Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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Put Liepard in B already :I , I'm just gonna rip my old post straight out of the old Rankings:
While I don't give two shits about skill-less Parafusion Liepards, Encore Liepard is truly what makes him better deserving of B-Rank. The ability to force out almost every set-up pokemon in NU to proceed with the vicious Swagger-Foul Play cycle means that every pokemon needs to be cautious about when they go for the boost (the only exceptions I can think of are Drum-Espeed Linoone or Jolly SSmash Aqua Jet Carra). Other than that, feel free to switch in on Shell Smashes (except Jolly Carra), Swords Dances, weather moves, Calm Minds, Quiver Dances, Growths, Bulk Ups (if you're feeling that ballsy), Agilitys (most don't carry priority), Shift Gears, Substitutes, hazards (preferably Stealth Rock), Sucker Punches, Protects, Rest and Sleep Talk, Fake Out (inadvised :P) and healing moves, etc. While parafuse Liepard can lose to Signal Beam Psychics, Encore Liepard can easily force them out by locking them into Psychic. Pokemon that aim to status Liepard will also get force out in a similiar fashion with Sub and Encore.

However, a single move isn't really enough to warrant the boost in rank. No, unlike other Prankster pokemon, Liepard actually has offensive presence, though that is dependant on the type of targets he faces. Liepard's high speed and Dark STAB means he can revenge kill Braviary, Jynx, Golurk (clean OHKO on CB variants), Zangoose, Sawsbuck, Kangaskhan, non-Scarf Sawk (preferably CB Sawk locked into CC) and Pinsir, physical Eelektross, Haunter, Kadabra, the Simis....the list goes on. While most of these are 2HKOs, not many can claim to do this with ZERO offensive investment (with a negative nature to boot!). This means Liepard can gear itself for handling Ghosts and Psychics better. It is not outclassed by Skuntank in this role because while the Skunk has neutrality to most of the Psychic's coverage, better bulk and a stronger Pursuit; Liepard is all but unaffected by any of the Psychic pokemon's disruption moves: Will-o-Wisp, Destiny Bond, Trick, Disable, even Miracle Eye can all be combated easily by Sub + Encore, giving Liepard an upper hand which Skunk fails to achieve. The higher speed helps too.

Conclusion: Liepard for B-Rank. Actually, I might even go for A-Rank possible withdrawal due to Scolipede being everywhere and Encore being bad against Spikes, after all Haunter has shown that frailty doesn't hold you back from being A-Rank, the difference between the two is that Liepard has a harder time switching in (if you consider the aforementioned moves Liepard can come in on uncommon, especially Substituters who think they are safe from Liepard), but Liepard is not as vulnerable to Scarfers or priority thanks to its own.


Liepard can easily turn the tables on stat boosters and switch in safely against recovery to steal momentum, then proceed to harass the opponent's team with Swagger-boosted Foul Plays or Nasty Plot Dark Pulses. A highly underrated threat for sure.

Ampharos has always baffled me when concerning its usability: it's pretty bulky for an Electric-type and has nifty options in Heal Bell or Dual Screens + slow Volt Switch, but has no recovery which really hurts it. It is the strongest special Electric-type (bar Pikachu lol) in NU, meaning its powerful Thunderbolts, backed with solid coverage moves in Focus Blast, Hidden Power Ice or Signal Beam, make it tricky to switch into. Unfortunately, its speed means the opponent usually only has to do so once before Amphy is forced out or risks irreparable damage. Ampharos even has cool boosting options in Agility, Cotton Guard and possesses the bulk to use Charge Beam, but Ampharos suffers 4MSS as a result, meaning it gets crippled by status or lack of coverage, and has no recovery for defensive Ampharos to be good (RestTalk isn't good because of Ampharos can't afford to go mono-Electric). I like Ampharos, and a glance at its stats would lead you to believe it is fairly balanced, but its that very trait that causes it to fall short when it tries to accomplish something. Low speed holds it back from Agility sets or offensive sets in general; lack of reliable recovery means Amphy cannot take advantage of its good bulk. Really heavy-hearted with this decision, but Ampharos for C-Rank.

Articuno has always been troubled by its SR weakness, but could handle the then bulkier, slower and less hard-hitting metagame to stay alive. Now, its 85 base speed that was considered above average is now considered just below average, and this is important because Articuno has more difficulty Roosting before opponents could knock it out. Defensive sets are less viable now because it faces competition with Regice who has better coverage, has difficulty walling common threats, especially the dropdowns. With the introduction of Jynx and Scolipede, Rock and Fire moves have become more common, as evidenced by CM Serperior, Garbodor and Weezing, making life harder for Articuno. Its STAB combo is interesting and Articuno can opt for an offensive set that terrorized the bulkier era of NU....but now that Jynx has stepped in Articuno hardly seemed like a threat, the former being faster, stronger, and has a less severe SR weakness. All Articuno has for it is greater bulk, Roost and STAB Hurricane (which doesn't hit much of anything Jynx doesn't already). Aside from that, Articuno is also handily walled by anything that walls (in the loosest sense of the word) Jynx also, while not having Lovely Kiss, Focus Blast, Trick, and any boosting move prevents Articuno from bypassing any of the special walls Jynx at least has some hope overcoming. Articuno can't seem to perform any of its roles as well as it could without being outclassed or just outright being inefficient. C-Rank from me.
 
Changes:
Liepard up to B from C
Ampharos down to C from B
Articuno down to C from B
The only starred Pokemon left is Lairon, which was split between C and D during the vote. So some discussion on that would be nice. Otherwise, I'd like to open the floor to discuss whatever you feel needs to be moved!
 
The rankings look good now, there are still a couple of niggles that I don't personally agree with such as Carracosta in S (yes it's amazing once it's set up, but who lets it set up? A good player doesn't bring in Pokemon Carracosta can set up on, unless it's Swellow like U-Turning. Solid counters such as Seismitoad and revenge killers such as Scarf Jynx also keep it in check) and Metang in A (takes on big threats and takes them on well but doesn't really do that much back). But I'm not adamant on changing these because the people defending them have extremely valid points.

No, this post is dedicated to Gurdurr, who I want to see in A rank. Gurdurr went on a bit of a decline when Absol and Cinncino left the tier, two threats it countered well, as well as the fall of Zangoose, and the rise of Musharna and Gardevoir.

That's a while ago now though, and the metagame has once again become kind to Gurdurr. It deals with all of the drops very nicely, for one thing. Scolipede cannot hit it super effectively, and is either free setup bait for Bulk Up, or just immediately gets sniped down bt Stone Edge/Rock Slide should you choose to run that. Primeape is laughable, Gurdurr tanks anything it can throw at it with contempt and proceed to just heal it all off with Drain Punch. Jynx cannot switch into any of Gurdurr's moves as Mach Punch KOs it after any of them (even Ice Punch) especially with Stealth Rock oj the field. In fact, a +1 iron fist Mach Punch deals a minimum of 90% to Jynx, which means its dead if its suffered one round of Life Orb recoil. And lol guess who wins Gurdurr vs. Munchlax...

Iron Fist imo is also better on Gurdurr in this metagame. Gurdurr loves the boost to Ice Punch, Mach Punch and Drain Punch. It means that it's beaten by Misdreavus, but they never try to actively status Gurdurr anyway, and Iron Fist is consistent in every match. An Iron Fist +1 mach punch ohkos swellow after Stealth Rock as well (its amazing how gurdurr is unimpressed by the premier psychic- and flying-type in the tier). The choice of a last move is always difficult though: I prefer Ice Punch because it smacks Golurk and Flying-types, and is boosted by Iron Fist. Payback is the next best option (with Guts) as it lets you beat Misdreavus and still hits Golurk, and A rock move is useful to make sure that Scolipede doesnt litter your side with hazards while you Bulk Up on it.

Overall Gurdurr is an amazing Pokemon in this metagame, has the beautiful combination of awesome bulk, power, priority, healing and coverage. The fall of Calm Mind Musharna is a blessing to it as well, and its also a great way to deal Carracosta. At least A rank, if/when it moves up I may push for S because it's SUCH a solid and reliable Pokemon
 

scorpdestroyer

it's a skorupi egg
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I can testify to the effectiveness of Gurdurr. I've used it on my team and many a time it has been the MVP. It sets up on so many threats including those that Cherub has mentioned and with Mach Punch, has allowed me to accumulate lots of chip damage on opposing mons and bring them into the KO range of my teammates. I'd also like to mention that Gurdurr can check/counter many of the threats that have become popular: it can take hits from Kanga and retaliate, it can switch in on Carracosta, tank a hit and 2HKO back with a combo of Drain Punch and Mach Punch, it can set up on Garbodor without Clear Smog etc. With Jynx dropping in the tier, Psychic-types that previously countered Gurdurr have now dropped in usage, including Gardevoir and Musharna, meaning that Gurdurr can do whatever the shit it wants. Braviary has also fallen in usage in favour of Swellow. Garbodor is also increasingly starting to run Pain Split in favour of Clear Smog. This means that Gurdurr gets many setup opportunities. Thus I agree for A-rank, but no higher because seriously, its special defense and speed are bullshit.

I'm still of the opinion that Carracosta deserves A-rank and not S. Carracosta can't really setup safely. For example, Swellow U-Turns the shit out of there, Kanga just EQs you and leave you in vulnerable range, etc. Carracosta is usually carrying Life Orb meaning that its survivability is decreased further. Finally, it has shit speed and even after a Shell Smash, it is outsped by almost all the scarfers in the tier. With its terrible special defense lowered further by Shell Smash, it gets destroyed easily. And not to mention how things like Scarf Jynx run rampant and can stop Carracosta. And especially since Carracosta is like a hit-and-kill-or-be-hit-and-die sort of thing with reliance on Stone Miss for coverage; one miss, you're screwed. Carracosta can't beat physical walls Alomomola and Tangela easily either, meanwhile, the other S-rank mons can afford to give up a moveslot for a way to beat them, and Carracosta can't. All these imo make Carracosta not S-worthy. (Yeah my arguement is messy, whatever)
 

Punchshroom

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The rankings look good now, there are still a couple of niggles that I don't personally agree with such as Carracosta in S (yes it's amazing once it's set up, but who lets it set up? A good player doesn't bring in Pokemon Carracosta can set up on, unless it's Swellow like U-Turning. Solid counters such as Seismitoad and revenge killers such as Scarf Jynx also keep it in check) and Metang in A (takes on big threats and takes them on well but doesn't really do that much back). But I'm not adamant on changing these because the people defending them have extremely valid points.

No, this post is dedicated to Gurdurr, who I want to see in A rank. Gurdurr went on a bit of a decline when Absol and Cinncino left the tier, two threats it countered well, as well as the fall of Zangoose, and the rise of Musharna and Gardevoir.

That's a while ago now though, and the metagame has once again become kind to Gurdurr. It deals with all of the drops very nicely, for one thing. Scolipede cannot hit it super effectively, and is either free setup bait for Bulk Up, or just immediately gets sniped down bt Stone Edge/Rock Slide should you choose to run that. Primeape is laughable, Gurdurr tanks anything it can throw at it with contempt and proceed to just heal it all off with Drain Punch. Jynx cannot switch into any of Gurdurr's moves as Mach Punch KOs it after any of them (even Ice Punch) especially with Stealth Rock oj the field. In fact, a +1 iron fist Mach Punch deals a minimum of 90% to Jynx, which means its dead if its suffered one round of Life Orb recoil. And lol guess who wins Gurdurr vs. Munchlax...

Iron Fist imo is also better on Gurdurr in this metagame. Gurdurr loves the boost to Ice Punch, Mach Punch and Drain Punch. It means that it's beaten by Misdreavus, but they never try to actively status Gurdurr anyway, and Iron Fist is consistent in every match. An Iron Fist +1 mach punch ohkos swellow after Stealth Rock as well (its amazing how gurdurr is unimpressed by the premier psychic- and flying-type in the tier). The choice of a last move is always difficult though: I prefer Ice Punch because it smacks Golurk and Flying-types, and is boosted by Iron Fist. Payback is the next best option (with Guts) as it lets you beat Misdreavus and still hits Golurk, and A rock move is useful to make sure that Scolipede doesnt litter your side with hazards while you Bulk Up on it.

Overall Gurdurr is an amazing Pokemon in this metagame, has the beautiful combination of awesome bulk, power, priority, healing and coverage. The fall of Calm Mind Musharna is a blessing to it as well, and its also a great way to deal Carracosta. At least A rank, if/when it moves up I may push for S because it's SUCH a solid and reliable Pokemon
Finally, someone who agrees with me on Costa's ranking, god. I get it, Costa is good, but do you honestly believe Costa is not as support-reliant as other S-Ranks? Every S-Rank has some way of bypassing its would-be checks and counters without drastically reducing their threat level, even Kanga can troll physical walls with a Sub-Toxic set while remaining a potent offensive threat thanks to Scrappy (I would imagine this as the primary reason the previously S-Ranked Primeape had been dropped). I'll be conducting a test between Costa and freakin' Rock Polish Relicanth just to see if Costa is as self-sufficient as people keep saying it is, so don't attack me just yet.

Now Gurdurr right here has the makings of an S-Rank mon (maybe pushing it though). In Stage 8, Gurdurr had to worry about Musharnas and Gardevoirs, who were everywhere, from owning him. In Stage 9, many things went right for him. Firstly, the aforementioned Psychics are seen less now, with Garde being overshadowed by Jynx in most offensive roles, while Mushy's famed Calm Mind set has fallen a bit out of favor in this faster meta, so most users steered away from it. Oh and the new premier Psychic is piss frail AND doesn't resist Fighting. This alone limited how often you can stop a Gurdurr from doing work on your team. Basically the best (only) ways to quickly dispatch Gurdurr are STAB Psychic, Brave Bird, Air Slash and Hurricane. The latter three are pretty much found only on Flying-types, so Gurdurr will often prove to be a pain to bring down.

Easily Gurdurr's defining trait is to cockblock nearly every physical attacker out there. Thanks to great Eviolited Defense + good HP and Drain Punch, more often than not you fail to 2HKO or even 3HKO Gurdurr while it 2HKOes back. Weakened targets can be taken out with a one-two attack + Mach Punch combo, meaning Gurdurr only has to take one hit and have high remaining health by the end of it, which is marvelous.

Gurdurr can still utilise Bulk Up, which greatly aids in his survival. With Drain Punch, Gurdurr can remain healthy and can afford coverage, meaning 4MSS is usually not a problem. Mach Punch allows Gurdurr to swiftly remove common offensive checks in Swellow and Jynx, KOing both at +1 after SR and Iron Fist, and takes out speedy threats (notably a certain prehistoric turtle).

Gurdurr's role as physical tank has become even more pronounced now, so either A or favorably S would be fine for him.
 
Just gonna put it out there that I've been in support for Costa to be A-Rank myself for much the same reasons.

I would agree with Gurdurr for A-Rank. He'll probably need a bit of proving before moving to S-Rank, but depending on how the metagame swings, it could be incredible. Gardevoir and Jynx are high in usage, but even they can't stop the rock. While Carracosta has trouble finding time to shell smash, Gurdurr can just bulk up right in front of at least half the tier. It's reliably good, and I think that deserves a rank bump.
 
Literally my only problem ever when I was using Carracosta was Stone Edge missing (which frustrated me so much I had to stop using it for a while...) and it was otherwise an extremely good sweeper. Also, Carracosta takes hits easier than you would think mainly due to Solid Rock, so it can take an unSTABbed Earthquake and still set up on the foe. Plus, if you wanted to get past certain stuff that walls it, you can run Ice Beam alongside Shell Smash. If you are going to go as far as suggesting SubToxic Kangaskhan is good, then this is not gimmicky in comparison. Shell Smash is a great set-up move, and that isn't even considering that its Tank set is stellar as is. Everything else about Carracosta has otherwise been covered.

I think it's fine in S personally - when I used it it was a solid mon every time.
 
Probably jumped the gun a bit but I'm all for Gurdurr for A-rank. It's very good in this meta and Iron Fist makes everything that much sweeter. It's very difficult to handle without a reliable bulky Psychic type (or Golbat I guess!) and has the power and bulk to be useful throughout the game, with the option to Bulk Up and go locooo!

I guess we should discuss Lairon,

good points: strong Head Smash, Roar, typing (to a small extent);
bad points: slow, typing (to a large extent);

The biggest problem for it is its typing means it can't really come in on Ice attacks because most Ice and Water types can beat it easily. It is a hard stop to Swellow though but is crushed by Braviary. Most Normal types also carry EQ or other moves to hurt it bad. Also it loses to most of the common leads which isn't very helpful at all.
So yeah its uses are limited really, but it does wall the hell out of Skuntank and if you predict well it can come in on choice locked things (Protect helps it a lot) and at least it's not setup bait. Probably a D-rank for me :( but I do like it a lot for when you do get to use Head Smash and phaze switchins.

There's a few more Pokémon that I think could be changed, most notably Linoone (C-rank is scandalous), but I'm in no rush :D
 
I agree with Gurdurr moving up. Gurdurr can set up with impunity against most of S rank including all variants of Scolipede (if you don't mind getting Spikes layed everywhere), all variants of Carracosta (if Gurdurr switches in on the Shell Smash he can't set up but he still beats Costa with Drain Punch), Kanga although if Kanga Double Edges on the switch there's a decent chance Gurdurr will be 2HKO'd after SR. He can set up against physical Samurotts lacking taunt and non-offensive Seismitoad variants and although Gurdurr can obviously neither switch in nor set up on Jynx, Jynx can't switch into him either as he can KO with a +1 Mach Punch after Stealth Rock.

The thing that makes Gurdurr extremely dangerous is the fact that he is difficult to revenge kill after acquiring some boosts. I mean a Guts Swellow's Brave Bird doesn't come close to KOing a +1 Gurdurr:

252 Atk Guts Swellow Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 224-266 (59.89 - 71.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

While special attacks will understandably do far more to him, there are few special attackers out there who can outright KO a full health Gurdurr and thanks to Drain Punch he'll generally be hovering around the 100% mark.

Gurdurr has downsides as well including his slight case of 4MSS. Ice Punch is usually his best choice in the last slot but without Payback Misdreavus beats him and without Stone Edge you have no way to stop Scolipede from laying Spikes. You can forego Bulk Up to facilitate one of these options or something cool like Knock Off. This turns Gurdurr into a kind of utility counter and as I don't have any experience using him like this I won't comment on it.

Another quandary comes in the choice of his abilities. Iron Fist is more useful as a general power boost but Guts allows him to break through walls like Alomomola (who can Toxic stall without Guts) and Misdreavus.

So basically Gurdurr finds it incredibly easy to set up, is difficult to revenge kill and beats a lot of the most commonly seen threats but always has counters depending on the set he's running. Gurdurr for A rank or S at a push.
 

Punchshroom

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Alright, I admit I've been pretty harsh to Carracosta as of late, so allow me to fully present my unbiased opinion on Costa:
Pros- Great dual STABs, STAB Aqua Jet, good physical bulk, can turn games around with Shell Smash (if counters are removed and checks weakened), crazy power post-Smash

Cons- Reliant on Aqua Jet pre-Smash, poor special bulk, exploitable defensive typing (ex: all Fire-types can learn Fighting moves), cannot switch into an attack lest its sweep be ruined, outspeedable without Scarf and always with Scarf post-Smash

Those are my thoughts on Carra. It is definitely good, but the bolded flaw is really what made me doubt Carra's strength. You can't switch into any attack without the risk of irreparable damage (especially with hazards), status or a Substitute in your face. Recovery moves, one of the few instances Carra gets in safely, would usually put the target out of KO range without Smash anyway, so you still have to Smash while giving them a turn to cripple you or whatnot. Carra can technically try to setup on a double switch or a teammate KO, but keeping Carra for late game while being unable to use those resistances (especially Normal-Flying) really bothered me. At this point, I'm not too bothered about where Carracosta ends up, just wanna throw this out there.


Now for Lairon, who competes with the other Steels in NU. I shall attempt to assess each one the best I can to see how Lairon stacks up:
Probopass
Pros- Great mixed bulk, slow Volt Switch, Pain Split, Sturdy, highest Special Attack amongst Steels, Magic Coat

Cons- 4x weakness to Fighting & Ground, often setup bait

Bastiodon
Pros- Great mixed bulk, Magic Coat, Roar, Sturdy, Metal Burst

Cons- 4x weakness to Fighting & Ground, no offensive presence

Lairon
Pros- Head Smash, highest Attack amongst Steels, fantastic physical bulk, Roar, Autotomize, Eviolite

Cons- 4x weakness to Fighting & Ground, poor special bulk, no Leftovers

Metang
Pros- Good mixed bulk, usable Attack, Meteor Mash, Bullet Punch, Psych Up, Pursuit, Zen Headbutt, Hone Claws, Eviolite

Cons- No Leftovers

]Mawile
Pros- Most versatile Steel = Baton Pass, Pain Split, Super Fang, Taunt (that isn't piss slow), Intimidate, Knock Off, Swords Dance, Iron Defense, Stockpile, Sucker Punch, Sheer Force, Iron Head, Ice Punch.....there's a reason I called it versatile.

Cons- Low overall stats

Klang
Pros- Premier setup sweeper Steel, Shift Gear, Gear Grind, Wild Charge

Cons- Limited movepool

Wormadam-T
Pros- Uh....one weakness?

Cons- Poor stats and movepool, which are what makes or breaks a pokemon really.

Lairon's main advantage over other Steels is its power (although Sheer Force LO Mawile can approach that power, it has poor bulk) in STAB Head Smash, which hurts a lot of frailer threats and even bulkier ones if one invests in Lairon. Its huge physical bulk is letdown by the fact that it doesn't take STAB EQs and Close Combats any better than its Rock/Steel brethren, though it does take unboosted Waterfalls decently. Lairon folds to special attacks though, and like the other Rock/Steels isn't safe against Jynx's Focus Blast, thus ridding it as a counter to Jynx.

Is the power enough to justify C-Rank? Probably. Metang's main claim to fame as a Steel-type is that it can actually fight back against the things it walls, and that's with 75 base Attack (albeit invested) using a 100 base power STAB. Now imagine a 90 base Attack poke using a 150 base power Rock STAB. Lairon can threaten more pokemon at the cost of somewhat less efficient walling, but that power coming from a wall is pretty hard to ignore, especially in this frailer meta. It's not stopping stuff like Golurk and Gurdurr from waltzing right in though, so Lairon suffers much of the same problems that other Steels do. Leaning towards C-Rank more than D, though.
 
Lairon is... dunno. 4× weaknesses and no Sturdy (because Rock Head is so much better)... It is great in PU and probably holds a niche in NU, and it hits pretty hard especially if one is willing to invest in Lairon's Attack. Gurdurr is a huge problem for Lairon though, which can march in and proceeds to set up on you. I suggest it goes to C-Rank because it still holds an useable niche and it can be a douche to take down if you lead incorrectly.


Another question. If you fit Carracosta on your team, is - despite the typing difference - Gurdurr not almost always the better choice? You'll rarely squeeze them on the same team because of redundant coverage and the likes anyway. I managed to use Gurdurr in the past with great success, because it is such a monster, and the current meta is really kind to it. With Guts or Iron Fist, it does not really matter, both have their uses (Scald burns being warded off is always nice especially w/o Cleric, but Iron Fist boosts Gurdurr's power consistently). Gurdurr has ridiculous offensive and defensive presence alike, especially on the physical side of things. Easily taking the most powerful attacks of NU including Slaking's Giga Impact is brilliant - it can even take a Guts-boosted Brave Bird from Swellow provided Gurdurr is at full health and Rocks are not up. Gurdurr for A-rank, possibly even S-rank.

Gurdurr's better typing than Carracosta's allows it to synergize better with the team. Metang, Misdreavus Samurott and the likes are great teammates for Gurdurr and add onto defensive presence while not being set-up bait, (provided no Life Orb for the latter). I have bad experiences using Carracosta (ie; if we take that as a benchmark it should go E-rank without a question), which is probably partially my fault as well as I just can't use the thing unless we are talking about the Tank set.

I made my point about Carra quite a few times, but it belongs in A-rank at best. Even in the current metagame, things like Gardevoir are easier to use, and Gardevoir is B-rank (and I agree with the staff that it belongs there), though Carracosta has a very high pay-off IF you get that freakin' Smash off without taking significant damage, which is... once in a blue moon.
 
Umm.. so I guess we settled Gurdurr for A-Rank then, huh?

Carracosta is imo an example of a mid-risk, high-reward Pokemon. The initial Shell Smash may seem hard to pull of, due to Fighting-types, certain Grass-types, and Choice Scarf Jynx (which isnt even used that much as before) being so prominent, but once you gain the boosts, Carracosta becomes an absolute monster to face. Most Choice Scarf users are nearly wrecked by +2 Aqua Jet, while defensive walls like Tangela aren't too popular nowadays; much moreso fully-oriented defensive teams. Also, Carracosta's initial Speed may actually be useful as it allows it to take hits quite well before the Defense drops. Carracosta does have a problem finding an oppurtunity to set up on quite a number of things, but as stated earlier, it should only try to come in on Pokemon that really can't be much harmful against Carracosta. Punchshroom did bring up some good points (except for the part where its outsped by scarfers cause its irrelevant with aqua jet negating it sometimes, only relevant with jynx i guess), so I am rather torn between A or S if you ask me.
 
Agreed with everyone's said about Gurdurr for A-Rank.
The Iron Fist set is very good and he can threaten even the ghost type, most notably Misdreavus, with Knock Off a really underrated move for him.

I also agreed on Carracosta S-Rank being too high for him, since a good player doesn't let you setup a Smash or he/she can cripple him with a status move.

On the argument to introducing something new on the table, i would propose Munchlax for the B-Rank. In my opinion he should stays in the same tier as Lickilicky since he can sponge special hits better and he has a more reliable phazing move in Whirlwind. Lickilicky has other options like using Heal Bell and the Wish-Protect combo, or he can go offensive with the Sub-SD set (well, Munchlax can use a Curse set too, but is a bit tricky), but the fact remains that Munchlax can sponge more hits and counters setup-special-sweeper better and his Restalk set is really useful especially is if paired with an Heal Bell user (Pivot Musharna can sponge Fight-moves and physical hits while healing his Sleep Status for example)

EDIT: yeah ! forgot about Thick Fat ability that gives Munchlax more resistance while Lickilicky has 2 abilities that are very situationals (Own Tempo pratically prevents only Swagger and the occasional confuse ray while Cloud Nine negate some effects in the case you encouter a weather team)
 

Punchshroom

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Okay okay, so I was skimming the locked Viability Rankings for lols, when I found this particular post dating way back in March.

Sure, Relicanth is "powerful". But the fact remains that it has a hard time switching into many things in this metagame without getting crippled. Once it's in, it can do a lot of damage if the opponent doesn't have a check to it (and I haven't even brought up Head Smash's shaky accuracy until now). Getting it onto the field is a large issue and is why it should remain C-rank. Nothing in the metagame has really changed for the better for Relicanth since it was originally ranked.
The last line doesn't really apply to Carra since a lot happened for it, but Seismitoad's rise to fame did no favors for the turtle. Everything else tennisace said about Relicanth applies to Carra to a tee. Heck, he told me off about Carra's Stone Edge issues when he believed Head Smash's accuracy to be one of Reli's drawbacks. For all I know his opinions may have changed now, but just wanted to point that out.

Anyway, here tennisace admitted it himself: great power and STABs can be held back if the poke cannot get into the field easily. I've elaborated on my unbiased opinion on Carra's usability, now I think we should all have a listen to what 'top players' have to say about Carra that makes it truly S-Rank worthy.

I just want to hear the general opinions from better players on Carra's functionability (how it affects teambuilding is one of the more notable questions I'd like answered), since I'm pretty okay with Carra being low S-Rank, which doesn't exist, but I still consider Carra to not be as effective as other S-Ranks.

Let's try to settle this Carracosta war once and for all, shall we?

Edit: One more note, since Carra looks to be the massive threat you guys are hyping it out to be, perhaps you can give Linoone a look as well, since it has just as a hard, if not harder time to set up, but totally rips shit apart if it gets the Drum.
 
Yay Linoone discussion! It is one of the most devastating sweepers in the tier and should be at least A-rank imo. It only has one weakness which means it can set up on pretty much anything that isn't uber strong; stuff like Musharna, Eelectross, Miltank, any unfortunate choiced attack such as CB Sawk's Ice Punch, or pretty much any defensive Pokémon that lacks phazing or Wisp really.

You do have to babysit it throughout the match and keep it from harm until the right moment but it's not any different from any other game-ending sweeper imo, and the payoff is much greater. The list of things that stops it are fast Ghosts (Haunter, Drifblim), Steel types (quite rare), full health Regirock (very rare), I can't even think of any more off the top of my head. It's really not hard to bide your time until the opponent gives you that one opportunity and Linoone can end the game.

Having Linoone gives you an easy way to (severely) punish Choiced opponents who predict right against you with an Ice Punch or Hidden Power or some annoying bulky attacker like a Seismitoad. And even unboosted it can be of use with Extremespeed. Sitting in C-rank really isn't right when it's one of the top physical threats in NU imo, I wouldn't be against it being in S-rank.
 
You seem to be overestimating Linoone's set up abilities. 70/61/61 bulk is really mediocre if you need to sacrifice half of your health when you set up. You can use Sitrus Berry but the power from Silk Scarf is suprisingly needed. Pokemon with Sturdy are extremely common this stage which usually also pack a resist to Normal and some of them are not even weak to Seed Bomb.

Linoone is fine where it is.
C rank imo.
 
Linoone is at least better than Carracosta. Though Carracosta requires either Dual Screens or Memento support, and Linoone requires both (but hey, Gardevoir exists), if you want them to sweep, and then they proceed to sweep. Only full health Regirock and some Steels can stop you.

I suggest Linoone goes up to B-rank, and B-rank only, since you still need to dedicate an entire slot to a Pokémon that supports it, and possibly even more than one especially when you don't want to use Gardevoir, which can put quite the strain on your team earlier in the game since you have less Pokémon to work with. If you don't support Linoone, it's bulk just isn't enough. Even strong neutral attacks OHKO it or have a chance to do so after Rocks (and that does not even count that you have to sacrifice half of your health to Belly Drum).

However, if you support it right, the payoff for Linoone is HUGE, and C-Rank does not do justification to that.
 
I have run carracosta before and I do believe S rank is overselling its worth. Have a quad weakness to a type that benefits from its defensive distribution, outspeedable even with its selling point (Though speed can be patched up with swift swim but sturdy is seriously the only way you'll get a Shell Smash Off), otherwise unreliable damage output (Aforementioned power balance of adamant Jolly) with threats like Serperior and Jynx (Dat Dry Skin) forcing it to rely on its further more unreliable Stone edge leave Carracosta's sweeping potential hurt with bad luck. But it definitely has potential no doubt, but considering how things need to be absolutely perfect for it to get a sweep off, I kinda feel we're overselling Carracosta's worth. But what do I know, I can guess this post is going to be mocked and insulted but I am just stating how I feel about Carra and ultimately feel he is B-Rank.

Initialize Flame Shields.
 

Punchshroom

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Agreed Aasgier, if a mid-risk, high-reward mon like Carracosta can sit amongst the S-Ranks, I don't see why a high-risk, awesome-payoff mon like Linoone has any business rotting in C-Rank. At most B-Rank because of the need to support, but Carra also requires support from time to time since it can't bypass its checks and counters on its own.

Linoone may require near perfect conditions for a safe Belly Drum, but once it does very little can stop it, whereas Carra still needs to worry about Water-resistant or -immune Scarfers, priority like Sucker Punch which can force it to play mindgames and insanely bulky walls like Alomomola who won't succumb to +2 assaults. After setting up, basically the only things that can truly stop Linoone are Steels, healthy Regirock and Scarf Haunter. Occasionally there are pokes that aren't KOed by Extreemespeed and have priority to land chip damage on Linoone, but this applies to Carra as well so it's not a disadvantage. What Linoone does have over Carra is its speed and lack of 4MSS. That speed allows Linoone to be able to halt status with Substitute (notably from Misdreavus) and proceed to nab the boost. If you manage to retain the Sub the game is basically over, unless something can phaze you to stop the rampage. This occupies a moveslot though, but Linoone can easily afford it. Seed Bomb is mandatory to hit Rock-types, while Shadow Claw is really only for Haunter and Drifblim, so Linoone has room for coverage or safer setup; Carra has no such luxury: it has to run the same 4 moves everytime because replacing one move for something like Ice Beam to hit Tangela leaves it much more vulnerable or ineffective at sweeping.
 

watashi

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linoone is not only stopped by steels, regirock, and scarf haunter. it fails to ohko pokemon with good physical bulk such as gurdurr, musharna, weezing, alomomola, tangela, exeggutor, torkoal, torterra, and armaldo. if using a jolly nature, you will miss out on the guaranteed ohko on misdreavus and piloswine as well. these pokemon will most likely have a way of disposing of linoone after a belly drum either by simply attacking it or crippling it with status. linoone is also stopped cold by kangaskhan's fake out. what's more is that linoone can only sweep once in a match, while carracosta can simply switch out and use its amazing physical bulk to set up again. it is also pathetically weak without a boost compared to carracosta, which can do serious damage to the opposing team with stone edge and waterfall or pick off weaken pokemon with aqua jet. then again, i don't really understand why you're comparing these two pokemon or your irrational hate for carracosta.
 

Punchshroom

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I'm comparing these two because once they setup, they play to win because it's highly unlikely they'll get the chance to do so again (you'd be lucky to find more than one instance for Costa to Smash again). That's probably where their similarities end though :P. My small nitpick is while Linoone requires much more support, the payoff is generally greater, reap what you sow as you will.

My "hate" on Carracosta (even though I've more or less accepted its placement) is not irrational, several users have difficulty giving Costa as much praise as you have. (Jesus, I gave an unbiased opinion on Costa earlier and you call it 'hate', I mean really?) I have mentioned quite a number of times already that Carra is good, just not as good as the other S-Ranks. It's main flaw is its predictability: sweeper Carracostas pretty much have to run the same 4 moves to be at its best; tank Costa trades sweeping potential for survivability (this I like). As a result, Carracosta is much easier to hard counter than other S-Ranks simply because it cannot afford to deviate from other sets in order to function at maximum effectiveness. Granted it's good at its role, but it's still much easier to stop/predict than any other S-Rank on the list, as it cannot bypass its obstacles on its own with a tweak in moveset without jeopardizing its usefulness.

Okay, so after some calcs it looks like Carracosta also misses out on the OHKOes Linoone fails to achieve (aside from Torkoal and Armaldo obviously), so doesn't Linoone stand a better shot at B-Rank than it does now, or that Carra is...you know what screw it, you know where this is going, so I won't even bother this time round.
 
linoone is not only stopped by steels, regirock, and scarf haunter. it fails to ohko pokemon with good physical bulk such as gurdurr, musharna, weezing, alomomola, tangela, exeggutor, torkoal, torterra, and armaldo. if using a jolly nature, you will miss out on the guaranteed ohko on misdreavus and piloswine as well. these pokemon will most likely have a way of disposing of linoone after a belly drum either by simply attacking it or crippling it with status. linoone is also stopped cold by kangaskhan's fake out. what's more is that linoone can only sweep once in a match, while carracosta can simply switch out and use its amazing physical bulk to set up again. it is also pathetically weak without a boost compared to carracosta, which can do serious damage to the opposing team with stone edge and waterfall or pick off weaken pokemon with aqua jet. then again, i don't really understand why you're comparing these two pokemon or your irrational hate for carracosta.
Not sure if trolling at that point.

That, and everything you said goes for Carracosta as well (bar Torkoal and Armaldo, as Punchshroom pointed out), but Carracosta also misses out on Seismitoad and loses to all Scarfers that can take an Aqua Jet, even after a set up. And pretty much all teams have a Scarfer or something that outspeeds Carracosta naturally even at +2.

Fake Out also adds chip damage on Carracosta, even though Carra resists, it can shorten the life of Carracosta with one attack due to LO recoil.
 

Punchshroom

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Keiran, that post adds nothing to discussion.

My current questions are mainly how Carracosta is supposed to function as well as it should, and the team building issues to an extent. Perhaps giving 'A-Rank Costa' nominators (not particularly including myself) insight on how to truly utilize Carracosta would be much more helpful than shoving that S-Rank status down our throats. (Ex: I try to setup on Normals/Flyings/Fires/physical Bugs and end up taking so much damage Costa would be deadweight if I don't Smash ASAP, and this usually isn't late game!)

So Aasgier's notion that Carra has bad physical bulk (pretty sure that's not what he was implying) was a bit off, but he (as well as I and other users) can agree that it's not as simple as Smash, switch out if threatened, come back in and Smash again. Sure, throwing out an unboosted attack or two to revenge kill/hit a switch-in is still somewhat tolerable (though LO variants obviously want to avoid losing too much health), but going for the Smash the first time can be pretty tough to pull off, because chances are you'll be taking damage or status. If you claim that Carra can "switch out and do the same thing again" as easily as you claim, the opponent must've left some huuuge openings, because between earlier damage + possible hazards, and the very likely case where you've killed off your setup fodder (or weakened yourself enough that the setup fodder can KO you) very often means Carracosta isn't going to Smash a second time. Tell me, how often does Costa Smash twice in a single game? You do it once, you're probably not doing it again, so it's all or nothing from there; most other set-up sweepers don't have this issue. The fact that Carra usually only has to do this for that one time is a strong factor for S-Rank, but saying his bulk allows it to Smash twice in a game is, IMO, very wrong.
 
Sure, throwing out an unboosted attack or two to revenge kill/hit a switch-in is still somewhat tolerable (though LO variants obviously want to avoid losing too much health), but going for the Smash the first time can be pretty tough to pull off, because chances are you'll be taking damage or status. If you claim that Carra can "switch out and do the same thing again" as easily as you claim, the opponent must've left some huuuge openings, because between earlier damage + possible hazards, and the very likely case where you've killed off your setup fodder (or weakened yourself enough that the setup fodder can KO you) very often means Carracosta isn't going to Smash a second time. Tell me, how often does Costa Smash twice in a single game? You do it once, you're probably not doing it again, so it's all or nothing from there; most other set-up sweepers don't have this issue. The fact that Carra usually only has to do this for that one time is a strong factor for S-Rank, but saying his bulk allows it to Smash twice in a game is, IMO, very wrong.
I'm sorry, but wut. EVERY mon in the game is effected by hazards and previous damage, including sweepers. I fail to see how any of these set-up sweepers you are thinking of don't suffer the same problem as you're stating Carracosta does. Scolipede is effected by hazards and previous damage, yet it can still SD and switch out to set-up later if need be. Your logic is very flawed here and I fail to see how you have made any good points for Carracosta being moved down to A-rank, especially considering Carracosta's high natural bulk and access to solid rock. The simple fact is that Carracosta often finds it EASIER than most set-up sweepers to find multiple places to set-up.
 

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