Official MLB 2012 Season Thread

Yeah, because Stras wasn't going to be nervous in his first career playoff game. It could have happened to anyone. And at least two of the walks were the result of the bad umpire. For Gio the zone was smaller than it should have been while for Wainwright the plate was about eight inches wider.
 
Yeah, because Stras wasn't going to be nervous in his first career playoff game. It could have happened to anyone. And at least two of the walks were the result of the bad umpire. For Gio the zone was smaller than it should have been while for Wainwright the plate was about eight inches wider.
"blah blah my team is doing poorly so it MUST be the refs/umpires/whatever"

sigh. sports fans these days.
 
/inb4umpcostredsagame
I never blame refs. When you lose, there's always something you could have done better as a team at some point during the game to prevent that. The refs do not control games. Sports fans nowadays are unable to accept losses and the amount of blame put on refs in ALL of the major sports disgusts me.
 

TrollFreak

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Tell that to the Atlanta Fans, hope you're wearing a protective suit lol

Omg, I'm agreeing with you, maybe the world isn't coming to an end after all.
 
Did I say it was the Umpire's fault we were losing? No. I was just expressing my disgust with the shit job that guy was doing.

I also just heard that this crew has thrown out Davey Johnson twice this year and they were the only team to throw him out all year. They're Nats haters. :P

Ugly win but I'll take it on the road.
 
Just found out that TBS gets to decide when each game is played so as long as the Yankees are in it they'll get the best time slot.

Just another reason to hate the scumbag Yankees and their mouth breathing fans.
 
Since when was Arroyo that good? Lol here's hoping the Reds win the WS!
he's always been very good! he would be a #3 or so starter in the rotation of every single team in baseball.

people don't talk about him because he's on the Reds and no one gives a shit about us, but Bronson's breaking balls are some of the best in baseball.
 
Yeah, the Reds really dominated us in those 2 games of the seven game season series they beat us in.

Also, Arroyo looked that good when he was still coming out of the bullpen in Boston. He's always had good stuff.
 
Yeah, the Reds really dominated us in those 2 games of the seven game season series they beat us in.
Oh yeah, that's right, I forgot the regular season results are a 100% accurate predictor of what happens/will happen in the postseason. This is a pattern that has been proven exactly correct in the postseason every single year in every single sport. In fact, it's so accurate that we're just going to give the Nationals the World Series trophy right now since they won more games than anyone else. That obviously means that no one can or ever will beat them in the postseason this year. Sorry for being so stupid!
 

TrollFreak

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Ahhh, its nice whenever I wake up and see that Baltimore gets put back in their place

I like Buck, but cmon O's, October is our opening day
 

Mr.E

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Arroyo was literally the worst starting pitcher in MLB last year. 2012 is some weird anomaly where he's mysteriously become slightly more than a mediocre innings-eater. Not that I'm complaining.
 
if Bronson Arroyo would be a #3 on any roster then hitters would be dominating the league.

Mr. E gave a good description, actually. Arroyo's only real value is innings eating. What saw the marginal increase this year was his slight increase in %K and slight %BB decrease. %K is probably a one year thing, as his trends were going down every year, but the %BB may not have been. Either way, he pitched a hell of a game yesterday..
 
Arroyo was literally the worst starting pitcher in MLB last year. 2012 is some weird anomaly where he's mysteriously become slightly more than a mediocre innings-eater. Not that I'm complaining.
No, 2011 was the anomaly, not this season.

He has a winning record and a 4.23 ERA for his career. Any team in baseball would have him in their rotation. He's incredibly solid and always has been. Arroyo's the #3 starter on one of the best pitching rotations on the league, wtf are you talking about moi?
 

Stallion

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No, 2011 was the anomaly, not this season.

He has a winning record and a 4.23 ERA for his career. Any team in baseball would have him in their rotation. He's incredibly solid and always has been. Arroyo's the #3 starter on one of the best pitching rotations on the league, wtf are you talking about moi?
A full strength Nats wouldn't want him as a number 3...
 
A #3 starter isn't defined by his place on a roster, but his actual talent level. You can't just make blanket statements. Arroyo is justifiably BAD.

Trying to use basic stats like ERA and winning records doesn't mean anything, either. a 4.23 career ERA isn't anything impressive. It's bordering on replacement level. Wins and losses don't mean anything either, those are just a function of the team behind you.

Why the heck are you calling people out on bias when you can't even admit that Arroyo isn't solid. He's a low talent inning eater, who offers nothing more than replacement level over 200 innings a year. He's quantifiably bad.

Also, you think 2011 was the anomaly? He was following a natural progression of getting worse. He's 35. Your ability doesn't stay constant. I don't know how you can't see that a sudden spike back isn't an anomaly.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=978&position=P
 
A full strength Nats wouldn't want him as a number 3...
You're right, he'd be their number 4 instead.

You're right, a 4.23 career ERA isn't impressive. It's solid, which is exactly what Bronson is. Just because he doesn't have a 10 K/9 ratio you think he's BAD? You haven't provided a single shred of evidence to suggest he's bad other than the fact that you just happen to think so. Considering his home ball park is literally THE most hitter-friendly ballpark in baseball (besides like Coors damn Field, but they're like 50,000 feet in the air lol), I'd say he does pretty fucking well.
 
You're right, he'd be their number 4 instead.

You're right, a 4.23 career ERA isn't impressive. It's solid, which is exactly what Bronson is. Just because he doesn't have a 10 K/9 ratio you think he's BAD? You haven't provided a single shred of evidence to suggest he's bad other than the fact that you just happen to think so. Considering his home ball park is literally THE most hitter-friendly ballpark in baseball (besides like Coors damn Field, but they're like 50,000 feet in the air lol), I'd say he does pretty fucking well.
I linked you to his stat page while referencing his stats, but if you'd like it in more detail, I'll be happy to oblige. He is, and always has been, one of the most homer friendly pitchers in the league. This isn't just a function of his home ball park, either. Admittedly, the GABP has one of the highest HR only park factors (though as a note, it isn't nearly as exaggerated as you stated, it consistently ranks top 10, though), he still has a career 1.18 HR/9 on the road.

Earlier in his career in Cincinnati, he wasn't just a bad starter who ate innings. He provided marginal value in those innings because he could still strike out some batters. I appreciate that you think I need his K/9 to be 10, because obviously, greatly exaggerating someone else's stance is a way to prove them wrong. He's at a point now where he's striking out far less than the league average, at a time when the strikeout ratio is only increasing. This year, the National League strikeout average was 7.69. His ONE YEAR spike was 5.75 (whereas his previous three years had an average closer to 5). That's a difference of two.. that's more than substantial.

But what if strikeouts don't matter (even though they obviously do)? Arroyo's pitching style is even more detrimental than most in that scenario. He's a 60% FB pitcher, with at minimum 10% HR/FB. This means, that Arroyo, in comparison to most pitchers, allows more balls in play (because he doesn't strike out many batters). Which means he allows more flyballs than most pitchers. And we get the homeruns.

You can be a pitcher like this if you "have the stuff to get away with that". There's a reason people say that: striking out batters removes ball in play, which always increases the likelihood of a positive outcome for a pitcher.

There was a time when you could argue that Bronson Arroyo was solid, especially relative to the league average (say, 2005-2008). Unfortunately, Arroyo's performance has generally been getting worse, at a time when league average (especially the National League), has been getting even better. This means that his value relative to other players has been getting even lower. When you take into account the Cincinnati defense (who, from 2009-2012 are ranked #1 in Defensive Runs Saved, and #2 in Ultimate Zone Rating), you see that Arroyo is a a bad pitcher who's ONLY value is innings, who's been saved the disgusting stat-line on balls in play thanks to a defense with some of the best range in all of baseball (as evidenced by his 4.79 FIP, and 4.5 WAR, second worst (to Jeremy Guthrie) and worst among pitchers with 700+ IP over 2009-2012)
 
lol. Talking smack now because you won't be able to when the A's knock the Paper Tigers out.

I'm so excited for tomorrow I can hardly take it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHaaaaaaa

Good one

Are you fucking telling some kind of joke right now?

Let's look at Cabrera's best teammate compared to Trout's best teammate:

Price Fielder's 2012 Stats:
.313 AVG / 83 Runs / 30 HR / 108 RBI

Albert Pujols' 2012 Stats:
.285 AVG / 85 Runs / 30 HR / 105 RBI


In the argument of total scoring contributions, Trout's combined runs and rbi is 212.

Cabrera's combined run and rbi is 248. He also played an extra month of the season.


GEE, TROUT SURE DID HAVE A HUGE ADVANTAGE WITH HIS TEAMMATES AND CABRERA SURE DID CONTRIBUTE WAY MORE TO HIS OFFENSE!!!!
Well, gee, I guess if Cabby has more RBI's... you kind of are supporting my argument, seeing as one of the criteria for mvp is playing time....
tbh there's no point arguing about Miguel Cabrera with J-man at this point, just link to articles and see if he'll read them. It's okay though. Even if Miguel Cabrera will steal the MVP, David Price will sneak the CY away from Verlander.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/trout-versus-cabrera-offense-only-context-included/

also J-man don't reference anything about standings in the arguments when the Angels had a better record than the Tigers.. The argument is illogical (one player does not make a team) but is also just blatantly wrong.
http://designaterobertson.blogspot.com/2012/10/encore-miggy4mvp.html
BOOM, FACTS
Fact: Miggy involved in 28% of Tigers runs
Trout involved in 25.9%

You guys sure love ragging on me when you're wrong....
 
tbh J-Man I didn't say anything about the run%. Actually, the fact that you're talking about OFFENSE only shows how illogical the argument is. Unless you're trying to say 2% difference on offense is worth more than Trout's baserunning and defense. (with the %2 being largely a factor of the fact that Cabrera played more)

The writer of the article you linked to fully admitted at the end, that it is more of a feeling, and again left the reader with nothing more than

What I’m trying to say is Miguel Cabrera has been more valuable than Mike Trout has this year in regards to their respective teams. Without Cabrera, the Tigers have Ramon Santiago playing third and are lucky to be fighting Cleveland and Kansas City for third place. Without Trout, the Angels have Peter Bourjos in center and are in the same place they are today…third place ahead of Seattle.
Placing is no proof of value. Value comes in wins, and how much a player added to them. Just because LA would still be in third place doesn't mean they would be the same team, that's obvious, isn't it? Did you even read the article I linked you to? Essentially, it came back to an argument about leading the team to the playoffs again. And if that's what you really want the MVP to be about, then that's fine, whatever. It's illogical, and comes back to the argument of somehow believing that a single player has that great of an influence, even when in the case of Detroit it was the starting pitchers that carried them to the end.
 
tbh J-Man I didn't say anything about the run%. Actually, the fact that you're talking about OFFENSE only shows how illogical the argument is. Unless you're trying to say 2% difference on offense is worth more than Trout's baserunning and defense. (with the %2 being largely a factor of the fact that Cabrera played more)

The writer of the article you linked to fully admitted at the end, that it is more of a feeling, and again left the reader with nothing more than



Placing is no proof of value. Value comes in wins, and how much a player added to them. Just because LA would still be in third place doesn't mean they would be the same team, that's obvious, isn't it? Did you even read the article I linked you to? Essentially, it came back to an argument about leading the team to the playoffs again. And if that's what you really want the MVP to be about, then that's fine, whatever. It's illogical, and comes back to the argument of somehow believing that a single player has that great of an influence, even when in the case of Detroit it was the starting pitchers that carried them to the end.
which is hilarious in the first place because, again, the Angels had a better record in a tougher division.

Back to Bronson, you're basically saying he's bad because he doesn't strike out "enough" batters and because he gives up home runs? Well okay, those home runs aren't really that big of a deal when he never gives up runs any other way, considering his ERA is STILL solid, always hovering at right around 4, which is not bad by any stretch of the imagination. You can throw meaningless sabermetrics like FIP at me all day, but what matters to me is that Bronson is consistently at a 4 ERA in one of the most hitter-friendly ball parks in the MLB. That makes for a solid pitcher. Not good, not bad. Solid. I would take him on my team in a heartbeat, regardless of the team.

also, LOTS OF GOOD PITCHING BY CARDS AND NATS. THIS IS INSPIRING.
 

TrollFreak

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Byrne, stop making fun of our defending WS champs, they're doing just enough to make a shock run like they did last year