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Offensive Hail Team (I'm not Crazy!)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Slypig, Aug 21, 2011.

  1. Slypig

    Slypig

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    14
    INTRO

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    This is a team that has been a work in progress for a long time, and I finally got it worthy to be posted here for some fine tuning (it's hanging around the 1200 mark on the Smogon ladder). I noticed (as would anyone) during my early endeavors on the 5th gen OU ladder that weather was quite abused in this metagame. However the only weathers that were being abused were sand, rain, and sun, so I thought I'd be a prick and make a hail team designed to get on weather users nerves. What happened was it evolved into a team that could stand alone as a very good team, not just annoy the crap out of weather teams. I feel like this is a winner concept that is limited by my journeyman Pokemon skills so I can't wait to get some feedback from you wonderful folks of the Smogon community. Oh and by the way, I tried to do a team building process, but honestly it was so long ago that this concept was born that I couldn't remember my entire thought process. So little tidbits of the team building process will come up with each poke in the "why it is on my team" part of the poke descriptions.

    The Team

    [​IMG]
    Abomasnow@Leftovers
    EVs: 252 HP/172 Def/84 SpDef
    IVs: 0 Spe (to win head to head weather starts)
    Nature: Sassy
    Ability: Snow Warning
    Moves:
    -Substitute
    -Leech Seed
    -Giga Drain
    -Blizzard

    Abomasnow was obviously the starting point of this hail team. I chose this set over some of it's more offensive sets because I needed it to be able to stick around through most of the battle if I was going to win any weather wars. The nice thing is it can be pretty low on HP, but if I switch him in on anything it matches up decently with (e.g. bulky water types) he can get himself back up into the green zone with leech seed and Giga Drain and stick around to continue the hail storm. Blizzard is hella powerful and 100% accurate and even with no spAtk investment it can scare away those weak to ice. However it has a lot of weaknesses so I need to have pokes that can switch into those kinds of attacks. That brings us to our next Pokemon.

    [​IMG]
    Swampert@Leftovers
    EVs: 240 HP/ 216 Def/ 52 SpDef
    Nature: Relaxed
    Ability: Torrent
    Moves:
    -Stealth Rock
    -Earthquake
    -Scald
    -Blizzard

    Swampert is a great support poke for this team. He resists fire, rock, steel, and poison, which are all weaknesses of Abomasnow, and can take most fighting moves, which makes him a great switch-in for Abomasnow. He is my teams Stealth Rocker and he can cause teams a lot of trouble just because he's so hard to bring down. Earthquake hits a lot of threats in the metagame for supereffective damage, and scald is a nice stab with the bonus of being able to burn. Taking advantage of my team's weather I use Blizzard instead of Icebeam (a common theme on my team) and it makes Swampert a potent dragon counter, often because it is unexpected.

    [​IMG]
    Kyurem@Choice Scarf
    EVs: 252 SpAtk/252 Speed/4 Def
    Nature: Modest
    Ability: Pressure
    Moves:
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Blizzard
    -Focus Blast
    -Draco Meteor

    Kyurem is the staple of this team, and is an absolute monster, especially in the hail. It was the first thing I thought to add after Abomasnow, because of the sheer potential of a 100% accurate stab Blizzard coming off of that huge SpAtk stat. I started off running the standard Life Orb set, but I wound up dissatisfied. It just didn't last long enough, and I had huge problems with speedy dragons (for my entire team not just this guy) like the lati-twins among others. That's when the choice scarf idea struck me. I went into team builder and found to my delight that a scarfed Kyurem effortlessly outspeeds a timid Latios, even with a modest nature. Yes, I get accused of hax quite frequently. The switch to a modest nature made the life orb not missed, and the choice limitation wasn't even that bad, because I usually used it as a "come in, wreak havoc, switch out" type anyway. So anyway, Draco Meteor is great for an insanely powerful stab against things that resist blizzard, Dragon Pulse is a good alternative if I can see that I could keep going after KOing the current poke, and Focus Blast provides coverage against steel types.

    [​IMG]
    Kingdra@Choice Specs
    EVs: HP 100/SpAtk 252/Speed 156
    Nature: Modest
    Ability: Swift Swim
    Moves:
    -Blizzard
    -Hydro Pump
    -Draco Meteor
    -Hidden Power Fire

    Remember how I said this team was originally meant to piss off other weather teams? Well Kingdra does that very well while still remaining a great secondary sweeper. I actually came up with the idea to use him after realizing that packing a hail team with a 3 or 4 ice types was a bad idea, and I needed to find some alternatives. I saw all these other teams that were using two (or sometimes more) dragon types, and tried to come up with my own second dragon type. Kingdra fit the bill well, because he provides a 4x resistance to fire which a hail team tends to draw (especially back then when I had more than two ice types) as well as access to Blizzard, and an insanely powerful stab Hydro Pump. Draco Meteor can take care of just about anything that doesn't resist it (excluding some special walls). HP fire allows me to counter things like scizor and ferrothorn, without being obvious like with Infernape. Referring back to the opening statement about Kingdra, he is pure hell for opposing rain teams. I have swift swim on him, so sometimes I'll just let the rain fall, until something that doesn't resist water comes in, then switch in Kingdra. Hydro Pump in the rain coming off of a 474 spAtk (with the specs) KOs just about any non-water resister and can still put a dent into anything that does.

    [​IMG]
    Reuniclus@Leftovers
    EVs: 252 HP/252 SpAtk/4 SpDef
    Nature: Bold
    Ability: Magic Guard
    Moves:
    -Calm Mind
    -Focus Blast
    -Psyshock
    -Recover

    I got the idea to use Reuniclus because I saw a lot of Sandstorm teams using him successfully because of his ability, and I thought the same concept could carry over to a hail team. I was right on that count. His immunity to entry hazards, toxic, will-o-wisp, etc., makes him a great stallbreaker, and he is just a great standalone poke. He's won several games for me singlehandedly, and has gotten me out of countless sticky situations. Can also switch into fighting attacks that Kyurem and Abomasnow draw. Other than that not much to say, just a great poke.

    [​IMG]

    Infernape@Life Orb
    EVs: 252Atk/252 Spe/4 SpDef
    Nature: Jolly
    Ability: Blaze
    Moves:
    -Flare Blitz
    -Close Combat
    -Mach Punch
    -U-turn

    The previous five Pokemon have been on this team's previous million versions. It was this slot that has given me so much trouble. I've tried literally 10 or 11 Pokemon in this slot, but all of those versions had me right around 1000, so obviously I'm satisfied with the approx. 200 point boost Infernape has given me. My previous thought process was that I needed a Steel type, or anything that could take a dragon hit, which my team is on the whole unable to do well. So I tried everything from Magnezone, to Empoleon, to Metagross, to most recently Lucario. I even tried things like Rotom-W and Gyrados. But I realized after all of these versions, that I needed a good physical attacker, because before nape my only physical attack was Swampert's Earthquake. Also, I wanted a fighting move other than Focus Blast and some more speed on my team. This version of Infernape helped out a lot. Plus a good fire attack was something I needed anyway. Infernape deals with a lot of things easily that previously were very difficult to handle. Uturn is great for allowing Infernape to pop in and out of the battle, while dealing good damage to Psychic types. Flare Blitz is extremely powerful in its own right but hits things like ferrothorn and scizor hard without having to rely on Kindra's hidden power as my only means of defense. A good fighting type is always great in this metagame and Infernape provides that. The trade off is, powerful Dragon type moves are hard for me to take. However I've found that I can take out opposing dragon types quite easily, what with all the Blizzard users I have, so I try to get them before an imminent Dragon attack lurks before me, and the strategy is usually pretty successful.

    Threat List
    In General Special Walls can be a problem if Infernape goes down. Ironically, even though the purpose of this team was to take on weather teams, sandstorm teams can give me trouble too. Those are the two main overarching weaknesses that I have found (feel free to point out others) now for the specific mons.
    [​IMG] Haxorus - Like I said my team isn't very good at taking powerful dragon attacks, but the reason that Hax is a particularly big problem is because choice sets are standard on it. I have to guess if it's using a band or a scarf. If it's using a band Kyurem takes it out easy, however if I'm wrong about that, it outspeeds Kyurem and takes it out just as easy. If it's a Choice band and I predict scarf, by the time I figure out it's attacks are too powerful to be scarfed it's already done significant damage
    [​IMG] Jellicent - the specially defensive variety to be specific. It's completely wall's Infernape, whcih I ususally use to get rid of Special Walls. You'd think Abomasnow would match up well, but if it can get will-o-wisp or toxic on it it will win the ensuing Giga Drain vs. Recover battle.
    [​IMG] Tentacruel- I don't know if you have noticed, but I lack an Electric move on my team. I ususally rely on Giga Drain to take care of water types, however Tentacreul's Liquid Ooze combined with it's neutrality to grass moves makes it difficult to handle. Any Water type neutral to grass could go on here, this is just one that stands out.
    [​IMG] Politoed - The rain instigator itself can be a problem because it often carries Focus Blast and is faster than my Abomasnow, which again, is what I generally use to take care of water types. Also it can take two of Kingdra's Hydro Pumps in the rain without going down, and it's own Hydro Pumps can do considerable damage to a lot of my team.
    [​IMG] Jirachi- Has been giving me a lot of trouble recently. Infernape scares it away so I can never get a flare blitz on it, and anything I have with the coverage to beat it is too slow to take it. Plus all of the things I try to replace swampert with as suggested below make my team's Jirachi weakness even worse.

    So those are just a few of my main threats, I don't like to post everything under the sun that has ever given me trouble. These are just the ones that come up fairly often.

    Well if you're reading this, thanks a million for checking out my team. I am open to your ideas and will appreciate and consider all feedback and constructive criticism.
  2. asterat

    asterat

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,000
    One, this team is pretty specially oriented, so maybe make kingdra a DDer with chestorest
    Also if it was me I would swap swam pert for walrein and give infernape the sash and the rocks. But it is a pretty good team
  3. Valentine

    Valentine

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    Entry hazards destroy this team, you might want to consider a spinner. I'm going to dinner in 5, i'll look over everything in detail when I get back:3
  4. MaestroXXVI

    MaestroXXVI

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2011
    Messages:
    202
    what does 156 speed on kingdra accomplish? speed creeping those small investment base 100s? at least run 164 in the probably not too rare occurrence that you're up against a base 100 scarfer in rain

    328*1.5=492 on a scarf base 100

    245*2=490 on your 156 spe kingdra
    247*2=494 on a 164 spe kingdra
  5. Slypig

    Slypig

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    14
    @Regirock- like the DD Kingdra, definitely will give it a try, however the reason I have pert is to cover some of my weaknesses (eg rock, fighting) which Walrein would exemplify
    @Valentine- It's definitely something I'd consider. I'll look into maybe replacing something like pert or Reuniclus with a good spinner. Any ideas would be great
    @Maestro- Thanks for the speed tier analysis. Definitely something I overlooked. I'm going to give DD Kingdra a shot, but if I come back around to this set I'll definitely change that.
  6. KTVX

    KTVX

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    61
    As it was pointed out, you need more physical offense. I'll get to that later.
    First of all, I'd suggest slapping a band to your Infernape. I did that to an INfernape in an old sun team because LO recoil + Flare Blitz means suicide quickly, which forces you to take care not to let it die before killing a special wall, so you both have to keep calling it back from battle and avoid using FB. With the band, not only you can relax about that a bit, which helps you play better, but you also can recklessly smash anything, and even very tough pokemon are OHKOed unexpectedly, putting your opponent in a serious disadvantage. Under the sun, Infernape could OHKO all variants of Conkeldurr without defense boosts, so I guess you can finish off most of them at 60-70% health.
    Next you need something against Jellicent. Dark pokemon can easily do the job, and since you need steels, you could try Bisharp. Another option would be the Chestorest DD kingdra suggested above, and replacing U-turn on Infernape for Thunderpunch, which should damage Jelly enough with the band. Maybe Zoroark so you aren't too obvious, but he dies too easily and hail damage will make the sash useless anyway. You could give it a shot, though.
    Another good option is SD Virizion, it's a total monster after one SD, being able to take special hits, absorb status with Lum Berry, and then can destroy an entire team if unprepared, but generally it'll take 2-3 pokemon if used properly. It should deal with Jelly with no problem, and helps against all the rock/ground/water pokemon on sand and rain teams.

    Virizion @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Leaf Blade
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge

    You could change Stone Edge for Aerial Ace against sun's grass types, so that you hit them while they boost, but I think Stone edge is a better option, also deals with fire types and flying types who think they'll force you out or OHKO.

    I'd swap any of this pokemon with Swampert, as he is the least offensive pokemon and Ferro gives him trouble. Still, I'd suggest having Stealth Rock around against Volcarona and others.
  7. Tangelo

    Tangelo

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    142
    As said by the above poster, you are Scarfed Dragon weak, meaning Hydregion will steamroll this team. To solve this I'd run Band Mamoswine. Mamoswine, over Swampert, gives you important priority in the curret speed based metagame and is really neccesary on a team without a Steel type. I reccomend it over Brongzong to keep up the offensive pressure of the team and give a semicheck to Excadrill, Breloom, and (to an extent) Kingdra incase the weather war was lost.

    It's nice to see someone trying something as underrated as offensive Hail. Good luck!
  8. Slypig

    Slypig

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
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    Thanks for all the great suggestions! I just started using that DD Kingdra and have gone 5 for 6 in the past 20 minutes. Great suggestion definitely a keeper. And I'm going to give each and every one of these Swampert replacements a shot and I'll let you know which one works the best.
  9. KTVX

    KTVX

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    Mar 18, 2011
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    Btw, do you have 1200 rating points, or you're at 1200 ranking? Just wanted to know.
  10. Slypig

    Slypig

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    rating points.
  11. AB2

    AB2 is an absolute ape
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Skarmory is going to be a pretty huge problem. It spikes on the majority of this team and most of the members on this team are effected by spikes quite a lot. You also have no dragon resist which is going to be a pretty big problem when coming up against threats such as the lati twins, dragonite, or haxorus. Forretress would fit on this team very well for these reasons. If used over Swampert, it can provide you with hazard support and a rapid spinner which are both very crucial to this team. More importantly, it gives you some sort of dragon resist which means that switching into these kinds of moves will be at least a bit easier. A set of stealth rock / spikes / rapid spin / gyro ball, impish, leftovers and a spread of 252 HP / 252 SpDef / 4 Def would work perfectly on this team.

    Sun based teams are going to be a huge problem for you in general. Threats such as Volcarona, Venusaur, and the like are going to cause you huge headache. Although Kingdra seems to be working for you on this team, I really do not think it is the best option. Instead, Dragonite would work great in its place. It has the ability to win against the most common variants of sun based teams that even pack dugtrio due to its access to outrage and prioirty extremespeed as well as giving you an extra fighting resist which is always helpful on hail based teams. A set with outrage / extremespeed / fire punch / earthquake, adamant, lum berry, and maximum attack and speed would work. With Kyurem, Dragonite, and Infernape spamming powerful stab attacks, it should be very easy for Reuniclus to come in later in the match and clean up the game with no Tyranitar or Scizor on play.

    Abomasnow would do very well with a choice scarf set over the sub seeding variant that you have right now. Since Forretress is your only dragon-resist, it could really help you revenge kill dragons when the weather conditions are not in your favor and more importantly, other weather starters. Abomasnow is probably the best 'mon to help you check other weathers extremely easily as it cleans up other auto weather inducers very easily. A set with blizzard / wood hammer / earthquake / hidden power [fire], hasty, and a spread of 16 Atk / 240 SpA / 252 Spe would work very well. Infernape would also work better with a choice band as opposed to life orb. Iron fist as an ability is also preferred due to giving you a good Excadrill check as well. With mach punch, Infernape can check Tyranitar extremely well and put the offensive pressure on with the hazards that Forretress provides.

    After those changes, this team seems to be very solid. Good Luck.
  12. Tangelo

    Tangelo

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    Jul 5, 2011
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    I agree with the change, but the niche Dragonite has over Salamence is Multiscale, which is negated by Hail, so I suggest Intimidate DD Salamence. Intimidate makes it easy to switch in on a fighting attack and set up a DD for a sweep.
    After those changes, this team seems to be very solid. Good Luck.[/QUOTE]
  13. Boondocker

    Boondocker

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    Leech seed+protect abomasnow is something you need to try. No grass poke likes to switch it, and it helps him wear down his counters extremely fast. Nice concept of a team
  14. Molk

    Molk tfw zoroark
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    RU Leader

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    1) i agree with the above post that you should run protect over giga drain on abomasnow

    2) on your kyurem, 289 speed with a scarf is kinda overkill isn't it? if you drop down too 264 speed you could still outspeed base 130's with a scarf. Base 130 is the fastest thing your gonna see besides deoxys-S and ninjask ,now you could invest the remaining evs into bulk, or into the other offensive stat and run a mild/rash nature. If you do the latter you should run outrage over dragon pulse to hit specially defensive threats hard

    3) you could try iron fist on infernape to further power up your close combat and mach punch and/or go mixed and run overheat over flare blitz. If you do this run 64 spatck evs and 192 spe evs.

    otherwise good team, go for it!
  15. Slypig

    Slypig

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    Hmm..I'll mess around with other Dragons to replace Kingdra for sure. Also the Abomasnow variants are intriguing, I'll definitely give them a try. Fortresses is something I've tried before, and didn't work to great, but along with the other changes I've made since it could be a whole different ballgame. I'll give it another shot. Also I changed Kyruem's speed, thanks for the tip.
  16. Zerohour17

    Zerohour17

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    Maybe switch Swampert with a Donphan and give it Rocks and Rapid spin for utility. Since most of your pokes are offensive sweepers and revenge killers, hazards can cause you problems
  17. Jmaculas

    Jmaculas

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    Use empolean sorry i can't expand now cus i need to go but i will... if i remember

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