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Official Tier Leader + chaos vote on default simulator level for XY tiers

Discussion in 'The Policy Review' started by Aldaron, Oct 23, 2013.

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  1. Aldaron

    Aldaron wu tang clan ain't nothin to fuck wit
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    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  2. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    I'm voting for level 100.

    At first I was a supporter of switching to level 50 because I figured there were no real downsides (at the time I was unaware of the change in Speed tiers and damage output), but after talking with a lot of people on IRC I changed my mind.

    While the changes in Speed tiers are easy to adjust to (no harder than the mechanics changes between generations, anyway), the increased damage output does a lot of funky things to the meta (for example, CB Terrakion going from a minimal chance to OHKO Garchomp to a pretty legit chance), and that is something that isn't worth dealing with just for the sake of a slightly more unified ruleset.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
    Ojama, Jirachee, SOMALIA and 7 others like this.
  3. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    LEVEL 100

    reasoning (open)

    I just believe for the purpose of this discussion, both sides should stop ignoring the arguments of the other sides. Lv 50 proponents, especially the sheer amount of them who don't actually play this game, really need to stop undermining the difficulty of adjusting between 100 to 50 and back for multiple gens especially the longer you've been playing this game. It's legitimately instinctive, we just "know" what lives and what doesn't, what outruns and what doesn't, and it's always difficult playing against instinct. I do not believe that ignoring that for the sake of this proposal is legitimate, or bringing it up being infraction worthy. Likewise, considering the what, 10 years, of lv 100, the burden of change is on the side advocating 50. As such, "it's not a big deal" is not a valid argument. It is not enough to say "the lv 50 swap is not a big deal, and since you cannot prove that it is, we should do it." That is both egregious and fallacious.

    Now, I recognize the desire to make it easier for future Wifi players who want to use Smogon stuff. But I, in an attempt not to dismiss the argument, really don't get why that's such a huge deal. I likewise do not think that side has met its burden. The OP itself even engages in that burden of proof fallacy that is legitimately rampant through this entire thread. "There are two main counterarguments to this proposition: tradition and "simulators should remove all the hard work." To these two counterarguments, I say, "Why?" Is there really a need for us to continue the trend of Lv100 battles simply due to tradition?" is does not actually say anything. It is asking for the lv100 proponents to prove their counterarguments, when we should instead be requiring the lv50 proponents to prove their arguments.

    In my opinion, we should stay with lv100. I believe this because, honestly, tradition. 5 gens of lv 100 and 1 gen of lv 50 seems clunky, awkward, and annoying to deal with for tours that require multiple generations. We should not in any way revert to lv 100 for tournaments (I believe I saw this mentioned) if the official tier is lv 50--that just establishes we have no confidence in our decision. I likewise believe that the amount of good that has been stated is a severe exaggeration on the part of the lv 50 proponents. The analyses work for lv 50 and lv 100. That's just true. The strategy behind the Pokemon do not change, and minor differences can be accounted for in the analyses if necessary. The game is not less accessible for Wifi players. Wifi players that want to play on Smogon simulators will. If they want to stay Wifi, then they will. The level difference is not going to change that. Finally, it has been shown multiple times in this thread that obtaining Level 100 Pokemon and breeding perfect Pokemon is actually incredibly easy, Rare Candies or not.

    Considering what the proposal is supposed to do, and what it will actually do, I do not believe the lv 50 proponents have met their burden. While their might be some minutely positive changes, it is not worth the net harm that it causes (deviation from tradition, relearning process for many users). I believe we should stay at Level 100. The simulator has been simulating what we CAN have. It always has been. We have always played with level 100 Pokemon with perfect IVs and obscure events because it's POSSIBLE. Leveling to 100 is most definitely possible and in fact easy, and does not in any way detract from simulator philosophy. This should not affect Smogon metagames.
    Fat Lenny, Ojama, Shame That and 15 others like this.
  4. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    Level 100

    Blara's post pretty much sums up my thoughts on this :/
    Ojama, Nails, Soulgazer and 7 others like this.
  5. Hugendugen

    Hugendugen Noam Chompsky.
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    Level 100

    I have three main points that I'd need to be convinced of to vote for Level 50 and so far I haven't been convinced.
    1. Does changing to Level 50 add enough depth to make up for the added complexity? Base stats have the most influence at Level 100, so it can be argued that some Pokemon with good movepools but mediocre stats would be made slightly more viable at Level 50. However the change also makes Level 1 Pokemon like Aron unviable, due to being auto-leveled to 50, and I don't think that enough overall depth is added to make up for the complexity of (slightly) more inconvenient IV and EV calculations.
    2. Is there actually a significant Wi-Fi community to draw in by changing to Level 50? From what I've heard, most YouTube Wi-Fi'ers actually prefer Level 100. I've only spoken to 3rd party sources, so this might not be entirely accurate, but I haven't heard convincing arguments that there would be a major group of players to draw in. Nonetheless, we should still keep the Wi-Fi community in mind, especially while writing analyses.
    3. Is it really significantly easier to get a Level 50 team than to get a Level 100 team? The only Pokemon that this is really relevant to are XY mons and those that get a new relevant egg move in Gen 6. The others can be transferred from Gen 5 once PokeBank comes out, where it's easy to get Level 100 Pokemon using AR. Additionally it's really quite easy to get to Level 100 in XY, with the new EXP Share mechanics, Lucky Egg, O-Powers and all of the postgame training areas like restaurants and the battle chateau. I currently have a team of Level 100's without trying very hard at all. Finally it feels like we're considering one "barrier to entry" while ignoring a number of others - getting an AR was a barrier to entry, correct IVs and Natures are a barrier to entry, getting moves that you don't learn until late levels (like Mewtwo's Psystrike at Level 100) is a barrier to entry. At the same time, using Level 50 is a barrier to entry for new players to get into old gens for example for the Smogon Tour. Overall I just don't think that the "barrier to entry" argument is convincing enough to move from five generations worth of precedent.
    I would honestly be fine with either Level 50 or Level 100, but given the above points lean slightly towards the latter. It's already possible in challenges just by setting the levels lower, but I'd also be open to having a Level 50 ladder in Other Metagames, if we do go with Level 100.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
    Furai, Fat Lenny, Nails and 7 others like this.
  6. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Level 100.

    Adding to what Blara and Hugen said, we have always simulated the ideal of what we can get (competitive battling), and that includes perfect ivs and some obscure moves like Wish Bliss (ADV event), or NYPC (GSC), and of course the max possible level (level 100).
    That is what we have always done, and I dont see a reason to change that, only because there is no level 100 auto level ingame (and getting a level 100 mon ingame is easy, easier than getting a perfect / near perfect mon, but thats irrelevant in competitive battling)
  7. Haunter

    Haunter 100% avocado
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    Level 100.

    1) the spirit of the tradition. The vast majority of our playerbase is used to play level 100 battles and has been playing with this rule for years. Changing it upon a whim makes little to no sense. Level 100 battles are a habit and, as ancient Latins used to say: "consuetudo est servanda";
    2) while Nintendo seems to be pushing towards level 50 metagames, it's still technically possible to play with level 100 Pokemon on cartridges. Therefore, by choosing to simulate level 100 battles, we're not altering any game mechanic;
    3) the argument that level 50 teams are easier to obtain in-game is trivial and kind of irrelevant. Firstly, with the new breeding and training mechanics, it's much easier than it was in past Generations to get a team of 6 level 100 Pokemon, with perfect (or close to perfect) IVs. Secondly, it doesn't really matter how much time it takes to get a fully trained, level 100, team. What matters is that it's technically doable;
    4) I don't think that, by adopting the standard level 100, we're erecting any barrier for WiFi players who might be interested into trying Pokemon Showdown. I know many Showdowns users who mainly play WiFi and who come on PS to test their teams before actually breeding/training their Pokemon in-game. The level difference doesn't really prevent WiFi players from enjoying our simulator. It's never been the case and I don't see why things should change suddenly.

    Basically, I don't see any relevant reason as to why we should change the status quo. Switching to level 50 battles would just displease a good portion of our senior players, without bringing any concrete benefit.
    dice, Jayde, Ojama and 6 others like this.
  8. Nachos

    Nachos
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    Level 100

    I'm not completely opposed to Level 50, but I echo some of the points on the pro-level 100 side that have already been mentioned and therefore sway me in that direction. Namely, Hugendugen's points 2 and 3 and basically all of what blarajan said.
    Jayde, Nails, PDC and 1 other person like this.
  9. Aldaron

    Aldaron wu tang clan ain't nothin to fuck wit
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    that's 7 of the 13 needed; closing

    our official tiers will remain 100
    dice, Furai, capefeather and 15 others like this.
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