NYPC Moves in Gen 1

[Golden Gyarados]

So here's an interesting discussion I dug up from TPM (The Pokemasters) today. Why not allow NYPC moves in Gen 1?

[RBY] Discussion: NYPC moves

Here's the logic: when an NYPC Pokemon was released, you obtained it by bringing your cartridge and your Game Boy to the store and trading with their kiosk. Theoretically, if the Pokemon and move existed in a Gen 1 game, you could have traded it onto your copy of Blue. And since these gift Pokemon are not associated with GSC directly, since they are technically unobtainable in those cartridges, a gift Pokemon traded directly onto a Blue cart is as legitimate as a gift Pokemon traded directly onto a Gold cart. In other words, is it really a "tradeback" if it was transferred directly onto a Gen 1 cartridge? Or is it simply a gift/event Pokemon like it is considered in Gen 2?

I learned that there is some precedent we can refer to: Shadow Tag Gothitelle was released for BW (Dream World "event"), but was released after XY's release, and as far as I know Smogon allows Shadow Tag Gothitelle in either generation's meta.

A lot rests on whether you would consider these gifts/events, or tradebacks. I've included some possible definitions of tradebacks below:

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Consider possible definitions of tradeback:

1) A Pokemon and/or move combination only possible to obtain in GSC
- under this definition, NYPC gifts would be allowed, since the gift wasn't obtained in GSC.

2) Any element - Pokemon and/or move combination, or stat distribution - that is only possible to obtain in GSC
- under this definition, NYPC gifts still would be allowed, since the gift wasn't obtained in GSC

3) Any element - Pokemon and/or move combination, or stat distribution - that became obtainable after the release of GSC in 2000
- It's possible to forbid NYPC Pokemon using this definition if you simply use time as your marker, but under this definition, Mews distributed officially by Nintendo to RBY cartridges after the year 2000 would not be "legal," and that doesn't sound right! (eg, if Nintendo gave you your Mew in 1998, but Nintendo gave me my Mew in 2001, you could use yours and I couldn't use mine). This definition also contradicts the Gothitelle precedent.

4) Any element - Pokemon and/or move combination, or stat distribution - that became obtainable after the release of GSC in 2000 and requires GSC to obtain
- under this definition, NYPC gifts still would be allowed, since the gift wasn't obtained in GSC

But it's tricky!

So let's get to the meat of this. Is this something worth entertaining? And whether you support or disagree, let's get some fun theorymonning: how would the RBY metas change with these new moves allowed?

List of compatible NYPC Pokemon in Gen 1:

Note: Anything learned only by the Pokemon's BABY form, most notably Sing Pichu, does NOT apply because you would have to evolve the Pokemon in a GSC cart, making it easily definable as a tradeback move.

Important (in any tier):
Nidoqueen/Nidoking: Lovely Kiss
Vileplume: Leech Seed
Psyduck: Petal Dance
Poliwrath: Lovely Kiss
Tentacruel: Confuse Ray
Rapidash: Low Kick
Magneton: Agility
Dodrio: Low Kick
Onix: Sharpen
Hypno: Amnesia
Electrode: Agility
Seadra: Haze
Seaking: Swords Dance
Tauros: Quick Attack
Jolteon/Flareon/Vaporeon: Growth
Porygon: Barrier
Pinsir: Rock Throw
Kabutops: Rock Throw
Omastar: Rock Throw
Aerodactyl: Rock Throw
Snorlax: Lovely Kiss
Dragonite: Hydro Pump

Not So Important (cuz sucky or redundant):
Spearow: Sonic Boom
Psyduck: Tri Attack
Poliwrath: Growth (already gets Amnesia)
Machamp: Thrash
Victreebel: Lovely Kiss (already gets Sleep Powder)
Marowak: Fury Attack
Lickitung: Double Slap
Scyther: Sonic Boom
Gyarados: Bubble
Lapras: Bite
Snorlax: Splash

 

[RBYer]

I don't even think they were ever even transferred directly onto Gen 1 cartridges. See: http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=184717

At this point you can't (or can barely with extremely difficult logistics) even get them in GSC legitimately, but certainly not in their ideal variety.

See this thread I made: http://pokemonperfect.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-concept-of-a-dead-pokemon.3883/

 

[Khaytra]

I learned that there is some precedent we can refer to: Shadow Tag Gothitelle was released for BW (Dream World "event"), but was released after XY's release, and as far as I know Smogon allows Shadow Tag Gothitelle in either generation's meta.

Shadow Tag on Gothitelle was legal due to a Pokémon Global Link distribution in BW2 (August 2012) of Shadow Tag Gothorita. A better BW/ORAS parallel is Static Zapdos, which was just recently released; we don't allow it in BW because it can't go backwards like that.

 

[Golden Gyarados]

Shadow Tag on Gothitelle was legal due to a Pokémon Global Link distribution in BW2 (August 2012) of Shadow Tag Gothorita. A better BW/ORAS parallel is Static Zapdos, which was just recently released; we don't allow it in BW because it can't go backwards like that.

I don't understand the ins and outs of current gen distributions - are you saying it's not possible to obtain a Static Zapdos directly onto a BW cart? As in, I can't power on my 3DS to download a Static Zapdos directly onto my BW cart? If so, then it's not quite a true parallel. In the NYPC case, I *could* power on my Game Boy and download Lovely Kiss Snorlax directly onto my Blue cart.

 

[Khaytra]

I don't understand the ins and outs of current gen distributions - are you saying it's not possible to obtain a Static Zapdos directly onto a BW cart? As in, I can't power on my 3DS to download a Static Zapdos directly onto my BW cart? If so, then it's not quite a true parallel. In the NYPC case, I *could* power on my Game Boy and download Lovely Kiss Snorlax directly onto my Blue cart.

Nope, you can only get Static Zapdos in XY/ORAS. (Serebii lists it as: Games Available: X, Y, Omega Ruby, Alpha Sapphire. And PokéBank does not allow you to go backwards.) Gen 5 games can't even connect to Nintendo Wifi any more, as that service was shut down for those games.

I wasn't really trying to comment on the main idea of this thread because I don't feel qualified (too new and too casual) to say why we don't allow those moves. I was just correcting the Gothitelle example.

 

[Jellicent]

Just noting we could also claim that move combinations are specifically locked at the release of GSC. So, your 2001 Mew would be fine, that Mr. Mime not named MARCEL is also fine, max DV Golem is fine, NYPC moves and any tradeback movesets are not allowed, and the status quo remains unchanged.

 

[Marty]

In the NYPC case, I *could* power on my Game Boy and download Lovely Kiss Snorlax directly onto my Blue cart.

I don't know where you got the information that it was ever possible to obtain Gen 2 NYPC event Pokemon in RBY without trading them from GSC, but it's completely false. They were very specific on what cartridges you were allowed to bring to the event stations, and how far into the game you had to be to obtain them at all.
Sources: 1 | 2

 

[RBYer]

I don't understand the ins and outs of current gen distributions - are you saying it's not possible to obtain a Static Zapdos directly onto a BW cart? As in, I can't power on my 3DS to download a Static Zapdos directly onto my BW cart? If so, then it's not quite a true parallel. In the NYPC case, I *could* power on my Game Boy and download Lovely Kiss Snorlax directly onto my Blue cart.

Is that true? It seems like to me you first have to download it to GSC and then... tradeback.

 

[Golden Gyarados]

I don't know where you got the information that it was ever possible to obtain Gen 2 NYPC event Pokemon in RBY without trading them from GSC, but it's completely false. They were very specific on what cartridges you were allowed to bring to the event stations, and how far into the game you had to be to obtain them at all.
Sources: 1 | 2

I had seen that before (years ago) but those are the basic requirements for the game in order to trade at all (you can't even trade with a buddy until you've "opened" the trade counter in the in-game Pokemon Center by meeting those requirements), not requirements specific to obtaining the event Pokemon. I hadn't seen the restriction that it must be a GSC cartridge and not an RBY cartridge that had also met the "trade counter is open" requirements. I had scoured the Pokemon web archives for a long time and hadn't found these pages though, which is great. Since it looks like you specifically do need a GSC cartridge then I guess this is better left for the What If thread ^_^

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

Question: When was the no tradeback rule implemented? Was it always a thing? It has been that way for years but I wonder if it was always a rule for as long as people have been playing competitive pokemon?

 

[froggy25]

It was already no tradeback as far as I can remember in 2002.

 

[Golden Gyarados]

Pretty much as soon as GSC was announced and the tradeback possibility was confirmed :)

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

Wow! I always wondered how organized and how much competitive then resembled todays competitive. Since I started competitive battling in 07 it's been the same shit ever since, but 2007 with the Wifi battling and greater internet access, in my mind was way different than 2000. Considering it was an established rule for an entire community of competitive battles, I guess it was same shit different era.