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Offensive rain RMT

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by yoshinator879, Jan 9, 2013.

  1. yoshinator879

    yoshinator879

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    Offensive rain
    Hello! After a long break from pokemon, I'm back to playing (almost exclusively OU). For the second time, I am yoshinator879, long time lurker of the smogon community, and I've decided that I want to post a RMT, so here we go.

    The team at a glance:




    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Team building process:

    So, after messing around with some of the new toys from BW2, I decided that I was actually going to make a serious team. I had heard that Tornadus-T and Dugtrio made an excellent offensive core in the rain, so I decided to try it out. I decided to run a substitute 3 attacks set on Tornadus-T, because, with its excellent speed, it's going to be forcing many switches. Also, 3 moves are really all you need when it comes to coverage. In fact, Hurricane and Superpower are really all you need. As for Dugtrio, I don't really remember what I used; I think it was also a sub 3 attacks variant. Anyways, the team looked like this:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    And, of course, I needed my awesomesausetastic drizzle-mon, Politoed. I decided to run a choice scarf set, for two reasons: 1. nobody expects it. It's so easy to come in on a resisted hit, or after a U-turn, and just kill something. The sheer surprise value of this set is excellent. 2. I never really understood the value of the defensive set, because, while none of Politoeds stats are actually impressive, at least with the choice scarf it can surprise and revenge opponents. Thus, the team looked like this:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Now, I, personally, have never had an excellent time with Ferrothorn, I found it hard to keep alive, and found it often being dead weight on my team. However, since I was running a dedicated rain team, I decided that if I was going to seriously try it, now should be the time. Here's how the team looked at that point:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Now, being lazy and not really sure what to do with the rest of the team, I decided just to slap a volt-turn core that I had had a lot of success with in the past, Rotom-W and Scizor. Obviously the Scizor was choice banded. It does massive damage with U-turn, and revenges nicely with Bullet punch, and can even clean up with Bullet punch if the enemy's team is sufficiently weakened. As for Rotom-Wash, I decided on the scarfed variant. Why? Well, again, nobody really expects it; most people expect the bulky set. Also, it's just an excellent revenge killer and (very) late game sweeper, with bolt-beam and hydro pump. It also does a very nice job of crippling things with Trick. So the first version of the team was this:


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Now, there's a lot of obvious problems. First of all, I have a hard time dealing with sand, which is a really common problem among rain teams, I always seem to manage to lose Dugtrio before it can trap my opponents Tyranitar, and besides, most people are running Hippowdon nowadays. Wanting to maintain a physical ground-type on my team, but wanting something that could dominate in the sand, I decided to swap Dugtrio for a Scarfed Landorus. This also dealt with another problem for my team, which was that +1 dragons absolutely wrecked my team late-game. With it's 101 base speed, and access to U-turn, and awesome ability in Sand force, scarfed Landorus was an excellent addition to my team, not only for adding to my volt-turning core, but also dealing with my large Sandstorm weakness. The team looked like this:


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    But now, there was another problem, I was still finding Ferrothorn to be a dead weight during my battles. While it was certainly incredibly useful in many scenarios, it was just kind of useless in a majority of my matches. In my opinion, at that point, the value of another pokemon on the team outweighed the potential value of Ferrothorn. And thus began a long, long chase to find a pokemon to fit into that slot. I wanted a fighting resist, a spinner, and a pokemon to set up Stealth rocks. Unfortunately, no such pokemon exists (well, Claydol). I tried Celebi, Jirachi, and Deoxys-D. After that, I decided that I would just try pokemon I see frequently on rain teams, Toxicroak. But even that didn't fit very well into the team. During this time, I changed Landorus from a physical choice-scarf set, to a sheer force abusing sub-LO set. I also swapped U-turn for Grass knot on Tornadus-T. Then, I tried Starmie. Due to Starmie's excellent coverage, fighting resistance, and access to Rapid Spin, starmie has played a great role on my team. This is why the team looks, as it did when I first posted the team, like this:


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Then, I posted the RMT, and I got tonnes of super helpful criticism from fellow Smogonites. The first thing I decided to try testing out, was another shot at specially defensive Jirachi (recommended by Shining Latios) on the team. It was there so that I could combat DDing dragons, and in order to get stealth rocks up. I decided to put it in the place of Starmie, since I still wasn't entirely sure it (Starmie) was the best Pokemon for the team. It was also recommended (by Electrolyte) that I try out a scarfed Latios in the place of Rotom-W, because he didn't think that Rotom-W really fit on the team. Electrolyte also made me realize that Rotom-W and Politoed have almost identical sets and purposes on the team. Thus, the team looked like this:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    After testing this for a while I found two things: First of all, Jirachi was kind of dead weight on the team, because of how I played it. It was certainly extremely useful to have a special wall on the team that could set up Stealth rocks and spread paralysis so easily, but I just didn't find that it fit very well with the team. The other thing that I found was that Latios was not a fit either. I found that it was walled easily, and didn't have as good coverage as I'd like. I decided that I needed to replace both of them. Thankfully, I had two pokemon in mind. Neliel Tu Oderschvonk had recently recommended that I try a choice scarfed Thundurus, to deal with dragons, and to have a more diverse revenge killer, while maintaining the volt-turning that Rotom-W had provided. The second pokemon I wanted to try was Keldeo. I decided that a scarfed one should replace Jirachi on the team. So, the team looked like this:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    This team actually worked really well. However, Leftiez pointed out (at about the same time that I finally noticed) that I had quite a Rotom-W weakness. He recommended a LO Latias to deal with it. On the other hand, Leftiez also recommended that I swap Substitute (on Tornadus-T) for sleep talk, so that I could deal with Breloom, another pokemon this team has trouble with. However, I find substitute far too useful to get rid of. So help me out, how do YOU think I can deal with Breloom on this team? Anyways, the team now looks like this:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    An in-depth look:

    [​IMG]

    Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - Hurricane
    - Superpower
    - Grass Knot
    - Substitute


    This thing is a beast. STAB Hurricane in the rain is just incredible. Paired with a blistering 121 base speed, great coverage in Superpower and access to substitute to essentially remove the need for prediction, this thing is incredible. Hurricane is the main move on this set, being incredibly powerful, is absolutely spammable. Superpower is for coverage, and it does an excellent job of it. Grass knot has replaced U-turn for two reasons: 1. Because this set, and team tends to have trouble with bulky waters, expecially Gastrodon and Quagsire, with Politoed's Hidden power grass being the only other move on the team to really hit them hard. The second reason is because of how I play this Pokemon. I rarely bring it in until very late-game, that is to say that I generally just use it to clean up, and so U-turn became seldom-used. Other than that, Substitute is very nice, and the ultimate tool when it comes to easing predictions. As for the EV spread, it's just maximizing Tornadus-T's special attack (for Hurricane and Grass knot), and speed, and dumping the rest into attack, so that Super power does as much as possible. Life orb and substitute are excellent together because of regenerator. Tornadus-T can come in on something it checks, us substitute, use Hurricane on something, switch out, and come back in later in the game at full (well, 99%) health. Tornadus-T is amazing.


    [​IMG]

    Politoed @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Perish Song
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Grass]


    Ah, the old weather starter. Politoed is the pokemon that provides the glue of the team, permanent rain. That said, it should be obvious why this I chose to use it on my rain team. However, why would I pick the choice scarf set? As I mentioned earlier in the RMT, primarily for surprise value. You'd be shocked at how many times I've gotten free kills just for using a scarf-toed. Surf and Ice beam are obvious, but why Hidden power grass? I'm not going to run Hydro pump, when surf is available and doesn't miss, and so I'm left with this hole in my moveset. In my eyes, my only two real options were hidden power electric, and grass. I didn't see much merit to hidden power electric, because in the vast majority of cases, Surf would be the superior option, and so I went with hidden power grass, which has the ability to decimate water-ground types, such as Gastrodon and Quagsire. Perish song is as a sort of last resort, and to deal with things that stat up to +6, like Gothitelle, and is generally just a nice utility to have when the opponent has only a dedicated wall left. The EV spread is requires no explanation, as do the ability and item. The way that I play this set varies depending on the team that I'm facing. If my opponent has either a Hippowdon of a Tyranitar on their team, I bring in Politoed only when needed, and try not to reveal its choice scarf until I have an opportunity to end the weather war. However, if they aren't using a sand team, I bring Politoed out as soon as I can without damaging it, or the rest of the team, idiotically. Politoed is the glue to this team, and is better at it than some people will lead you to believe.

    [​IMG]

    Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Substitute

    Special Landorus with substitute is an amazing Pokemon. Not only can it break stall like a beast, its three offensive moves providing incredible synergy and coverage together, but it can also wreck parts of offense. Earth power wrecks things with STAB, life orb, and Sheer force boosting its base power well above 200. Focus blast is for coverage, and also receives Sheer force and Life orb boosts, putting its base power also above 200. Hidden power ice may seem like an odd choice, considering it isn't boosted by Sheer force, and thus gives Landorus life orb recoil. However, its coverage is absolutely incredible, and thus I just can't give it up. Substitute is, like on Tornadus-T, to ease prediction, and to allow Landorus to avoid wasted attacks. The EVs, item and ability, are once again obvious. I try to use Landorus throughout the game, which means that I often switch on a Pokemon that can't threaten me, set up a substitute, attack something for massive damage, then switch out again. This strategy is excellent in that it weakens my opponents team to the point that I can more easily sweep with Tornadus-T later in the game. Landorus is an incredible pokemon, and play a huge role in the functioning of this team.


    [​IMG]
    Keldeo-Resolute @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Secret Sword
    - Hydro Pump




    Keldeo is an excellent revenge killer. With excellent 129 base special attack, awesome STABs, and superb 108 base speed, slap a choice scarf on it, and it's awesome. Keldeo's dual STAB, Hydro pump/surf and secret sword start off the set, allowing it to plow through things with a x2 (STAB and Rain) 120 base power move late game. While also allowing it to revenge without worry of missing. Secret sword is awesome, allowing it to demolish Blissey without an afterthought. Hidden power ice rounds off the set, allowing Keldeo to kill pesky +1 Dragons easily. Everything else on the set is pretty obvious, so now I'll talk about how I like to play it. First of all, I know that this is really similar to Politoed's set! I'm mostly just testing it out right now, and I need a scarfer with more than base 100 speed, so I wanted to try this. Anyways, this set is mostly just a revenge-killer and late game powerhouse. It can also work as a wallbreaker in the rain (hydro pump ftw). I am likely going to be changing this for something else in the future, I just don't know what, so help me out! =)


    [​IMG]
    Scizor (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - U-turn
    - Pursuit
    - Superpower

    Choice banded Scizor is incredibly powerful. With a terrifying base 135 attack, access to priority and STAB U-turn, it becomes obvious why Scizor has been one of the top pokemon in OU for the past two (three?) generations. Anyways, the exact set I'm using is very standard, so I won't go into too much detail about what it is. I often lead with Scizor, which may seem odd, which is exactly why it is effective. When I lead with Scizor, the opponent never expects it, giving me a free chance to U-turn at the beginning of the game, giving me free damage (as they switch), but also, much more importantly, momentum. That is, in general how this set is used, to gain momentum. This is especially easy to pull off considering Scizor's ridiculous list of resistances, meaning it can come in, use U-turn (getting free damage and momentum), and go from there, always putting me one step ahead of my opponent. Scizor has been at the top for ages, and for good reason.


    [​IMG]
    Latias (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Thunder
    - Surf
    - Recover


    Ah, the old LO dragon, an asset to any team. Life orb Latias is great, with it's really solid special attack and speed, KOing things
    (especially weakened walls or sweepers) is not a problem. It can also take hits excellently, due to recover and it's excellent special defense Draco meteor is Latias' fallback move, and with STAB 140 base power, it's doing a lot of damage. Thunder and Surf are on this moveset to take advantage of the rain, and for coverage. Ferrothorn is the only thing in the game that resists Dragon-Water coverage, which means that Latias has a great time against any team. Thunder has an excellent 30% chance of paralysis, which allows the faster pokemon on my opponents team to be taken down much more easily. Recover rounds off the set, allowing Latias to stay around for a long time, constantly threatening my opponent. The rest of the set is self-explanatory, so I'll dive into how I like to play this set. I try to bring Latias in early in the game, letting it weaken my opponents team, also letting my scout out my opponent's counter for it (if they don't have a Ferrothorn). It's useful throughout the game against stall teams, but against offense, I primarily use it for scouting and weakening my opponent's team early game. Latias is awesome.


    Conclusion


    Against other offensive teams, this team thrives. With it's two choice scarf users, several powerhouses, and volt-turning combo, this team does not have a hard time with offense. With stall however, this team does have problems. With the lack of any hazards whatsoever on the team, and the lack of recovery moves, this team can be worn down by stall teams if outpredicted. Now what about the weather war? The thing is, other than Tornadus, this team doesn't rely on the rain to be up! It certainly benifits from it, but it isn't necessary to win the battle. With that, and the fact that Politoed has a surprise scarf set, in mind, this team doesn't need to win the weather war to win the battle. This means that while my opponent is super focused on keeping their Tyranitar alive, I can break down my opponents team.

    In other news, I have small Breloom and Ferrothorn weaknesses, help me out! Thanks =)


    Thank you for reading my RMT! I peaked at 91st place on the Pokemon Showdown OU(current) ladder with this team. Please help me improve the team, and yes, I know that this team is very Standard. Deal with it.


    Thanks for reading!
  2. BattleStar

    BattleStar

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    637
    Hi there Yoshi :)

    I am speaking honestly here by saying this is a really nice, well built team. It took me a while to find a threat that can endanger the team. You handled your team weakeness get we'll and it has great team synergy. Where one Pokemon lacks the others yep up.

    The biggest threat I see to this team is Breloom, specifically the scarf variation. Breloom is literally able to out speed your whole team. The only Pokemon that can match it is Politoad, whoever this comes down to a speed tie. Even of Politoad won the speed the it has no way to OHKO, especially one with SpDef Evs invested. Breloom is then able to handle Starmine and Rotom-W with ease. I want to point out Rotom-W here is interesting, it's one of the rare moments when really trick is ineffective here. It's just passing another scarf to Breloom. However you most likely won't get the chance to trick Breloom. Breloom is able to take a Hydro Puml if be invested proper SpDef EVs. I suggest you may find it viable to switch out Trick with Will-o-Wisp. I recommend to test it and make your own choice.

    It you don't go for this, never fear. I am not saying that your team is incapable at handling Breloom. Half your team is resistant to one of his moves, though not counting Rotom or Politoad speed tie, Breloom is faster than the rest of your team. It then should be accounted that Breloom can spore any team member of the team that gives him trouble. In the case of Breloom facing Scizor and not opting to spore Scizor. I recommend you switch pursuit with Aerial Ace. It is also boosted by technician.

    Once again nice team. I personally am a fan of it and give you kudos for how you built it. Also I apologize if this rate isn't on par compared to my fellow members. This is one of my first rates.

    Changes (open)

    Pursuit -----> Aerial Ace
    Trick------> Will-o-wisp

    Changes made to better combat Breloom.
  3. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,415
    Hey man! This is a pretty solid rain team that honestly doesn't need that much to fix Pokemon wise, but move set and EV wise I think I can touch up a bit on them to improve your team's overall performance.

    First off, I noticed that your Politoad's overall move set is slightly redundant. Rotom-Wash is pretty much a mimic of this set except with slightly different move coverage. Since this is slightly a problem, I think a better option would be to change your current Scarf Politoad set to a Defensive Politoad set. Why is this better? Well first off it provides your team with a better answer to physical attacks, as well as helping you when the weather war. Since your team is primarily offensive, you'll find it awfully hard to keep Politoad alive when going up against Sand and Sun teams. With a bulky Politoad however, you'll find it much easier to win the weather war and cripple sweepers from setting up on Toad. He has access to great supporting moves like Perish Song, Toxic, and Scald. Next up I noticed you team lacks hazards. For an offensive team like this one to succeed, Stealth Rocks are a MUST in order to keep Sun and Hail teams from succeeding over you. There also just great to have in general for the nice residual damage. Since you also appear to have a little too much special attackers and not enough physical offense, I think it would be a great idea to replace Landorus with Landorus-T. Not only does he have a great 145 base power in attack and access to Stealth Rocks, his ability Intimidate allows him to switch into Choice Banded Terrakion no problem, and even Salamence locked into Outrage. Even better, he has access to U-Turn to keep your team momentum going. He's an amazing bulky offensive pivot that I think will work great on your team and help you counter more offensive threats.

    Now for the nitpicks. First off, your Tornadus-T has a very strange move set. Although Substitute works fine as a protection against status and Choice scarfers, I don't think Grass Knot is the best move to have on him. Grass Knot is really only useful for the rare Gastrodon and Jellicent. Hurricane hits anything that's weak to Grass Knot just as hard as Grass Knot would, so it's pretty lackluster on Torn-T. I would use U-Turn over Grass Knot in order to abuse his ability Regenerator and allow him to scout out on predicted switches so you can have switch advantage. It also hits anything weak to it for decent damage, and combined with his other moves it's just a much better move to have on Tornadus.

    Other than that, your team looks great! Keep up the good work, test my suggestions, and hopefully you do well! Good luck, and hope this helped!

    Here are the sets by the way for Toad and Landorus-T:

    Sets (open)
    Politoed @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - Protect/Ice Beam
    - Perish Song/Encore
    - Toxic

    [​IMG]
    Landorus-T @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 200 HP / 64 Atk / 244 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - U-turn
    - Stone Edge


    tl;dr
    Changes (open)
    Scarfed Politoad -------> Defensive Politoad
    Grass Knot ---------> U-Turn
    Landorus --------> Landorus-T


    EDIT: Going off what BattleStar said, you do indeed have a Breloom weakness. Aerial Ace is decent on Scizor because it's a good check to Breloom and possibly Conkeldurr, however keep in mind that Breloom can easily just Spore Scizor and set up on it. I think the best counter to Breloom's Spore would be to put Sleep Talk over Substitute on Tornadus-T. Anything Torn-T ends up sleep talking is going to hurt Breloom a lot, so all you have to do is switch into a Spore and surprise it with Sleep Talk. Getting a U-turn would be nice as well since you can pivot switch into something else to counter Breloom better, but of course getting Hurricane is the best luck of the draw. Belive it or not Sleep Talk is actually a standard move on Torn-T, but most people just choose not to run it because they prefer Taunt. I however, think it's an amazing counter to the loom. Try it out!
  4. yoshinator879

    yoshinator879

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    Thank you for the reply, and for all the nice things you said about my team, I appreciate it so much!

    Anyways, as for what you were actually saying in your post, about being really choice scarf Breloom weak: In a sense, you're right. However, I did some calcs:

    252SpAtk Rotom (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Breloom (Neutral): 76% - 90% (200 - 236 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 4HP/0Def Breloom (Neutral): 74% - 87% (195 - 229 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk Politoed (Neutral) Ice Beam vs 4HP/0SpDef Breloom (Neutral): 93% - 109% (244 - 288 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 59% chance to OHKO.

    252SpAtk Rotom (Neutral) Hydro Pump in Rain vs 4HP/0SpDef Breloom (Neutral): 72% - 85% (191 - 225 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk Rotom (Neutral) Volt Switch in Rain vs 4HP/0SpDef Breloom (Neutral): 28% - 33% (75 - 88 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    This means that while I can't guarantee an OHKO without speedtie-ing with Politoed (and even then there is only a 59% chance), I certainly don't have a terrible time with it. As you can see from the calcs, Rotom-W, who is faster, can do enormous damage with both hydro pump (albeit in rain) and hidden power ice. Scizor on the other hand can pick it off with bullet punch with prior damage, for example, a volt switch from Rotom-W.

    With that in mind, I think that, maybe, you are forgetting or misunderstanding the way that I play this team; I'm the kind of player who volt-turns and double switches constantly, so things coming in at 100% (even when I don't have any entry hazards) is pretty rare.

    The other thing to remember with scarfed Breloom, is that it is incredibly rare, and so I'm really not that concerned.

    Anyways, thank you so much for pointing out this threat to me, I don't think I've ever seen one (lately), and now that you've planted this idea in my head, I'll be sure to be super wary of choice scarf Breloom whenever I see one.

    Thanks!

    EDIT: This was posted while I was writing this:

    Thank you for the reply! I'm still not quite sure what to make of all of this, you certainly know what you're doing when it comes to team building.

    About what you said about Tornadus-T, I actually find Grass knot super useful, because:

    252SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Hurricane in Rain vs 252HP/252SpDef Storm Drain Gastrodon (Neutral): 47% - 56% (204 - 241 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 20% chance to 2HKO.

    Anyways, I tried out U-turn, and considering the way that I generally play Tornadus-T, it just wasn't that useful. (I rarely use it other than to clean up late-game, in which case I just want it to Hurricane spam). The other reason that grass knot is so nice, is because these bulky water-ground types are a pain for this team to deal with. Also, there's no way I'm giving up substitute, it has given me way too many free turns in the past.

    As for what you said about Politoed, I've tried defensive Politoeds in the past, but I've never really had any success with them, because it really can't take strong neutral hits from either side, and in my experience, it just can't do that much of a hyper offensive team like this one. Toxic is okay, but it really isn't that helpful to offensive teams, and neither are forcing switches (most of the time) or burning opponents, because my pokemon just can't take the hits regardless. Anyways, scarf Politoed is super helpful on this team, and gets kills frequently.

    Finally, Landorus. It seems like a really good idea to have Stealth rocks on the team, and offensive pivots are really awesome on offensive teams. However, special sub-Landorus has been such an asset on this team, both in wallbreaking and in sweeping, that I'm not sure I'm willing to give it up. Also, with all of the pokemon with substitute and volt-turn on the team already (specifically sub), I'm just not sure how much I would actually use a pivot on this team.

    Thank you so much for the reads! Also, note that I'm considering your suggestions much more than my posts would lead you to believe. I'm a debater and love to play devil's advocate. Sorry ;)

    ANOTHER EDIT: Where do people get the animated pics for pokemon? lol thx
  5. Shining_Latios

    Shining_Latios

    Joined:
    May 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,425
    Hi, cool rain team dude. The team is quite solid. Scarf Thundurus-T can basically say good game since it outspeeds all of your team and just smacks them with a STAB Thunderbolt, bar Landorus, who gets drilled by Hidden Power Ice. VoltTurn teams are also a pain in general since only one of your Pokemon is immune to Volt Switch. DD Mence is also a threat. It sets up on your Politoed locked into HP Grass with ease and proceeds to 6-0 your team since Politoed and Rotom-W do not outspeed. Chansey is also quite the troublemaker since you only have one physical attacker and she can stall out Tornadus-T's Superpower with Wish + Protect. The number one solution to all these threats is a Specially Defensive Jirachi with Stealth Rock. Not only does Jirachi provide the hazards to take 25% health from Thundurus-T, Salamence, and VoltTurn teams on each switch ins, but Jirachi also cripples these two threats with a 60% to paralyze them, leaving them crippled. Afterwards, you can just go ahead and Iron Head them to their death. Jirachi can really annoy opposing teams due to Serene Grace, which is nifty against stall teams. Jirachi's access to Wish also provides your team with recovery, something you previously lacked. Chansey is also dealt with easier since you can just Iron Head hax it to death while being immune to Toxic. Overall, I think Jirachi would do wonders for your team and I highly recommend putting it on your team again. Personally, I feel Rotom-W is the weak link, but I will leave it up to you to decide that. For smaller changes, you can try out Life Orb back on Starmie since Jirachi provides healing support. My only other suggestion is trying out Rock Polish over Substitute on Landorus. Rock Polish proves to be a very deadly set late game, capable of sweeping your opponent with ease. It also comes in very handy against sun teams as you will be able to do work with Earth Power without worrying of being outsped.

    Hope I helped and here is SpDef Jirachi.

    Set:
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Wish
    - Body Slam
    - Iron Head
  6. yoshinator879

    yoshinator879

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    Hey! Thanks for the reply!

    I will certainly try out this Jirachi set! Everything that you said in your post was true (although I've never actually lost a battle to any of the things you mentioned, they are certainly threats to my team).

    Thanks, and sorry that I don't have any argument or sophisticated response, you're just right. =)
  7. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte That's how a superhero learns to fly
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,049
    Hey, cool team!

    I agree with a lot of what Shining Latios has said. The problem with your team is that despite being hyper offense you lack fast, powerful revenge killers. Really, anything with above 85 Spe and a +1 speed boost be it from a scarf or a boost can outspeed and deal a lot of damage to your team. This is why DDancing Dragons and many even rare scarfers like the one BattleStar pointed out are very problematic for your team- as you neither carry pokemon fast enough to revenge nor pokemon bulky enough to take hits. Obviously, this needs to be fixed.

    [​IMG]
    Latios @ Choice Scarf
    Timid / 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252
    Drafo Meteor / Psyshock / Surf / Trick


    The best approach to solving this problem, imo, is to change Rotom-W into Choice Scarf Latios. If you're wondering why I chose to suggest Latios over other scarfers, it's because your team also currently has another weakness- Sun teams. Although most Rain teams can handle Sun quite well, yours is different- as you din't carry the crucial Stealth Rocks that allow opposing weather teams keep Ninetales at bay. For this reason, I think having an offensive check to Sun teams, Latios, will help alleviate that problem. Even if you've never had problems with Sun, Latios can help in a lot of other situations. It's not as good at beating Sand as compared to Sun, but if you play correctly you can use Latios to bait in Tyranitars and make some smar double switches to gain momentum. Latios is also a great answer to many scarfers- its typing letting it tank fighting type attacks despite its lower Defense and its high SpDef and great resistances letting it switch in to elemental bombardment. It beats all DDancers if brought in before it's too late, and can also work with Scizor to eliminate threats you need out of the way. Draco Meteor is your strong STAB, capable of hitting multiple nonresisting pokemon hard. Psyshock hit fighting types and Tentacruel, while Surf takes advantage of your Rain to hit through steel types. Trick is for support; it helps you defeat stall teams and can be used to gain momentum.

    With this change, much of your weaknesses to opposing scarfers goes down, so I'll touch up on some of your other things. Hazards do play quite an important role for Rain teams, so I do agree with the idea of replacing Landorus-I with a bulky Landorus-T.. This replenishes any pivoting lost by the removal of Rotom-W, and also helps you handle Sand teams, which the inclusion of Latios makes you slightly weaker to. It can also act as a sponge, tanking hits when needed and hitting back hard too. Its powerful physical moves can take down special walls too- as Earthquake hits Jirachi really hard and it 2~3HKO's the blobs iirc.

    [​IMG]
    Landorus-T @ Leftovers
    Adamant / 200 HP / 64 Atk / 244 Def
    Earthquake / Stealth Rock / Stone Edge / U-Turn


    With great physical bulk after Intimidate, you'll have no problem handling the tier's set up speed sweepers, most of which are physical. Landorus's STAB EQ and Stone Edge will also be useful in nailing steels or flying / fire / bug types. U-Turn lets you pivot and grab momentum, as well as utilize your Stealth Rock which damages switch ins and is pretty essential for offensive teams.

    If you don't like this suggestion, as you've already shown, then at least give Landorus-I Rock Polish instead of Substitute. I would also give it a Modest nature over a Timid one with this change. This gives you a very powerful setup sweeper that can be used to punch holes or to clean up weakened teams. Rock Polish boosts you up to a crazy 602 Speed- of which not many even scarfed opponents can outspeed you. This, coupled with a power boost from your Modest nature, will help you plow through Sand teams and Sun teams alike.

    Cool team! I hope I helped!

    Oh, and there are many great sites for sprites, but I like PLDH.net, as it gives you nearly every nintendo sprite made of that pokemon, giving you a variety of options. You can also get a directly pasteable format that allows you to not have to click the 'insert picture' button; instead you can just paste a line if text they give you onto here and it'll turn up as your picture
  8. yoshinator879

    yoshinator879

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    The choice scarf Latias and Rock polish Landorus sound like excellent ideas, I will be trying them both out, along with Specially defensive Jirachi, as soon as I can.

    Thank you for all of the rates, I appreciate it so much!!!
  9. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    559
    hey there,

    you have a great a team so ill give you a rate. The first thing i would say about it is that you lack of stealth rock, which is one of the best move in this game for obvious reasons, so i think you should really try to find a spot. Second, i think some of your choice in the sets are quite questionable. Starting from Tornadus, grass knot seems cool at first to catch gastrodon (which you say is difficult to play around) but i think hp grass is way better for a single reason, it hurts Rotom-w harder. Secondly, i think you should have put U-turn on both tornadus-t and even Landorus to get a well build volturn combo, Substitute on Tornadus-t doesnt really help with everything and its bad because you lose too much hp, Substitute is understable on landorus but still the u-turn would help more to maintain momentum for your team. Also, i would like to point out that noone is suprised by a scarf politoed, its like the most common set, and scarf rotom-w is easily recognizable by the damage output of its moves. Now i agree pretty much with what electrolyte already said, these changes are fine, but i think you can use something else as well.

    First, i see you struggle a bit against scizor. truely politoed,starmie and rotom can outspeed and ko, but the problem is that you can actually switch in on it that safely without taking an huge hit, and scizor is always paired with rotom-w so they both puts some pressure on you. I also think that ferrothorn has too much freedom against your team, because starmie, politoed, rotom, even scizor wont do much against it (superpower from scizor kos but you have to watch out for protect) so i would these changes. First, just put Scarf thundurus over rotom-w, because its a way better scarfed if you ask me. It still does the same job, providing a strong volt switch and a nice check for tornadus-t, but its nice speed lets you outspeed problematic things like Ddmence, its typing is better overall since it can come in on scizor taking less damage and threatening rotom-w (it wont like taking thunder)
    Also, as someone else said, you have weak somewhat to breloom, and this can fix it thanks to the fight type resist you have now. Thundurus also has access to focus blast which can 2ko ferrothorn making it a less problematic pokemon overall.

    Now the other thing i would change here is landorus, for a couple of reason. I know landorus can setup stealth rock by its own, but i dont want to suggest you bulky landorus-t because i think you can go with a more offensive set, which is focus sash terrakion. Terrakion helps you with a few things, tyranitar in general seems a problem and its fighting type provides you a nice switch in for it. Also, sash terrakion is one of the better sr setter to use against sun teams. Just lead against a ninetales and stealth rock as they switch out. Taunt would also help you avoiding deo-d from setting up, starmie can spin for sure but its better to prevent them. Terrakion still hits hard ferrothorn with its stab, and it does a nice job against blissey and chansey, which are problematic otherwhise. Its also very good to counter some threaths under sun like Volcarona, which can be a problem with sun up.

    Show Hide
    rotom-w --> Thundurus-T (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Thunder
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Focus Blast

    landorus--> Terrakion @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock

    Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
    Naive Nature
    - U-turn
    - Hurricane
    - Superpower
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

  10. yoshinator879

    yoshinator879

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    Okay, so I've been testing out everything that you guys suggested, and here's what I found.

    Jirachi was kind of just dead weight on my team. The easy SR and paralysis spreading was nice, but overall, I found it to be kind of useless and ended up sacking it a lot. Maybe this is because I'm playing it wrong, or maybe it's because it just doesn't fit on the team.

    Latios actually worked pretty nicely, although I often found that it was lacking in coverage, and also, the lack of volt switch/u-turn disappointed me, so I decided to replace it with:

    Thundurus-T worked really well on the team as a scarfer. Both dealing with dragons and taking Rotom-W's place really well as half of my volt-turning combo, it was awesome. I'm not sure whether I should keep it though, because I have also been using:

    Keldo, yes I know that nobody suggested it, but I wanted to replace Jirachi with something, and I have been wanting to try this. I decided on a scarfed set, because it's the most popular. It has been working okay. It has nice coverage, but is often walled and forced to switch out.

    Considering all of this, what should the team look like? I am going to run Politoed, Tornadus-T, Landorus, and Scizor, but I'm curious as to what you guys think should be the last two pokemon.

    Thanks for all of the help!
  11. haxpocalypse

    haxpocalypse

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    8
    Always crucial to have a spinner to remove pesky hazards that will wear down your team. Your original idea of having Starmie doing Rapid Spin duty was alright; it has great speed and a fantastic ability in Natural Cure, which is even more valuable for a team with no dedicated healer. If you're running Stealth Rock on Landorus, you might also want to consider a spinblocker; Gengar provides amazing firepower to go with your spinblocking needs, but keep in mind that one good hit will drop it quickly. Jellicent is a slower, bulkier option with a different arsenal, most notably Water Spout, a massively powerful attack that benefits from the rain, but is only practical when Jellicent is at perfect or near-perfect health.

    So there you go. A spinner and a spinblocker.
  12. Leftiez

    Leftiez *Stars*

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,125
    Hi there.
    It is an very interesting offensive team, I appreciate a lot your team, but I see a weakness against Rotom-W you have nothing for tank his Volt Switch , because Landorus is OHKO by Hydropump , and Scizor can take a Will-O-Wisp then your Rotom-W can not tank easily Volt Switch, then I see that you are very disadvantaged against Sun Teams, you have nothing to come on Venusaur without problem; Scizor is OHKO by Hidden Power Fire and under Sun Tornadus can miss Hurricane and then it 2HKO by Sludge Bomb/Hidden Power Ice, I suggest you to Latias LO on Landorus, Latias LO is a very good pokemon for your team, it can come easily to Rotom-W, and it is also a very good counter against the Sun because it tank Venusaur and Ninetales and then Latias has the Recover move to heal.Then I suggest you Sleep Talk on Substitute for Tornadus-T because you are very disadvantaged against Breloom, Breloom has Spore and he can asleep Tornadus-T to kill, now you can come on Breloom easily and kill him with Sleep Talk.

    Latias (open)
    Latias (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Surf
    - Recover


    Tl;dr

    Show Hide
    Landorus--->Latias
    Tornadus-T--->Sleep Talk


    Hope i Helped and Good Luck with your team.
  13. yoshinator879

    yoshinator879

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    Thanks for the rate!

    I'm actually not running Stealth rocks on Landorus, although I agree that a spinblocker would be helpful if I were.

    Thanks again!

    Thanks for the rate!

    I actually noticed my massive Rotom-W weakness just before reading your post, and I agree that Latias is an excellent counter to it, while also having a great place on my team. I have been testing an updated version of the team, and will change the original RMT soon. Thanks again!

    As for what you said about Breloom, I think you're right that I have a Breloom weakness, but I don't think that I'm willing to give up substitute. It is such an asset to Tornadus-T because of my play stye. I removes the need for predictions, and eliminates wasted moves. It also works especially well because of Regenrator. Any other suggestions as to how to fix my Breloom weakness?

    Thanks again guys.
  14. haxpocalypse

    haxpocalypse

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
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    Breloom's a tough one, but the best counter is Celebi, as it can take both of Breloom's STAB attacks, is faster than breloom with 100 on every stat and laughs off Spore with Natural Cure.

    Also, you seem to be rather fond of Substitute. For a team that claims to be geared towards offense, this seems to be a purely defensive tactic. While it may provide a buffer against certain crippling moves, keep in mind that it costs a turn and 25% HP to set up, and all it takes is a faster opponent and one lucky status move on the first turn to end your best sweeper's run. Besides, Tornadus-T works best with U-turn instead of Substitute, as Tornadus-T doesn't like losing health if it can help it, and it doesn't have the bulk to justify putting up a Substitute against most of the threats in OU. With U-turn, it can deal some damage as it switches out, and this is all after your opponent's hypothetical switch-out resolves, so if Tornadus-T forces a switch and uses U-turn on the same turn, you can analyze your new target and choose the appropriate counter for it. Also, Regenerator and U-turn is a fantastic combo for hit-and-run playstyles.

    VoltTurn teams require a lot of switching, so there's really not a lot of purpose for set-up moves like Substitute, except for bulky, late-game sweeper types like Dragonite, who can abuse Multiscale by using Roost behind a Substitute (like what I did for my half-VoltTurn rain team).
  15. yoshinator879

    yoshinator879

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    I think that we have very different opinions when it comes to what substitute is useful for. It's not just about eliminating status and defensive playing, it's about prediction, and not wasting life orb recoil. For example. Say that I have Tornadus-T in on a Blissey. The Blissey is at 60%, which is killing range for my Superpower. However, my opponent has a Jellicent at 70% on their team. Hurricane can easily 2HKO Jellicent from that range. So should I predict the Jellicent to come and use Hurricane, or Superpower to kill the Blissey? Neither, I should use Substitute. It's pretty likely that my opponent (if they know what their doing) will switch into Jellicent. Which means that I can get up a Substitute and proceed to 2HKO them with Hurricane. If they stay in and use, say Thunderwave, I get the KO on the blissey AND a sub. If they stay in and use seismic toss (for example), then I just superpower the next turn, and KO them (unless I'm suspisious of mind-games, in which case I'll probably do some crazy prediction and use grass knot or something, ANYWAYS)

    Substitute is DEFINITELY not just useful for defense, it is is also incredibly useful for offensive play.

    On the other hand, Celebi certainly is the best counter for Breloom, I just don't think it works very well on this team (I've tried it).

    Thanks again!
  16. haxpocalypse

    haxpocalypse

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
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    Well, I tried I guess. I'm not an expert, admittedly. Also, I just realized that like 33-50% of what I said in my last post is false.

    From what I know about Breloom, most of the danger comes from Spore, so you could try using some other Pokemon that is either immune to sleep, is faster than Breloom and either knows Safeguard or can use Substitute effectively against it, or has a strategy that involved getting a primary status ailment on the first turn (since any primary status ailment can't be overridden by other primary status ailments). For example, Guts Conkeldurr with Flame Orb, or Poison Heal Gliscor with Toxic Orb.

    Failing that, you can always try putting a Breloom on your team to even the odds.
  17. yoshinator879

    yoshinator879

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    Bump? I've changed the team a bunch, so I think I'm allowed to do this.
  18. CTC

    CTC The Lord Shepherd shall guideth ye cattle
    is Smogon Frontier's Stadium Baronis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    Messages:
    404
    Hi, the team looks very sound offensively, but it lacks a few pivot mons to take hits and gain momentum. Opposing TornT and lati's do a ton of damage to this team as is, and the only steel type scizor switches into neither of those 2 with ease. I think a special defensive jirachi would work better, with a simple spread of
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Thunder
    - Wish/U-turn
    - Stealth Rocks
    - Iron Head
    This is a great pivot mon sponging heavy special hits and even wish passing to teammates.
    Gl ;]
  19. Alexander.

    Alexander.

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,837
    Hello, I got your PM so I'll give you a rate.

    Looking at your team, it seems weak to sun teams because Politoed can't switch into Ninetales without get a burn so win the weather war is quite hard. Also Venusaur when sun is up is a problem for this team because you haven't a solid switch into it. To solve this weakness, on Latias I suggest you to move 72 EVs from SAtk to HP. 72 EVs allows to resist to Venusaur at +2's Sludge Bomb and this is fine for your team. 72 is also a Life Orb recoil number. Always speaking about Latias, I suggest you to change Thunder into Psyshock. Thunder when sun is up is a very bad move because of its accuracy of only 50%, Psyshock otherwise is useful to hit hard Blissey, Venusaur, Keldeo and Terrakion for example. Finally, Breloom is quite problematic for this team because your only switch into it called Tornadus-T fears Spore. Therefore, I'd use Sleep Talk, replacing Substitute on Tornadus-T. Sleep Talk allows to switch into Breloom without fear of Spore. Substitute otherwise isn't a very good move in this team because you haven't a rapid spin user so the recoil from Life Orb and Substitute can be very annoying.

    That's about your team. Good luck, hope I helped!

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