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Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Raseri, May 26, 2013.
would it be wise to just chill a week and start this after the changes mold the meta a bit?
Kangaskhan also has a flaw yet it is S-Rank, and Carracosta isn't entirely flawless either, and both need support to function. Kangaskhan needs something that removes things like Gurdurr, while SmashCosta is fairly desperate for a free switch.
But yeah, all Pokémon in NU have a flaw, one way or another, or they would not be NU.
Not really because chances are only Mandibuzz will drop, and if Alomomola or Golurk goes up I don't think it'd affect the current meta too much in terms of what's currently high ranked as it is. If anything some other things might rise but that can be discussed afterwards because I think with the changes the current S-ranked etc mons will still be just as good.
Anyway, I really don't think Metang is S-rank. Lack of recovery isn't good for it, and with things like Golurk, Sawk, Seismitoad, Golem, etc all in its way (and the fact that it doesn't have the best matchup between most things in A and S rank as it is) makes it not really that viable. Metang is great at walling Jynx and setting up SR, yes, but:
- Not really amazing
- Yeah it can wall Jynx but that's its main reason to be used
- There's not really low risk with Metang, because it can't do much to most of the tier, or make any sort of impact at all, and there's not too many opportunities to send it in so it doesn't really fit the "low risk" part
- Flaws being no recovery, somewhat unreliable STAB, stuck with Eviolite, can't do much to opposing Pokemon without setting up a few turns of Hone Claws, etc
It's good at its one role but not good enough to be S-rank honestly.
Also @ current post: Kangaskhan can actually do something to the majority of the tier and so can Carracosta. Metang... can't really do that much to the NU tier.
It might only be here for another week, but I was just wondering, why isn't Alomomola at least Low-S rank? There are two types of offensive Pokemon in NU: those that can break Alomomola, and those that cannot. The vast majority cannot with their standard sets. The thing walls Lum SD Samurott at +4, by Odin's beard. (And it can last long enough when Samurott is at +6 to stall it out.) Alomomola is the physical wall of NU. Misdreavus and Weezing can be good, but they don't have such a vast array of foes they can wall.
By that logic: there are opponents Alomomola walks over, and opponents Alomomola cannot do shit against. See where I'm going with this? It's not like the latter is in short demand either: Alomomola may beat Choice Braviary but loses to SubBU Braviary, as a minor example of pokemon that can get around Alomomola.
To be frank, I would say that neither Alomomola nor Misdreavus outright outshine each others chances of reaching towards the status of the S-rank Pokemon that currently reside there. Alomomola's main advantages are that Wish Passing is huge with Regenerator in this metagame and its typing doesn't matter all that in comparison to the two when you're just that bulky, which allows it to comfortably wall a lot of physical attackers barring things that can hit it super effectively, Pokemon that can setup on it with little effort, or heavy hitting Choice Band users with some entry hazard support. While Alomomola can theoretically wall more Pokemon as a result, I'd also say that Misdreavus (and Weezing) aren't too much apart from that potential (and both are even able to outshine those in some respects). That being said, I think the advantages of Misdreavus and Weezing really just boils down towards how easily taken advantage they happen to be by prevalent offensive threats. Alomomola is pretty much more vulnerable in a lot of ways due to its heavy reliance on Toxic and its un-invested STAB move that has a lot less distribution than the moves of the other two (even though attacking isn't the most optimal role of those Pokemon), which doesn't give it very much going for it when most offensive Pokemon that can beat it have ways around that (Substitute, Taunt, etc.). Misdreavus and Weezing are able to manage those situations much better due to their utility that's just more effective in the metagame, as their access to Taunt and Will-o-Wisp makes a lot of potential momentum grabbers and switch-ins have a more difficult time being taken advantage of.
Overall, I'm not very much obligated to see neither Alomomola move up to S-rank at the moment, and I think that we should also take account towards Misdreavus' versatility a bit more-so when comparing the two. Because of this, I believe that Misdreavus has more potential overall, and thus would also add that I'd consider it to be the Pokemon with the most potential to creep up to S-rank out of any of the other Pokemon. It is also worth noting that Misdreavus is by far the best spin-blocker in the tier, which definitely shapes its placing in a variety of teams in a metagame where hazards are so prevalent. It it also able to take advantage of hazards in a lot more ways than just spin-blocking with its variety of roles to perform, which can function that of an offensive wallbreaker or a bulky stall-breaking that can disrupt a lot of Pokemon alike and is overall a great Pokemon. That being said, I would see Misdreavus being placed higher than Alomomola in the rankings, which I would warrant a Mid A-rank for Alomomola and Top A-rank or even low S-rank for Misdreavus. I would say that Weezing can place into top B since it always happens to be a step below Misdreavus, but it has advantages of its own (notably Leftovers recovery and the ability to wall Kangaskhan better) and has the coverage and utility to allow it to break through a lot of defensive Pokemon as well.
What part of 'not splitting A-rank or anything else till we get there' don't you get it aaaaaa
I'll say that Alomomola is very good, but on the other hand, it's also horribly plagued by Toxic and special attackers can stomp on it pretty quickly. Just enough to keep it out of S-rank, personally. I'd see Misdreavus closer to S-rank than Alomomola.
Misdreavus's utility in the metagame is just so unique and uncomparable to any other in the tier. She has the ability to spinblock (a trait that Weezing lacks), astounding immunities and resistances to common offensive types, solid stats factoring Eviolite, as well as the versitality that most other defensive Pokemon lack. Unfortunately, she lacks reliable recovery, and as such, could be prone of being worn down quickly, which is really unfavourable for her; do note, however, that that can still be sort-of remedied by Pain Split, and with her paltry HP stat, she can usually take that to her advantage. Her movepool is also pretty vast—with tons of offensive and supportive options that can be used to her advantage in today's metagame (examples of which are WoW, Taunt, NP; Shadow Ball is cool too). I firmly believe that while Misdreavus does suffer from an unreliable recovery option and no Leftovers, she has the potential of being an low S-Rank Pokemon because of its sheer usefulness in the current metagame, but top A-Rank can work for her too if any arguments state otherwise.
If she had something like Recover, she may as well be suspected :)
I'd like to nominate Shelgon for B-rank
I've been using Shelgon lately to really impressive results. It has insane physical bulk, allowing it to wall most physical threats in the tier and boost in their faces. Some pjysical threats that can't get past it include Primeape, Carracosta, Swellow and more. Its RestTalk set is really damn effective as it can absorb status and boost up in the face of walls and physical attackers who can't do much. Pure Dragon typing is fantastic as it can come in on all the elemental types, and its STAB move is only resisted by Steel-types which a) are uncommon and b) apart from Bastiodon phazing can't do much back. The prevalence of Jynx means that it probably can't rise higher, but with enough boosts, Shelgon can potentially plough the tier. I think it should rise to B-rank
Regarding Misdreavus, I don't think it should rise to S-rank. It can't threaten nor wall majority of the tier. Golurk and Gurdurr can get past it, special attackers such as Charizard and Ludicolo have an easy time with it. Lack of recovery bar Pain Split really hurts it because it can't recover if the opponent is low on health. It can wall things like Sawk and Primeape though, but I don't think that is good enough for S-rank
So where are we putting Scolipede?
The reason that I hesitate to nominate Dragon-types any higher is because Jynx makes short work of all of them, and that it is harder to Dance up in this meta. I'd also say that Dragonair gives Shelgon some stiff competition because despite the latter's greater physical bulk, Nair can compensate with Marvel Scale and still sport special bulk which better takes unSTABed Ice Beams for reference. Nair's speed also means it doesn't have to DD as much to outspeed threats. With some Speed EVs, Nair can outspeed up to Swellow with 2 Dances; Shelgon needs 3 to do the same while not sacrificing too much bulk.
i agree with punchshroom, it's really difficult for shelgon to carve a niche for itself in the current metagame. as a dragon dance sweeper, it has to compete with fraxure and altaria which make far better usage of the speed boost while even dragonair is a better defensive booster due to it not being as vulnerable when asleep. as a physical wall, alomomola or tangela pretty much do everything shelgon can while being less prone to residual damage thanks to regenerator.
I'm torn on Misdreavus, because it has so many useful attributes but at the same time several obvious flaws (which you guys have already stated). Yeah, it only has Pain Split for recovery, but it's still just so damn good. Low S-Rank or High A-Rank for me too.
On another note, nominating Pinsir for C-Rank
Pinsir really doesn't have too much going for it over Scolipede at this point. Scolipede has much higher Speed, Spikes, the ability to absorb T-Spikes, STAB Megahorn, etc, etc. Pinsir has higher Attack and Moxie, but Pede's Megahorn > X-Scissor helps make up for that and Moxie doesn't really help when you're so easily revenge killed.
This seems to fit Pinsir well, as it has a notable niche in the meta (Moxie), but has just as notable flaws (is too easily revenged) that limit its effectiveness. It also tends to face a lot of competition with a more commonly used Pokemon (Scolipede).
Pinsir has a significantly higher attack than scolipede, and slightly better bulk. Pinsir's x-scissor and scolipede's megahorn are going to do comparable damage, so that is not a concern. Pinsir also has access to stealth rocks, which, even though is not a great move on pinsir, is usable. Both have swords dance, and while scolipede has a higher speed, pinsir also has priority in quick attack. While quick attack is not the strongest move, it does hefty damage with either/or life orb and a swords dance. Pinsir's higher attack also lets it do higher damage with its non-satb moves that hit considerably more than scolipede. Not having a ground and especially a psychic weakness is also a bonus. While Pinsir was admittingly better in Stage 8 than stage 9 imo, I think Pinsir is a big enough threat to stay in B rank.
The biggest flaw that Pinsir acquired during the tier shift is the loss of significance in its Speed stat. The Psychic-type weakness does not matter because the most notable Psychic-type outspeeds and can put Pinsir to sleep, while most Ground-type Pokemon have ways of dealing with both Pinsir and Scolipede. The Choice Scarf set has trouble fitting in in the current metagame due to the prevelance of both priority and faster Choice Scarf users. The SD set also has quite a bit of trouble setting up without being hit by a whatever is on the field; a weaknesses to Stealth Rock and an underwhelming priority option do not help either. Most competent players are also bound to find a good counter to Pinsir for their team as it is generally similar to Scolipede. Pinsir is a decent Pokemon, but I believe that it requires much support to be as useful or as good as to that of Scolipede; concluding this argument with a C-Rank for Pinsir.
Mandibuzz for B-Rank imo. The SubRoost set is actually pretty good. Mandibuzz can create massive substitutes and maintains great bulk without ANY investment in its defenses, so you can afford to run max Speed. It's typing is pretty sweet, too. It has two immunities to very powerful types in NU and some very useful resists, notably Grass and Dark. However, Mandibuzz has a few problems. Notably, it has a Stealth Rock weakness that really limits its ability to switch in and out. The neutrality to Fighting and Bug, in addition to the Ice-type weakness, means that it has trouble taking on Pokemon other Flying and Dark Pokemon normally can. And, of course, it has little offensive presence and is total Taunt bait. But its not a terrible Pokemon... Also, impact font makes me feel important :p
It's way to early to discuss Mandi, though I do like B-rank for it at the moment. Some time for the meta to develop would be needed to determine its place for sure.
I cant edit the OP without deleting images so that can be done later, first it's time for A-rank! S-rank will remain how I originally hd it for now, it can be discussed at your leisure still :)
So here is how I see A-rank right now
I'll justify them all later, if you want to discuss a single Pokemon you have to justify it. If you're posting a whole list, only justify what other people don't agree with. Go!
It looks good. The only changes I would suggest are moving Eelektross and Garbodor up to mid A and moving Swellow and MAYBE Serperior down to low A.
Eelektross is one of, if not, the single most diverse Pokemon in NU at the moment. The range of sets it can use is astounding. It can use Specs, Band, Special Expert Belt, Bulky Coil, Fast Coil, Mixed... and that's just the tip of the iceberg. And each set has a variety of moves; I once lost to an Eelektross using Fire Punch instead of Crunch with Coil! Just about every form of team likes Eelektross and its lack of weaknesses makes it REALLY easy to fit on a team. The main issue that keeps it from being higher is it has good stats, but not good enough for all that it can do. It can't really take advantage of its typing because of its average defenses and the low Speed holds it back from sweeping (max Speed only outpaces neutral base 80s.) However, it is still an excellent Pokemon and hardly deserving of the lower end of the A rank.
Garbodor really benefited from Mandibuzz dropping. Dat Blast mentioned in the Mandibuzz thread how good the two work alongside each other. Mandi can switch in on Ground and Psychic with complete immunity and use Spikes for Whirlwind damage. That's SWEET. Garbodor also isn't too much of slouch on the offensive side either.
I don't see the appeal of Swellow even in A tbh. It is easily walled, easily killed and can't switch often enough because of status damage and Stealth Rock. Someone will have to enlighten me. I really haven't played too many Serperior, but all the ones I have played have been total set up bait, so maybe they aren't using it right. Taunt + CM + Giga Drain seems like a winning combo to me...
I agree with Ras for the most part except:
Alomomola for High: It's only getting better as set up sweepers decline. A physical wall that only looses to one physical attacker? Hell yea.
Haunter for Low: Im not strong on this one, but its STAB coverage doesnt hit much super effectively, and if it gets hit it dies.
Piloswine for High: Awesome typing and only reliable STAB Ice shard in the tier. Rare STAB earthquake (except for Golurk and Golem) hits this tier great!
The A-tier list seems fine, although I'm confused why regirock, zangoose, and braviary are low A-tier.
Nominating Glaceon for E-tier
In the current metagame, there is no reason to use glaceon over jynx. While glaceon has better special attack, jynx's better special movepool, access to lovely kiss and better speed make it the much better choice in the metagame. The only thing glaceon has over jynx is better bulk, and considering ice is a terrible defensive typing in the first place, this niche is rather irrelevant.
will post reasoning later
Not to interrupt the A-Rank discussion but I'd suggest Gardevoir to drop down to C-Rank. It's really struggling to compete with other Psychic-types, especially Jynx, since Jynx has the speed advantage, a good STAB Ice Beam, and LK+NP as more useful tools. I guess Gardevoir can run some more defensive options but it's not bulky enough to be a bulky Psychic-type like Musharna, and Primeape and Sawk still plow through it anyways. Gardevoir used to have the gold standard Speed of the NU meta, that is until the April 2013 drops, and now it's too slow to compete in this metagame. It doesn't help that the drops of Mandibuzz and Scolipede are really not helping it, as they can both check Gardevoir pretty well, the former having some real good bulk to take a hit from it and retaliating with Foul Play while the latter outspeeds and can just smash it with Megahorn.
It's an unfortunate fall from grace but Gardevoir is no longer good in NU.
Regarding Glaceon, if it should drop down it should probably be D-Rank at worst, it's not completely unusable since it can actually be okay if you do happen to use it. It could fit that "usable but has no real niche" part of the D-Rank. Glaceon is imo borderline C/D-Rank.
I'd agree with most of the current A-Rank suggestions though, they seem appropriate.
I would like to nominate Haunter for mid-A rank. With the tier running rampant with strong priority users, Haunter's fraility is its main downfall. It doesn't have a superb utility move like Jynx's, its STABs aren't the best, and it doesn't have the power to knock out most offensive threats from full health. It has a p good typing, but I don't really know why I should use this over NP Misdreavus or Scarf Jynx since its other STAB is quite underwhelming tbh.
Gabite @ Eviolite
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Hone Claws / Toxic / Roar
This mon is very underrated. 306 atk with a great coverage except for bronzor but is not used, both atacks are strong. A good bulk because eviolite, the final bulk is 301 / 249 / 219, a great type that makes Gabite resist a lot of attacks. One of the most fast Stealth Rock users viable and beat a big part of others SR users like Golem, Bastiodon, Camerupt, Probopass, Cradily.. dont have an awful lead matchup against the SR users on the tier, except for Piloswine and Ice Punch Golurk. The last move finally is more like filler, Hone Claws helps to beat spinners and natu easier and some physical walls, Toxic helps cripple hard physicall walls for Gabite such Tangela Hp [ice] and Alomomola. Finally, Roar is another decent option. One of the things that i love it of Gabite is Rough Skin which is a great ability to deal better with physical threats.
About temmates for example a great core is Gabite + Garbodor Rocky helmet, the first one with this set and the second with Spikes, great combo hazard user and making damage because abilities / item to do damage on the physical threats of the opponent and beat easier stuff like Primeape, Kangaskhan etc
So.. Gabite isnt D-rank material. :oops:
Agreed. Gardevoir still has an offensive niche as it has T-Bolt unlike Jynx, and isn't as royally screwed over by sun and can beat Mantine and Alomomola easily and without boosts. However, if you use Sun, you probably use Exeggutor as the Psychic-type of choice instead. That being said, I still agree with Gardevoir being C-Rank. Its offensive niche is really small, barely worth mentioning even, and its defensive niche is bigger but even then it is going to be outclassed by Musharna, unless you intend to sacrifice yourself through Healing Wish or Memento.
While Jynx and Musharna make it harder for Gardevoir to stand out, she still has the quality of being the jack-of-all trades Psychic-type. She has a decent Speed stat (still outspeeding Samurott and Golurk), an amazing special attack stat backed up with great coverage options, as well as the ability to go either offensive or defensive decently. Her support movepool is still really good; Memento, Will-O-Wisp, dual screens, weather, Destiny Bond, Heal Bell at the top of my head. Her defenses are better than Jynx too, though not too much of an advantage here (unless defensive set). She may seem generally outclassed by the other prmoninent Psychic-types in the tier, but don't cross her out of the threatlist just yet, as she is still a consistent Psychic-type who can perform her assigned task with grace. (And comparing her to things like Electrode and Bastiodon is eh) I would see her in mid B-rank at most though because of all of that competition :(