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Gen 5 NU Viability Rankings 2.0

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Raseri, May 26, 2013.

  1. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    NU Leader

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    [​IMG]

    credit to PKGaming and FlareBlitz for the idea; credit to Annoyer and DTC for running the original thread; credit to Keiran for the amazing banner '3'

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    Welcome to the NU viability ranking project. In this project, we will "tier" every Pokemon based on usefulness. An initial tier list has already been made; if you think something should be moved up or down, post in this thread with your reasoning on why, and the change may be enacted. After we have came up with a tier list that most people agree upon, it will go on-site somewhere in the NU hub.

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    Viability Ranking Council
    For more controversial cases, the viability ranking council will vote on the Pokemon's tiering.
    • Keiran
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    Tier List
    Without further ado, here is the initial tier list with the rough definitions of each tier (note: Pokemon are ordered alphabetically).

    S-Rank


    [​IMG] Charizard
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan
    [​IMG] Musharna
    [​IMG] Samurott


    A-Rank
    Top A
    [​IMG] Alomomola
    [​IMG] Carracosta
    [​IMG] Golurk
    [​IMG] Ludicolo
    [​IMG]Mandibuzz
    [​IMG] Misdreavus
    [​IMG] Primeape
    [​IMG] Sawk
    [​IMG] Seismitoad​

    Mid A
    [​IMG] Braviary
    [​IMG] Eelektross
    [​IMG] Golem
    [​IMG] Gurdurr
    [​IMG] Serperior
    [​IMG] Swellow
    [​IMG] Tauros
    [​IMG] Zangoose​

    Low A
    [​IMG] Drifblim
    [​IMG] Exeggutor
    [​IMG] Garbodor
    [​IMG] Haunter
    [​IMG] Piloswine
    [​IMG] Probopass
    [​IMG] Regirock
    [​IMG] Roselia
    [​IMG] Skuntank​

    B-Rank
    Top B
    [​IMG] Audino
    [​IMG] Gardevoir
    [​IMG] Gorebyss
    [​IMG] Liepard
    [​IMG] Metang
    [​IMG] Miltank
    [​IMG] Pinsir
    [​IMG] Rotom-Fan
    [​IMG] Rotom-Frost
    [​IMG] Tangela
    [​IMG] Weezing
    Mid B
    [​IMG] Beheeyem
    [​IMG] Camerupt
    [​IMG] Combusken
    [​IMG] Golbat
    [​IMG] Gothorita
    [​IMG] Kadabra
    [​IMG] Klang
    [​IMG] Muk
    [​IMG] Regice
    [​IMG] Sawsbuck
    [​IMG] Shiftry
    [​IMG] Swanna
    [​IMG] Torkoal
    [​IMG] Zweilous
    Low B
    [​IMG] Bastiodon
    [​IMG] Electabuzz
    [​IMG] Floatzel
    [​IMG] Fraxure
    [​IMG] Lickilicky
    [​IMG] Mantine
    [​IMG] Simipour
    [​IMG] Simisage
    [​IMG] Throh
    [​IMG] Torterra
    [​IMG] Ursaring
    [​IMG] Wartortle
    C-Rank
    Top C
    [​IMG] Altaria
    [​IMG] Arbok
    [​IMG] Articuno
    [​IMG] Basculin
    [​IMG] Cacturne
    [​IMG] Dragonair
    [​IMG] Grumpig
    [​IMG] Linoone
    [​IMG] Munchlax
    [​IMG] Murkrow
    [​IMG] Ninjask
    [​IMG] Pelipper
    [​IMG] Simisear
    [​IMG] Scraggy
    [​IMG] Victreebel
    [​IMG] Vileplume
    [​IMG] Volbeat
    [​IMG] Zebstrika​
    Mid C
    [​IMG] Ampharos
    [​IMG] Armaldo
    [​IMG] Butterfree
    [​IMG] Cradily
    [​IMG] Duosion
    [​IMG] Electrode
    [​IMG] Flareon
    [​IMG] Frillish
    [​IMG] Jumpluff
    [​IMG] Lapras
    [​IMG] Luxray
    [​IMG] Marowak
    [​IMG] Meganium
    [​IMG] Rampardos
    [​IMG] Rapidash
    [​IMG] Riolu
    [​IMG] Sneasel
    [​IMG] Swoobat
    [​IMG] Vigoroth​
    Low C
    [​IMG] Gigalith
    [​IMG] Glaceon
    [​IMG] Golduck
    [​IMG] Hypno
    [​IMG] Illumise
    [​IMG] Kingler
    [​IMG] Lairon
    [​IMG] Lampent
    [​IMG] Leafeon
    [​IMG] Magmar
    [​IMG] Masquerain
    [​IMG] Mawile
    [​IMG] Raichu
    [​IMG] Relicanth
    [​IMG] Shelgon
    [​IMG] Stunfisk
    D-Rank
    Top D
    [​IMG] Beartic
    [​IMG] Ditto
    [​IMG] Exploud
    [​IMG] Gabite
    [​IMG] Huntail
    [​IMG]Mothim
    [​IMG] Mr. Mime
    [​IMG] Natu
    [​IMG] Tropius
    [​IMG] Wynaut​
    Mid D
    [​IMG] Bronzor
    [​IMG] Dodrio
    [​IMG] Heatmor
    [​IMG] Octillery
    [​IMG]Pineco
    [​IMG] Regigigas
    [​IMG] Solrock​
    Low D
    [​IMG] Dwebble
    [​IMG]Girafarig
    [​IMG]Granbull
    [​IMG]Lopunny
    [​IMG]Lunatone
    [​IMG] Wailord
    [​IMG]Whiscash
    E-Rank
    [​IMG] Pikachu
    ____.everything else but mainly Pikachu


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    Rules
    • Post intellegently; no one will listen to you if you post random blabber that isn't supported by sufficient evidence.
    • Do not insult users just because you disagree with them.
    • Usage statistics do not determine viability.
    dictatorship.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
    Hollywood likes this.
  2. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
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    Now you may be asking: Why did we remake everything when theres a perfectly good thread already? The answer to that is threefold:

    • It wasn't updated for this meta at all and would take months to get there
    • Annoyer sux
    • I was bored It was really cluttered
    So me, ebeast, tennisace, Treecko, and FLCL kinda reworked the list from scratch in order to better fit this metagame.

    There are many Pokemon that have an asterisk beside them, these are Pokemon that did not reach a solid majority vote at all, ending in a 3-2 or 2-2 vote (FLCL left). They are Pokemon that will definitely need a discussion in order to find their true place!

    Pikachu sucks.
  3. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Ok, so I'm starting discussion with Beartic for C-Rank
    Beartic has quite a notable niche as an Ice-type Rain sweeper that can take on mons like Vileplume and Serperior that usually beat rain teams.
    vs Vileplume:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Vileplume: 406-478 (121.55 - 143.11%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    vs Serperior:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Serperior: 346-408 (97.74 - 115.25%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Vs Sawsbuck:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawsbuck: 471-556 (155.96 - 184.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Under rain with enough investment Beartic outspeeds all of the above(including Serperior) and can mitigate issues with special walls and grass-types in general.
  4. Axa

    Axa

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    How was the Floatzel vote going? I know there were quite a few people going for it being in B-rank.
  5. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
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    Floatzel was unanimously voted C-rank during our discussion today. I'll still leave it open to discussion, and tomorrow I'll post about why I think it belongs there. Just remember that it is not that strong, frail, and competes with many other better Water-types for a slot on a team.
  6. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    I'm honestly kind of on the ropes with Carra in S-Rank. There is no denying it becomes very dangerous after a Shell Smash, but I seriously doubt it is as low maintainence as the other S-Ranks.

    First off, its Speed. Carracosta is very slow and there is a drastic difference between the things it outspeeds with Jolly and Adamant after +2. Jolly can outspeed up to Serperior's base 113 (but not Swoobat's base 114) whereas Adamant outspeeds base 95s but not base 100s. This is a highly delicate balance between speed and power that we have to consider when using Shell Smash Costa; Jolly outspeeds much more unboosted threats but may fail to take OHKOs, but Adamant is handier against bulky walls and has a stronger Aqua Jet against anything faster than Serperior but as a result relies on Aqua Jet more often, offsetting your power advantage over Jolly Carra against faster teams.

    The item choice is also a difficult one, the most common being White Herb and Life Orb. White Herb grants you more resilience against priority after your setup by not hindering your defenses and even (rarely) allows a second Shell Smash, but is pitifully weak against walls like Alomomola and Tangela which it has no chance 2HKOing either and misses out a lot of OKHOes even after hazards. Life Orb powers up your attacks, most notably Aqua Jet against fast threats pre-Shell Smash, and gains greater wallbreaking ability at the cost of limiting you to a single boost and decreased survivability either to LO or priority. There are even mentions of pinch berries combined with Sturdy for a phenomenal sweeping force, but these kind of sets tend to work best late-game where there are less things to stop you, and considering that Sturdy is broken by entry hazards, you either lead with it (where it gets KOed like turn 3) or keep the hazards off the field before Carracosta is revealed, the latter of which can be pretty frustrating if you need to bring in Costa to tank a hit.

    My biggest issue with Carracosta is how it slightly restricts my teambuilding. What I mean by this is you have Carracosta as your Normal-Flying resist right, so you're all good? No, Swellow's Guts Facade deals 34.6 - 40.83%! Think you're safe to Smash against that? It doesn't stop there, Kangaskhan can deal 38.75 - 46.02% with Earthquake. That may not seem like much at first, but Kangaskhan could switch out and do a Fake Out + Sucker Punch double whammy (or predict your Aqua Jet) to cause great problems for Life Orb Carracosta. I find Shell Smash Carracosta to be very notably fragile despite what his defenses would suggest. You'd think a pokemon with 74 base HP and 133 Defense could set up easier against a pokemon with 90 base Attack, but Scolipede's Megahorn does a solid 40.83 - 48.78%, meaning it stops Life Orb Adamant Costa from Smashing at all. This kind of prompts you to carry another Normal-Flying resist for your team just for insurance, and they tend to stack weaknesses and/or litter your team with slow dudes (a big reason why people stray away from Armaldo). Jolly Costa on the other hand can miss out on some notable KOes like Scarf Primeape (83.08 - 97.79% with Jolly LO and 91.91 - 108.08% [50% chance to OHKO] with Adamant LO) All these points make S-Rank pretty iffy for Carracosta imo.

    Support Carracosta is pretty nifty though, but is solid A-Rank as opposed to S due to easily exploitable weaknesses and lack of recovery.

    Edit: The Water-types Floatzel competes with are pretty high up in rank themselves. This isn't to say Floatzel isn't bad, it has a way of overcoming its lack of power and bulk with Bulk Up plus Taunt + Baton Pass for team support, his Choice Switcheroo sets can screw up walls, and his moves can probably finally hit the faster mons of this meta just hard enough, meaning a mixed set could work (Simipour, the only notable competitor for this role, is notably slower), reducing its one-dimensionality. This is still up for debate though.
  7. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    "Who the hell decided to put Carracosta in S? What did he smoke?" sum my first thoughts about this new Viability Ranking thread up quite well.

    Carracosta for S-Rank is something I disagree with. Carracosta is good, but random Grass-attacks utterly wreck it unless it runs maximum defensive investment.
    Like Punchshroom explained, Carracosta without investment has significant trouble setting up that Smash... I do have experience with using Carracosta, and find the thing very annoying to use, despite its Solid Rock access.

    Support Carracosta is neat, much like Golem is. Both have their niches, but as an SR Setter, Golem is usually better thanks to Rock Blast, STAB Earthquake and a nifty choice between Explosion and Sucker Punch, and generally a better typing.

    I agree with Punchshroom and say that Carracosta does not belong in S-rank. A-rank is fine for the ancient beast.

    I don't know what to do with Floatzel, but it is a good Water-type due to its high speed. Torn between B- and C-rank though, but I won't deny its movepool and abilities are quite useful. In the end, I don't really care if it stays in C or goes to B.
  8. Axa

    Axa

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    I'll also note that in comparison to Simipour, the latter always loses to Jynx, and even Samurott is going to have trouble with Jynx if it comes in on a water or ice move because it's slower. Floatzel almost always has room for Crunch, Switcheroo or Baton Pass so unless it's running a Choice set Jynx is rarely wanting to come in for free. Floatzel definitely has its flaws, but I think its speed and versatility are definitely worth noting.

    I'd probably also push Marowak for B-Rank. An immunity is nice and it does hit very hard, especially in TR, but it's also weak to Water and Grass, two common types right now, and Misdreavus or Haunter easily comes in on two of its most common moves (Earthquake/Bonemerang or Double-Edge). Even in TR it's going to have three turns at best (also see the Stoutland posts last thread), it doesn't have a way of reliably boosting its speed otherwise, and perhaps more than any offensive Pokemon it's hurt by Trick/Switcheroo. It shouldn't really be any higher than Ursaring really, so B or even C-rank.
  9. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Marowak and Ursaring merely belong in the same rank, neither higher than the other. Didn't you see that the list was arranged alphabetically?
  10. Axa

    Axa

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    That's what happens you skim, I guess. Whoops!
  11. Hollywood

    Hollywood walking in a straight line, that's not really her style
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    Other Metas Leader

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    Braviary for A-Rank

    The main reason why I support Braviary for A-Rank is because of its Sub/Bulk Up set which sets up with relative ease on key threats in the metagame and the general lack of checks to the set right now.

    On setting up: the Sub/Bulk Up set is able to set up on a lot of good Pokemon. It can take multiple hits, with or without boosts, from the likes of Scolipede without Rock Slide, Alomomola, Garbodor, Golem after two or more Bulk Ups, Misdreavus without Foul Play or Perish Song (the latter of which is not common), Regirock (once again after some Bulk Ups), Audino, Gothorita, Lickilicky, Roselia without Sludge Bomb, most Shiftry, Tangela without HP Ice, and Torterra (with or without Stone Edge really, though a lack of Stone Edge helps), as well as some borderline cases that take smart playing. These are just Pokemon ranked B and above which means you will probably have even better success with it on the ladder. Braviary, to me, is one of the single best stall-breakers in the tier. The only thing holding it back is the lack of Taunt to stop phazing and Perish Song, but these are often only found on full stall-based teams. This set is great at breaking down defensive cores for balanced teams.

    On the lack of checks and counters: I know we touched upon this when we were placing everything, but because Flying-type checks are being ignored more often now in favor of Pokemon like Weezing and Misdreavus who have arguably more useful defensive typing for this metagame. I think this is a huge thing to touch upon: the way that Pokemon function within a tier depends upon how well people are able and willing to prepare for them. Musharna is still an A-Rank Pokemon right now because Skuntank has fallen in popularity because of the prominence of Scolipede, a Pokemon that can't even switch into it. This same logic can be applied to Sub/Bulk Up Braviary. Old gems can still be valuable, and I think that this is very much the case in this instance.

    In addition to that, Choice Band still wrecks.

    252 Atk Choice Band Braviary (+Atk) Brave Bird vs 252 HP/252 Def Alomomola (+Def) : 48.31% - 56.93% (2-3 hits to KO)

    Yeah it's going to hurt you a shitton as well, but it's worth it. The immediate power that the Choice Band set provides is insane.


    Eelektross for A-Rank

    One of the main appeals of Eelektross in the tier is its slow Volt Switch. Being able to provide such huge switch initiative is extremely beneficial, particularly for more offensive teams. A lot of times, games can be lost because a player never had a safe switch into an appropriate check or counter for one of his/her opponent's Pokemon. Eelektross alleviates this completely, only having to worry about Ground-types who fear a strong Giga Drain. In general, Eelektross is pretty bulky, and it has incredible offensive presence. Its coverage of Giga Drain/Thunderbolt/Flamethrower helps it get passed many of the bulkier Pokemon in the tier. Finally, having practically no weakness out side of a Mold Breaker Earthquake just adds to Eelektross's bulk; having no exploitable weaknesses means it will be harder to KO. Ultimately, I feel like all of these factors added together are what make Eelektross such a good Pokemon in NU.



    I was also working on Golurk (and planning on working on most, if not all, of the others that need discussion, but I started getting tired and rambling. I'll finish responding to this tomorrow morning!

    Edit: on a short side note, the main reason why I like Marowak higher up is because of its anti-lead Stealth Rock set. With Bonemerang, it can KO even Sturdy Stealth Rock leads. I love this quality so much since I hate spinning in NU. Also, it just generally wrecks with 568 Attack with max EV investment and Thick Club. It is a high quality Pokemon, and it deserves to be B-Rank imo.
  12. roseyraid

    roseyraid

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    This looks to be pretty good to me barring a couple of things. Firstly, Carracosta is not S-rank at all in my opinion. Mold Breaker Sawk gives it trouble no matter what set its running, as does most scarfers. Offensively and defensively it is countered by taunt, which shuts down both rocks and smash. You've also got guys like Eelektross and the CM Serp sets which have been popular lately. I'd support it for A-rank, as despite these flaws its pretty solid.

    The only other two that I think are misplaced are Gardevoir and Sawsbuck, which are both solid A imo. Garde can do so many sets, whether it be offensive, defensive or even a support set, as well as having an excellent ability in trace, which can make it a fearsome Ludicolo counter by copying Swift Swim, or by doing things like stopping volt switchers with lightningrod e.g. Zebstrika. On the other hand, Sawsbuck has massive power after even one SD on the subSD sets and from my experience always gets at least one kill a game. It's also a good band user, Grass & Normal is a great STAB with Nature Power (EQ) to finish off the coverage as well as bypass Sucker Punch. Hell, if you wanted to you could even use a BP set with SD/BP and either two attacks or one attack and sub. After all of this it seems to me at least that they are solid choices for A, and they more than make up for their flaws which is mainly a somewhat lacking defense.

    Finally on the matter of Eelektross I'd say it should definitely be A or maybe even S rank. No weaknesses, usable bulk and a great movepool make it really good in NU, there is so many things that it can do. I like using an Expert Belt set with tbolt/giga/flamethrower/uturn which can easily get a kill a game. I use Eel on a lot of my teams if I need a last member, its just so good for patching holes in teams with its utterly mad set of coverage moves. Its only weakpoint is speed which can be used to give a slow volt/uturn which is always nice. It also has shades of Samurott, it can go so many ways it can be hard to counter if you see it.

    tl;dr carra, garde and saws for A, eel for high A or possibly S imo
  13. JoshuaMunoz

    JoshuaMunoz

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    I am on the fence regarding Carracosta: it has an easy time setting up when it finds the right oppurtunity to do so, though its pathetic Special Defense stat compounded with common weaknesses prevent it from finding one. Although, Carracosta does beat most Choice Scarf users with Aqua Jet once it sets up, so there's that.

    Sawsbuck has drastically plummeted in terms of viability. Its Speed tier, once regarded as one to beat, is now shared by the two powerful newcomers in Primeape and Jynx. Its STABs are quite lackluster as well, with Normal not hitting anything for SE damage, and Grass, which isn't good at all due to the high usage the likes of Scolipede and Charizard obtain. Its 95 Base Attack is not superb either, and back that up with its mediocre Base 75 Power STAB, it just isn't too strong. It has many common weaknesses and is the definition of frail. It should stay in B-Rank just because it is still a potent physical Grass type and it is still good with proper support.

    Regarding Gardevoir, its offensive prowess is overshadowed of that of Jynx, due to the latter's higher Speed stat and a great offensive typing. Gardevoir's ability to trace Swift Swim Ludicolo doesn't really matter anymore as Jynx usually beats it one vs one, just adding more reasons to use Jynx over Gardevoir. Its defensive set isn't too good imo, as I see Musharna fitting the role better due to overall better bulk. Gardevoir is just not as good as it once was anymore, ultimately placing it in B-Rank.

    Eelektross is an interesting subject: on one hand, it doesn't have any weaknesses, it has two potent attacking stats, one that packs superb coverage (only missing Dragons!), while the other has access to a boosting move in Coil; but on the other hand, its inability to take repeated hits as well as disappointing Speed stat hinder its sweeping capabilities. I see it more of an A-Rank Pokemon to be honest.

    Edit: Is there any reasoning as to why Rotom-Freeze is A while Rotom-Fan is B? Yeah, Freeze has a decent defensive typing and BoltBeam, but why is it considered the better Rotom form in the tier?
  14. No Luck Involved

    No Luck Involved

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    I typed a bunch but lost it all :(

    Basically I think Audino should drop down to C-rank because it isn't bulky enough and lacks any sort of movepool and is huge setup bait but has a Dual Screens niche, Regirock to B-rank because it lacks reliable recovery and Rock Blast and doesn't help the team nearly as much as Piloswine or Golurk (priority, antilead, excellent STABs and coverage etc).

    And Lickilicky should move up to A-rank because it is one of the bulkiest mofos in the tier on both sides, has excellent support movepool, good offensive stats to either break subs as a wall or hit hard offensively, and can surprise opponents with all kinds of offensive, defensive and setup sets which are all usable (Spdef, SD, Curse, Band, Mixed, Cloud Nine, they're all decent sets!). It is the premier special wall and very versatile outside of that, so deserves A-rank imo.

    Also Metang in B-rank doesn't look right. I'm struggling to think what it can do, check Jynx somewhat I guess, but it is massive setup bait for nearly everything. For a full stall team it might be OK but it lacks phazing or any sort of threat and not even Leftovers! It is C-rank if generous, but I'd be tempted to stick it straight into D-rank!
  15. vyomov

    vyomov

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    My thoughts on the nominations:
    a) Beartic: Nobody's really given any reason why not and I backed it in my earlier post so I believe it should be C-rank
    b) Carracosta: I completely agree, Carracosta is weak to priority(like Mach Punch) and thus can be handled even after the smash. Carra also has bad defenses and despite the normal type resist takes loads from Guts Swellow and etc. Carracosta for A-Rank
    c) Gardevoir: Outclassed by Jynx because of the secondary Ice STAB, Gardevoir fits well in B-Rank
    d) Sawsbuck: Nah, not A-rank. Why? Scolipede. Sawsbuck falls woefully short on speed and is forced to switch out vs Scoli, allowing it to set Spikes or even worse, SD while you switch and sweep. B-rank
    e) Audino: Agreed, Alomomola and Gardevoir outclass it as defensive mons, C-Rank
    f) Regirock: I'd like to disagree on Regirock. Regirock has very good defensive stats, a good attack stat. Honestly, Rock Blast? It has better moves(Rock Slide and Stone Edge). Even better, it DOES have recovery in the form of Drain Punch which is a good move while an opponent switches in Gorebyss to set up. A-rank for me
    g) Lickilicky: I agree, it is a bulky phazer and has a lot of good, viable sets that warrant an A-Rank
    h) Metang: I disagree. Metang can act as an excellent physical wall and has a really good STAB attack(Meteor Mash) to compensate for it's lack of power. It also has good coverage with Earthquake and is a good SR-setter. B-rank for me
  16. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    Primeape is definately not S rank, get him down to A. Ok it's faster than sawk and it has u-turn but it pretty much ends here.

    A fighting resist is usualy one of the first things one will want to put in a team (and usualy more than one), primpeape might have u-turn to weaken them off, but the fact the most common resist are poison and ghost (with psychic taking a drop) means u-turn will be dealing about nothing especially without a boosting item because ape usualy runs scarf, e belt or fist plate.

    The fact primeape is considerably weaker than sawk and that he's usualy an inferior choice band and LO user means all his attacks take a huge drop in power. Combine his not so strong close combat (scarf doesn't even ohko lickilicky 100% of the time) with his pittyfull defence and even complete bullshit like 0 attack gyro ball wormadam-trash are ohko'ing him after his close combat. His coverage moves also take a huge drop in power, with ice punch being so weak you have to run stone edge to hit flyings reasonably hard (although boss golbat still doesn't give a fuck). And even then, you still have to run ice punch because you still aren't hitting golurk at all if you don't (which happens to be the most common poke in the tier).

    His paper thin defences also make him extremly vulnerable to priority and the fact he's constanlty u-turning in the most spike friendly meta NU has ever known (bar maybe round 0) means he won't be lasting long doing that either. Running ape as a scarfer will also often leave you weak to gorebyss because he is not ohko'ing it if it runs white herb. (Jynx won't save you, gorebyss now runs signal beam) His ability is also near usless considering if you predict wrong and switch ape in a predicted sleeping move you might just get ohko'd or just completely walled by the vileplume or tangela who lawfs at your terrible switch who just costed you hazards damage.

    Not scarfing it to get encore is an option, but a rather mediocre one since there's still a whole lot of stuff that outspeed it so he won't be encoring stuff like serp or swoobat in sub or calm mind. He can't absorb any status either (unlike kadabra) nore can he even tank any attack (unlike volbeat) (bar stupid stuff like knock off and rapid spin) so there's no point in locking your opponent in status or attacking moves either.

    I've used primeape in at least 40 games, and he was usualy the least useful member of my team, I've also played somewhere around 200 games in this meta and i've seen ape do something really useful like 3 to 5 times with maybe only one time being something sawk couldn't have done. To me, he is actualy B rank but since I know I'll never get him there, I'd at least want to see him drop to A.

    EDIT: Oh and to all those who think u-turn alone is enough to keep him S rank, keep in mind that 85% of the time you revenge kill something, u-turn does not have suffcient power to do so meaning it's a 50-50 mind game on weather you'll use cc or u-turn and this mind game can cost you just as much as it can help you which is clearly not enough to make ape S rank.
  17. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
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    time to tackle these, one at a time.

    Beartic for C-rank would be something I'd support if it was able to do something outside of Rain teams. Unfortunately I would almost never want to use it if its not on a dedicated rain team. When I read the definition of D-rank, it fits Beartic perfectly. It is justifiable to use it on Rain teams, but outside of its specific niche on them I would never want to use it over Piloswine, Sneasel, or any other physical attacker. If Beartic was to become more usable outside of Rain teams, I would definitely up support it for C-rank. But as it stands, I believe it is a comfortable D-rank Pokemon.


    First of all, I think Costa should always be running Jolly in this meta. I tried Adamant, but the drop in Speed is so drastic with Scolipede, Tauros and the like running around. Adamant costa was great until this meta, but now I would never use it.



    In regards to Carracosta as a set-up sweeper. I believe that it is one of the top 2 sweepers in the tier. Carracosta isn't nearly as hard to set up as you make it seem. It can't switch into Scolipede but it can set up in a 1v1 situation. There is also Primeape / Sawk not locked into Close Combat, Alomomola without Scald, Skuntank, a few variants of Jynx, Charizard, Miltank, variants of Samurott (can't switch in here), kanga (can't switch in), Swellow, Wartortle lol, some Altaria, Lickilicky, many Regirock, lots of Tauros, Garbodor. The list goes on and on, Costa is able to set up on many defensive threats, and due to how broken Shell Smash is as a whole, it can turn the game around in one move better than any other Pokemon in NU.

    I've prepared a list of damage calcs using Stealth Rock and a single layer of Spikes, which is nearly guaranteed in this metagame due to the presence of Scolipede.

    Admittingly not great,but nearly any chip damage before hand is enough to guarantee the kill. And Scarf Sawk is on the decline anyways. Take that as you will.

    You have a shot to get the kill with just SR, and a nearly 70% chance with Spikes. Combined you are guaranteed the kill. So Primeape isn't a stop to Costa at all.

    Strong. With 3 layers of Spikes you have a chance to OHKO, and there is nothing Mola can do back.

    Even Missy. Who I've heard some people want in S rank, can't stand up to Costa. Especially considering how easy she is to wear down. A shot at the kill on a Misdreavus that hasn't been used yet is pretty great.

    ya, this is really strong. Mush is on the decline right now, but it can't check Fighting types and Carracosta in the same match, really easy to overwhelm.

    So under the same circumstances, Scarf Tauros can 2HKO back while getting killed by Waterfall easily. So if Costa is sufficiently weakened its possible to be revenge killed by it.


    What I'm getting at is that you need a really bulky scarfer in order to beat Costa one it's set up (or a serperior). Carracosta has many Pokemon that it can set up on, and one it has set up it is very difficult to take down. It is one of the top physical attackers in the tier, and its consistency as an offensive threat puts it on a level equal to Samurott. It's support set hasn't even been considered here, but if I took that into account it would only solidify it as an S-rank Pokemon for me. If people want Carracosta in A tier, then I think Samurott should drop as well. I believe they are both top 5 Pokemon in this metagame, and easily worthy of S, but if people disagree they should drop together.



    I'll get to the rest of the arguments later, particularly Primeape, Audino, and Lickilicky. Thanks!
  18. Worldtour

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    Just popping in, but why is Illumise B-Rank? It is pretty much a Volbeat without Tail Glow, which makes it seem a LOT worse. Is there something it can do that I'm missing that is better than what Volbeat can do?

    EDIT: Another pop-in, but what exactly makes Stantler better than Sawsbuck in any regard? It's only advantage it seems like is Calm Mind, but it has no STAB alongside it. Also, the on-site set is 100% doable with Sawsbuck. E-Rank imo.

    EDIT2: I agree with Sweet Jesus. If Wish is all it has, then it deserves D-Rank, not B. Its HP isn't even that high!
  19. Axa

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    Stantler has only one weakness, as compared to Sawsbuck's weaknesses to Fire, Flying, Ice, Bug and Poison. Stantler does have Intimidate, for what it's worth.

    Not gonna say Stantler is really any good, and I never see it anyway, but if enough people have used it I guess it's there.
  20. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    Good point about illumise, wish is not enough to keep it higher than D rank imo. I also think marowak is just as not good enough as it has always been with the current most common walls ignoring him as much as they always have and his terrible speed being just as bad as it always has, so C rank imo.
  21. MQJinx

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    Nominating Omanyte for D-Rank. It, along with Dwebble (and Pineco which doesn't have an analysis) are the only NU Pokemon with Spikes AND Stealth Rock, giving it a niche. It has a decent 90 SpA, and it can burn physical attackers with Scald. (It can run Toxic Spikes, but why bother when Scolipede's running amok?) HP Rock provides STAB and coverage that KOs the birds, while Toxic can stall Misdreavus. It can also go offensive, with Surf, Hydro Pump, and Ice Beam, taking out Serperior, Charizard, Golem, Golurk, Piloswine, and Regirock. It suffers from poor speed and SDef and a lack of recovery, which is why I don't think it should get higher than D-Rank.
  22. ebeast

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    I completely agree with Sweet Jesus on Primeape for A-rank. It would have a tied score for it but FLCL left to support my A vote.

    He already wrote a really good case towards it being A-rank, so I don't feel I have to follow it up. Just read his post!~

    Anyways I think Lickilicky should stay in B-rank and Audino should stay in B-rank as well. I personally think Audino is a better Wish passer thanks to Regenerator allowing it to just Wish and pass, unlike Lickilicky who needs to Protect its Wishes to keep itself. Audino very much has a good support movepool with moves like Encore and Heal Bell. In terms of being set up bait, Double-Edge from Audino is stronger than Lickilicky's Body Slam. While it does have recoil and Body Slam does have a chance to paralyze, on the teams that both should be used in (Stall because Lickilicky a pretty bad Wish passer on balance) you don't really want to have things paralyzed anyways. Lickilicky still has a few useable niches to let it not drop down to C-rank, though none of them are really that good right now.

    EDIT: Also I would be in favor of adding Metang to A-rank, its typing and bulk for this metagame is really good. It gets up Stealth Rock reliably and is a great check/counter to Jynx, Kangaskhan, Zangoose, Musharna, Serperior and Flying-type Pokemon.

    EDIT2: I also agree with SJ about C-rank Marowak. idg why B-rank won the majority when we did the list lol
  23. Axa

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    How is Omanyte going offensive when it's at base 35 speed and is weak to many of the Pokemon it so-called 'takes out'? Serperior, Golem, Golurk, Piloswine all hit it SE, Regirock usually has EQ, and Charizard won't be coming in anyway. Also Gorebyss and Carracosta are better in every way as a sweeper really. It doesn't even outrun +ve base 100s after a Shell Smash.

    Stealth Rock isn't that big a deal for Omanyte since so many Pokemon have it, so the question is if Spikes is enough to justify its presence (it's not). At least Dwebble has some speed and a Bug STAB which the other Shell Smashers don't get. E-rank personally.
  24. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
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    Ok I'm going to tackle a few of these, since I was there last night.

    I disagree, and I will say that they were both unanimously voted B by the 4 people that were there.

    Gardevoir- Base 80 speed used to be the gold standard of the metagame, but now it's way too slow to really do much of anything. Gardevoir was great as a jack of all trades kind of Psychic-type: it could go offensive with Life Orb, cripple a wall or sweep with Trick Scarf, or use its passable bulk to support the team with Wish / Will-O-Wisp. Now, it gets outsped by 3 top threats in the metagame (Jynx, Scolipede, Primeape). Its LO set is drastically outclassed by Jynx, who can cripple a Pokemon with Lovely Kiss and then start ripping into teams with its better Ice/Psychic STAB. Its Scarf set is also outclassed by Jynx, because Jynx doesn't get straight up outsped by base 95 Scarfers, and can again cripple mons through Trick or Lovely Kiss. Its bulky sets can't stand up to Scolipede, and Primeape can just U-turn out for a huge chunk of damage. Musharna is your best bet for that role. Even if you use Traced Swift Swim as an argument, Seismitoad is immune to Thunderbolt, and Psychic won't OHKO. All in all, the metagame is really not favorable for it at all, which is why it dropped to B-rank.

    The same goes for Sawsbuck really. While Grass is a good offensive-typing, Sawsbuck is frail and doesn't appreciate Scolipede running around everywhere. There are also a ton more Fire-types around, especially Charizard, that outspeed and can easily OHKO. Scarf Primeape is also a thing, and it can either KO with Ice Punch, Close Combat, or U-turn out for heavy damage (might also be an OHKO depending on hazards). Finally, it only speed ties with Jynx, meaning it can't really force it out (especially if Jynx is Scarf). The best niche Sawsbuck has right now is a Chlorophyll sweeper, where it can outspeed the entire meta with doubled speed in Sun, but that requires the significant support of a Sun team, leaving Bambi in B.

    PS: Eelektross is not even close to S-rank, it's closer to B rank than S-rank. Slow Volt Switch is nice, but its bulk isn't all that great and it doesn't get many resistances at all.

    Lickilicky and Audino are both B because they perform the same role in slightly different ways, but the fact remains that they're both Normal-types in a metagame filled with Ghost-types and Fighting-types.

    Audino is B-rank because of Regenerator, and with Double-Edge it outputs about the same damage as a Lickilicky Body Slam. Regenerator allows it to not have to always Protect after using Wish, since it can heal its own HP at the same time as a teammate's. That alone is pretty damn huge, it frees up a moveslot to use another support move like Toxic so that you can hit Misdreavus coming in.

    Lickilicky is also B-rank because it's fat, and can phaze with Dragon Tail, and can Wish pass. However it really needs Wish, Protect, and Dragon Tail on its moveset, leaving only one slot for either Heal Bell, Stealth Rock, or Body Slam, all of which are good moves. The problem is that it doesn't have room for all of them. It's also really easily worn down with smart switching, since it doesn't have Regenerator to heal it when it gets forced out. All of the offensive sets aside from like Normal Gem Explosion are outclassed by either Kangaskhan, which has the same effective bulk as an offensive Lickilicky would, but with a much more effective movepool in Scrappy-boosted Fake Out, Sucker Punch, and Drain Punch, or Tauros which trades bulk for raw speed and power. I wouldn't even come close to calling it the "premier special wall", let alone the fact that in this metagame, pure walls are less valuable than tanks that can hit back hard.

    I'm not going to write a full paragraph on this but Metang is solidly B-rank, since it has great typing and great bulk in the metagame, and people have figured out how to effectively use what attack power it does have, through Hone Claws or Psych Up.

    Why would I need to use a mind game? Early game all you need to do is spam U-turn, until all of the Ghost/Psychic-types are gone. Then you can quickly and easily clean up the opponent. Also, you're ignoring all of the non-choice sets that Primeape can effectively use, like EndRev, Encore/Taunt + U-turn, Fling Fist Plate, and even Rain Dance. I will say that Primeape is on the edge of S/A, but I still think we should err more on the side of S for such a prolific Pokemon.

    I thought we agreed it would be D-rank last night, which is where I put it on the piratepad we were using. Volbeat is B because it gets all the cool Prankster moves and then can pass Tail Glow on top of it. Illumise performs roughly the same as a priority weather mon but doesn't have that extra role, since priority Wish is kinda meh from a mon with such low HP.

    Omanyte is about the 6th or 7th best Spiker in the tier, and I wouldn't use it over any listed Pokemon that gets Spikes. It's absolutely horrendous and is 100% E-rank.

    I'm just going to suggest that people stick to discussing Pokemon that are currently starred in the OP, since those are the ones that probably need the most discussion. Bring up crapmons later.

    Edit: Marowak should stay C-rank, it's slow as fuck and doesn't get really any opportunities to set up. It's also weak to the 3 best attacking types in NU right now (Water, Grass, Ice). It's really strong but needs a fuckton of support, like Gigalith or Rampardos.
  25. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    Because if the opponent has the guts to stay in with his golem on first turn, well you just made pitiful damage to it while he got rocks up for free. Same goes for when you revenge kill, that 25% seismitoad just won't die if you u-turn but then your opponent could just switch out to something that resists primeape if you don't u-turn.

    And I don't ignore non scarf sets, many aspects of my comment are for more than just scarf, you just chose to ignore them.

    EDIT: and you can add poison to ghost/psychic types because unlike for sawk, golbat, garbodor, weezing and even muk are good answers to primeape.
    Volcaronaaa likes this.

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