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Gen 5 NU Viability Rankings 2.0

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Raseri, May 26, 2013.

  1. Dat Blast

    Dat Blast feel god's wrath
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    Supporting Probopass for Low-A just because of the sheer utility it has. It's honestly really good right now: it sets SR, traps, pivots, checks Zard and Jynx, owns SubBU Braviary, and a lot of other stuff. My favorite Probopass right now is definitely Trapper, since it makes for a really cool partner for a ton of things like Swellow, CM Mush, or Jynx. It's the only trapper that can actually guarantee some damage on Steel-types, which just makes it all the better. The slow Volt Switch is also just amazing for it, since it makes an amazing partner for frail attackers and just makes it that much harder to counter / switch into. Sure it's weak to Ground and Fighting, but it has a shitton of resistances to make up for that, and its slow Volt Switch lets it escape its switch-ins (bar Ground-types, admittedly).

    (Also Ground Gem Earth Power says hi to Ditto >:] )
  2. Hollywood

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    The good thing about its 4x weakness is how easy it is to play around. Musharna, for example, takes on pretty much every Ground-type in NU really easily bar like CB Shadow Punch from Iron Fist Golurk, and it beats every Fighting-type really easily, making it pretty much the ideal partner for Probopass. Musharna also has Baton Pass to form a cool slow VoltTurn core with Probopass. Plus, Probopass covers Musharna's Ghost-, Bug-, and Dark-type weaknesses fairly well (it particularly bones Skuntank), barring like Pinsir and the rare EQ Scolipede. And it's not like much carries surprise Ground- and Fighting-type attacks. It's pretty predictable for the most part. If you make a team with Probopass that doesn't cover its weaknesses (which it's not hard to cover them), then it's going to be pretty bad, but I personally don't think its main flaws hold it back from being A-rank. Still, I understand the arguments against A-rank, so I'll leave it to Raseri.
  3. scorpdestroyer

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    I won't deny that Probopass is good, but what irks me and convinces me that it should go only to Top B at most, is that it literally invites Ground-types into it. Each time I used Probopass, I had to be careful when attacking with either of my moves or setting up Stealth Rock, because any Ground-type can easily switch in for free (apart from maybe Golem on Earth Power, but it's pretty safe 75% of the time). I mean sure, you can always switch to cover the Ground-type move, but at the same time you give the opponent a free turn to do whatever he likes. For instance, Seismitoad gets to use Stealth Rock for free, and Golurk (coincidentally the #1 used Pokemon) gets a chance to unleash its powerful attack. And the switch out of Probopass is usually really obvious as well, so it's still really tricky avoiding Ground-types because the moment they come in, all it takes is one good prediction from the opponent to put you under a lot of pressure, while you can't do much but switch in case Probopass dies. Probopass is a great Pokemon, I agree, but its constant fear of Ground-types switching in on its Volt Switch, Power Gem, Stealth Rock, or Thunder Wave kind of prevents it from doing its job exceptionally well, causing it to lose momentum every time they switch in; other Volt Switch users suffer less from these because they have other means of defeating Ground-types, while Probopass has no way of beating them save weird shit like HP Grass. And don't forget unexpected super effective attacks ruining your day, such as Superpower from Braviary or Earthquake from Metang; while they are uncommon, they have their merits and reasons to be used. Probopass is an amazing team supporter so I have no qualms moving it to Top B, but I think Low A is a stretch due to its vulnerability to Ground-types and the fact that their very presence on the opponent's team prevents Probopass from doing its job effectively
  4. Punchshroom

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    Much agreed, Probopass loses to every Ground-type in a similiar fashion to how Camerupt loses to every Water-type, except Camerupt can actually go offensive with Rock Polish and hit its switch-ins with STAB Earth Power off a decent 105 base SpA. Probopass has moves like Magnet Rise, but needs to be used on the switch as it is otherwise too slow to prevent its demise. Even then, Probopass has a slight case of 4MSS. To counter SubBU Braviary (one of its biggest draws), Probopass needs Power Gem and Toxic. You also need Power Gem if you want to stand up to Charizard and Jynx at all. If Stealth Rock is occupying a slot, the last move is left to Earth Power and Volt Switch, both of which are vital in affecting Probo's performance. Earth Power allows you to actually do something to the Steels you trap and prevent them from phazing you away or simply outdamaging you, but Volt Switch allows you to switch in teammates safely, making great use of its pathetic speed and impressive mixed bulk. Lacking either can visibly affect it in battle, and Probo is something you cannot really "tech", making it very predictable. I've already elaborated in this post that altering even one of Probo's moves can drastically reduce its efficiency. Basically, if you see a Probo, you can bet your ass it's going to be the same one most of the time; anything else would just be less effective.

    Granted, it's still great utility-wise, so I support for Top-B, but not Low-A.
  5. Lasagne

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    I agree that Probopass deserves to move up at least one rank, but as with others, I don't believe it quite deserves low a. There is no denying the big nosed rock is an excellent rock setter and one of the best bulky pivots in NU. The slow Volt Switch it has access to allows it to give frail Pokemon like Jynx and Zangoose an easy switch in. This is incredibly useful, as you don't want these Pokemon taking much damage at all while they try to sweep (you need the health for an inevitable priority move or status damage in zangooses case). It checks many normal and flying Pokemon with ease thanks to its resistances, and is also a great answer to the two most threatening Pokemon in nu: Jynx and Scolipede. Unfortunately, the 4x weaknesses to fighting and ground, two of NUs most common attacking types, really hold it back from achieving as much as it could. As scorpdestroyer stated, it invites ground types in, as almost any ground type feels perfectly safe switching in on most of probopass's preferred moves, such as volt switch, power gem, thunder wave or even just switching in as probo lays rocks. You can never feel particularly safe with it if there's a ground type on the opponents team, as they can easily come in for free and cause an immediate threat. Its not hard to predict the switch out, so if they do that correctly, you are put at a massive disadvantage. Say for example a Golurk switches in as you set stealth rock, then you are immediately in a bad situation. It may just choose to set stealth rocks, so you can toxic it to start a timer. On the other hand, it might outright attack you with an earthquake, and bam dead Probopass (if you don't have sturdy activated). If you predict the earthquake and switch out to say, a braviary, he may very well predict this play and go for the banded iron fist ice punch. Now your braviary is dead. You see how quickly a situation can turn bad if you don't play carefully with Probopass. This is the biggest flaw holding it back from low a for me. I think it should move to Top B.

    Roselia definitely also deserves to move up. Its great in the tier right now for multiple reasons. With the awesome special defense awarded to it by Eviolite and its natural good stats, Roselia is possibly the tiers best counter to some Pokemon such as Ampharos, Electabuzz and Shiftry. Its also a fantastic check to rain in general, beating Seismitoad with ease and taking ice beams from Ludicolo and Gorebyss without worry. Roselia is one of NUs big 3 spike setters along with Scolipede and Garbodor, and is arguably the best for full stall (its what I use). It is very good at its job in spike setting, and can usually guarantee at least a couple of layers. It, along with the other two setters, can also set toxic spikes, which is very useful on many teams, though usually you will only be running spikes. A fantastic ability in Natural Cure means that you will have a hard time wearing it down with status, especially seeing as it is immune to toxic anyway. It has reliable recovery in Synthesis, and Rest is arguably even better, as the sleep is cured upon switching out. A physically defensive set can be used as a good check to Pokemon like tauros without Zen Headbutt, and the surprise factor is often useful. It performs exceptionally well when paired with Alomomola, for many reasons. Roselia can take on all of the special electric and grass types that trouble the giant fish, while it beats most of the physical Pokemon that can do a number on Roselia, plus fire types. Alomomolas wish also fully heals Roselia thanks to the massive difference in HP, so that's extremely useful. I think Roselia is worthy of Low A instead of Probopass, especially if its fellow spiker garbodor is there, as I consider rose equal if not better.
    DTC likes this.
  6. Chronic Smash

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    I would to nominate Tangela for A rank.Tangela can switch in into most Physical attackers.It also walls some of the common pokes in the meta namely Primeape,Physical Samurott,Coil Eelektross,Sawk,Kangaskhan,Zangoose,Tauros,etc.

    Tangela has everything a wall could wish for:A great ability in Regenerator,access to Sleep Powder,reliable recovery in Leech Seed.And decent HP to back up it's amazing Defense after Eviolite.I think it's the best Physical Wall in the Metagame

    I like using a set that not too many people use on Tangela.A SubSeed variant.You guys might think who runs that? Tangela is too slow to use Sub.Well most physical attackers do less that 25% damage to Tangela,which means they won't break the sub.

    I can give you some calcs if you don't believe me:

    Sawk can't even break Tangela's Substitute with a Super Effective Ice Punch which shows you how bulky this noodle ball is.It walls Sawk to no end which means he is totally forced to switch out if it doesn't want to get seeded,put to sleep or make Tangela get another Substitute.

    Primeape sure can U-Turn out when Tangela comes in,but if Tangela has a Sub up it won't be knocked out because it has amazing defense with Eviolite,U-Turn isn't particularilly strong and it isn't STAB.

    Now Golurk which is like one of the best Leads of this metagame will probably be scared of Tangela.Sure an Ice Punch will break Tangela's sub but it does a pathetic amount of damage to Tangela.Which means it's forced to take a Giga Drain which most likely will knock it out and the damage Golurk did to Tangela will be nule after the Giga Drain.

    Also a nice thing to point out is the fact that I run sub,I like running speed EV's to outspeed Alomomola to be sure to not get hit by Toxic,I also like outspeeding a bunch of walls that try to set up on Tangela's face like Musharna,opposing Tangela,Audino,etc.

    So that's why I would nominate Tangela to A rank,it's the best physical wall of the NU metagame.So what you guys think? You agree with me? :D
  7. Dat Blast

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    omfg liepard's so broken help I keep hitting myself oh god assist spam liepard for s-rank pls.

    No, but seriously, Pivot Liepard is really effective right now. It's a really cool Pursuit trapper / disruptor that can easily trap most Psychics / Ghosts and stop setup sweepers in their tracks. Also thanks to Sucker Punch it can serve as a super solid revenge killer with decent power, and unlike Skunk, relies much less on Sucker Punch to revenge kill since it's significantly faster. Although it can't really break through defensive teams, it's still really effective against them since it can lock things into Heal Bell or Protect and then U-turn out into a better matchup. Also, it can actually gain momentum instead of losing it like Skunk often does because of Encore + U-turn. It fits a lot better on offensive teams in general because of its momentum-grabbing abilities, and though it does lose bulk and stallbreaking tactics like what Skunk has, I think its Speed and access to Prankster Encore and U-turn are plenty enough to put it on par. Obviously I'm not actually nomming it for S-Rank, but I think it deserves a spot in Low-A.

    Tangela's decent, but imo it's fine in Top-B. For starters, it just really isn't a great time to be a Grass-type in NU; with Scolipede, Jynx, and Charizard roaming everywhere Tangela just doesn't match up well against most well-built teams. It's definitely damn bulky on the physical side but its special bulk leaves a lot to be desired, meaning it can get forced out pretty easily even by neutral special hits and as a result just isn't as great a wall as it could be. As a Grass-type, Tangela faces a ton of competition both offensively and defensively by stuff like Exeggutor or Roselia, the former of which is super versatile and hard to play around, and the latter can set up Spikes and absorb opposing Toxic Spikes. As it stands, Eggy even does SubSeed better than Tangela thanks to its Psychic STAB and Sitrus Berry + Harvest combo.
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  8. Robert Alfons

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    I support Liepard for Low A. While Skuntank may have some actual bulk, Liepard just holds way more utility by being able to trap more things reliably. Its great speed and prankster encore really help in its ability to trap; Jynx, for example, can be succesfully eliminated by Skuntank, but only if you play the mindgame well or else Skuntank will take a lot of ouchies. Liepard has enough speed to outspeed every non-scarfed Jynx, which means that all you have to do to revenge kill is press Pursuit, whereas Skuntank still has to choose between Sucker Punch and Pursuit. Encore also allows Liepard to trap many setup sweepers successfully (including shit like Shell Smash Carracosta, who actually is forced to bring its defense down to the point that it is dead no matter what hits it), something Skuntank could only dream of.

    Basically, while Liepard's sad bulk means that it can't take any hit, its added speed, prankster and u-turn mean that he can assure himself to trap things that Skuntank can't, obtain momentum and just add so much more utility to a team than any other Pokemon can, not to mention Liepard can actually run many more sets, meaning that seeing Liepard on your opponent's team isn't a dead giveaway that your psychics and ghosts gotta play careful. Sad bulk and no additional poison typing like Skuntank can't prevent it from being Low A for me.
  9. Othesemo

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    While I don't have anything against Liepard moving, I would like to point out that carracosta is notable for being one of the few set up sweepers that doesn't care about encore liepard- after a Shell Smash, it can outspeed Liepard's prankster shenanigans with Aqua Jet, dealing heavy damage if not outright KOing depending on Liepard's spread. At best, you basically sack your liepard in order to bring in something that can take a +2 Aqua Jet.

    It does shit on every other set up sweeper, though, which is pretty awesome.
  10. Robert Alfons

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    Carracosta only outspeeds with Aqua Jet when its nature is Jolly. Max speed Liepard still outspeeds Adamant + 2 Costa. Admittedly I didn't know it could actually outspeed at +2, ever but alas.
  11. Othesemo

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    Even so, you're going to run into Jolly Costa sooner or later, and loosing a mon because you guessed your opponent's nature incorrectly is awful. Best to rely on Toad or Jynx to check Costa, and keep Liepard in reserve for Braviary or Mushy or somesuch.
  12. FLCL

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    nominating mandibuzz for low s rank

    this thing is probably the best defensive pokemon in nu right now. it can be ev'ed to tank physical or special hits depending on what your team needs and its typing allows it to wall top threats such as golurk and musharna. unlike other walls it is almost impossible to set up on since it commonly carries toxic, taunt, foul play, whirlwind, or some combination of those moves. roost allows it to potentially stall out slower threats that can hit it super effectively such as golem or eelektross. it's also really fast for a wall and performs well vs stall.
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  13. Punchshroom

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    A delicious combination of bulk, speed and disruptive movepool makes for an awesome stallbreaker and can check some of the meta's top threats with Foul Play + Whirlwind, or be an even bigger bitch to stall with Sub + Toxic. I agree that Mandi is likely in the S-Rank on the terms that no other Pokemon can pull off what she does so magnificently (eat a dick Golbat), but the Stealth Rock weakness, lack of 'team support' options (her U-turn is a tad fast for pivoting) and high susceptibility to any form of status (burn weakens Foul Play btw) may be factors to push her down into High-A.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
  14. scorpdestroyer

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    Mandibuzz is good and probably deserves more than Low A, but at the same time I don't think it deserves S rank either. Mid A or Top A IMO is the best place to put it. It deserves to rise because it checks lots of offensive threats, cockblocks Psychic-types like Mush, prevents setup, and is hard to status. It destroys most stall teams even if they have things like Magic Coat, and can comfortable tank hits as well. It mainly the sr weakness that pushes it down a bit but Top A is probably a good place to fit it, especially since it's probably as good as Misdreavus in this supporting role and that's where Misdreavus is.

    To think this girl was so underhyped when it dropped

    not to mention it can sweep with nasty plot as skylight should know very well
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  15. atomicllamas

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    Yeah, I am honestly really surprised Mandibuzz is Low A, I would definitely support her movement to either High A and maybe Low S (definitely High A), as she is great on balance and completely destroys stall, for the cost of only one team slot! She can phaze most set up sweepers, toxic switch ins, taunt many defensive mons and of course has access to STAB foul play, which is arguably one of the best moves in the game. The weakness to SR is unfortunate, but Mandibuzz is still capable of tanking whatever hits you tailor it to take, oh that's right, 110/105/95 defenses allow you to fill either a special wall or a physical wall, while the base 80 speed allows it to destroy stall (which everyone has pointed out). Much of what I want to say about Mandi has been stated already, probably more eloquently by Scorp or Fooly, so I will move on to a nomination of my own.

    I feel that Natu is really underrated at the moment, and could be either low C or mid C, it does more than just deter Stealth Rock, it also does really nice things like fuck over Swag Pard, Mandibuzz, and other mons that rely primarily on status to deal damage (Alomomola, Defensive Missy, etc.). Natu also has a nice base speed allowing it to set up reflect on max speed Golem, tank a hit, roost and then break sturdy with either toxic or night shade. Natu also just shits all over stall teams as common stall staples Bastiodon, Roselia, and Audino can't really do anything to Natu. Maybe I am over-hyping magic berd, but I think that it could be a C rank mon, and would definitely be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts.
  16. FLCL

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    the problem with natu is that outside of [sometimes] preventing stealth rocks and annoying stall, it pretty much accomplishes nothing in a match. it's really reliant on prediction to bounce back hazards since one wrong switch could mean you're dead. i used it for a while and it was pretty underwhelming and not worth the team slot since sawk or torterra could basically put the same amount of pressure on the opposing team as natu.
  17. Punchshroom

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    Yeah Natu is pretty one-dimensional and isn't the hardest thing to play around: even Roselia can poison with Sludge Bomb and put Natu on a heavy timer. Against offense, if you let hazards get up Natu becomes pretty deadweight as it is far too frail to stop anything that hits remotely hard.

    For more of my thoughts on Mandibuzz, they can be seen here and here.
  18. Soulgazer

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    I agree that Mandibuzz needs to rise, as she has an excellent typing that let her check a majority of Ghost- and Psychic-types and has the bulk to do pretty much whatever you want. Her movepool is also amazing coupled with her speed, which makes Mandibuzz a big threat toward stall teams in general with Taunt, Toxic, and Roost. Mandibuzz is still good against more offensive team with Foul Play. With that in mind, I would support Mandibuzz for Top-A at the minimum, since the bird is a Pokemon any teams should be able to handle if they don't want to get Toxic-stall to death.
  19. Robert Alfons

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    Mandibuzz is one of the hardest things to kill in the entire meta, with access to great bulk, instant reliable recovery, good offensive presence due to a STAB Foul Play, enough speed to successfully Taunt the majority of walls in the tier and even the ability to scout, phaze or Toxic her foes. Her Stealth Rock weakness is off-putting, but she functions extremely well in the meta regardless so I support Top A

    go burd
  20. Raseri

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    kk moving things now.

  21. Nozzle

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    I think that we shoud ask ourselves if we are 100% content with how the list looks now as Gen 6 is here. Personally im pretty happy with how the list looks now.
  22. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
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    Proposing minor stuff:

    Camerupt to Low B - what does it do exactly anymore? it's decent but not even close to a top B level
    Golbat to Mid B - still good but doesn't absorb T-spikes meaning you pair it with Skuntank or open yourself to a gaping Psychic weakness
    Mantine to Low B - wasn't ever that good at sweeping and nowhere near the level Gorebyss is
    Gothorita to Mid B - overhyped a bit
    Shiftry to Mid B - same here, it's good but i wouldn't put it on the overall solid level of probopass / roselia / gardevoir (which should prolly all be low A but whatever)
  23. Pen Ink

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    yeah i like what tennisace is suggesting.

    probo and roselia should deff be low to mid A, their offensive sets are very good and all they both have good utility in volt switch, sr, toxic spikes, spikes, sleep power, stun spore, etc. they're definitely better than stuff like camerupt and mantine.
  24. Celever

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    Agreeing with tennisace's nominations.

    Also suggesting:
    Ludicolo -> Mid A (Top A seems a little bit too high in this fast metagame, it rarely finds opportunity to set up Rain Dance and even when it does there are Pokemon that wall it (Audino mainly))
    Gurdurr -> Low A (Competition from Fighting-Type Pokemon but it could be Mid A I guess, this was just to hear you're opinions on him really)
    Ampharos -> Low B (He's actually pretty good in this metagame, he's powerful and he can use Heal Bell. Honestly I'm not too sure why he's still that low since I would've had him in Top B but I'll leave him there)
    Shelgon, Raichu, Lampent, Masquerain -> Top D (C is too high for them. Shelgon requires many boosts to do anything, Raichu has poor movepool and isn't that powerful offensive or defensively and Lampent is pretty darn weak and also weak to common types, coverage or not. Masquerain can Baton pass Quiver Dance boosts, yes, well actually usually it's dead or crippled by the time it gets the chance to. Also not a good sweeper.)

    Also this is kind of odd to do now but honestly D rank with 3 sub-tiers looks weird, since other tier lists have gotten rid of that. I say we should make this Top/Low D only, and here is what I would change:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]
    Top D:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Low D:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Unsure (you can put him wherever, but probably Top D? I don't know):
    [​IMG]

    Honestly I just think that D Rank just looks much cleaner like this.

    Also Wynaut -> Low C (good niche as a trapper who can reliably take out opponents, somewhat out-classed by Gothorita but still unique at what it does in this tier)
  25. scorpdestroyer

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    Shouldn't Weezing be moved down to Mid B already?!

    I agree with all of tennis's changes, as well as Wynaut to Low C but we had that discussion before so it's probably not moving up

    I completely disagree with Gurdurr and Ludicolo moving down, because Ludicolo has ridiculous power and Speed, can 2HKO Lickilicky after a few entry hazards, and can 2HKO Jynx after rocks, just to name a few checks that Ludicolo can beat. Only Roselia, Mantine, and SpDef Ludicolo can claim to counter Ludicolo, and these get worn down over time due to Roselia and Ludicolo's reliance on Synthesis as well as Rose's poor physical bulk, and Mantine relies on RestTalk for recovery and is worn down by Stealth Rock. Gurdurr, meanwhile, is bulky af, can set up on lots of stuff and achieves nice KOs, can beat Mandibuzz 1v1 with Knock Off, Ice Punch, and Drain Punch, etc.

    I don't think those things Celever mentioned to drop to D-rank should drop. D-rank Pokemon are really bad and will rarely ever be used on teams. Shelgon is not terrible, setting up on walls, tanking physical hits. Raichu can set up with Encore + Nasty Plot and has nice Speed. Masquerain sets up Quiver Dance rather easily on weaker physical Pokemon, and it can baton pass Quiver Dance which not many NU Pokemon are capable of doing, which is good enough. Out of these, Lampent is probably the only Pokemon that I see the possibility of dropping, but then Lampent has a nice typing and a decent SubSplit set which can be used to set up on Tangela, Combusken, etc. I haven't used it so idk how effective it is though
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