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Gen 5 NU Viability Rankings 2.0

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Raseri, May 26, 2013.

  1. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
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    I definitely agree with Combusken up to Mid-B. in addition to what joshuamunoz and shuckleking have mentioned above, Combusken can act as a revenge killer thanks to Protect and at the same time retaining its coverage and power thanks to Life Orb.

    I also think Goth should move down to Mid-B. Like lasagne, I haven't used it to really great effect. It does trap and slowly kill the physical walls (except missy) and maybe Audino, but then that's difficult to fit onto teams. It takes hefty damage from Banded Sawk Close Combat (2hkod I think) and it has a disappointing base speed and special attack stats, which means it needs to boost to really get powered up.
  2. Hollywood

    Hollywood she's thin, she's blonde, she says "wow" a lot
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    Yeah, I must say that I've always found Zebstrika to be far too underwhelming whenever I've used it in the past. On paper, it sounded great when stage nine started and it outsped all of our new frail offensive drops, but in practice, it's a whole different story, especially when you consider that bulky offense is arguably the best playstyle in NU right now. Really, the fact that it's such dead weight against so many different Pokemon—I'd list examples, but seriously, anything with even decent bulk or resists is going to live a hit—don't care at all about it. If it had like Switcheroo, sure, I'd be all for using it. But it doesn't. I'd much rather use Scarf Charizard for a cleaner, Scarf Primeape for a speedy scout, or Scarf Jynx as a revenge killer. Ultimately, as a Choice Scarf user, to me, it's not very good. As a Choice Specs user, frankly, once again, I'd rather use something far more powerful. I agree that it has niche enough as a really fast Choice Scarf user to revenge kill a lot of really fast Pokemon, but that's only enough to make it mid B-Rank imo (honestly, I'd be fine if it was low B, but it's ok in mid too).

    I actually don't have any discrepancies, to be honest. There are some things that I can say "ok I might have had that just a bit higher or lower," but nothing that I feel drastically deserves a rise or drop.

    As for Gothorita:
    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Gothorita (+Def) : 29.01% - 34.26% (3-4 hits to KO)

    Aside from the fact that no, Sawk's Close Combat does not 2HKO Gothorita (or even 3HKO almost every time, since it needs almost the highest possible role three times in a row in order to do it), I'm not sure that you guys were really using Gothorita to its fullest potential if you felt it was lackluster. Where Gothorita really shines is in trapping opposing walls and Toxic stalling them through really good physical bulk and added special bulk from Calm Mind. By far the best Gothorita set to me is Calm Mind/Psychic/Rest/Toxic, which seriously beats almost every dedicated wall in the tier. After trapping and killing opposing walls, it's really easy to open up a sweep for something else on your team rather than trying to sweep with Gothorita itself. Gothorita isn't the easiest Pokemon to use (hence why it's B-Rank and not A), but it's also not so gimmicky that you have to either play a really unskilled player or luck a good player in order for it to succeed. I could maybe see it going down to Mid B, but I honestly think that the very unique utility it provides for offensive teams more than warrants it a spot in Top B.
  3. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87 "Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
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    Actually, I would forgo toxic for a move like reflect or signal beam; as it is not too difficult to set up to +6 with calm minds, while using toxic does not let you set up that much.
  4. Hollywood

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    The main reason why I use Toxic is because it's an easier (and quicker, really) way to beat most defensive Pokemon in NU, but yeah, Reflect and Signal Beam are both valid options as well. Of course, I'll let other players weigh in on what they think the best set for Gothorita is; the one I posted is just the one I personally prefer.

    Ultimately what it boils down to is something DTC and I discussed on IRC: Gothorita usually doesn't get many kills, but if you make your one kill worthwhile (like against an Alomomola or a Tangela that the rest of your team may struggle to break), you can win games solely because of it. It's important when using Gothorita to make its kill(s) worthwhile. If you use it to set up to +6 on something and then except to sweep, you more than likely will be disappointed with the outcome.
    WhiteDMist likes this.
  5. Dat Blast

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    Nominating Vileplume for Mid-B

    Vileplume is pretty useful in the current meta imo; it has pretty good all-around stats, solid typing, and a couple of nice support options like Sleep Powder and Aromatherapy. It can also absorb T-Spikes, which is always useful. Makes for a great check to a lot of top threats: Golurk, Sawk, Primeape, Samurott, Seismitoad, Ludicolo, Serperior, and so on. Granted, the new drops were not very kind to it (lookin at you, Jynx >:| ) but I feel it's still good enough to warrant at least Mid-B.
  6. Punchshroom

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    Gothorita is pretty niche, forming a very watered down "DragMag" core but is able to partner up with more pokemon, most notable physical attackers such as Sawk, Scolipede and Swellow. Gothorita's movepool is pretty damn huge (but no reliable recovery sucks, though that'll probably make it a bit too good for NU, what of Gothitelle...), sporting many support moves in Fake Tears, Heal Bell, Taunt, Trick and Mean Look (lolwut) to screw up walls. In fact, I don't think Goth even needs to boost: simply cry its foes into submission and Psychic / Psyshock away.
  7. ebeast

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    I agree with moving Klang up to Mid B as well as keeping Gothorita as Top B. I think the Rest / Sleep Talk / Shift Gear / Gear Grind set is the best Klang for the current metagame as it can double as a Normal, Flying, and Jynx check and being a set up sweeper. It's dangerous and getting the right support for it isn't hard when it has good synergy with the Pokemon that support it (Bulky Pede for Tspikes and Musharna/Missy for Heal Bell) A Steel-typing with those great 60/95/85 defenses combined with Eviolite is really good in NU due to the sheer bulk and resistances that it has.

    As for Gothorita everyone has already said what's good about it, so I'll just say I agree with the DTC quote. Reflect Gothorita rules. : )
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  8. DTC

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    i agree that klang should move up, but instead of mid b, i think it should be top b.

    klang is so bulky it's not even funny. it's such an insanely good check to pretty much any pokemon that stabs are not very effective vs klang because of his sheer bulk. for instance, my 252 atk lo kanga did ~30% to cherubagent's resttalk klang. klang can easily check the majority of the tier while setting up right on their faces, potentially sweeping. this includes 4 of the "best" mons in nu right now: jynx (watch out for focus blast and trick), kangaskhan, scolipede, and musharna. the main issue is klang needs a few boosts before it can muscle through mons like seismitoad and sweep through a team, but at least klang can easily live weaker super effective attacks like seismitoad's earthquake.

    klang may possibly be low a material, but i'll have to use it more before i can make an accurate call on that.
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  9. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    Goth top b because it traps :)

    Also im fine with Klang moving up to mid, top is kinda pushing it but if people want it there ill move it. It did sweep me in conq :<

    Also Combusken would be good if it had accurate and strong STAB moves, i really dont want to move it up when it can almost never sweep because of it missing. And the SD set is really easy to wall
  10. Hot N Cold

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    I dont think that Kangaskhan is Top-S, i agree with Kanga with S-rank but not with the Top. I think that this space is deserved for suspect mons that are close to be broken / or they are broken finally, that lacks to true counters like Jynx (and just depends on the set, for example you need run a counter of every set on defensive teams or 2-3 checks on more offensive teams oriented and play around her since is totally unpredictable with Nasty Plot and Lovely Kiss, great coverage with strong STAB, Psyshock or Focus Blast, Calm Mind sets can be annoying as well and finally a Choice Scarf is one of the best Scarf users avalaible on the tier, also Jynx hits the top 95 base on speed.

    The problem with Kangaskan is that is totally predictable, return or double edge, double priority, drain punch, earthquake or toxic, this is all. This is very effective i agree, by this reason also this mon is one of best physical sweepers on the tier - probably the best all-round against Bulky Offense.
    Hazards in overall criple a lot Kangaskhan since lacks to Leftovers, Toxic Spikes also are very annoying for Kanga since Fake Out. Rocky Helmet mons are super popular on this meta, stuff like Regirock or Garbodor which also are a good checks of Kanga. The list of counter / checks of Kanga is very large: Musharna, Alomomola, Tangela, Metang, Regirock, Garbodor, Misdreavus, in the best case for Kangaskhan they are 2hko with different spikes layers / SR on the field / Kanga usually losing a big part of the health because Double Edge. Toxic is annoying for some stuff like Alomomola or Tangela but then lose effectiviness against more offensive threats. In overall i think that Kangaskhan is one of the best NU mons but not Top-S rank imo A bit slow, predictable, lacks to recovery and losing health quickly bc lacks to Leftovers and Double Edge and finally some really solid checks/counters/rk to play well around Kangaskhan which involve less risky reward(opposite case is Jynx). Totally understable to be low/mid S-rank imo
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  11. Punchshroom

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    Kanga is Top-S mainly because no other pokemon does what she can do: stop offensive pokemon, and she does it to such a degree of effectiveness. The only poke that can come close is Ditto, who struggles against targets who resist their own STAB and/or coverage moves. Kanga's STAB Fake Out + Sucker Punch combo can deter many a sweeper; in fact, if a sweeper is unfazed by Kanga's priority, such as Carracosta and Protect Combusken, it stands a good shot at success. Kanga also has Scrappy, meaning her Fake Out and also Double-Edge will be hitting everything, leaving only bulky pokemon, Rocks and Steels willing to switch into her repeatedly as even Ghosts can get worn down, not that they are the most optimal switch-in to begin with.

    Kanga is also blessed with well-rounded stats: she has good bulk, power and speed all in one, so she is definitely a threat for most teams. So what if she's predictable, chances are your sweeper is still not getting past Kanga on its own, at least without taking a huge chunk of damage. She does struggle a bit with defensive pokemon, who don't care about her bulk and speed and can usually shrug off her powerful hits, but since the meta is still favoring offense this is good for Kanga to function. Substitute sets can still be used to throw them for a loop though, usually accompanied with Focus Punch or Toxic.

    The argument with hazards and status being problematic for Kanga can be applied to any sweeper really, the likes of Jynx, Scolipede and Samurott like status no more than Kanga does, and keep in mind Kanga does not mind paralysis as much due to her priority, provided she doesn't spasm too often. Indeed, using a moveslot for something like Sub, Toxic or Focus Punch can reduce her effectiveness against offensive threats, but doesn't that make her a good lure? I agree she isn't as good (broken) as Jynx is, but she can still hold her own/throttle the meta with her priority, Scrappy and good stats. That's how good Kanga is, you may see her coming a mile away, but your (frailer) offensive mons are still going to have trouble with her until she is down for good, since she can still potentially stop you even at 1%.
  12. Hot N Cold

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    I say that Kangaskhan haters hazards because aparently she has a great bulk , good bulky but really a bad type defensive, Kangaskhan is right that works pretty well against offense but cant switch against most powerful forzes in NU: Jynx, Scolipede, Zangoose etc Also on offensive teams Kanga have solid checks as well that can play around Kanga pretty well such Carracosta, pivot Musharna, Metang, Gurdurr, Primeape and Sawk Scarf are both a good RK against Kanga, needs Earthquake against Skuntank, nature power/sub Sawsbuck is annoying.. so dont beat easily offense teams like aparently can seem.

    When I say that Kangaskhan is really hurts by hazards mostly is because Double Edge just hurts a lot Kangaskhan losing a big parf of the health then add Silk Scarf or Life Orb (in the best case you dont recover health), if you prefer Adamant nature is just slow and if you dedices Jolly nature with Return + Leftovers to dont lose health / recover hits a bit weak :|

    btw, is hard to compare Jynx with Kanga into bulk since Jynx is glass cannon while Kanga is a offense presence with a decent bulk. Jynx also helps against waters such Seismitoad, Ludicolo, Samurott or Carracosta with the Choice Scarf, while Kangaskahn type doesnt help since is weak to common fightyng types while the ability to be inmunity to Ghost types is kinda useless since this attacks are mostly used by Ghost types which just are checks of her such Misdreavus or Frillish, Dynamic/EQ Golurk beat her and finally Haunter does 2HKO to Kanga with Sludge Bomb or just cripple with WoWisp. The utility of Kanga is to revenger killer faster things with Fake Out + Sucker Punch or another attacker, and with hazards is being limited to do this work. Jynx / Samurott for example are more wallbreaking in the battle, so hazards like Toxic Spikes matter less on this mons than Kanga which also mostly times just attacks 2 turns because Fake Out, this means that you lose health on this turn because poison, limited with spikes + sr and if you are gonna kill something probably you're gonna die or at least you cant switch again. Finally, physical sweepers like Kanga hurts more against some ability/items such Rough Skin / Aftermath / Rocky Helmet that down more easily Kangaskhan while this abilities / items doesnt exist on the special side.
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  13. Punchshroom

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    I merely compared Kanga with Jynx due to their ranking. There's little arguing that Jynx is the harder mon to stop, but Kanga does her unique job well enough that she is deserving of her rank. If you are really concerned for Kanga's health, Drain Punch is an option, though its weak power may encourage the use of Life Orb, which Drain Punch combos okay with but doesn't with Double-Edge (replacing it with Return is recommended). It isn't really too hard for Kanga to do her job, just her presence is enough to deter most setup sweepers from running through you, which is a job well done in itself.
  14. Hot N Cold

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    On the past I always prefer Drain Punch over Earthquake the problem with this is that is more easily walled / killed against common stuff like garbodor rocky / metang / golem / skuntanl aftermath / regirock rocky. While Drain Punch recover a bit, Eq hits harder and more effective, in this way Kanga is limited between more power or health.
  15. Detective Dell

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    Yeah, I agree with HotNCold in the fact that we probably shouldn't be too quick to judge Kangaskhan as a top S rank Pokemon at this ongoing point of the metagame. While it is still one of the most reliable Pokemon to utilize in the tier because of its prominent combination of bulk, power, and the ability to revenge kill a myriad of offensive threats between its popular priority moves and Scrappy, the metagame introduces playstyles (notably bulky offensive) that prepares for this kind of mentality to avoid Kangaskhan from being such a consistent threat to most teams. Kangaskhan does have well-rounded stats, but its damage output in comparison to other Normal-types can be a little more or of a detriment towards more bulky teams, considering how popular they've gotten recently. This makes it a lot easier for specific Normal resists such as Carracosta, Klang, or Regirock to take advantage of Kangaskhan and process to gain momentum on their part as they have an opportunity to setup on it, outright cripple it with status, or just beat it 1v1 by wearing it down enough.

    Even with the lack of an actual resist, most bulky Pokemon as HotNCold mention can usually take 2 or more consecutive hits with its strongest STAB moves. When you're factoring hazards and Double-Edge's recoil upon taking a period roll against itself as it gets walled, Kangaskhan niche of its notably higher bulk than most other offensive Pokemon can be very much made less relevant than one would expect it to be.

    Overall, Kangaskhan is still a very good Pokemon. Coupled with its great ability of Scrappy, one of its defining niches is that it can hit everything safely, while functioning as one of the top revenge killers in a metagame. Kangaskhan is not a bad option to fit on many teams, but the metagame has definitely shaped its way towards responding to its flaws by utilizing bulkier teams that Kangaskhan would have a much harder time breaking through. This means that it will have less of an effective time utilizing its revenge killing capabilities and more time spending on it's overall damage output, which is where its flaws tend to come when you're able to check it. I would say that Mid S rank would be fine for it.
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  16. wiitle

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    I hate to admit this because my favorite pokemon is Kangaskhan, but Mid S definitely feels like a more appropriate ranking.

    Kangaskhan is one of the most one dimensional pokemon in a tier full of pokemon that have multiple viable sets. It is absolutely shut down by things with defense investment and even with EQ as coverage it can really struggle to break past bulky steels and rocks, meanwhile getting hit with damaging moves or getting statused, limiting its capabilities throughout the game or getting enough damage off that its bulk becomes a nonissue for the opponent's team because Kangaskhan doesn't have access to any recovery outside of the weak Drain Punch.

    It is still one of the most reliable revenge killers in the tier and a "glue" pokemon that just rounds off any balance team extremely well with its good bulk, speed, and attack. However, it just isn't the metagame definer that a Top S mon should be.
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  17. Lasagne

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    Kangaskhan is awesome. It is the very definition of a self sufficient Pokemon, and is able to function as possibly the most effective glue in the tier, fitting into pretty much any team that isn't stall. Despite this however, I agree with the above posts in that it should move down to Mid S.

    One of Kangaskhan's main problems, I find, is that sometimes it just misses out on those kills or 2hkos. Especially when using its coverage move in either Drain Punch or Earthquake, it just lacks that bit more power needed to kill. This can be compared to Pokemon like Electivire in RU, though not on such an extreme scale. Earthquake just doesn't do enough damage, even to things like Bastiodon, which are 4x weak to it. This means that Drain Punch is insufficient even more of the time, often unable to get those crucial kills needed. When compared to other offensive normal types, such as Tauros, Zangoose, Swellow or Braviary, its damage output can be disheartening. As wiitle addressed above, it is very much a one trick pony. Any player with experience in NU can predict what you are going to do fairly easily while you have Kangaskhan out. Almost all physically defensive Pokemon shut it down completely, while forcing it to take recoil damage from Double-Edge (which is generally superior to Return). The recoil taken is often very high, due to defensive Pokemon usually having high hp (Alomomola, Lickilicky, Audino etc.). After taking the hit, they can go ahead and just recover off the damage you just did to them, or simply attack you or status you. This leaves Kangaskhan neutered for the entirety of the match, and can simply cause it to be extra baggage.

    The fact remains that it is still a brilliant Pokemon, able to abuse its ability Scrappy to hit everything with its fairly powerful Double-Edge. Kangaskhan has good stats all around and, stat-wise, is a jack of all trades. It has good attack, good speed and surprisingly impressive bulk, able to take hits much better than would be expected for a primarily offensive Pokemon. The main reason it is such a good Pokemon is its unique dual priority, which enables it to become possibly the best revenge killer in NU currently. Kangaskhan can get many kills a match by coming in on a weakened Pokemon, faking it out, then sucker punching as it tries to finish you off, or simply killing with Double-Edge/Earthquake if you know you're faster.

    Unfortunately for Kangaskhan, the metagame has shaped around it, and many walls have risen to be more prominent, which puts Kangaskhan a a disadvantage, as it can no longer abuse its priority to such great effect. Mandibuzz, the most recent and final drop before X/Y, is a massive problem for Kangaskhan. It can easily play around Kanga, roosting off any damage done by Double-Edge and Toxic stalling or simply recoil stalling until Kanga dies. The rise of play styles like bulky offense, and the gradual rise of stall, have also no done any favours to it, as they once again, limit the effectiveness of Kangaskhan's all important priority, which is a massive drawback to it.

    Despite how negative this post has been, Kangaskhan is still a superb Pokemon with a great niche in the current metagame, and is a solid Mid S Rank mon imo.
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  18. ebeast

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    I think there are a few things that should be changed in S-rank other than Kangaskhan. For starters I think Scolipede should be moved up to top S, because it is simply the best Pokemon in NU along with Jynx. It can do a bunch of things and do them all extremely well; be it SubSalac, Bulky Spikes, Sash SD Spikes, Life Orb Spikes, you name it. Pretty much any variation of Scolipede is incredibly useful and there rarely a reason not use it on almost every team. It can support any kind of team by reliably setting up entry hazards (Bulky Spikes for bulkier teams and Sash Spikes for offensive) or sweep teams with SubSalac.

    Next thing is that I think that Seismitoad should be dropped to Top A. Now that the hype has died down, I think this Pokemon should be moved to where it actually belongs. Seismitoad's draw is that it's kind of a jack of all trades; it has above average bulk and average offenses back by good typing and ability. While it is a good Pokemon and can fit a a bunch of roles, none of its sets are actually outstanding, just above average. Offensively its stats are average and it lacks the important Ice Beam meaning it's not hard to wall its coverage. It finds a niche as an offensive Stealth Rock Pokemon due to its above average bulk, but again the set is nothing outstanding. Defensively it has pretty good bulk on both sides and decent offensive stats to make use of Earthquake and Scald, but suffers from a few things: 1) lack of recovery, making it easy to wear down and 2) lack of actual utility other than setting up Stealth Rock. Even with Water Absorb it is still losing to the vast majority of Water-type Pokemon in the tier. Out of the list of Ludicolo, Samurott, Carracosta, Swanna, Seismitoad, and Alomomola, it's only beating Carracosta and stalemating vs opposing Seismitoad and Alomomola. (Unless Grass Knot Seismitoad, in which case lol) Like I said Seismitoad is a useful Pokemon, but certainly not S worthy. Especially since Musharna is now Bottom S, Seismitoad simply does not fit with the others. Musharna should probably be Mid S anyways, but that is for another day.
  19. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I completely agree with moving Scolipede to Top S. It brought a whole playstyle up to the table, that being Spike stacking offense, and it can set up Spikes very reliably while posing a real offensive threat, and it also has amazing coverage. Plus, it can use different variations of Spikes set, and it can overall just be incredible. It's also a good physical sweeper with SD, and you could run BP. Definitely Top S.

    and it is incredibly broken beyond belief, that should be auto Top S.
  20. Hollywood

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    I'm not sure where all the hate for Kangaskhan is suddenly coming from. I think that most of the points about it in the previous posts have been fairly valid, but I also think that many of them are overlooking just how valuable the offensive support that Kangaskhan can provide really is. The fact that having Kangaskhan on your team instantly makes you significantly less vulnerable to weather offense, Charizard, Jynx, and a host of other threats is really huge. This is pretty crucial for bulkier teams, and it's the kind of support that almost every bulky offensive team should have. Bulky offense doesn't always have the room to have a frail revenge killer, such as Jynx or Primeape. Kangashkan takes care of this (and checks the things it does much better than Jynx and Primeape anyways, for that matter). More offensively oriented teams may not want to run a Choice Scarf user because of how easy it is for them to kill momentum in this metagame—having to switch out after revenge killing something can seriously hurt. Kangaskhan can revenge kill a lot of the tier without having to carry a Choice Scarf. With Toxic Spikes (which aren't that hard for bulky teams to come by, mind you), Kangaskhan can wear down its checks and counters by forcing them in to take hazard damage and get poisoned. Aside from that, the only reliable check to Kangaskhan I can think of that has reliable recovery is Cradily.

    Kangashkan is a pretty big reason why bulky offense works so well right now. Whenever I've used it, it has literally never been dead weight for my team. Even Musharna and Misdreavus can be handled with hazard support; neither of them care to take two Double Edges after hazards, and the latter is pretty easily worn down anyways. While yes, the metagame has shifted to a slightly more defensive nature than what it was at the beginning of stage nine, Kangaskhan is also one of the reasons why such a playstyle is even viable to begin with. Its ability to check almost every offensive threat in the tier cannot be ignored, and as such, I feel as though Kangaskhan deserves its to stay in Top S.

    edit: also pede for top s for the same reasons I posted when we originally split the tiers and seismitoad for a if we really have to
  21. Detective Dell

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    Scolipede [​IMG]

    Yeah, I agree that Scolipede definitely defines the metagame enough to very well place itself into top S rank. Scolipede is well-known as one of the most consistent and versatile Pokemon in tier between all of the sets mentioned by ebeast. It is also true that Scolipede has originally trended the metagame towards what most favored it in the form of Spikes Offense, even to this day. With that, Scolipede's presence is what centered the metagame towards wearing down several teams between residual damage from hazards and wearing down Pokemon with a variety of tactics, forming offensive synergy with threats that made it much easier to push things into KO range with the help of Spikes (and Stealth Rock). Such support makes it deceptively easy to formulate cores that favored such playstyle, which typically consist of Scolipede setting up Spikes consistently and utilizing teammates that shared synergy by being able to switch into things that can reliably threaten it and vice-versa.

    Scolipede is one of those Pokemon that has always done something significant in one way or another because of its large array of advantages with its Speed and reliability towards setting up Spikes and/or posing as a significant offensive threat. It is able to fit its playstyle on virtually any kind of offensive team, and the bulky Spikes set isn't too shabby either on more bulky or stallish teams if threatening Musharna and getting up Spikes fast enough is a main priority. Between all of its sets, there isn't very much that can claim to counter it under most circumstances without putting yourself in a position that can very much be capitalized on. When you factor that into how difficult it isn't to stop it from racking up Spikes or the ability to obtain a win condition towards sweeping with Swords Dance or Baton Passing to a recipient to help get around counters, one will realize that there isn't very much stopping it from succeeding in a serious match. These are the kind of scenario situations that can force a lot of reaction towards how to effectively respond and can definitely open up many game-changing opportunities for the user's team.

    Overall, while it does meet its shortcomings towards popular revenge killers and things that can counter it defensively, it heavily influences the metagame to work around it between its versatility. With that, I definitely agree that Scolipede should be in Top S rank.

    Seismitoad [​IMG]

    Regarding Seismitoad, I agree that it's been a bit hyped around and after the time it officially got its nomination into S-rank. While it is very much a solid and fairly versatile Pokemon to make use of, nothing particularly convinces me towards a "change the metagame" factor among facing it. ebeast covered a lot of what's needed to be said, and I think it fits just fine into top A-rank since everything it does usually works itself into play once Seismitoad has gotten the right support. It is one of the most reliable Stealth Rock setters in the tier because of its ability to matchup so well against many other users, and its able to give a lot of its common checks a hard time switching in with its decent utility. It's immunity to Electric is always nice too, but it doesn't match up very well against Eelektross. It is also taken advantaged of by a lot of Grass types and bulky Pokemon that doesn't mind taking a Scald, and doesn't beat a whole lot of setup sweepers that isn't named Carracosta.

    Offensively, its stats are pretty much average like said before and doesn't outright sweep most teams that keep their checks healthy enough when facing the Rain Dance set. While it is able to lure some of its switch-ins with its SubToxic set, it forgoes a lot of its sweeping potential and replaces that with breaking through walls, making it easier to pick off once it has been weakened a bit. It has nice utility in Water Absorb, however. With this, I think everything is bound to sum up towards what we would define a Top A rank Pokemon.
  22. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    I'm fine with Pede for Top-S. It still has notable flaws compared to Jynx (whose only real drawback is Defense) such as overall fragility and inability to perform 2 roles effectively at the same time, but its speed and general unpredictability makes it hard to stop from doing its job. Really the biggest problem with Pede is its short lifespan, which limits how much it can do in a match and often gave me, a Garbodor user, the advantage in the Toxic Spikes war. It's still a defining threat in the meta though, and how well a physical wall takes attacks from Pede can decide its viability, and also caused Spinners to pop up everywhere (not that they're that good anyway).

    Kanga's offensive support allows her to check a myriad of sweepers, something no other pokemon in NU can do as well, if at all. It's true that bulky offense is thriving now, but as Treecko said, Kanga is one of the reasons for that in the first place (though Mandibuzz may also have contributed). Then again, if this is going to be anything like Terrakion's case in OU, in that it defined a style of offense before but decreased in effectiveness against the adapted meta later, there is still a chance that Kanga could drop to mid-S.

    Seismitoad I find is still versatile in that it can perform defensive and offensive roles well. It is also pretty easy to fit onto a team as a result, and while none of its stats are spectacular, they are enough to allow Toad to perform its roles well. Defensive Toad's typing, ability, decent support movepool with SR, Scald and Knock Off, and lone weakness make it a reliable component of defensive teams; offensive Toads can still setup SR while sporting a good matchup against other SR leads, has enough speed for base 70s and can use moves such as Sludge Bomb and Grass Knot to improve its utility; Rain sweeper Toads offer an Electric immunity and/or an SR user that does not kill the team's offensive momentum, while making up for its average power. I'd say that's barely S-Rank to me.
  23. Lasagne

    Lasagne THE HERO APPEARS
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    I was going to bring up Scolipede for Top S in my last post, but I thought that would just make it too long, so I was planning on bringing it up today instead. Oh well, ebeast beat me to it.

    I'm not quite sure why the discussion for Top S Scolipede was stopped, as it is definitely one of the defining forces in this metagame along with Jynx. It is one of the most versatile Pokemon in NU, able to run offensive, bulky, spike stacker, baton passer, or combine any amount of these traits. Once the foes team has been weakened, you can easily set up a Swords Dance on a common Pokemon like Alomomola or Choice locked Sawk/Primeape. One thing unique about Scolipede is its ability to reliably beat Alomomola. Mola can't break Scolipedes Substitute, so it is easy to set up a couple of Swords Dances and proceed to demolish that big Luvdisc with a +4 base 120 power STAB move, possibly also boosted by Swarm if Scolipedes health is low enough. Oh and I forgot to mention that it has awesome Attack, even better speed, and surprisingly good physical defense. Of course, it can't take special hits for shit, but it can actually deal with physical threats pretty well. Its spike stacking set is very good, often enabling you to set up multiple layers of Spikes and Toxic Spikes relatively quickly. With a sash, 1 layer is guaranteed, even against faster threats that can OHKO it, such as Zebstrika with Overheat. The Baton Pass set is incredibly effective. It lets Scolipede go on a sweep if it wants, or just pass its boosts onto another threat that appreciates the Attack and Speed boosts like Sawk. Salac Berry is the most common item on these sets, as you can Sub down to 25%, while Swords Dancing at intervals along the way. When at 25%, with +1 speed and more than likely at least +2 attack, Swarm is also activated so you can fire off boosted Megahorns to annihilate everything, while also out speeding almost everything so they can't revenge kill you. Scolipede has a shit ton of coverage options, which include Earthquake, Rock Slide, Aqua Tail, Superpower and you can even use your secondary STAB of Poison Jab, though it is generally outclassed by one of the coverage moves. I personally like to use a set of Spikes/Substitute/Swords Dance/Megahorn, though I sometimes exchange Sub for Aqua Tail, as I consider it to be the superior coverage option. Scolipede is overall a really solid Pokemon with loads of diversity. It, along with Jynx, almost defines NU right now, which I think is what is required of a Top S Rank Pokemon.
  24. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
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    I agree with Treecko regarding Kanga staying in Top S-rank. It is extremely difficult to wall thanks to Scrappy allowing it to hit ghosts hard and with double priority, decent speed and an extremely powerful Double Edge, not many things can claim to wall it and those that do normally get worn down easily. In a faster, frailer metagame, Kanga can easily deal with numerous Pokemon such as Haunter and Jynx, forcing them to either die or retake damage from hazards. I'd also like to note that nowadays, not many teams carry reliable Normal-type resists apart from Klang as Golem is normally a suicide lead and Probopass does to Earthquake immediately. Kangaskhan has so much power and utility and with entry hazards down, if Kangaskhan can't destroy with its power and speed, then the switches it causes will. I'm not sure why you guys are complaining about Kangaskhan either, since it checks so many fast threats in this meta.
  25. Aasgier

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    Gurdurr, Misdreavus and Seismitoad still wall and stop Kangaskhan and neither of them resist Double Edge. Kanga just does not hit hard enough if it faces something bulky. Coil Serperior or standard Bronzor also cockblocks Kangaskhan. Kanga, while very good, I think it belongs in Mid S-rank.

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