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Discussion in 'BW Competitive Discussion' started by Antar, Aug 1, 2012.
...and by that, do you mean the Therians or something else?
Luckily, these stats WON'T influence the tiers in any significant way (1 part in 24).
First off, thank you as always for the stats Antar. Especially considering all the server problems we have had this month.
That being said, there is not much here I am really going to invest too much confidence into. All the odd situations lead me to believe that things will be very different in the future.
However, the CAP fanatic in me cannot look at these stats and not comment on one thing:
| 1 | Necturna | 315 | 34.922% | 226 | 32.301% |
| 2 | Tomohawk | 292 | 32.373% | 243 | 34.731% |
This is wrong. Tomo not being number 1 is just... no. no. no. This is why we need more smart battlers playing CAP. Nothing against Necturna, but Tomohawk is the single best Pokemon in the tier, hands down. Granted it does have more real usage, but it should be on more [read: every] team.
| 1 | Necturna | 315 | 34.922% | 226 | 32.301% |
| 2 | Tomohawk | 292 | 32.373% | 243 | 34.731% |
I'm back :o Politoed #1 dissapoints me I wanted a surprise.
I don't see Slowbro having the potential to go OU anymore. In the BW1 metagame I would say that should have happened in the BW1 meta. Now though, Tornadus-T has surpressed most of the fighting types usage so it lost a huge boon to use it. It was cool for being able to switch into Terrakion consistently, but as indicated in the statistics, he is not the top dog threat anymore.
To those saying Heatran's usage indicates that rain is not a centralizing force I would disagree. Heatran is one of the best Pokemon in the tier to tank a specs Hurricane. This factor is especially important for the amoonguss-slowbro-heatran FWG core that was popularized in the begining of the month (which I would say most of Heatran's usage stems from). Heatran is one of the prime SR setterKs in the tier, a role which has become even more important (as if it wasn't amazingly important before :@ ) with more weather wars.
| 44 | Metagross | 18500 | 5.531% | 11268 | 5.633% |
@jas61292 -- Law of small numbers. As you said, get CAP more active, and this kind of thing will straighten itself out. I wish Zarel would log unrated battles as well (he views them as "private"), so we could potentially look at a few more.
That's better percentage-wise than June.
Metagross hasn't been a major force in BW OU for quite some time.
I keep going back further and further to try to find when it was Metagross was a "major force" in OU. It pre-dates MY stats. Metagross was at #32 in May 2011 (but only 5.2%). Before that, I can't find any stats data (is that when we started up our PO server?). So really, Metagross hasn't been a major force in OU since Gen IV.
Well, there's a link at the bottom of the OP of that thread to the April 2011 stats, but that's how far back they go since that was the first month we collected BW data for. It just adds to your point however, since Metagross was 33 at 5.2% then too.
No, Avira plays lower tiers such as UU, RU, and NU and I can understand exactly what he is disappointed about. I mean Ambipom is one of the worst Pokemon in UU, and it's currently #23... Froslass and Mismagius are excellent Pokemon, Froslass as always being an amazing Spikes user and Missy being a good sweeper or even a supporter if it needs to. However those Pokemon are currently in...the 40's? o_o You could argue that in Missy's case Cofagrigus can do a better job defensively and possibly even offensively with Nasty Room, and that's why Missy is so low, but Cofagrigus is actually even lower than both Missy AND Froslass. As excellent of a Pokemon Chandy is it isn't sweeping like Mismagius or supporting a team like Froslass. The addition of Mienshao should make these Ghost-types more common, and I understand that Scrafty could impede some usage from Missy and Froslass, but it clearly isn't stopping Chandelure. I could point out a lot more, especially in LC where all see are teams that don't make sense or use immensely outclassed Pokemon such as Mankey, Cottonee, Duskull, or Onix. I'll just leave this saying...Wartortle is #18 in NU.....o_o
I understand that we have a MUCH higher playerbase now and most of those new users are new players. Since you are a Showdown mod, maybe I could hear your opinion on this before recommending it to Zarel. Beginner Tiers! Once Zarel fixes the ladder, Beginner Tiers should work ok. Only players who don't already have pass from completing Beginner Tiers are allowed in to prevent top tier players from trying to harass new ones, and it allows new players to play against people of their own skill level. This way they improve much more than on the standard tiers where it might end up placing them against opponents they have no chance of beating. Once they reach a certain ranking they are given a pass on their account allowing for access to standard tiers. To prevent better players on a new account to be forced into the beginner program as soon as you make an account you can access a standard tier and if you win 2 out of 3 games, you are allowed to skip straight to standard.
@EBeast--when Zarel gets the PS ladder working (it might actually be working now, based on my experience this afternoon on the OU ladder), this will be implemented just on the basis of the ladder only matching players with similar ratings.*
Of course, this won't translate into stats unless I implement a rating cutoff, which I'd rather not do, but we can discuss it if this truly becomes a "problem."
I doubt it will be--PO's tiers almost exactly match ours, and their playerbase is considered less competitive than ours. The reason for this is that good players play more (or bad players get better by playing more). Some guy with a n00bivire Charizard team playing in OU will eventually get frustrated about getting continuously crushed* and will either (1) stop playing or (2) fix his team. There are exceptions (Molk getting Metang into RU), but in general, this is what we have observed.
*Okay, there's a flaw in my reasoning: if the ladder only matches similarly-rated players, then eventually noobs will only get matched with other noobs. Great for the less-experienced players, bad for the stats. If this turns out to truly be a problem, we can revisit the cutoff question, but we should keep that cutoff low.
Comments here in bold.
Sorry I rushed to conclusions about Avira, but he gave no other information...
Normally I'd love that second idea, but what Antar says is true and therefore "outclasses" Beginner Tiers.
Politoed is beating Scizor now? Makes sense I suppose
It seems if tornadus-I drops, then mienshao and scrafty will get a signnificant drop in usage, but they won't drop to RU by any means. Scrafty is still extremely bulky and its defensive typing is pretty good. Mienshao still hits like a truck regardless. Mew should stay UU because it is completely outclassed in OU by Celebi, Alakazam and jirachi. Hippo just sees no love, so it's not much of a surprise to me, and that means a bulkier sand starter for those who like sand in UU, which might mean stoutland will go up. I don't really see virizion outclassing mienshao or even cobalion for that matter, but it will be a solid choice as grass types are resorted to shaymin or tangrowth.
^ Mew isn't outclassed by anything. None of them can run a stall breaker set, and mew's movepool is far better than any of their's. Mew also lacks counters due to it's extensive movepool. Although it really doesn't have much of niche, so that explains it's low usage.
Sorry ArcticBlast, but Avira was right about Wartortle. Wartortle is the worst spinner in the game-and can't actually break through any common spin-blockers. I know you don't play the lower tiers, but what you said about Wartortle wasn't true.
@SPB33: Sandstream has been banned in UU for a while now-Hippowdown would make a great physical wall though.
| 122 | Stoutland | 280 | 0.451% | 192 | 0.479% |
LOL, how the mighty have fallen... UU's sand ban completely neutered/spayed it as predicted, wouldn't be surprised if it plummeted all the way down to PU at this rate, without Sand Rush it's as mediocre a Normal type as you can get. It may possibly become an unsung hero and rise to OU thanks to sand still existing there, but honestly I severely doubt that.
| 47 | Landorus | 15825 | 4.731% | 9513 | 4.756% |
This however is fairly worrying. Landorus-T is quite a boss with Intimidate and stuff, but to cause a former top 20 Pokemon to fall close to UU range? Especially when it has the strength advantage thanks to Sand Force as well as superior speed? Hopefully when the "new toy" stigma dies down, he'll return to relatively normal usage, although Landorus-T may still be more common.
| 51 | Cofagrigus | 2605 | 4.195% | 1678 | 4.191% |
Great yet sad to see this guy likely rising to UU. He's a great Ghost and a TON better than offenseless Dusclops, but him rising would mean RU losing its most used and arguably its most potent Pokemon, thus shaking up the tiers considerably. Oh well, c'est la vie...
| 34 | Escavalier | 1470 | 7.519% | 1037 | 7.732% |
Odd how though its fellow dropping buddy Nidoqueen rose near the top of the RU stats, this guy is down at lower-mid level. Which is a shame, since its bulk, typing and MEGAHORN warrant far more usage. A sadly underrated mon which definitely deserves more use, don't let it drop to NU people X.X
| 43 | Absol | 1150 | 5.882% | 711 | 5.301% |
Could this guy actually rise up? It's frail and ridiculously reliant on Sucker Punch, but it hits things so damn hard... I guess we'll wait and see, eh?
| 10 | Kyurem-White | 4507 | 18.161% | 2572 | 17.356% |
For what I've seen some describe as "the incarnation of pure POWER" and "the most spammable Pokemon ever created", it has surprisingly low usage. Hoping this gets patched up later, this thing is such a BEAST.
67 | Metang | 364 | 1.862% | 310 | 2.311% |
Tough luck Molk.
I do not understand how Landorus-T cannot be in the top 20. It really is one of the best things in the game right now. Intimidate gives it so much pivot for weatherless teams.
I have to say that I think Ladorus-T kind of surprised most of the more seasoned battlers with how effective it turned out to be. I remember when we learned all its stats and stuff how everyone was talking about how it's incarnate form outclassed it and stuff, but now that it's all said and done it's proven itself to have a pretty large niche due to its combination of bulk and power with still decent speed. I don't know if it deserves top 20, but it has impressed me a lot.
Not that I have much trouble with mind you, but I do have both Mamoswine and Slowbro on my team so I'm kind of the odd one out here lol.
I had to quote when I saw Virizion. I mean it's a great OU pokemon with typing that can come handy in some battles and with good special properties with the calm mind variant. I'm surprised I don't see much anymore. Probably because of Tornadus-T. As for Keldeo, i'm also slightly surprised given the hype usage on wi-fi... but then again this is based off the simulators.
If Chansey drops to UU, i'm packing that all the time along with a fighting type counter because considering there's a lot of fighting type moves that can go down there.
I predict UU may become another tier that succumbs to weather wars.
Keldeo's not dropping anytime soon; the post you quoted was made before the mistakes involving forms were fixed.
This seems unlikely since permaweather is banned in UU.
Yeah, some members in the UU community seem to have an agenda to try and ban all forms of weather from the metagame, so if manually setting up weather of some sort gets very popular there (like how it was with rain in 4th gen UU), they'll probably be do something to nerf it and make it less viable again so nobody uses it.
Thanks for the stats Antar!
I'm kind of happy rain is high in usage over sand, but that is only because for now, people are finally done complaining about Voltturn and Terrakion and stuff like that. Hopefully people won't start complaining about Rain on every single post ever like they did with Sandstream; that would be annoying and a bit depressing, to be honest.
On a side note, there really isn't much of a reason to use Virizion anymore. Breloom is much better at offensive roles in most fronts (especially physically), and Tornadus-T is pretty much on every Rain team ever, and Keldeo also hits its lower physical defense with its Secret Sword. That just really makes it Calm Mind sets harder to set up than before. Speaking of Grass-types, what the heck happened to Celebi's usage!? It took a MASSIVE nosedive... is that only because the formerly super-common Scizor/Rotom-W/Terrakion/Landorous/Tyranitar/Celebi teams are starting to fall out of favor?
Also, manually setting up weather in UU wouldn't be broken by any means - it becomes apparent when you can stall out an attacker out of Rain or allow it only to perform once, which is impossible if it is permanently set up.
EDIT: Of course there was a rage thread on Rain... probably some guy who hated Sand just a month ago.
Antar, thank you, as always, for these statistics.
Just thought I'd comment on a few things:
| 67 | Metang | 364 | 1.862% | 310 | 2.311% |
Good to see that the usage Metang received courtesy of Molk previously is not being replicated this time around. Hopefully, it will be forgotten and eventually drop back to NU, where it belongs.
| 75 | Tornadus | 5277 | 1.578% | 3266 | 1.633% |
Not too surprised at this; the Therian forme of Tornadus is much more balanced out, in terms of stat spread, and generally superior to it in most ways (e.g. its new-found bulk and Regenerator). Expecting to see this in UU quite soon. Can't wait.
| 56 | Kingdra | 10058 | 3.007% | 5798 | 2.899% |
Interesting to see Kingdra so close to OU levels of usage; to me, it's a marked difference to its 2.637% usage last month. Since I don't play OU that often, however, I'm at a loss as to why it's increased in usage.
| 2 | Golurk | 5405 | 14.162% | 3931 | 15.531% |
| 2 | Nidoqueen | 3271 | 16.731% | 2502 | 18.655% |
I was expecting something along the lines of that for both of these Pokemon, as they can now wreak havoc in their new tiers, with Nidoqueen's ability to break through walls and laugh at Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock in RU and Golurk's spin-block-SR niche in NU. Pretty clear why they've hit such high levels of popularity.
That's about all I have to say. Again, thank you for these statistics, Antar. Much appreciated.
Countering rain teams. With Keldeo and the Therians...well, you can see how Politoed's jumped to #1 in usage. Kingdra obviously works quite well if your opponent's obliging enough to set up rain for you, and it's a half-decent sweeper on its own.
I don't play NU, but I know for a fact that Tyrogue, Spinda, and Delibird are way worse at spinning than Wartortle. Especially Delibird.