banded set.
This is mainly due to very well distributed stats, and a very extensive movepool, with Things like Power Whip, Elementals Punches, Earthquake, and the Almighty Explosion.
There's even more options, but these others one are less viables.
The fact that Lickilicky can be played effectively as a defensive and offensive threat makes me think it should go higher.
I also agree with Uxie being higher, it has the best support movepool in NU, but also the greatest bulk. This simply makes it addable in almost every team.
I also think Kangaskhan can be pushed up to A rank. Fantastic mon right now with a couple of different sets floating around, has really good coverage not to mention +1 frustration hurts. Power-up punch to boost and Drain punch to get health back. Also does double priority incredibly well. If you dont want to run fighting moves silk scarf double edge does a ridiculous amount of damage. Since we are moving things around and A- is a little heavy I could see kanga moving up.
I think that Klinklang should be moved up to B+. It sets up on half of the defensive pokes in the tier, has an incredible boosting move and a great defensive typing. The only thing holding it back is a lack of coverage and Steel + Normal isn't even too bad neutrally. The Sub set can sub on Vile lacking HP fire, Audino, Lickilicky, Ferroseed, and Dragalge lacking Focus Blast, and Cryogonal w/o HP ground. It's steel typing also lets it be a soft check to CM puff as well as a stop to BD puff. That alone warrants it higher than B imo.
I definitely agree with Audino going up to A-, it's basically the mon that holds stall together in NU. It is the best wish passer in the tier bar none, only facing competition from Slurpuff with that handy fighting resist and Lickilicky. It can work well as a pivot on balanced teams, but stall is where it really shines. It can free up a moveslot if you have a different cleric on your team (like Granbull, which has amazing synergy with Audino), so it has space for Knock Off to beat Mismagius (a mon that spells huge trouble for stall, just don't use it over Double Edge but rather alongside it pls :x) or Encore to catch things like Feraligatr with their pants down.
There is also the super amazing Calm Mind set
So yea, Audino to A- for sure.
Uxie to A is something I can definitely get behind, it is super versatile, one of the best support mons in the tier with plain SR/Twave/Heal Bell/whatever set, Dual Screens, Weather, TrickScarf (really underexplored in the meta, I've only ever seen Nozzle use it but it looks fun) and SubCM does huge work against stall kind of teams. Basically no other mon can provide the kind of support Uxie does as well as Uxie. Definitely an A.
Samurott can stay in A, it only really has one set, as Feraligatr pretty much eclipses it as an SD sweeper. It can still beat a lot of the top mons, but A+ is stretching it atm.
I'm not so sure about Pyroar, it is very reliant on Choice items, in the same way Sawk is and therefore pretty easy to play around, not to mention super vulnerable to priority. Its coverage is also lacking and I've found it pretty underwhelming overall.
So yea, Audino to A- for sure.
Uxie to A is something I can definitely get behind, it is super versatile, one of the best support mons in the tier with plain SR/Twave/Heal Bell/whatever set, Dual Screens, Weather, TrickScarf (really underexplored in the meta, I've only ever seen Nozzle use it but it looks fun) and SubCM does huge work against stall kind of teams. Basically no other mon can provide the kind of support Uxie does as well as Uxie. Definitely an A.
Samurott can stay in A, it only really has one set, as Feraligatr pretty much eclipses it as an SD sweeper. It can still beat a lot of the top mons, but A+ is stretching it atm.
I'm not so sure about Pyroar, it is very reliant on Choice items, in the same way Sawk is and therefore pretty easy to play around, not to mention super vulnerable to priority. Its coverage is also lacking and I've found it pretty underwhelming overall.
I disagree with these two. In no way does Samurott only have one set. Mixed LO is the best set it has in NU, while it also has Sub + 3 Attacks and Assault Vest Tank, the former being a great wallbreaker and good at forcing switches and the second being a great offensive check to NU's fire types and a good pivot and phazer. Possessing Knock Off is extremely useful for it since it cripples everything in the tier and its wide movepool allows it to nab threats like Seismitoad, Vileplume, Feraligatr, Xatu and Uxie on the switch. I think it's fine in A, but A+ is certainly within reach.
Pyroar is one of the most influential Pokemon in the tier: the fastest viable Scarfer, a great user of Life Orb and Specs (so it's not too reliant on Choice items), and has a unique typing that resists Mismagius' Ghost + Fairy coverage. Scarf Pyroar pretty much outspeeds everything and does not lack in power, making it a great revenge killer, even for things like +1 Feraligatr. Life Orb can switch up moves freely and carry Taunt or even Will-o-Wisp to punish the Dragalgae or Samurott switch-in and Specs is great at breaking walls as long as Dragalgae isn't around. Definitely deserves to move up IMO.
Walls of text; blue means chain text, red means verdict.
Samurott I feel isn't quite ready for A+. It's not that it has gotten any less dangerous, but rather the tier feels it is more prepared for Samurott, even factoring its infamously dangerous unpredictability which made it S last Gen. The tier now has a greater abundance of faster mons that can revenge Samurott, such as Sceptile, Lilligant, Electivire, Rotom, and even Freeze Dry Cryogonal, while the power creep makes special Samurott's comparatively sluggish speed that much more notable. Newcomers Ferroseed and Lanturn aren't making things easier. As for SD Samurott, which can at least bypass its bad speed with Aqua Jet, it faces heavy competition with Feraligatr, which is statistically superior for a boosting physical set, has more effective coverage for the meta in Ice Punch (hits Plume and Dragalge), and even pulls off a Dragon Dance set which can afford more coverage. Toss in the fact that most teams that can stop SD Gatr can also stop SD Samurott, and suddenly Samurott's unpredictability factor isn't as punishing/unforgiving as it was before.
Uxie is one of the best utility mons in the tier, bar none. It is really bulky and has good speed to accompany it, which are already signs that Uxie makes a fantastic supporter. Access to Stealth Rock, Dual Screens, and Memento lays the red carpet for literally any setup sweeper to get the party started. It can also use its huge bulk to make use of the Yawn + U-turn combo, which also lets the user get the upper hand tremendously easily while putting the opponent in a very tight spot. It can even make use of its speed to outspeed things Mesprit cannot, most notably Sawk. The speed and bulk difference that Uxie has over Mesprit is especially relevant when it comes to a Sub + Calm Mind set, where Uxie's stat distribution makes it undoubtedly the better user, or even arguably the best SubCM user in the whole tier. It isn't offensively strong, It's a threat whether it be supporting its teammates or going on the offensive, it is definitely worthy of A Rank.
As far as defensive mons go, Audino seems to almost be a step up from its stalling brethren. Wish + Regenerator is an obvious match made in heaven, allowing Audino to heal its teammates while almost never worrying about its own health. Heal Bell is further icing on that cake, since it means Audino is hard to wear down with both damage and status, as well as amping up its supporting capabilties. While Normal typing is usually mediocre from a defensive standpoint (ask Miltank) since it lacks resistances, Audino's stubbornness to get worn down means that most teams need to target its sole Fighting weakness if they want to bring Audino down for good, and it is usually extremely easy to see coming, allowing Audino to act accordingly. Encore ensures that trying to overcome the offensively inept Audino with boosts won't be a cakewalk. While it is possible to turn Audino into a liability, it is damn near impossible to stop it from doing its job. A strong candidate for A-.
Pyroar is not at all reliant on Choice items; in fact that is the biggest reason it is above Typhlosion, who practically needs Choice items to even function properly. Pyroar is far less concerned about its health unlike Typh, and can even make use of it with Endeavor. It has dual STABs, meaning it doesn't need to use weak coverage moves most of the time if one of its STABs is resisted, since it can simply use the other STAB and continue dishing out good damage (again, unlike Typhlosion). The only mons that resist both of Pyroar's STABs can easily be covered by the 1 or 2 free moveslots Pyroar still has, usually in the form of Hidden Power Grass or even Will-o-Wisp (an incredibly useful tool against Sucker Punches). Pyroar is also very fast, and powerful enough to be able to enforce a speed tier. Oh, and Hyper Voice bypasses Subs, which is cool as hell. That said, Pyroar is already A-, which is above Typhlosion as it is. As a mon itself, I think its hazard weakness and general weakness to priority hold it back quite a bit, but Pyoar can be pretty flexible in its use and doesn't feel anywhere near as restrictive to use as other Fire-types in the tier. I won't object to Pyroar being in A Rank.
Samurott I feel isn't quite ready for A+. It's not that it has gotten any less dangerous, but rather the tier feels it is more prepared for Samurott, even factoring its infamously dangerous unpredictability which made it S last Gen. The tier now has a greater abundance of faster mons that can revenge Samurott, such as Sceptile, Lilligant, Electivire, Rotom, and even Freeze Dry Cryogonal, while the power creep makes special Samurott's comparatively sluggish speed that much more notable. Newcomers Ferroseed and Lanturn aren't making things easier. As for SD Samurott, which can at least bypass its bad speed with Aqua Jet, it faces heavy competition with Feraligatr, which is statistically superior for a boosting physical set, has more effective coverage for the meta in Ice Punch (hits Plume and Dragalge), and even pulls off a Dragon Dance set which can afford more coverage. Toss in the fact that most teams that can stop SD Gatr can also stop SD Samurott, and suddenly Samurott's unpredictability factor isn't as punishing/unforgiving as it was before.
Uxie is one of the best utility mons in the tier, bar none. It is really bulky and has good speed to accompany it, which are already signs that Uxie makes a fantastic supporter. Access to Stealth Rock, Dual Screens, and Memento lays the red carpet for literally any setup sweeper to get the party started. It can also use its huge bulk to make use of the Yawn + U-turn combo, which also lets the user get the upper hand tremendously easily while putting the opponent in a very tight spot. It can even make use of its speed to outspeed things Mesprit cannot, most notably Sawk. The speed and bulk difference that Uxie has over Mesprit is especially relevant when it comes to a Sub + Calm Mind set, where Uxie's stat distribution makes it undoubtedly the better user, or even arguably the best SubCM user in the whole tier. It isn't offensively strong, It's a threat whether it be supporting its teammates or going on the offensive, it is definitely worthy of A Rank.
As far as defensive mons go, Audino seems to almost be a step up from its stalling brethren. Wish + Regenerator is an obvious match made in heaven, allowing Audino to heal its teammates while almost never worrying about its own health. Heal Bell is further icing on that cake, since it means Audino is hard to wear down with both damage and status, as well as amping up its supporting capabilties. While Normal typing is usually mediocre from a defensive standpoint (ask Miltank) since it lacks resistances, Audino's stubbornness to get worn down means that most teams need to target its sole Fighting weakness if they want to bring Audino down for good, and it is usually extremely easy to see coming, allowing Audino to act accordingly. Encore ensures that trying to overcome the offensively inept Audino with boosts won't be a cakewalk. While it is possible to turn Audino into a liability, it is damn near impossible to stop it from doing its job. A strong candidate for A-.
Carracosta should be B+ imo. It is way better than Barbaracle thanks to Aqua Jet and Solid Rock, which makes it easier for it to set up. Sure Carracosta is 'slow' and can only outspeed base 95s with an Adamant Nature at +2, but that is all it needs to wreck havoc. If you ever got a good look at the Pokemon over base 95 Speed, you would know that few of them can take a +2 Adamant LO Aqua Jet comfortably. Even Choice Scarfers can fail to revenge kill it:
The only Choice Scarf user that can safely revenge kill it is Jynx thanks to Dry Skin, and Choice Scarf Mesprit which takes around 52-65% from +2 LO Aqua Jet. I can even argue that Carracosta being slow actually make it easier for it to set up as it will most of the time take the hit before using Shell Smash, meaning that it won't get hit when its defenses are at -1. Carracosta can also go Mixed thanks to its decent base 83 SpA to lure Pokemon such as Physically Defensive Seismitoad (with Hidden Power Grass) and Tangela / Gourgeist-Super (with Ice Beam), which Barbaracle can't really do iirc.
Aladyyn I wouldn't say that Swords Dance Samurott is a bad set. Sure it faces competition with Swords Dance Feraligatr, but it has access to some cool coverage options such as Megahorn and Knock Off. It also has Razor Shell, which can be nice with that 50% (?) Defense drop chance. The main thing that I like about Swords Dance Samurott is that I can easily bluff a Special set against my opponent and set up as they bring in their Special Samurott answers, which lets me gain momentum and put the opponent in a bad position :]
Punchshroom what can even stop Feraligatr?
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom: 204-242 (84.29 - 100%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I won't add Scarf Typh/Pyroar, they obliviously die to it lol
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 247-292 (91.14 - 107.74%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
etc
I won't add Scarf Typh/Pyroar, they obliviously die to it lol
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 247-292 (91.14 - 107.74%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
etc
The only Choice Scarf user that can safely revenge kill it is Jynx thanks to Dry Skin, and Choice Scarf Mesprit which takes around 52-65% from +2 LO Aqua Jet. I can even argue that Carracosta being slow actually make it easier for it to set up as it will most of the time take the hit before using Shell Smash, meaning that it won't get hit when its defenses are at -1. Carracosta can also go Mixed thanks to its decent base 83 SpA to lure Pokemon such as Physically Defensive Seismitoad (with Hidden Power Grass) and Tangela / Gourgeist-Super (with Ice Beam), which Barbaracle can't really do iirc.
Aladyyn I wouldn't say that Swords Dance Samurott is a bad set. Sure it faces competition with Swords Dance Feraligatr, but it has access to some cool coverage options such as Megahorn and Knock Off. It also has Razor Shell, which can be nice with that 50% (?) Defense drop chance. The main thing that I like about Swords Dance Samurott is that I can easily bluff a Special set against my opponent and set up as they bring in their Special Samurott answers, which lets me gain momentum and put the opponent in a bad position :]
Punchshroom what can even stop Feraligatr?
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While I agree with Carracosta moving up, I think Barbacle should actually move up with it. While Barbacle can't set up quite as easily, Barbacle's power and coverage options make it hard to stop and it is fairly bulky on the physical side as well if it has its White Herb, so it's not too weak to priority. Cross Chop will OHKO common physical walls like Ferroseed, Miltank and defensive Lickilicky, which Carracosta has trouble breaking through and, even with a pitiful 54 SpA, it has a Tough Claws-boosted Grass Knot to lure and OHKO Seismitoad (though, admittedly, it's not useful against much else). So as a whole:
Barbacle Pros & Cons:
+ Stronger and wider coverage
+ Outspeeds all of the tier at +2
+ Fairly resilient against priority
- No priority
- Minor 4MSS
- Can't break past Vileplume and Gourgeist
Carracosta Pros & Cons:
+ Bulkier/Easier Set up opportunities
+ Easier time going mixed
+ Priority
- Kinda slow
- Reliant on Life Orb
- Can't break through certain physical walls
Carracosta and Barbacle to B+/A-
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/classic.3512898/
somewhere in there is a full explanation of Carracosta > Barbaracle
fullheartedly agree
somewhere in there is a full explanation of Carracosta > Barbaracle
fullheartedly agree
I think Samurott to A+ is a fine nomination. It has pretty much no counters at all, and the best checks get donked by Taunt. It does a huge number to balanced and defensive teams, and all it needs to devastate offense is Sticky Web support. Lanturn is a solid check, but it's not very common. SD is also still a really good set. It's a bit slower and weaker than Feraligatr, but it has Megahorn and Knock Off, which are much better coverage options than what Feraligatr has to offer. SD Samurott also has huge surprise factor, which is huge. You can definitely win a game solely because your opponent sacrifices their best check to SD Samurott, thinking that it's special Life Orb.
I won't cry it stays in A, but I think people are underrating it.
I won't cry it stays in A, but I think people are underrating it.
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