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Official Tier List Discussion

Discussion in 'Pokémon Policy' started by Misty, Nov 10, 2007.

  1. Misty

    Misty oh
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    This topic is designed to hold the discussion of the current tier list.

    http://www.smogon.com:81/dp/articles/tiers

    Any reasonable suggestion for changes should be brought up here for debate, because the decisions in this topic will be reflected on the site.

    (for now this is DP only, that may change later)
  2. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Shedinja BL->UU

    As I explained:

    Shedinja no longer has access to physical Hidden Power. Its physical movepool now consists of X-Scissor, Shadow Claw, Shadow Sneak, Aerial Ace, Return, and uh Natural Gift I guess. It's slow enough so that it can't really abuse Swords Dance (because if they have a counter, they're switching to it, and it's almost always faster and not OHKOed by Shadow Sneak). It can't Baton Pass Agilities (illegal combo), and if it uses Agility, it will still only get in one hit on its counter, just like if it attacked on the switch.

    Stealth Rock is still easy to get on Pokemon in UU, as well as a bunch having Spikes and even Toxic Spikes, which instantly spell Shedinja's end.




    Venusaur could also be moved down to UU, because it's not that much better than things like Vileplume, Victreebel, and Meganium.


    Actually, it would probably be easier if I were to just list all BL that I recommend moving down. If anyone questions any of these movements, then just say so, and I'll explain, but there's no point making an argument for something if people agree with me. Pokemon with a ? are those that I'm less confident on.

    * Ambipom ?
    * Arcanine (unless some Waters get moved up)
    * Articuno ?
    * Claydol ?
    * Cloyster ?
    * Drapion ?
    * Empoleon ?
    * Entei (especially if guys like Hariyama, Arcanine, and Claydol get moved down, unless some Waters get moved up) /edit: I just learned Entei gets Will-O-Wisp now, so that's a bit more dubious of a move
    * Hariyama
    * Honchkrow
    * Jolteon ?
    * Leafeon
    * Lickilicky
    * Mismagius ?
    * Porygon2 ?
    * Regigigas
    * Sceptile
    * Shedinja
    * Steelix
    * Tauros ?
    * Torterra ???
    * Venusaur


    I also move that the following NFEs be added to the tiers under UU:

    * Scyther
    * Magmar
    * Electabuzz
    * Trapinch
    * Poliwhirl
    * Clamperl
    * Vigoroth
    * Pikachu




    I'd also like for Wobbuffet to be tested out in OU. It's 2HKOed by a ton of stuff now, is ruined by Toxic Spikes, and stallers still have a way to get around it. With how common weather is, it can't rely on Leftovers for healing, either. The Pursuit weakness is another huge problem. Improved Taunt means stuff can set up easier, too, without fear of Encore.
  3. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    i still dont really get how any of us are qualified to sound off on the non-OU stuff, like seriously who here has used sceptile and tauros enough in BL to say with enough certainty that either should be UU
  4. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    The only way to test if something is unbalancing in UU is to use it in UU. Keeping it in BL assures that it will not be tested, as it would then be banned from UU.
  5. Mekkah

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    Let's start making UU teams and battle each other then? Also, for OU, why not just take X-Acts suggestion and use only Pokemon that are in 5% or more of the ladder teams or Shoddy? That would place things like Tentacruel and Abomasnow in OU, of course.

    Also Snover and Hippotittotasotitas in BL because I don't think permanent weather in UU is going to be cool. Unless you want to test it of course - I know for a fact Hipmonlee thinks it's not broken.
  6. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    I'm for banning them from UU if for no reason other than the fact that Hippowdon and Abomasnow are OU, and they have no advantage over their fully evolved counterparts.
  7. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    Just to clarify, I didn't say to put the Pokemon used by 5% or more teams in OU. I left the percentage number open for future calculation.

    On topic, I'd reiterate my plea to move Slowking from UU to BL. With Slack Off and great SpDef (better than Hypno and Grumpig), it'll probably be too much of a special wall in UU. Not to mention that it has also Nasty Plot and 100 base SpAtk to go for it, as well as a solid movepool, and Trick Room if it wants to sweep.
  8. Mekkah

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    Also, we should give this idea consideration. Like 6-7 people in that thread agreed.
  9. Mr.E

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    I don't know about Tauros, but Sceptile is fucking amazing and it would be a travesty to relegate it to relatively feeble UU company. That said, how do we define "too powerful for UU?" It can't simply be about what is available to counter said pokémon.

    Just to follow along Obi's list:

    Hariyama should easily stay in BL. It's always been very similar to Machamp, just Machamp is far more popular with the addition of No Guard. It still has essentially the same movepool and stats (with a couple oddball additions like Knock Off and Whirlwind) and Thick Fat gives it a very well-rounded set of resistances.

    Sceptile... 120 base Speed Subseeding puts even the most bog standard team in fits and it still hits plenty hard since Subseeding in general absolves any need for defensive EVs. In UU, where defenses are generally weaker, it could really wreck havoc.

    Jolteon is possibly too strong to move down. Gamebreaking Speed and T-Wave immunity (Volt Absorb is a damned good trait). The ability to Baton Pass makes it a bit unpredictable (plus untrappable) and it's still fairly strong offensively. Zapdos and Raikou don't exactly blow it away, it should stay in their company.

    I'm iffy on Articuno and Venusaur but wouldn't be completely opposed to them moving down. Venusaur is pretty good but it's not significantly different from its Poison/Grass cousins like Obi said. Nobody's advocating Vileplume and Victreebel for BL. ;/ Articuno is good defensively-clerically but it is pretty unused and not overly powerful that we couldn't let some people enjoy it in UU instead of placing it in BL so nobody uses it anywhere.

    Everything else I wouldn't have a problem moving down.

    My suggested additions: Blaziken, Espeon, Floatzel, Moltres, Roserade, Umbreon, Zangoose, Magmortar. Infernape does everything Blaziken does but better, is Blaziken's similarily and additional versatility (Brave Bird, Endrev, can't it BP too?) why we want it in BL? Jump probably has his experience with Espeon and Floatzel as to why they're in the list. Moltres is in the same vein as Articuno; packs a whallop, sure, but completely one-dimensional, predictable, and still suffers from its typing. Roserade in the vein of Venusaur, except Venusaur can actually take a hit. ;/ Umbreon couldn't hurt Corsola any worse than it could Salamence, but it is too strong defensively to move down? Zangoose is just one of a hundred Normals with offensively-skewed stats; these days I think Ursaring is more dangerous than it. Magmortar is versatile, but its typing sucks and its stats are kinda goofy (too slow, huge SpA when most of its utility is physically-based).

    Perhaps work on the number a bit, as per what X-Act says, but I think it's a good idea. It's against my personal philosophy, but most of us seem to be onboard with the "overused is based solely on usage" thing. The most logical way to follow through with that would be to, SURPRISE, base OU solely on usage. Follow the numbers...

    Then we still have to decide which non-OU pokémon to move up to BL, which is basically what most of us are discussing now.

    Touchy subject to be banning non-ubers, but anyway...

    Garchomp is only broken because of Sand Veil, and thus only broken because of Sand Stream (which can also come from Hippowdon). Offensively, defensively, it's just a generally strong pokémon like a Metagross or a Salamence. The only real issue comes from the fact that oops, your Ice Beam just missed and Garchomp swept you. Using Substitute just exasperates the problem. But in lieu of making up stupid restrictions like "no Garchomp + T-Tar/Hippowdon" or modding the server (or, for now, asking Colin to do so on Shoddy) to remove Sand Veil, maybe Garchomp should be banned.

    I don't think T-Tar is too powerful. I treat it much like Blissey. Is it a bit much that Blissey is such a strong catch-all special wall WITH recovery while already being a very good support unit and status absorber? It sure is. Strong enough that we've banned Blissey? Nope. In that same vein, T-Tar probably shouldn't have been given such a strong [special] defensive boost in addition to its previous strengths but it isn't strong enough to ban.
  10. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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    About the OU tier determined from Shoddy battle statistics (or Competitor in the future, maybe) idea, would that mean that the OU list ends up being updated every time the Shoddy battle statistics are updated, though (which could be as often as once a month)? I personally wouldn't mind this much, but maybe it's not something everyone would like... maybe people would prefer a more set-in-stone tier list.
  11. Amazing Ampharos

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    I really don't see how you could not use Shoddy Battle statistics for this. Shoddy Battle is where the metagame is right now, and ladder play eliminates most joke teams. If you want to minimize the role of random bad players, you can use the weighted statistics. I look at the current list and see things like Aerodactyl in OU and Abomasnow in BL, and for usage tiers, it just makes no sense. Abomasnow is factually used more than Aerodactyl; Aerodactyl can't be in OU while Abomasnow is in BL. The same problem lies with comparisons like Slowbro and Emploeon

    95% of Pokemon used being OU is a really cool number for a few reasons. For one, for October at least, it's the same top 57 (which constitute 95%). For two, it really encompasses just about everything which is the metagame. If you're part of the least common 5%, it's safe to say you're not having much of an impact on the metagame (which is why something like Celebi really, really has no place at all in OU)! It does require increasing the size of OU a lot (from 42 to 57), but I think it's really worth it.
  12. chaos

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    I agree with AA
  13. Maniaclyrasist

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    This thread http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=454232 did already give us some insight to the use of Wobbuffet in OU and it did seem to still be "broken" despite the many ways of apparently getting around it introduced in D/P whether it be in the form of Toxic Spikes, Taunt or Pursuit.

    Still I suppose it can still be tested if anyone thinks it might still be a valid candidate for OU.

    As for some of the pokemon suggest to be moved down i'm going to agree with:

    Ambipom
    Its attacking capabilities arent really that high with only base 100 Attack and base 60 Special Attack and the majority of its physical attacks can be walled by most bulky waters as well as Gligar if it is still allowed.
    Considering a Nasty Plot set it will be walled by the majority if not all the special walls in UU, Baton Passing Nasty Plots is probaly its best option and there are other things in UU that can do that as well argurably it does have very high speed but i honestly dont think it will matter that much given its mediocre stats.

    Claydol

    It's not too strong defensively and it's Psychic typing does hamper it a bit with alot of the stonger physical attackers running Bug or Ghost moves, I think this one should be moved to UU.

    Cloyster

    Weak to SR, terrible special defence, horrible defensive type albeit the strong defence stat, pretty good UU candidate in my opinion .

    Drapion

    I think this probaly needs some testing, it could do extremely well given its fairly good defensive stats and it still has a somewhat decent attack stat which can be boosted with Swords Dance but i don't think its overbearingly powerful in UU.

    Leafeon

    Terrible move pool and its stats dont compliment its type for the UU enviroment where it is generally better for grass types to have higher special attack and special defence stats. It does get Swords Dance and Baton Pass which do allow it to pose some sort of a threat but in all i don't think it would be that powerful in the UU enviroment.

    Shedinja

    Agreeing with the reasons stated above.

    Steelix

    It would be the best defensive wall that UU has to offer, similar to Blissey in OU regarding special walls, but it does have rather mediocre stats, its attack and special defence aren't that high, it does also lack a reliable recovery move arguably that can easily be helped with wish support although that can be said for pretty much any wall with no recovery move.
    It seems like a fine candidate for UU or at least needs some testing in the enviroment.

    Torterra

    I think this warrants some testing in UU. It has decent defensive stats, but it still has that dual Ice weakness and its Special Defence is only average. It's Attack stat as well as its movepool do pose some issues as it does get some great attacks such as STAB Wood Hammer, Earthquake as well as Crunch and Superpower making it a very capable CBer.
    It also does have support options such as Leech Seed, Light Screen, Roar and can even run a Curse or Rock Polish set.

    Venusaur

  14. Mekkah

    Mekkah
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    Just thought I'd throw this in here:

    Ambipom is #44 in Shoddybattle's usage thing. Depending on where you draw the line for OU <-> BL, it might not even be relevant how good he is considering you may very well throw him into OU. He is above Froslass and Tentacruel, Pokemon that get astounding amounts of play because they fill certain niches in stallish teams, and these have been considered OU before. He is two spots below Dragonite, who is considered OU. Hell, he's used about FOUR TIMES as much as Tauros.
  15. Misty

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    If we're going to use shoddy's usage data, the question arises as to how we decide what is important. Do we put the top 30 in OU? Top 50? Top 100? If we go down too far, we could be changing the list almost daily to handle tiny shifts. On the other hand, if we don't go far enough, we'll be ignoring things that will be encountered regularly.

    Further, I will reiterate my dislike of the current BL tier, which I consider to be a complete fabrication and entirely meaningless. The only thing it's based on is where people feel it "should be", which is really just based on notions from previous UUs and not a concept of what would be beneficial to DP UU.

    My suggestion is that we start by developing a meaningful OU tier, using shoddy's list as a basis but not a law (we can pay lipservice to it if you think it might be helpful to new battlers, which I do), then open up a UU metagame where everything not OU or uber is allowed, and try to determine whether certain Pokemon should be removed. I consider that the only reasonable way to create the best metagames possible ;[
  16. Mekkah

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    As I said, X-Act's % way of doing it sounds like the best to me. However, that becomes less necessary when you agree with...

    I just thought about it this way today: the main argument for keeping BL and OU seperated in the Pokemon world is to give people a threat list of sorts. Except...we have threat lists already on the RMT forum. Of course, if we actually had an up-to-date OU tier it'd help when constructing teams to see what are the most used Pokemon, while the threat lists and, when looking for even more in-depth info, Pokemon Analyses could be used for specific strategies.

    The other argument that pops to my mind is that people might like a BL-metagame...but that's basically UU-and-a-half. OU would become a faux tier as well, and you'd have to "ban things from BL because they're too strong", or you must feel content with the idea that BL will be an unbalanced metagame, just like Uber.

    Just thinking aloud here.
  17. Misty

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    As I've always said, "if BL was playable, BL would be UU". There's no point in a pseudo-tier to protect playability if playability already exists.
  18. Jumpman16

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    I have experience with Floatzel in OU, and that's it. I haven't yet used Espeon in DP, OU or UU. Therefore I would be basing my thoughts on my pokemon intellect and nothing else. And that's something, as I have maintained for months now, should not be what we base the tiers off of.

    This is what I feel the real issue is. I mean, we can pretend that our (most of us Inside Scoopers) smarts can accurately tier the "obvious" BL pokemon that would clearly (to us) be too strong for UU. But that is not going to work. On one level, that method is going to be faulty, when we try to tier things like Tauros, playing it by ear when we don't even know the melody of UU. On a higher level, though, it's actually somewhat presumptive for us to go by what those of us with pokemon intelligence, but no UU experience, have to say about the UU tier. If it were true that Floatzel and Espeon were actually considered UU, and I were to go into that huge stickied thread and say "no, what the hell, they should be BL because [jumpman wall of words]" but I haven't actually used either in UU, so what would that really say? I may be able to convince the community that they are indeed BL, but that's cheap and borderline (no pun intended) power abuse. That's not what I think the tiering system should be about.

    Now, of course, it would save time for us to listen to the wisdom of people like Mr. E and Obi (and myself, the mighty Jumpman16) talking about the tiering of UU pokemon (and yeah, I meant to say "UU" not "BL" in my previous post). This would both save time and largely be based on the kind of pokemon wisdom that is the very lifeblood of this forum and this community. But that doesn't really make it right. I don't see why "we" are continually trying to pretend that we are currently possessing of the means by which all of the tiers can be shaped. We aren't. Nobody with the aforementioned "pokemon intelligence" has played the UU metagame for any period of time by which he or she can state beyond a shadow of a doubt what is UU and what is BL, in shady cases like Venusaur and Tauros.

    I honestly don't know why we are still attempting to argue about UU and BL pokemon. Talk is cheap — those of us with pokemon intelligence should be playing UU, not talking about it.
  19. Mekkah

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    Following Jumpman's lead, why don't we go and play UU together in some kind of tournament? We could even do it for Inside Scoop only if needed. It encourages people to play, at least moreso than if you're like "guys stop talking we need to PLAY UU!!!" all the time and nothing beyond that.
  20. X-Act

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    Couldn't ubers also be considered as a complete fabrication and about what OU "should be", though?

    BL is only there to make UU balanced, nothing more. If it is deemed that UU is balanced enough as it is, then the BL tier is scrapped.

    At least, I _hope_ that the members of the uber tier were chosen for the OU tier to be balanced, and not for what OU "should be".
  21. Jumpman16

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    yes the uber is based off of power, we don't pretend it's balanced at all
  22. Misty

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    The uber tier was made through thought and a bit of testing (specifically with respect to Manaphy and, accidentally, Wobbuffet).
  23. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Wobbuffet was only tested on WiFi, which is pretty different from Shoddy / Competitor / whatever.
  24. Misty

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    My personal position on Wobbuffet is that you're open to host an OU+Wobbuffet tournament and see if it balances. For now the WiFi results are "good enough" to determine that the basis for Wobbuffet's ADV ban is still at least somewhat significant.
  25. david stone

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    I read that warstory and I don't see where the "This proves Wobbuffet is broken" comments came from. It was used to give Smeargle 1 turn. There are plenty of ways to get a single turn, but OK... I'd love to say more, but I need to write my English paper.

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