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Gen 5 NU Viability Rankings 2.0

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Raseri, May 26, 2013.

  1. FLCL

    FLCL
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    out of all the dragons in nu the only one that can "wall" charizard is altaria so hp ice is better than dragon pulse in that case
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  2. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    *facepalms*

    I forgot about Hidden Power Ice which is indeed better. *switches moves*

    I'll give it a try.
  3. soulgazer

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    [​IMG]

    For Top-B. Pinsir is really good right now with its awsome Attack stat and physical movepool. Its Swords Dance set is the best set it can run in this metagame, having decent coverage with X-scissor and Earthquake. It also runs Quick Attack which is extremely good with Moxie, putting faster Pokemons thinking they can revenge kill it in danger if Pinsir gets a boost. The snowball effect that Moxie has when Pinsir start KOing its opponents is also really really good, as it make it harder to wall. Pinsir is still wall by Misdreavus though which became really good in this metagame too, but it won't enjoy taking a +2 LO X-scissor either! Pinsir still has its flaws though such as having difficulty finding time to setup, getting revenge kill by Haunter & Co, and taking a single Special hit. Finally, Bug STAB is awsome to take on Musharna!
  4. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is the devil, but nitpicky & unjust mods are worse
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    Pinsir definitely makes for an interesting nomination. Its now below average speed tier is mitigated by its powerful Quick Attack, which after Swords Dance + Moxie makes revenging it very difficult indeed, not dissimilar to Carracosta. It can also pound slower Pokemon like Tangela, Musharna and Alomomola really hard with its STAB and can definitely threaten a good majority of the tier once it sets up....if it sets up. I say this because while Pinsir has good Defense, poor HP and Special Defense makes setting up really difficult. Status also ruins it, while Scolipede at least is immune to Poison and can Baton Pass the boosts so they don't go to waste, or even run Quick Feet (lol) to counter paralysis rather than being forced to Quick Attack everything. That said, its niche of Swords Dancing + priority is unique due to Moxie, better STAB (Samurott and Carracosta does not get past Tangela and Alomo/Seismitoad as easily), and most importantly it does not induce a great risk upon itself just by boosting (Carra and Linoone cannot argue). Pinsir is fine in Top-B imo.

    There is less and less reason to run Weezing anymore: Mold Breaker Sawk owns it, Misdreavus is actually immune to Fighting than just resisting it while still stopping Bugs and Grounds, it cannot absorb Toxic Spikes, isn't as fast as Missy (who can Taunt Garbo, whereas Weezing cannot), and isn't as versatile as Missy who knows Heal Bell and Nasty Plot. Lack of a Pursuit weakness and countering Golurk + Scolipede (Flamethrower) + Gurdurr (Clear Smog) better than Missy is really the only reason you want to use this thing, but the former doesn't matter much since Taunt Skunk can still Crunch you to death. Oh, and Weezing has exploitable Special Defense, while it is very hard to KO Missy with any unboosted attack. Low-B from me.
    soulgazer likes this.
  5. azureleaf17

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    I've used Dragonair before, and it's a strange Pokemon. Though I love it to death and have used it on half the NU teams I've used, it really is outclassed by a lot of other Dragons in specific roles.

    As a bulky Dragon, I think Altaria outclasses it; although Dragonair has superior bulk, Shed Skin/Marvel Scale, and a lack of a weakness to Rock (and Stealth Rock) and quad weakness to Ice, Altaria has Roost (which someone mitigates its weaknesses as well), Heal Bell with Natural Cure, and Leftovers, as well as a typing that gives it a resistance to the Fighting-type attackers and Ground-type coverage running around NU. As a pure attacker, it's outclassed by Fraxure, which is arguably the best Dragon-type in the tier because of Dragon Dance and good, powerful neutral coverage backed by 117 base Attack.

    Like most of the Dragon-types in NU, the only things it can viably use are bulky tank or support sets. However, the only real niche it has over Shelgon, Gabite, and Zweilous is the aforementioned Shed Skin or Marvel Scale, the former of which grants it a semi-immunity to status and the latter of which blasts its defenses through the roof if using a RestTalk set. But Dragonair fails to stand out because each Dragon-type mentioned here has something that gives it an edge over its competitors for a team slot: Shelgon is significantly stronger in physical defense, Gabite has access to Stealth Rock as well as a powerful secondary STAB, and Zweilous has the strongest offensive stats because of Hustle as well as a double-edged secondary typing (weak to Fighting, but immune to Psychic). Every one is crippled by a lack of reliable recovery and inability to use Leftovers (though Eviolite helps their defenses), or depends on the unreliable RestTalk set that hampers immediate offense and leaves only two moveslots to work with, usually taken by the predictable Outrage and Dragon Dance. It seems that most of the Dragons in NU are rather underwhelming simply because, as pre-evos, they lack the stats to attack the moment they come in and serve better as support that is probably better left to other Pokemon. Low-C or mid-C is as high as any of these dragons should go. (Seeing Zweilous sitting in mid-B is a little strange, though I might just be jumping to conclusions because I rarely see it or use it myself, but I don't want to overly discuss things I don't use.)

    Just as a personal story, I used a weird set on Dragonair, which is Dragon Tail/Dragon Dance/Sleep Talk/Rest with max HP and Special Defense. Even though using a speed-boosting move with a move that has negative priority, it worked. With Rocks and two layers of Spikes, I brought it in mid-game and proceeded to stall and set up for over thirty turns with pseudo-priority phazing. Not saying the set is good, but it was hilarious.
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  6. Lasagne

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    ok time to add my 2 cents on sawk.

    sawk is a great Pokemon, there's no denying that. It also has plenty of flaws, but generally the positives outshine the negatives so its all good. Sawk is, and always has been, a powerful wallbreaker that can 2hko the large majority of the tier. Any Pokemon that can beat sawk/not be 2hkod automatically becomes better. Examples of Pokemon that - to be honest - would not receive as much usage if sawk was gone include Musharna, Misdreavus, and even some stuff that gets 2hkod like alomomola and weezing. I think the fact that all these Pokemon have risen in usage because of this one Pokemon is testament enough to how good sawk is. Try and find a well put together description of mushy or missy that doesn't mention the fact that they beat sawk. You won't. Obviously these Pokemon are great anyway, but the fact that they beat sawk just gives them that much more popularity. While sawk certainly isn't as good as it has been in the past, I think it still deserves that place at Low S.

    also, many people are arguing that because sawk doesn't do multiple roles well, it doesn't deserve s rank. Please, PLEASE read the OP. The definition for S rank explicitly says it doesn't have to do multiple roles efficiently; it can do just one extremely well. Here it is if you're too lazy to go to page one:
    sawk does its one job - wallbreaking - extremely well and it is unmatched in the tier for its amazing wallbreaking potential. Every team will have a Musharna, Misdreavus, or Alomomola +a ghost simply because otherwise they will lose to sawk. As tennisace said, the fact that your opponent will be hesitant to send out their hazard setter as a lead if you are carrying sawk is a potentially GOOD thing for you. You can easily use this to your advantage and send out somehing like Kangaskhan on their predicted Jynx. Sawk performs this one role extremely effectively, which is why it should stay in Low S.
  7. ryan

    ryan "hillary or trump?"
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    My main issue with the entire above argument is:
    So Sawk is really well prepared for in the current meta and thus isn't as effective as it once was, which means it should remain S-rank? It's the same thing as what happened with Carracosta. It was a really unprepared for offensive threat that was really effective mostly because of this. It's still a really great Pokemon, but more people keep it in mind while teambuilding which makes it far less effective than it used to be.

    On top of that, Musharna, Misdreavus, Alomomola, etc. would all still be used a lot, even if Sawk wasn't in the tier; they all have amazing utility outside of checking Sawk and are generally fantastic Pokemon. The fact that Sawk doesn't function in multiple roles well isn't the only thing that keeps it from being an S-rank threat. When you say "please, PLEASE read the OP," I'm thinking, please, PLEASE read the rest of the posts in this thread. The fact that Sawk is really well prepared for, it being so one-dimensional, its average-at-best Speed, and its reliance on Choice Band to be an effective wallbreaker all keep it from being S-rank to me. I also don't think it's "unmatched" as a wallbreaker; I fear Zangoose, Charizard, Exeggutor (or at least I would if people would use Specs more), etc. far more than Sawk when I look at team preview.
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  8. Blast

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    I really don't think Dragonair is outclassed at all as a bulky DD user / pivot / status absorber. Dragonair's two abilities push it far ahead as a RestTalker, since Shed Skin can potentially wake you up earlier and Marvel Scale actually takes advantage of Rest's sleeping status. While RestTalk obviously isn't the most reliable strategy out there, Dragonair makes the best out of it and is way more reliable than Shelgon who relies on the same method of healing. Meanwhile, Shelgon has higher physical bulk, but lacks many useful physical resistances to make use of it, and has significantly lower special bulk than Nair so it can't use its Fire- or Electric-type resistances as effectively. Dragonair is also way better than Altaria as a status absorber, since even though Altaria has Natural Cure and Heal Bell, the former requires switching out which compounds its SR weakness and the latter can be easily stalled out of PP. Nair is definitely outclassed offensively, but that's not really the point here. Dragonair has a lot of things going for it as a bulkier Dragon, and I feel it's a bit more reliable at what it does than its competition.
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  9. Lasagne

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    see this is why I don't present arguments; I'm bad at it.

    I see what you're saying, and its true. I probably should have read over what I wrote this morning before posting (I wrote it last night but internet cut off before I could post. Luckily smogon saved a draft). Even with my argument dismantled cos I suck at this, I still don't completely support the move to top a. I'd be fine with it, but I'd also be fine with it staying in low s. I guess I'm neutral now :/
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  10. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is the devil, but nitpicky & unjust mods are worse
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    Pretty much this. Between the boosting Dragons of NU, Dragonair seems to have the best of 3 worlds: it is a better RestTalker than Shelgon due to its abilities improving its effectiveness and is also faster, it absorbs status way better than Altaria to accomplish an effective boosting role (in terms of outright walling, Altaria is better, but Nair isn't meant to just wall), and it has the offensive potential comparable to Fraxure (not better I will admit). We've already acknowledged that Nair is not as good as Frax offensively, but this is a nomination for Top-C, not Low-B. Dat Blast has already mentioned many advantages Dragonair has over each of its Dragon brethren.

    Also
    Dragonair has better speed and reliability in RestTalking (Shed Skin cures, Marvel Scale tanks more hits while asleep), as well as better special bulk and Marvel Scale patching up its lesser Defense. I don't even know how to compare Gabite with Dragonair: their resistances are very different from each other, while one knows Dragon Dance & the other knows Stealth Rock. Zweilous may give some legitimate competition as a RestTalking tank, but it cannot boost and has more weaknesses.

    The beauty about Dragons is that even though the combo is super obvious, it is not necessarily easy to stop. Dragonair does not care about Probopass at all for the most part, while Metang can be beaten down if it lacks Psych Up or does not get enough Meteor Mash boosts, and those are the two more common Steels in the tier. Granted, Bastiodon can Roar, Mawile can Taunt, and Lairon just breaks it in two, but those are seen much less and are generally easier to deal with teammates.

    It's true that the Dragons tend to lack the killer stats to wreck house on turn 1 (bar Fraxure, which is why it's so good), but most of the offensive Dragons do have this sexy boosting move that you've probably heard of :/ and considering the rarity of Dragon resists in NU (even RU has plenty of viable Steels D: ), they have a good chance to clean house once they nab the boost(s).
  11. Celever

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    This may seem like we're stacking top tier threats for S-Rank but there is a Pokemon I entirely forgot about while the Charizard discussion was piping up.

    [​IMG]

    Once stage 9 started Misdreavus got good. She already had recognition for being a reliable check to Sawk, stopping it spamming Close Combat all the time. Scolipede, Primeape and (lol) Munchlax dropped and Misdreavus was immediately able to wall all of them. It's not just bulk that Misdreavus is good at, though, as she is diverse enough to run fully offensive sets, including Nasty Plot sweeper which I know lots of the neverused community loves. With access to moves such as Taunt, Perish Song and Heal Bell Misdreavus even has a lot of utility. This is really more of a discussion sparker than anything, as I know you know how good Misdreavus is. Missy 4 Low-S!
  12. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is the devil, but nitpicky & unjust mods are worse
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    Misdreavus is good, but not S-Rank good imo. Her support sets are very reliable as far as utility goes, but her lack of reliable recovery usually leads to her downfall. She is also pretty vulnerable to threats she cannot burn or Taunt, like Charizard, Swellow, and Zangoose. If she has Shadow Ball, Substituting Normal-types tend to have her way with her, whereas using Foul Play means she cannot effectively deal with the Fighting-types she counters. She also tends to compete with Musharna on the team as a Fighting switch-in + Heal Beller, and Missy is usually only chosen due to her spinblocking abilities as she does not have reliable recovery like Mushy does; Mandibuzz also stallbreaks much better than Missy (again due to recovery and also STAB Foul Play). That said, being the most reliable spinblocker in the tier is a huge merit for Missy, even if it happens to be the only reason you use her.

    Offensive Missy has a decent mix power, bulk and speed which can surprise opponents, but that mix means she doesn't excel at a particular stat. Haunter has much better offensive stats than Missy, namely the crucial speed tier and much greater off-the-bat offensive power + Life Orb. Missy can't afford Life Orb as she needs the bulk to survive attacks from numerous faster Pokemon, and even then the lack of bulk investment means the loss in bulk is still pretty substantial.

    Missy has great supportive capabilities while still packing a decent punch and other moves to fight back, but she does have flaws that hold her back, the biggest one being the lack of reliable recovery (a trait she shares with Seismitoad, who isn't S for much the same reasons). Top-A is still a good position for her though.
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  13. C AllStar

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    Misdreavus is definitely not worthy of S rank. While it can check certain dangerous pokemon such as Tauros, Scolipede, Sawk etc, its lack of reliable recovery and reliance on eviolite is really a major downfall. The former disallows it to keep checking the pokemon it is supposed to check over time while the latter prevents it from using leftovers and makes it not as bulky as it seems. For example, CB Sawk can actually guarantee 2HKO it with Earthquake when it is under 85%. While it can switch out to an resistance in that situation, Missy is severely weakened and cannot do much latter in the battle. Top A should be fair for Missy.

    The thing I actually want to talk about is Muk. After testing it for some time, I find it a really effective glue for the team. My favorite is a set with Curse/ Poison Jab/ Brick Break/ Shadow Sneak and 252hp 252atk 4spdef with Adament nature which I've been using for four to five months. It is an surprisingly effective tank capable to check many threats early to mid game and sweep late game. It can check numerous special attackers thanks to its immense special bulk even without investment. The attack evs are important to weaken its check and counters late game while allowing to have a decent chance to OHKO Jynx with Shadow Sneak after rocks. Things it can check include Ludicolo, Expert Belt Eel, Primeape, Serperior etc. What's more impressive is it can survive Specs Charizarad's Fire Blast, Musharna's Psychic and even LO Jynx's Psychic. It is then able to deal immense damage to them with Poison Jab + Shadow Sneak. It is usually able to check a few threatening offensive threats for the team during the whole match.

    Beside doing well against offensive threats, Muk is even more a bitch for stall to deal with thanks to its great match up with stall staples. Alomomola cannot hurt it and is its best set up bait. Tangela cannot do anything to it when sleep clause is active while being 2HKOed by Poison Jab. Roselia is nearly the same case except being neutral to Poison but has much less physical bulk. Probopass and Bastiodon are 4x weak to Brick Break. What makes it so good against stall is Poison Jab's 30% poison rate, allowing it to neuter so called counters such as Misdreavus, Mandibuzz, Musharna etc. Really the only things in stall that is good against Muk are Golbat, which is not common at all, and Weezing, which is nearly outclassed by Misdreavus.

    The other set I've test is CB Muk. It does nearly the same thing as the offensive Curse version except having even more immediate power with CB Gunk Shot. However, the leftovers recovery is missed to reduce the chance of some 2HKOes such as CB Sawk's Close Combat. The ability to set up on Alomomola and stuff is also missed. CB Gunk Shot is immensely powerful though, capable of 2HKOing standard 104/252+ Alomomola 100% after SR and spikes and one round of protect, just that it tends to miss a lot.

    I've not tested other sets such as SpDef Curse, SubPunch, Fast Taunt and Mixed but I'm already quite impressed by Muk's constant great performance. I think Top B is a better sport for Muk.
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  14. Celever

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    I would like to point out that Misdreavus does get Pain Split, and though people consider this unreliable recover honestly it does the trick most of the time.
  15. soulgazer

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    Misdreavus is fine in Top-A. Misdreavus is indeed really good right now, but she's not up there with other S-rank Pokemon like Samurott and Kangaskhan. Misdreavus has a 4MSS, having to choose between Taunt, Pain Split, Will-O-Wisp, Perish Song, Shadow Ball, and Foul Play, which can stop it from doing as much as you would want it to. Sorry for this little post but I feel like Punchshroom pretty much said every reason as to why Misdreavus should stay Top-A.
  16. Othesemo

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    These are my thoughts on the matter as well, except Missy also has to consider Heal Bell. Although Missy can be used to check a very large number of threats, she really can't do all of them simultaneously- every move you chose over another is another couple of pokemon that can beat you. You could use her as a spin blocker with Shadow Ball and such, but then she's a walking invitation for Normal Types to sub up. You could try using foul play instead, but now the two best spinners in the tier take fuck all from your attacks and can just sit there waiting to burn you with Lava Plume or Scald, respectively. If you don't run Pain Split it's incredibly easy to wear you down, and if you don't run taunt you're helpless against stall (especially if you opted for Foul Play). Not running Heal Bell means that Toxic screws you over, not running Will-o-Wisp means that Sawk can just Earthquake you to death. You get the idea.

    Especially when held up next to something like Musharna, who can effectively cockblock half the tier with ~3 moves, I think Missy should stay in A Rank.
  17. Lasagne

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    Misdreavus definitely isn't s rank worthy. Adding on to what soulgazer said, it also wants heal bell or substitute (though not both of course), so that's 8 moves trying to fit onto one Pokemon. Yeah, that's not gonna work out for you. The utility is, undeniably, a great set, but it doesn't make the little ghost worthy of s rank. My favourite set is taunt+np, but the problem with that is the lack of bulk investment makes you relatively frail and you will take a lot of damage from any decently strong move. It is very effective at cleaning up late game and dealing with Alomomola (as long as you don't switch in on a toxic). Pretty much any specially defensive Pokemon walls it, however, especially stuff like lickilicky which phases with dragon tail and roselia which can do a decent amount of damage with giga drain and potentially poison with sludge bomb. Also its gonna be walled by diggersby if you run tbolt over hp fighting (which I do). Diggersby 2 strong
    so yeah, it deserves to stay in Top A and go no higher

    edit: ninjad by othesmo
  18. Raseri

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    Changes to be made this time:

    I have 2 major nominations right now:

    Roselia is really great right now, she can set up Spikes, hit hard. Her typing allows her to tank a lot of really strong hits. Being a great spiker alone should be enough for Top B. I could see her pushing for A, but that might be stretching it.

    Probopass is simpy a great SR user right now. Owns Liepard teams, has magnet pull and sturdy. Volt Switch is just an amazing move on a SR lead. It is also a good answer to many forms of Charizard, and nearly al forms of Jynx! Sounds like a Pokemon that could be A material in this metagame :). Feel free to discuss these and any other potential changes you'd like to see.
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  19. ryan

    ryan "hillary or trump?"
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    On top of all the qualities you listed about Probopass, it is a slow pivot and a full stop to Sub BU Braviary, making it a great Pokemon for offensive and balanced teams. Even better, it can trap Steel-types to open up a sweep for Jynx or Swellow later on in the match. While Steel-types aren't that common, Probopass will pretty much never be dead weight because of all of the other things it can do even if the opponent isn't using one. I use Probopass a lot now because of all of these great qualities, and I'm very supportive of a rise to Low A-rank. Also supporting Roselia for Top B-rank, but that's a less controversial nomination that I'm sure few people will oppose.
  20. scorpdestroyer

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    Raseri you forgot to move Weezing down

    I definitely agree to move Roselia up, it's a really good Pokemon. I've never used the offensive set, but the specially defensive one is really good as it can set up Spikes while being a really good tank to all kinds of special hits (including some non-STAB super effective ones) while not being extreme setup fodder in the process.

    I wouldn't mind seeing Probopass in Top B either, though tbh I think Low A is pushing it a little far because Probopass is still 4x weak to Ground and Fighting aka 2 of the most common attacking types in NU and unlike other SR Pokemon, cannot absorb Volt Switch or use Sturdy if it wants Magnet Pull
  21. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Oh yeah I was actually going to nominate Roselia for Top B, but I forgot to. Anyways, I'm going to support it moving up; it's imo like the second best spiker behind Scolipede, and it has a lot of special bulk with Eviolite to set up Spikes very reliably, along with the Grass and Water resistances, and can be a good special tank. Roselia is no sitting suck either; it has a very neat 100 Special Attack along with two good STABs to work with; this also means it can go offensive spiking and also harass common physical walls such as Alomomola and Tangela, and Natural Cure is a great ability. Also, it works quite well with Misdreavus. Top B for sure.

    Probopass is pretty good imo, because it's a great SR pivot that can Volt Switch out of things, and Magnet Pull is also kinda neat with Earth Power to handle Metang and the like; in general it also has a pretty awesome defensive typing, I can support it moving up.
  22. Blast

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    Supporting Probopass for Low-A just because of the sheer utility it has. It's honestly really good right now: it sets SR, traps, pivots, checks Zard and Jynx, owns SubBU Braviary, and a lot of other stuff. My favorite Probopass right now is definitely Trapper, since it makes for a really cool partner for a ton of things like Swellow, CM Mush, or Jynx. It's the only trapper that can actually guarantee some damage on Steel-types, which just makes it all the better. The slow Volt Switch is also just amazing for it, since it makes an amazing partner for frail attackers and just makes it that much harder to counter / switch into. Sure it's weak to Ground and Fighting, but it has a shitton of resistances to make up for that, and its slow Volt Switch lets it escape its switch-ins (bar Ground-types, admittedly).

    (Also Ground Gem Earth Power says hi to Ditto >:] )
  23. ryan

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    The good thing about its 4x weakness is how easy it is to play around. Musharna, for example, takes on pretty much every Ground-type in NU really easily bar like CB Shadow Punch from Iron Fist Golurk, and it beats every Fighting-type really easily, making it pretty much the ideal partner for Probopass. Musharna also has Baton Pass to form a cool slow VoltTurn core with Probopass. Plus, Probopass covers Musharna's Ghost-, Bug-, and Dark-type weaknesses fairly well (it particularly bones Skuntank), barring like Pinsir and the rare EQ Scolipede. And it's not like much carries surprise Ground- and Fighting-type attacks. It's pretty predictable for the most part. If you make a team with Probopass that doesn't cover its weaknesses (which it's not hard to cover them), then it's going to be pretty bad, but I personally don't think its main flaws hold it back from being A-rank. Still, I understand the arguments against A-rank, so I'll leave it to Raseri.
  24. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer it's a skorupi egg
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    I won't deny that Probopass is good, but what irks me and convinces me that it should go only to Top B at most, is that it literally invites Ground-types into it. Each time I used Probopass, I had to be careful when attacking with either of my moves or setting up Stealth Rock, because any Ground-type can easily switch in for free (apart from maybe Golem on Earth Power, but it's pretty safe 75% of the time). I mean sure, you can always switch to cover the Ground-type move, but at the same time you give the opponent a free turn to do whatever he likes. For instance, Seismitoad gets to use Stealth Rock for free, and Golurk (coincidentally the #1 used Pokemon) gets a chance to unleash its powerful attack. And the switch out of Probopass is usually really obvious as well, so it's still really tricky avoiding Ground-types because the moment they come in, all it takes is one good prediction from the opponent to put you under a lot of pressure, while you can't do much but switch in case Probopass dies. Probopass is a great Pokemon, I agree, but its constant fear of Ground-types switching in on its Volt Switch, Power Gem, Stealth Rock, or Thunder Wave kind of prevents it from doing its job exceptionally well, causing it to lose momentum every time they switch in; other Volt Switch users suffer less from these because they have other means of defeating Ground-types, while Probopass has no way of beating them save weird shit like HP Grass. And don't forget unexpected super effective attacks ruining your day, such as Superpower from Braviary or Earthquake from Metang; while they are uncommon, they have their merits and reasons to be used. Probopass is an amazing team supporter so I have no qualms moving it to Top B, but I think Low A is a stretch due to its vulnerability to Ground-types and the fact that their very presence on the opponent's team prevents Probopass from doing its job effectively
  25. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is the devil, but nitpicky & unjust mods are worse
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

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    Much agreed, Probopass loses to every Ground-type in a similiar fashion to how Camerupt loses to every Water-type, except Camerupt can actually go offensive with Rock Polish and hit its switch-ins with STAB Earth Power off a decent 105 base SpA. Probopass has moves like Magnet Rise, but needs to be used on the switch as it is otherwise too slow to prevent its demise. Even then, Probopass has a slight case of 4MSS. To counter SubBU Braviary (one of its biggest draws), Probopass needs Power Gem and Toxic. You also need Power Gem if you want to stand up to Charizard and Jynx at all. If Stealth Rock is occupying a slot, the last move is left to Earth Power and Volt Switch, both of which are vital in affecting Probo's performance. Earth Power allows you to actually do something to the Steels you trap and prevent them from phazing you away or simply outdamaging you, but Volt Switch allows you to switch in teammates safely, making great use of its pathetic speed and impressive mixed bulk. Lacking either can visibly affect it in battle, and Probo is something you cannot really "tech", making it very predictable. I've already elaborated in this post that altering even one of Probo's moves can drastically reduce its efficiency. Basically, if you see a Probo, you can bet your ass it's going to be the same one most of the time; anything else would just be less effective.

    Granted, it's still great utility-wise, so I support for Top-B, but not Low-A.

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