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Official Proposal : A French Section

Discussion in 'The Smog' started by Agammemnon, Nov 6, 2011.

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  1. Agammemnon

    Agammemnon A wild Zubat appears!
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    Hello everyone.
    I've been talking with both chaos and Articuno64, and it's been decided that I should make a thread to submit my idea.
    Without further ado, here it is : a french section in Smogon. It might seem big, but I'd like to precise that we'll begin slowly. In fact, I feel the urge to gather both communities (The Big Apple aka Smogon,and the french electron) so we can work together and enhance the quality of everyone's game.
    Currently, the french community lacks some quality work despite some good authors (I'm not denying it, fellows, don't worry) and I think it would be great if we had a translation of The Smog, as a beginning.
    So here is my proposal : I'd like to gather a team and translate The Smog in french, so we can publicate it. It might open the way for the other countries whose players don't speak english fluently (Brazil, for instance). It would beneficiate everyone, as those players, if included in the community, WILL bring a fresh look on the game we all play.
    If this translation works, I have further plans to make everyone happy.

    Agammemnon
  2. Setsuna

    Setsuna Prototype
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    You should have waited for both Rising_Dusk and myself to reply to your message. That said, you're saying a lot of things here making it sound easy and without providing any solid scheme as to how you would carry all this out and without touching any of the several factors that such a project would have to deal with in order to be successful. I do not want this to sound like I'm rejecting this proposal, but take my words very seriously -- doing this involves much more work and organization than you're making it sound in your post. This is also the reason why I started this post saying that I would have preferred you waited for us to get back to you, as I wanted to discuss most of the details that encompass this project before you even brought it to the public. With that out of the way, I've always liked the idea of bringing the Smogon content to other people in their native language, and with that idea in mind I authored this project and coordinated this other one several months ago. Now, what you're proposing here is focused on translating content from The Smog, and even if our magazine isn't something huge, translating its content every issue would still require a lot of work and organization (last issue we featured a total of 32 articles, for example). So, here's what I want to know:

    • How do you plan to approach this? You have never contributed in any shape or form to the Smog, meaning that―unfortunately―you have no knowledge about the planning and preparation to goes down backstage in order to meet the deadlines for each issue and make every release a success. Moreover, it makes sense to me that the translations you and your team carry out be put up onsite later at some point after release (and I'm not thinking a month later or anything like that), so you can see how important the approach you decide to make on this is.
    • Who are the people who would constitute this translations team? I presume you kinda of have an idea / have talked this over with your people already?
    • Quality matters. Said another way, it is a must for the translators to possess a good command of both the English and French languages. Furthermore, your team would need grammar checkers to make sure there is no awkward stuff in what you submit to the site.
    • Not a question but an affirmation: Commitment is vital. Good work, dedication, organization -- it all matters when you plan to contribute to a continuously-in-movement project, and I would expect things to go just well in this―hypothetically speaking―new facet of the Smog.
    The idea alone of translating Smogon content to French is good, I like it, but I want to hear more from you on this matter and get an answer to all these questions, as right now this is nothing but a few lines of words vaguely explaining what is it that's going to be done in order to make this whole thing work successfully.
  3. Agammemnon

    Agammemnon A wild Zubat appears!
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    Because my post isn't organized with chapters and points doesn't mean we are not organized, don't worry.
    I am currently recruiting the best potential translators by submitting them to a battery of tests, and I'll be personnally supervising the whole project, while Maaf, who is hosting the French Time server, will assist me with brio.
    Just to be clear, it'll be both a work and a pleasure for me to traduce Smog stuff from english to french. It'll allow us (i.e. the traducing team and I) to improve our english while staying in the Pokémon sphere, which is always pleasant.
    About the organization, I am finalizing it, and I see your point about waiting before revealing the thing. Sorry about this. I will probably (80% sure, still finalizing) split the work between Basic translators, with grammar checkers... checking their work. I will be personnally involved in this, being both a translator and grammar checker (for other people translations, obviously.) because I care about the project.

    I think I'll be finished with hiring people on 11/11, so here is my proposal : I'll let you know the final staff for this day. Is that okay ?
    We will also need to agree on how I can submit our work. Pastebin/Word, etc.

    If you have any question, feel free to submit them.


    Agammemnon.
  4. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Like I said in my PM discussions with others on this topic, I have nothing against a french Smog. What I don't want, though, is The Smog being translated to french and put on another site. So long as that's clear, we can move forward. Setsuna raises a lot of important concerns, though, and I have some questions I need to mull over too.

    My biggest concern is reorganization of the site for the purposes of having another language. In all other cases, when we introduce another language to Smogon, we start with things like the item pages, etc. These are more relevant to the general population than something specific like The Smog. We have pages and sections of the site like http://www.smogon.com/es/ or http://www.smogon.com/jp/ . I think that starting there and not with The Smog would be a much more feasible plan of attack than starting with The Smog.
  5. Agammemnon

    Agammemnon A wild Zubat appears!
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    Hi Rising_Dusk.
    The work around items and natures might be relevant for sure, but it'll take one or two days. If you want us to do this first to prove our dedication to work, there's absolutely no problem. Just tell me.
    The overall goal is more about introducing a new concept (aka The Smog) to the french sub-community rather than giving it tools it already has.
    Despite this, I have gathered motivated people and we'll see where it leads us, but I'm pretty confident about the job's quality.
    I'd like to make things clear : The Smog will NOT be put on another website. It's clearly not the goal of this. In fact we already have a french paper, written by McMeghan, -Manu- and Grimm70, published on a french website. Your concern can be erased.

    Please keep me in touch about what you'd like to see first, but be sure we'll get the job done. This is not a prank whatsoever.
    Also, as I previously mentioned it, team will be finished soon.


    EDIT : Trustworthy people are willing to help, it pleasures me. For instance, Iconic just told me he'd like to lend a hand. Looks like you got no choice but accept your fate, Smog.
  6. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    I think you should definitely set up a french section of Smogon and do all of that stuff before jumping into The Smog. The Smog has strict deadlines and loads of work in order to keep up with. It also isn't relevant to have the work done after the English Smog is released, since it's all time-sensitive work. Furthermore, having a French The Smog wouldn't really make a lot of sense without all of the other things on this website for reference first. That means I'd want to see you mirror the structure and work done in the Spanish project (for example) before considering The Smog for translation.

    For the record, I talked this over with Setsuna and we are in agreement.
  7. Agammemnon

    Agammemnon A wild Zubat appears!
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    Should I PM you for further informations/questions ?
    Anyway, once the team is gathered, we'll be ready for the first wave of work. Might be for this week-end I guess.
    You'll need to explain me a few things about tags and the layout. (aka Under what form must I forward our translated work ?)
  8. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    I'll be perfectly honest with you, I really won't be able to personally walk you through this, but if you need help or have specific questions, I can help. Either way, you'll need someone with SCMS access and presumably the help of an administrator to get the section made and so forth. You'll also need the SCMS pages and so forth, so yet again you'll need someone with SCMS access (someone who has a badge). Everything is written in HTML with the site's css pages loaded, so if you know HTML that's fine. I've provided a code example of the \es\ section of the site below, the index, for reference.
    HTML:
    [title]
    DPP Contenido en Español
    
    [head]
    <meta name="description" content="Index Spanish articles." />
    
    <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="http://cap.smogon.com/web/cap.css" />
    <style type="text/css">
    #center {
    	text-align:center;
    }
    </style>
    
    [page]
    <div id="center"><img src="/media/es/spanishtrans.png" alt="Logo" /></div>
    
    <br />
    
    <p>Tal  y como el nombre indica, este es un proyecto cuyo objetivo principal es  la traducción del contenido competitivo desarrollado a lo largo de las  ediciones Diamante / Perla / Platino en esta, nuestra web,  Smogon.com.</p>
    
    <p>Durante varios meses, los  fundadores de este proyecto ―<a  href="/forums/member.php?u=29254">Bloo</a> y yo propiamente,  <a href="/forums/member.php?u=32828">Setsuna</a>― junto con  la ayuda de <a href="/forums/member.php?u=17916">RockinX</a>  como colaborador especial, hemos estado trabajando arduamente  (partiendo desde la traducción y pasando por las fases de actualización  del contenido hasta el HTML) con el objetivo de lograr sacar este  proyecto a la luz algún día. Ese día es hoy, y a continuación detallaré  la información que tenemos puesta en la web en estos momentos al igual  que aquello sobre lo que planeamos trabajar más adelante.</p>
    
    <p>Lo  que conforma el objeto principal de traducción ahora mismo, cabe  mencionar, son los artículos que comprenden lo que es <a  href="/dp/types/">Tipos</a> / <a  href="/dp/moves/">Movimientos</a> / <a  href="/dp/items/">Objetos</a> / <a  href="/dp/abilities/">Habilidades</a> / <a  href="/dp/natures/">Naturalezas</a>, tres de los cuales han  sido ya traducidos y puestos <em>on-site</em>. La razón por  la cual decidimos tomar estos como prioridad es simple, y es que se  trata de información que no dejará de ser útil o pasará a estar  desactualizada sin importar el número de ediciones nuevas de Pokémon que  sean lanzadas al mercado. Todo lo contrario ocurre con las guías  extensas y análisis competitivos. A la izquierda de esta sección tienen  el panel en donde pueden encontrar todo el contenido traducido hasta el  momento.</p>
    
    <p>Dejando todo lo dicho anteriormente a  un lado, también deseo abordar el tema del por qué y la importancia de  este proyecto. Smogon es un sitio web bastante grande que alberga  jugadores de incontables nacionalidades, muchos de los cuales proceden  de países de habla hispana en Latinoamérica y Europa, además de todas  aquellas personas que solo les basta con consultar la información  existente en el sitio. Por tanto, puede ser bastante cómodo y útil (e  incluso práctico) el hecho de poder contar con la opción de leer una  parte importante del contenido general en el tercer idioma más hablado a  escala mundial. Esperamos que sea del agrado de todos aquellos que leen  esto ahora mismo.</p>
    
    <p>Finalmente, para acabar  esta introducción me gustaría hacerlo remarcando un par de detalles con  respecto a las traducciones. Lo primero es que, como muchos habrán  notado en varios artículos, el nombre de los objetos está señalizado  tanto en inglés como en español, y esto decidimos hacerlo así debido a  que hay países en los cuales Pokémon solo se comercializa en inglés y  por tanto toda esta cantidad de términos en español podría ser confuso.  Con el tiempo planeamos volver las descripciones más concisas dejando un  solo idioma (español) para cada nombre, pero eso será mas adelante  cuando terminemos de ajustar técnicamente algunos aspectos del sitio. Lo  segundo es el tema de las palabras que han sido puestas en cursiva en  casi el 90% de las descripciones en general. Esto es una práctica común  hoy en día, y el objetivo es enmarcar que la palabra en este formato  procede de una lengua extranjera y su traducción podría afectar su  significado original. Las palabras en cursiva dentro de nuestros  artículos son términos competitivos los cuales casi todo el mundo  conoce, así que no será un problema, pero igualmente es necesaria su  especificación. Por último decir también que donde se ha hecho  referencia a una habilidad, naturaleza o movimiento dentro de una  descripción, hemos redireccionado a la página en inglés de cada uno de  estos; tan pronto como tengamos estas dos secciones hechas en español  cambiaremos los enlaces apropiadamente.</p>
    
    <p>Dicho  esto, solo resta invitarlos a que hagan uso de esta nueva sección en la  web y que participen como deseen en los temas correspondientes que se  han habilitado para el proyecto, los cuales pueden encontrar siguiendo  <a  href="/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=107&prefixid=projects_estranslation">este</a>  enlace.</p>
    
    <p>Continuaremos actualizando estas páginas con contenido nuevo periódicamente. ¡Estén al tanto!</p>
    
    <div id="capfront_footerArea">
    <table id="capfront_footerTable" CELLSPACING=0>
    	<tr>
    		<td class="leftSide"><a href="/es/english_index">English Index</a></td>
    		<td class="rightSide"><a href="/es/credits">Credits Page</a></td>
    	</tr>
    </table>
    </div>
  9. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Regardless of whether you have full informational sections like the Spanish Project, you should definitely at least have a French section explaining the goals of your project, and what you're doing with the project.

    Do hope you have some HTML support, and as R_D has mentioned, you've got to get some badge-holders dedicated to doing the SCMS for this project.
  10. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    I disagree with everything but the final line as a reader of The Smog. I think translating some of the database would be a good way of showing that you can do good translation work, but The Smog is a much better target for translation than much of the site. I don't see why getting it done after the English release is a problem either considering the audience is different and much of the content isn't time-sensitive. It's static content that isn't updated as metagames evolve like analyses. It's also high quality content on competitive Pokemon which we'd want to expose to a wider variety of players.

    It's really great to see players wanting to expand our content to different countries where English isn't the primary language. I've always wanted to see more players from France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc. participating and hopefully this helps!
  11. Vineon

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    Le Smog en français, finalement!

    Moi qui a toujours rêvé de le lire. Merveilleuse initiative!

    Allons enfants de la patriiiiie...... le jour de gloire eeeest arrivé...

    %)

    [​IMG]
  12. Setsuna

    Setsuna Prototype
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    @Firestorm: I understand what you mean, and I also agree with you on that translating the Smog into another language would be amazing; I more or less said this in my last post in this thread anyway. However, while I love the idea, there are some things that I am worried about, and so is Rising_Dusk. Particularly, I don't think it is a good idea to start translating content from the Smog right off the bat when there are several factors that these translators know nothing about. For one, the Smog is a magazine, meaning that things are always in movement and there are deadlines to meet, so by the time most of the articles we feature are finally ready in all three major stages of production (writing, grammar, coding), it usually is release day, pretty much -- and I can tell you this is how things go all the time. Now, with that in mind it is obvious that the French content would necessarily have to go out some time after the English release, and while I don't think this is a terrible idea, my concern is that this alone puts even more pressure on the translators in order to get the French content up onsite as soon as possible. Taking into account the OP has not mentioned anything about his people having experience with this sort of work, added to the fact that most or the totality of them do not know how the Smog works from an internal point of view, leads me to conclude that outright taking on Smog's articles translations at a major scale is only unwise. In a nutshell, I believe the inexperience of the translators, their unacquaintance with how the Smog works and the impact it could have on their work are too important factors to pass up.

    Here is what I propose and what both Rising_Dusk and myself deem the best course of action for this project:
    • OP himself said it: start simple, move on to bigger things later at some point. By starting off with simple—and by simple I mean translation that does not involve any type of pressure and can be done without worrying about time constraints—, yet powerful amounts of work, you will guarantee you and your guys get a feel for what there is to be done and gain the experience we think it requires to jump into following along with the way the Smog magazine works.
    • In addition to the above point, while your team is in the process of translating and putting onsite the content of a presentation page with the goals of the project and whatever dex you decide to work on (items, moves, abilities), we will give you and the other translators access to the Smog Workshop so that you start seeing how things develop throughout the entire production stage of an issue.
    With regards to what you have been told about the SCMS and all that stuff -- I personally won't be able to help with everything, but for creating the new /fr/ sections, cacheing stuff, uploading some art that you might want to put up, and giving a hand with some HTML code, I will be available. In the same vein, if you have questions feel free to message me. Lastly, once you have gathered the team, I would like you to PM both Rising_Dusk and myself with their names and any other information you'd like to add, and I guess that will be it.
  13. Agammemnon

    Agammemnon A wild Zubat appears!
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    PMing Setsuna and Rising_Dusk. Do I need a public list, or is it sufficient ?
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