Resource XY NU Viability Ranking

[ryan]

Do you even use Probopass? Your post sounds like pure theorymon. Taunt Probopass does fine vs. Ferroseed, and you shouldn't be using it as a Stealth Rock setter unless you can spare that moveslot. You don't use Toxic for CM Mesprit; you use Volt Switch and bring out something that kills it. The farthest that its "4MSS" goes is:

Volt Switch
Flash Cannon
Earth Power
HP Fire / Taunt / Thunder Wave if you don't care about Ferroseed

It really isn't that hard.

I was originally going to recommend it for B, but looking at the Pokemon in B and B+, it looks more fit for B+ to me.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I think Probopass should be moved to B- at least. Probopass does have 4MSS but as a Steel trapper that also checks a variety of other stuff, it's a very useful role. It really only needs HP Fire and Earth Power to effectively trap most steels, and the remaining slots can be filled with whichever your team desires. Its 4MSS isn't really all that bad. Sure, Probopass cannot check everything at once, but it's still an effective trapper that can also fulfill other roles. Probably the only Steel that it cannot trap is Pawniard, but because Pawniard generally isn't very bulky it isn't too much of a problem. Steelix can be trapped by Air Balloon Probopass and can be weakened by a fair amount.

Something that provides such great support for threatening creatures like Slurpuff and Feraligatr, while potentially being able to gain momentum and/or handle some dangerous opponents, should not be C+.

 

[Aleccat]

But why run taunt if you want to kill Ferroseed .-. He walls it if he's specially defensive. (How did the UU council not ban Magnet Pull o3o) Edit: Not even specially defensive. However, HP Fire is needed if you want to kill ferroseed. Probo for B- imo

 

[Punchshroom]

Do you even use Probopass? Your post sounds like pure theorymon. Taunt Probopass does fine vs. Ferroseed, and you shouldn't be using it as a Stealth Rock setter unless you can spare that moveslot. You don't use Toxic for CM Mesprit; you use Volt Switch and bring out something that kills it. The farthest that its "4MSS" goes is:

Volt Switch
Flash Cannon
Earth Power
HP Fire / Taunt / Thunder Wave if you don't care about Ferroseed

It really isn't that hard.

I was originally going to recommend it for B, but looking at the Pokemon in B and B+, it looks more fit for B+ to me.

The bolded sentence implies that we have very different experiences with Probopass as a whole, and isn't killing Ferroseed one of the main reasons to run Probopass in the first place (or at the very least, not ironically turn your Probo into Spikes fodder)? Judging from your experiences with it, I would compare it with my experiences with Lanturn as a bulky pivot switcher (that is also pretty helpless against Seismitoad), but since Probo counters (ahem, checks, in your case) more relevant threats in S Rank threats Mesprit and Slurpuff, I can see why you would nom it for B+.

scorpdestroyer Probopass also cannot trap Klinklang, since either +1 Gear Grind 2HKOes Probopass or Earth Power fails to 2HKO Klinklang.

I won't argue against C- being too low for Probo, but B+ still seems iffy in my eyes, mainly because of needing teammates to help it check stuff (not much 'easily' kills Mesprit), and having a Rock- or Steel-type that doesn't answer Archeops is quite a bummer. I swear my Probopass rant will be akin to my 'BW NU Carracosta not for S Rank' rant that may have brought down the quality of the thread and may have cost me my badge... eventhoughitturnsoutIwasrightintheend

AV Regirock is viable o3o She also is a pure Grass type, so it depends on what you need. I think D Rank would be nice.

No it is not. Also I would much rather be using other pure Grass-types like Meganium, Serperior, Lilligant, Leafeon, or whatever the fuk Bellossom does that doesn't leave it hopelessly outclassed. Bellossom doesn't do anything to stand out amongst its fellow Grasses.

 

[Pooch13]

Yeah i love Bellosson but other grass mons are way better, Serperior for example has a bigger overall bulk and way better speed+access to knock off and can sub leech seed you besides having glare that can para more mons than T wave (I'd suggest moving it to C- or C rank).

But I wanted to give my two cents on probo too, even though Im still new to this meta i usse a Probo and Ive found out some interesting stuff about it. First of all its very easy to wear it down once you get the lefties knocked off since it doesnt have realiable recovery which makes it an average SpDef wall. As Punch said is more of a utility mon that can set rocks, slowly V switch and trap some specific mons. That being said, not many mons have those specific characteristics in B rank so i think a move up is going to happen but its weaknesses cripple him.

Pairing it up with some other mons like Xatu/Rotom-F+Grabull makes for a great core but its basically building half your team around this thing. Also taunt probo is way too slow to use it properly imo, your opponent if it outspeeds (which is not that hard to do) will at least get rocks or one layer of spikes than switch out (+ the fact that many of the hazards stackers in NU carry ground coverage.

Finally the use of toxic cripples a lot of pokemons on the switch that dont expect it to have toxic but i guess thats more a matter of personal choices so i wont get too much into that.

In conclusion Probopass to B not because he's insanely good but because there's no other mon that can trap ferroseed or bring in other mons safely (besides lanturn who is still weak to ground) and even without recovery it can tank 2 or 3 non SE hits to do its job properly.

 

[Mistrals]

Well, somebody's got to say this, so, Armaldo to D rank

With Kabutops dropping to NU, all of Armaldo's worthwhile sets became almost completely outclassed. Kabutops is a better choice for rain teams, and a better offensive spinner, as well as having STAB aqua jet, near unresisted STAB coverage, a much better speed stat, and better defensive typing with a 4x resistance to fire, and resistances to flying and ice, all of which Armaldo lacks. It also has STAB on water moves in rain, and superpower. There's really not much to say. Kabutops just does what it does much better.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Well, somebody's got to say this, so, Armaldo to D rank

With Kabutops dropping to NU, all of Armaldo's worthwhile sets became almost completely outclassed. Kabutops is a better choice for rain teams, and a better offensive spinner, as well as having STAB aqua jet, near unresisted STAB coverage, a much better speed stat, and better defensive typing with a 4x resistance to fire, and resistances to flying and ice, all of which Armaldo lacks. It also has STAB on water moves in rain, and superpower. There's really not much to say. Kabutops just does what it does much better.

Thing is Armaldo does utilize SR + Rapid Spin much more effectively than Kabutops (does Kabu ever even run both lol?). Armaldo might be weak to Rocks but it has better bulk than Kabutops overall and opposed to what you say, a better defensive typing. Kabutops is weak to Ground, Fighting, Electric and Grass which usually destroy Kabutops due to its frailty. Armaldo is weak to only 3 types being Rock, Steel and Water which together with its better bulk allows it to spin on a lot more things. Kabutops is of course better offensively, but purely as a supporter Armaldo has the edge.

 

[watashi]

armaldo might have less weaknesses, but it only has two resistances compared to kabutop's five so i wouldn't say it has a better defensive typing. you also have to take account of the difference in speed which gives kabutops a lot more chances to spin.

 

[Brawlfest]

armaldo might have less weaknesses, but it only has two resistances compared to kabutop's five so i wouldn't say it has a better defensive typing. you also have to take account of the difference in speed which gives kabutops a lot more chances to spin.

On top of this, Kabutops has much stronger priority and speed meaning that as a spinner it will be less pressured by offensive pokemon, and if you are super desperate it even has access to Foresight, which is a valuable tool for any spinner predicting a switch out to a ghost.

 

[Mistrals]

It's also worth mentioning that one of Armaldo's weaknesses is rock, which isn't a good weakness to have as a spinner.

Armaldo's not a good rock setter anyways. If you're looking for rocks+spin, just use Sandslash. Better physical bulk, better speed, and resistance to rock.

 

[Cased]

Just repeating FLCL here, being weak to Stealth Rock as a spinner is always pretty bad regarding reasoning to use a Spinner, so that has it automatically going against it. And Kabutops does have the ability to run more of a support set with Stealth Rock/Waterfall or Jet/Stone Edge/Rapid Spin, and although Kabutops may have more weaknesses, it does have more resistances and depending on EVs can take a lot more attacks than the usual LO or Lum Kabutops that commonly runs no bulk at all. Armaldo's lack of common and general resistances make it hard to fit on a team because it doesn't offer much synergy unlike Kabutops which with its resistances, is easier to fit on a team.

Armaldo should be D and nothing more considering it is 100% outclassed

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

armaldo might have less weaknesses, but it only has two resistances compared to kabutop's five so i wouldn't say it has a better defensive typing. you also have to take account of the difference in speed which gives kabutops a lot more chances to spin.

Valid argument, but Kabutops doesn't have the bulk to make use out of most of those resistances. Its common weaknesses to Fighting/Ground/Electric/Grass sting a lot because with Kabu's poor bulk that means there's a lot of things you can't spin on without getting oneshotted afterwards. That brings me to your second argument; Kabutops might be getting off more Rapid Spins due to being faster, but he sure as hell won't be coming out of it alive as often as Armaldo. Anyways it's pretty obvious that Kabutops is better than Armaldo, but realistically all they have in common is Rapid Spin; one is a wallbreaker and the other is an offensive tank. Each has their own niche and I definitely wouldn't say Kabutops 100% outclasses Armaldo because Kabu can't utilize SR effectively while also spinning. Armaldo's SR weakness is also mitigated by Lefties, Kabutops is also prone to all entry hazards and with LO they rack up a lot faster... So that point is only relevant to an extent imo.

If anything drop Armaldo to C-, it fits just fine there... It's got a decent niche so let us not be too harsh and put it with the likes of Butterfree and Delibird...

 

[Aladyyn]

Valid argument, but Kabutops doesn't have the bulk to make use out of most of those resistances.

That is a good point, but Armaldo faces a similar problem in not having the resistances to make use of its superior bulk. Not to mention a lot of that bulk is taken away in case Armaldo switches into SR even once.

 

[Lavern]

Kabutops can spin more often than Armaldo, because it forces the opponent to switch, so it's still the better spinner.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Kabutops can spin more often than Armaldo, because it forces the opponent to switch, so it's still the better spinner.

Kind of saw that argument coming but:

1. Predictions are 50/50.

2. Kabutops is so frail that losing this 50/50 usually means you die in the process.

3. It's damn obvious that Kabutops is the better spinner, nobody ever said it wasn't.

 

[blaargathon]

Anybody want to tell me why Delibird is ranked? I'm not complaining, I'm just legitimately curious. I thought it was supposed to be complete trubbish, but being listed here means that it isn't completely useless.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Anybody want to tell me why Delibird is ranked? I'm not complaining, I'm just legitimately curious. I thought it was supposed to be complete trubbish, but being listed here means that it isn't completely useless.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/nu-viability-ranking.3509494/page-29#post-5713484

:]

 

[Ares]

Anybody want to tell me why Delibird is ranked? I'm not complaining, I'm just legitimately curious. I thought it was supposed to be complete trubbish, but being listed here means that it isn't completely useless.

Pretty much it's a decent suicide spike lead with spikes, rapid spin, Dbond. Usually gets a layer of spikes and a kill through destiny bond. It's not fantastic but it does have a niche.

 

[ryan]

If I remember correctly, Raichu was originally placed fairly highly during the Sigilyph meta back when teams were generally more offensive and having Pokemon that could outspeed and kill Sigilyph was a huge deal. It's really not as good anymore. It has good coverage for bulkier teams, but it misses lots of OHKOs because of its shitty base 90 Special Attack. Right now, it's in B-, but I think C+ is a bit more fitting. On the topic of low quality Electric-types, Zebstrika is probably better in C- or D. It's so goddamn pitifully weak, and its only niche is against faster offensive teams, where Scarf Rotom and even the aforementioned Raichu would be better options. Another overrated Electric-type is Rotom-F, which definitely has a niche with STAB BoltBeam but is still generally outdone by Rotom and even Rotom-S. C+ seems fine for this guy too.

Drifblim is probably a bit overrated. It could drop to C+. SubLiechi Acrobatics Unburden is cool, and the Sitrus version of AcroBlimp is usable but nothing spectacular.

Mr. Mime should be C+ at best. Offensive sets aren't fast or strong enough to compensate with its terrible bulk, and Screens sets only have Taunt to separate themselves from Uxie and Mesprit.

Leafeon could rise up to B-. It's a great offensive check to Feraligatr, Kabutops, and rain teams in general, and it has Synthesis to act as a good switch into Ground-types in the early game without getting weakened, as well as Baton Pass to give the boosts to something scarier.

Electivire is alright, but Magmortar is much better at breaking balanced and defensive teams. Magmortar doesn't deserve to go to A- in my opinion, so I'd like to see Electivire drop to B.

Ditto can go somewhere around C. It was better in Venomoth meta, but it's pretty inconsistent now. You also have to deal with dicks running Frustration over Return. :(

Bastiodon should probably go down to D. I'd rather use Steelix almost 100% of the time because it also phazes and sets Stealth Rock without being weak as fuck. Wouldn't cry if it stayed in C- though.

I honestly think most everything else that hasn't been covered since the last update is pretty much fine. There's some arguably questionable stuff, but a lot of those things are preferential.

EDIT: OH SHIT I FORGOT CRUSTLE LOL. Probably A-. The face of Spikes offense, but other hazard leads are also quite good, compared to Omastar which was nearly always the best choice.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I've been testing out two mons which in my opinion don't get enough credit in the current rankings.

Relicanth is currently D rank, but quite frankly it's a pretty damn good mon if you use it right. CB Head Smash pretty much gets a kill against offense whenever it comes in, which it can do relatively easy with 100/130/65 defenses and five resistances. Against bulky offense/stall it's pretty much the same story, no safe switchins besides a select few mons (Poliwrath and Ferroseed mainly). Head Smash is just so spammable thanks to Rock Head and its insane base power that even leaves resists crippled for the rest of the match. With proper investment you outspeed every wall in the tier while still being bulky enough to take hits well. In my opinion Relicanth is worthy of C rank.

Then there's Meowstic-M. This mon is extremely valuable on offensive teams because of Dual Screens, which it can setup with ease thanks to Prankster. Dual Screens is a pretty underrated strategy but it certainly makes setting up for a sweep that much easier and generally gives your mons a massive edge over the opponents team. I haven't had a single match where Meowstic-M wasn't extremely useful, also because of another toy it has; Prankster T-Wave. With Swift Swim users becoming more prevalent Meowstic-M has become drastically more useful and viable, as there are literally no sweepers in NU that don't get heavily crippled by T-Wave. For the last slot I prefer Energy Ball for the likes of Seismitoad and Rhydon who would like to absorb T-Wave (and Psychic/Psyshock are too obvious imo). Uxie can also be a Dual Screener, but it lacks Prankster so it can't be an emergency check to sweepers like Meowstic-M can. Everybody knows how Thundurus is one of the best (possibly even the best) mons in OU, and this emergency check factor is one of the reasons that's the case, so you can't deny its usefulness. That's why Meowstic-M is worthy of C+.

 

[jake]

Actual last update was August 21st. I'm not really 8 pages behind, nooo... But a little time away has helped me notice that we have a really big issue with our VR that no other tier seems to have. Let's look at the numbers:

S has 3 Pokemon since August 21st (removing Spiritomb).
A+ has 2 Pokemon since August 21st (removing Omastar).
A has 4 Pokemon since August 21st.
A- has 8 Pokemon since August 21st.
B+ has 14 Pokemon since August 21st.
B has 22 Pokemon since August 21st.
B- has 16 Pokemon since August 21st.
C+ has 19 Pokemon since August 21st.
C has 19 Pokemon since August 21st.
C- has 24 Pokemon since August 21st.
D has 34 Pokemon since August 21st.

S-A ranks average a little over 4 Pokemon per rank (mostly bolstered by A-. If not for A-, the top three would average only 3 Pokemon each).
B rank averages a little over 17 Pokemon per rank.
C rank averages a little under 21 Pokemon per rank.
If split evenly into D+, D, and D-, D rank would average a little over 11 Pokemon per rank.​

Notice anything pretty big here? Any, like, big gaps between ranks? Let's compare to another tier, just for the sake of comparing our VR to another good one.

RU's VR:

Hide

S has 4 Pokemon.
A+ has 7 Pokemon.
A has 8 Pokemon.
A- has 8 Pokemon.
B+ has 11 Pokemon.
B has 12 Pokemon.
B- has 13 Pokemon.
C+ has 16 Pokemon.
C has 14 Pokemon.
C- has 14 Pokemon.
D has 8 Pokemon.

S-A ranks average 6.75 Pokemon (cut S, and it averages a little under 8) per rank.
B rank averages 12 Pokemon per rank.
C rank averages a little under 15 Pokemon per rank.
D rank averages 8 (duh).

RU's Viability Rankings have a consistency to their size that ours lacks, especially towards the top end of the rankings. We are reluctant to say that good Pokemon are good, and we are reluctant to push up or down on most middling Pokemon that sit between B and C+. There is seriously only one way this is going to be fixed in a reasonable manner, and that is to quickly overhaul the location of a number of Pokemon on this list. I have taken into account most suggestions from the last update until now, and I've fixed up a bunch on my own initiative (explanations for any shift will be given if requested).

Basically, a lot of people rely on this list to see what's great in the NU metagame. Not only is this list outdated (my b), but it's also somewhat inaccurate, and that's unfair to new players and old players alike. I expect a lot of mad and debates, but this list feels a lot more concrete than the old ones and I feel it represents our metagame better than it did before. Please comment on your thoughts and opinions about our new list.

Spiritomb has since gone up to RU, so it has been removed.
Omastar has since gone up to RU, so it has been removed.

Ariados from C to C-.
Armaldo from C to D.
Audino from B+ to A.
Cacturne from C to B.
Camerupt from C to C+.
Carracosta from B to B+.
Crustle from B to B+.
Ditto from B to C.
Hariyama from B to A-.
Jynx from B- to B.
Kabutops from unlisted to A.
Klinklang from B to A-.
Kricketune from C+ to B.
Leavanny from C+ to B-.
Lilligant from B to A.
Ludicolo from B to B+.
Meowstic-M from C- to C.
Miltank from C- to C.
Mismagius from A- to A.
Muk from C- to C.
Ninetales from C to B-.
Pawniard from B to B+.
Poliwrath from B to B+.
Probopass from C+ to B.
Pyroar from A- to A+.
Raichu from B- to C+.
Rotom from B+ to A-.
Samurott from A to A+.
Sceptile from B+ to A-.
Shedinja from unlisted to D.
Typhlosion from B+ to A+.
Uxie from A- to A+.
Victreebel from C- to C+.
Vileplume from A- to B+.
Xatu from B to A-.
Yanma from unlisted to D.​

post-changes

S has 3
A+ has 6
A has 7
A- has 9
B+ has 15
B has 17
B- has 16
C+ has 19
C has 18
C- has 21
D has 37

A averages a little over 7 Pokemon (6.25 including S).
B averages 16 Pokemon.
C averages a little over 19 Pokemon.
D averages a little over 12 Pokemon.

 

[jake]

Additionally, I have split D into D+, D, and D-. Here are the initial D rankings. They are a bit haphazard and generally placed; I don't expect them to be perfectly accurate. I would rather debate the other changes before these.

D+

Avalugg
Butterfree
Glaceon
Gogoat
Huntail
Misdreavus
Rampardos
Rapidash
Serperior

D

Delibird
Duosion
Dusclops
Golduck
Hippopotas
Lapras
Lumineon
Politoed
Relicanth
Sliggoo
Throh
Torkoal
Yanma

D-

Armaldo
Electabuzz
Electrode
Furfrou
Gigalith
Hypno
Jumpluff
Lopunny
Metang
Monferno
Noctowl
Octillery
Persian
Wigglytuff

 

[soulgazer]

Talked with zeb on IRC, here's some changes I would like to see

Kangaskhan from A- to A
One of the most reliable revenge killer in the tier, and hits like a truck with Double-edge. It has a good variety of coverage options to hit Steel- and Rock-types, and is also actually quite bulky. Also one of the best Smash Pass recipient if thats even a good point.

Cryogonal from B+ to A-
While its frail on the physical side and doesn't really have any important resists, its sheer bulk on the special side makes it a really cool check to most special attackers. base 105 Speed with Rapid Spin is nothing to laugh at, and it has near perfect coverage with just Ice Beam + Freeze-Dry (can run Hidden Power Ground/Fire/Fighting to deal with the rare Steel-types). Works on both offensive, balance, and stall teams.

Electivire from B+ to B
Electivire is kinda bad and doesn't deserve to be in the same rank as Magmortar.

Roselia from somewhere in C to B
A little less bulkier than Vileplume on the physical side, but has access to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Really good in this meta imo.

Tangela from B to B+
It walls a massive amount of S and A-rank Pokemon. Nearly impossible to OHKO without boosts on the physical side even when it runs an offensive spread. Speaking of the Offensive set, it is a god. Regenerator w/ the Grass-typing makes it a fantastic pivot for balanced teams and stall.

Crustle from B+ to A-
One of the most reliable lead for HO teams.

irc logs

<sg|afk> evire isnt b+ material
<zebraiken> considered down the line
<sg|afk> especially not
<sg|afk> when magmortar
<sg|afk> is b+
<sg|afk> cryo is rly good
<sg|afk> i would put it a-
<sg|afk> if it was me
<sg|afk> look at tangela
<sg|afk> and then
<sg|afk> look at how much it walls
<sg|afk> in S and a
<zebraiken> ye its good too
<sg|afk> put that b+
<zebraiken> they'll shift around a lot
<zebraiken> but
<zebraiken> i think this is a good start
<zebraiken> its b right now right
<sg|afk> ROSELIA
<sg|afk> in b
<sg|afk> b or b+
<sg|afk> somewhere.
<sg|afk> its fucking amazing
<zebraiken> lol rly
<sg|afk> ya
<sg|afk> i have been making tons of balance with it
<sg|afk> lol
<sg|afk> its a vileplume w/ spikes
<sg|afk> crustle should rise
<sg|afk> its the face of spikes HO
<sg|afk> atm
<sg|afk> you cant get more reliable that that
<sg|afk> i think kang should be A not A-

 

[Pooch13]

the minute i got to nu i saw that the VR were looking odd and didnt represent the tier properly, just saying( sorry for being a douche)

All that being said id like to nominate Cryogonal from B+ to A-/A.
Cryogonal has poor physical bulk, weakness to rocks, limited offensive movepool and weak to priority which are not good qualities in a spinner. However Cryo has great speed for a utility mon as well as great special bulk, reliable recovery and a great utility movepool (haze, rs, toxic, screens) and great coverage despite its movepool like Soulgazer said. Most of the time Cryo is a pain to deal with and gets its Job done or at least manage to wear down on the switch.

Second nomintion : Sandslash from C to B rank.
Slash is kinda outclased by tops as a spinner not only because tops is faster but also because they both have knock off and it works on rain offense. But Slash has fewer weaknesses and one immunity which in many cases its a huge asset vs rotom who is the most common spinblocker. Finally, Salsh resists SR damage unlike other spinners which increases its sustainability.

Grumpig from C to B-/B rank.
This mon has two sins in his conscience : weak to knock off and lack of reliable recovery. But dig a bit deeper and you ll find yourself with one mon with an absurdly vast number of utility moves : whirlwind, taunt, toxic, heal bell, t wave, screens, weather, trick mirror coat and a couple more. It also gets thick fat that allows it to wall some high rank threats and give some extra resistances to your team. Finally it has a decent offensive movepool if your team lacks coverage and mirror coat for when it takes SE hits.

 

[Aleccat]

Lopunny from D- to D+. Since KFC's departure, there is a reason to Agilipass now. Not only that, but this thing can Charm to help you sweep, can anti-lead, can bounce rocks/status/pseudo-status, and can give a sweeper a second life. Not the Vanilla Sky kind either, like an actual second chance at sweeping. In addition, Klutz helps her main niche which is Switcheroo. She is one of the only Pokemon to be able to Switcheroo an AV onto a lead (this means you Seismitoad or Crustle!), and has the coverage and speed to back it up. Although Fighting is common, she is a solid pick with solid strengths.