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Old team, full of awesome. Maybe?

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Epic Cherubi, Nov 30, 2009.

  1. Epic Cherubi

    Epic Cherubi

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]





    [​IMG]@ Leftovers
    Relaxed
    252 HP / 48 Defense / 208 Special Defense

    Payback
    Earthquake
    Rapid Spin
    Toxic Spikes

    Toxic Spikes eliminate many grounded pokemon, like Blissey, Celebi, Swampert and Raikou, all of which are threats to Suicune. Lead Adamant Mamoswine Earthquake 4HKOs unless it rolls max damage all three times while Swampert Earthquake caps at 25%. 56 Special Attack Hydro Pump will almost always 3HKO, but will often miss at least once. Surf always 4HKOs, regardless of the damage roll. I'm experiment with different EV spreads. Might even go back to max HP / max special defense. The added move coverage of Earthquake lets me hit Magnezone so I don't ALWAYS need Shed Shell (Earthquake OHKOs Magnezone after Stealth Rocks about 33% of the time, always with residual damage). Payback hits Celebi and Rotom to help wear them down so Suicune can sweep. I'm running Relaxed so I'm slower then other Forretress, which lets me spin their layers away as they lay them. Many common leads are set up on, and those that aren't are normally open to a quick switch to Tyranitar (Azelf)



    [​IMG] @ Lum Berry
    Adamant
    252 HP / 16 Attack / 240 Special Defense

    Stone Edge
    Pursuit
    Stealth Rock
    Rest

    EVed to do a minimum of 95% to Roserade, and to survive anything it does in return before falling to Sandstorm. Special Defense will survive all Gengar Focus Blasts except for Specs, but even LO Gengar Focus Blast will not OHKO 67% of the time. Pursuit is great for picking off Scarfers like Latias, Gengar and Rotom but also can 2HKO a fleeing Tentacruel. Rest works well with Lum Berry to stay alive against repeated volleys from Starmie and Latias but also helps break down Will-O-Wisping Rotoms and negate unforturnate freezes that might let Scarf Starmie live to see another day (or worse, Trick my Suicune). Stone Edge sucks, I would like to find another move.. possibly Ice Punch or Thunder Wave.



    [​IMG] @ Leftovers
    Bold
    252 HP / 252 Defense / 4 Special Defense

    Surf
    Calm Mind
    Rest
    Sleep Talk

    The late game immortal. Suicune is virtually unstoppable after a Calm Mind. Even defensive Zapdos and Celebi fails to 2HKO after a single Calm Mind, and will ALWAYS 4HKO after two. Modest Starmie and Timid Gengar Thunderbolts 4HKO after just a single boost while Suicune easily destroys both of them with STAB Surfs. Even offensive LO Celebi Leaf Storm will not OHKO, and Suicune can actually Rest right in front of it, sponging subsequent hits (it does have a respectable chance of 3HKOing). Physical hitters like Salamence, Lucario and Scizor are playing a dangerous game since the former will be worn down by Stealth Rocks, Sandstorm and Life Orb while the latter two take heavy damage from +1 Surfs. Gyarados can attempt to Dragon Dance alongside me, but like Salamence it will often die to sand and Stealth Rocks. "Cro" Gyarados almost always loses one on one since it needs to be at +5 before Waterfall 3HKOs, and +6 for a guarenteed 3HKO. Depending on the EV spread, Surf will 3HKO Gyarados on average at +4 with a 252/176 spread, and with a physically inclined set a 3HKO is likely at just +3.

    Blah blah blah, if I can avoid Trick and Explosion Suicune is immortal. All calculations assume Sandstorm is active.



    [​IMG] @ Leftovers
    Timid
    252 HP / 252 Speed / 4 Defense

    Calm Mind
    Dragon Pulse
    Recover
    Reflect

    HP Fire means opposing Gengar can speed tie with Latias AND fry Forretress with its own HP Fire so I'm running Reflect instead. Reflect deals with Scizor well enough anyway. Blissey isn't 2HKOed by +6 Dragon Pulse but Latias always beats it with Toxic Spikes so the 128 Special Attack EVs don't seem that important to me, as opposed to sponging Reflected Pursuits. Specially Defensive Skarmory is always 2HKOed by +6 Dragon Pulse so next to Blissey, nothing will last against Latias on stall. Reflect is not just for letting Latias survive her counters but also assists Suicune since Gyarados and Salamence die horribly if Suicune has Reflect up.



    [​IMG] @ Leftovers
    Jolly
    252 HP / 252 Speed / 4 Defense

    Taunt
    Toxic
    Earthquake
    Roost

    216 Speed wasn't enough, as I often lost the speed tie with other Gliscors. 220 was unreliable too, and I eventually used 236 before giving up and just maxing it. Now the majority of Zapdos, Roserade, Gliscor and Salamence are outrun. Throwing around Taunt catches things like Rotom and Latias from dropping a Trick and random Brelooms from Sporing. Taunt and Roost together eliminate many stall pokemon such as Skarmory and Foretress, who are PP stalled. Speed lets Gliscor take on non-scarfed Heatran somewhat reliably, as Flamethrower doesn't do enough and Fire Blast misses behind my Sand Veil. Counters any Tyranitar without Ice Beam and switches in on most sleep moves with around a 50% chance of them missing outright (52% chance of Hypnosis missing and 40% chance of Sleep Powder crapping out). Toxic takes out Rotom and wards off Blissey while beating defensive Celebi nearly all of the time. Celebi Grass Knot tops at 27% while Roosted HP Ice doesn't even 2HKO.



    [​IMG] @ Choice Scarf
    Jolly
    252 Speed / 252 Attack / 4 HP

    Iron Head
    Thunder Punch
    Fire Punch
    Trick

    The cleanser, hunter and threat checker. Jirachi matches +1 Jolly Salamence and beats virtually every other pokemon in OU. If something starts to set up, more often then not Jirachi can flinch it to hell it or lock it in place with Trick. Iron Head deals sufficient damage that anything hurt by Toxic Spikes is often killed before even firing a single shot. Sandstorm wears down opponents fast enough that Gyarados and Salamence can sometimes be KOed by resisted Iron Heads. Nasty Plot Azelf, Breloom, Lucario, Gengar and random other stuff I couldn't ever dream of facing are obliterated before they can cause much damage. I would like to use U-Turn over Thunder Punch, but I'm too easily beaten by Gyarados.
  2. Epic Cherubi

    Epic Cherubi

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  3. polelover44

    polelover44

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    Hello there.

    I recommend replacing Skarmory with a bulky Swords Dance Scizor. Bulky SD Scizor still hits amazingly hard, and gives you survival. Gliscor can deal with opposing Scizors, as well as Suicune, so you shouldn't have too much trouble. Replacing Skarmory with Scizor also lessens your Electric weakness - and anything with Electric moves usually has Ice moves, or can beat Gliscor one on one.

    Scizor @ Leftovers
    Technician
    Adamant
    252 HP, 76 Atk, 176 SpD, 4 Spe
    Swords Dance
    Roost
    Bullet Punch
    Brick Break

    Pokémon who usually wall Scizor - Bulky Waters, Gliscor, Bronzong, are setup fodder. Scizor takes ~35% from their attacks, and can easily get to +6 and destroy them. Even without Life Orb. This set, with these EVs, at full health, always survives Modest SpecsZone T-Bolt. It also has a 75% chance of surviving Timid ScarfZone's HP Fire at full health, and can easily KO with Brick Break. Also beats opposing CroCunes one on one. An amazing Pokémon.

    Set made by Legacy Raider.
  4. Snorlaxe

    Snorlaxe 2 kawaii 4 u
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    Hello, this is a cool team, but there are some suggestions I want you to try out. First off, I suggest replacing Skarmory with Smeargle, and moving him to the lead position to use as a Spike-stack lead. Skarmory I feel is much to defensively minded for this mostly offensive team, and would slow down your offensive momentum quite a bit. Smeargle is an excellent anti-lead, and great at laying down Spikes AND Stealth Rock early on in the game with little effort. Use a set of Spore, Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Taunt, a Jolly nature, and an EV spread of 4 Hp / 252 Def / 252 Spe (item Focus Sash). Maxing Speed out on Smeargle is important, as it allows you to outspeed other leads such as Metagross and non-scarf Breloom. Spore is pretty much a given on any Smeargle as it allows you to sleep opposing leads and proceed to set up risk-free entry hazards. The Focus Sash is used as the item because Smeargle is EXTREMELY frail, and Focus Sash allows it to survive many would-be OHKOes and then sleep the other lead with Spore.

    Now, if you decide use Smeargle, move Metagross to Skarmory's slot and use a Choice Bander set. Go for a spread of 252 Hp / 236 Atk / 12 Def / 8 Spe, an Adamant nature, and a set of Meteor Mash, Earthquake, Explosion, and ThunderPunch. Choice Band Metagross is a monster, especially the ridiculous power behind a Choice Band Explosion (capable of occasionally OHKOing 252 Hp / 252 Def Skarmory after Stealth Rock damage, the epitome of a physical wall). Meteor Mash is a good and powerful STAB move that really allows you to rip into opposing teams. ThunderPunch and Earthquake hit what Metagross's other two moves cannot, mainly Heatran and Gyarados. Oh, and if you use Smeargle, then you can drop Stealth Rock on Gliscor and use U-turn (helps for scouting the opposing team).

    I'm not sure that I like your current Tyranitar set. It doesn't do much for your team, and really only serves as a secondary status absorber and a secondary wall...in short, it's just like you Suicune, but with different typing. If the aim of using RestTalking TTar is to lure in threats, then I think that using BaitTar would really help out this team. Use a set of Crunch, Pursuit, SuperPower, and Flamethrower, a Hasty nature, and an EV spread of 252 Atk / 48 SpA / 208 Spe (item Expert Belt). This extremely tricky TTar set devised by Haunter allows you to fake using a Choice Band Tyranitar, lure in specific threats such as Scizor, and OHKO them with Tyranitar. SuperPower is another important move, as it allows you to OHKO Heatran While it may seem redundant to run two Dark moves on the set, it is actually quite benificial; Crunch allows you to hit anything switching in with hard STAB, and Pursuit lets you trap Pokemon that may be trying to escape, such as Choice Scarf Rotom-A.

    Hope I helped, good luck! ;)
  5. Epic Cherubi

    Epic Cherubi

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
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    239
    I replaced Skarmory with Scizor (like the one Polelover suggested), which worked great. Life Orb Starmie is a huge threat if it can out-predict me or simply runs Hydro Pump. But the same could be said for any team that doesn't run a Blissey or extremely defensive Lanturn.

    Tyranitar can take two Surfs after Stealth Rocks, or a Hydro Pump + Thunderbolt combo. My Starmie can take non-thunderbolt hits too. SCizor does ok if he's careful about switching in. Suicune can even deplete Hydro Pump PP pretty easily. Sandstorm and the fact that Starmie has trouble switching in helps a lot.

    I tried it, and its been working wonders. I'm using a slightly different EV spread (virtually the same thing, just less attack and more defense) and replaced Brick Break with Bug Bite. Its an awesome late game sweeper, since Zapdos tends to get Exploded on by Metagross and Rotom doesn't last against Tyranitar.

    Thank you for the rate! I tried the changes and had some.. issues. Smeargle blows as a lead. I rarely got more then one layer down, sometimes none against Lum leads. Metagross is the best lead I've ever used, literally beating everything except Heatran and Infernape.

    Choice Band Metagross is cool but doesn't do much for me. Rotom, Zapdos, Swampert and so on wall him or in Gyarados case set up on Metagross. Heatran and Magnezone eat his STAB hits like they are nothing. My lead Metagross is able to normally get a kill within the first few turns, and Explode later.

    The Tyranitar set is a lot of fun, but doesn't KO much I don't already. Blissey is PP stalled (if not outright killed from sand, burn and Paybacks) Heatran eventually dies to Payback (Gliscor can switch in on Earth Power in a pinch) and Scizor is easy to catch on the switch in. The set doesn't have the defenses I need to stop Rotom, Starmie and Latias. Its a really cool set, just not anywhere near bulky enough.

    I'll update the team with the changes I made already.
  6. MrIndigo

    MrIndigo

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
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    2,246
    Brick Break is used to take care of Magnezone; if you don't feel you need Brick Break for that, you might want to consider U-Turn over Bug Bite. This lets Scizor scout in the earlier part of the game, as well as bluffing the Choice Band while you hold Occa Berry.
  7. Snorlaxe

    Snorlaxe 2 kawaii 4 u
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    I'm surprised that you arent having more sucess with Smeargle; against slower leads, he can easily get up two layers of Spikes, more often than not three layers and Stealth Rock. Against stall teams, you are all but guarenteed to get up all layers and SR; maybe you havent been having success because of your certain playstyle? Well, anyway, thanks for considering my rate!
  8. polelover44

    polelover44

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    If I were you, I'd change Tar's spread/set to this:
    Tyranitar @ Leftovers
    Careful
    236 HP/72 Atk/8 Spd/192 SDef
    Brick Break/Earthquake
    Crunch
    Rest
    Sleep Talk

    This set is beast. Heatran never scores even a 4HKO on Tyranitar, allowing him to eat Earth Powers directed at Metagross and KO back. Celebi's Grass Knot 3HKOs, giving you time to destroy it with Crunch. It outspeeds 0 Speed Tar, and Pokémon aiming to outspeed 0 Speed Tar by 1 point. This isn't relevant, so you can take those EVs and put them in something else.
  9. locopoke

    locopoke indulges in unsavory behavior
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    This has potential to be a great team but there are definitely a few things you need to fix up.

    First of all you don't have any entry hazards other than stealth rock which is a problem, since this is a very defensive team. I suggest dropping Metagross completely. He's not of much use to this team and he doesn't even have SR. Use Tyranitar as your lead instead, with the following set:

    Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP/126 Atk/12 Spd/120 SDef
    Careful nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge
    - Rest
    - Pursuit

    I've used this lead before and I love it. It always either gets SR up or kills off a lead, preventing them from getting any entry hazards down. The EVs provided allow it to do at least 95% to Roserade all the time (with SS KOing at the end of the turn) and always survive Leaf Storm. If they decide to Sleep Powder then Lum Berry heals you. Azelf, one of the most common leads, can't touch this set at all and you can KO them in one turn with Stone Edge.

    Your Scizor is pretty gimmicky and doesn't fit well into a defensive team like this one. I suggest replacing Scizor with Forretress.

    Forretress @ Shed Shell
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP/252 SpD/6 Atk
    Careful nature
    - Payback
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Spikes

    Forretress is a reliable spinner who can also set down entry hazards with ease, the ideal Pokemon for this kind of team. Forretress will also be your initial switch-in for lead Metagross, as they can't harm you (EQ does about 30%) and you can get off a few layers of Spikes and then spin their SR away, giving you an early advantage in the match. Also, if you want you can use Leftovers instead of Shed Shell so that you last longer against certain mons, but with Mangezone everywhere lately I really wouldn't take that chance. Losing Forretress so early in the game hurts you a lot later on.

    Next, some nitpicks. Now that Tyranitar has SR, you can take that off of Gliscor's moveset and add Toxic. Taunt + Toxic Gliscor is the ultimate stall breaker and it's a very annoying pokemon for any team to deal with. Also while you're at it, replace Yache Berry with Leftovers, Yache Berry is only good on Baton Passing Gliscors.

    Next, Starmie really doesn't belong in this team. You could have used her as a spinner but now that you have Forretress there's just no need to keep her around. Replace her with defensive CM Latias, no question about it. Defensive CM Latias is so great on defensive teams like this, it can really help wear down any type of team, offensive or defensive.

    Latias @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    Timid nature
    EVs: 128 HP/128 SpA/252 Spe
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Calm Mind
    - Recover
    - Refresh / Reflect / HP Fire

    For the last slot I'd reccomend HP Fire to get the surprise kill on Scizors who ALWAYS switch into Latias. Refresh helps you more against stall, since Blissey can't simply Toxic you and then stall you out until you die, and Reflect would help against physical threats like Metagross and Jirachi. But since HP Fire is the only move that would allow you to hit steels, that's what I reccomend.

    edit: If you want to go with Refresh, then use the EV Spread 148 HP / 252 Spe / 108 SpA. The extra HP allows you to take more Seismic Toss' from Blissey so that you get an extra turn to Refresh and heal up.

    Now you have one last slot and I suggest putting in ScarfRachi. Great synergy and typing with CM Latias and it will help you against Gyarados and SD Lucario who currently give you a lot of trouble. Make sure you use Jolly with max speed and attack so that you tie with +1 base 100s.
  10. Airfoil

    Airfoil

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    Nov 30, 2009
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    920

    Smeargle does make a good lead, but he can be hard to use as one because of his stats. While his speed lets him do a number of things, alot of leads are also EVed in speed as well as them being faster on their own. It is a good idea, but it can still be hard to use. A faster Pokemon or a Pokemon with more defense would work better.


    Having more entry hazards would be a good idea. If this team is made to last in the sandstorm, then you might want a second Pokemon that can activate it. You don't need a Hippowdon or anything like that, but you have to be careful in case Groudon, Kyogre, or Abomasnow comes in and ruins your storm. If this team does not need sandstorm, then don't worry about anything I just said.
  11. Epic Cherubi

    Epic Cherubi

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    239
    Big Bite hits Suicune hard, which Brick Break will only do 15% max against Crocune (with an Adamant 80 Attack EV spread, far less with what I run). I have considered Brick Break to slap Heatran and Magnezone, but Suicune and hard targets like Bronzong or Gyarados are bigger threats.

    Smeargle is an ok lead, but he's all "hit or miss". Lum Berry leads butcher him. Taunt beats him. Simple switching beats him. Late game (or lol, second turn) Rapid Spinners make him useless. He doesn't even check anything so after the lead exchange I'm usually running off 5 pokemon. Against stall teams getting all layers is pointless since they will spin everything in one turn, not that any decent stall team would even let that happen in the first place.

    Thats what I used to run, but the Brick Break / Earthquake slot was so badly walled by anything not hit Super Effective by his moves. Flamethrower wasn't much better, but kept Scizor, Skarmory and Forretress from getting up my ass. He beat Heatran no matter what (especially with Gliscor and Suicune ready to take Earth Powers and OHKO) so not hitting

    Though I'm not sure where exactly, I know I've heard the name Locopoke before. Heard it MANY times before..

    I have to thank you for the greatest and most overall useful rate I have ever gotten on any pokemon site.

    Adamant with 252 HP / 4 Attack / 12 Speed / 240 Special Defense hits the EXACT same stats as your Careful spread, but has 4 points higher Special Defense. lol this will likely never matter, but it does gain 1.3% more durability against special hits while losing nothing in return.

    I love Metagross, he really is the perfect lead. Meta wins a lead stand off virtually all of the time but I guess you're right, after the initial lead volleys he just sits around and waits to explode (assuming he didn't already).

    After testing the lead TTar (and getting used to having to switch out of some leads) it has been doing much better then it did last time I used it (I ran that set a while ago, but hated losing to several leads). The Special Defense loss isn't a huge deal compared to all the stuff Pursuit lets me do.

    Not having Leftovers ruined any hope of surviving more then three moves, and I was fairly weak to lead Mamoswine as it was so I eventually tried running Leftovers and Relaxed with 252 HP / 208 Special Defense / 48 Defense. Lead Adamant Mamoswine Earthquake 4HKOs unless it rolls max damage all three times while Swampert Earthquake caps at 25%. 56 Special Attack Hydro Pump will almost always 3HKO, but will often miss at least once. I still retain 86% the special durability but gain 113% the physical defense. Your set takes hits overall slightly better, but Mamoswine violently slaughters me right now (I don't like suiciding Forretress to kill him without getting SOME hazards set up). I'll experiment with different EV spreads. Might even go back to max HP / max special defense.

    Also I'm running Payback / Earthquake / Toxic Spikes / Rapid Spin. The added move coverage lets me hit Magnezone so I don't ALWAYS need Shed Shell (Earthquake OHKOs Magnezone after Stealth Rocks about 33% of the time, always with residual damage). Payback hits Celebi and Rotom to help wear them down so Suicune can sweep. I'm running Relaxed so I'm slower then other Forretress, which lets me spin their layers away as they lay them (to assist with my own Leftovers healing)

    This works very well.

    I'm running a basic 252 HP / 252 Speed. With Reflect for the final move. HP Fire means Gengar can speed tie with Latias AND fry Forretress with its own HP Fire. Reflect deals with Scizor well enough anyway. Blissey isn't 2HKOed by +6 Dragon Pulse but Latias always beats it with Toxic Spikes so the 128 Special Attack EVs don't seem that important to me, as opposed to sponging Reflected Pursuits.

    I'm trying Iron Head / Fire Punch / Thunder Punch / Trick. Gyarados beats me too badly to try U-Turn over Thunderpunch..

    (Groudon and Kyogre are Ubers, and Abomasnow teams are ravaged once Tentacruel dies (Toxic Spikes)
  12. dachickens

    dachickens

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    Jan 19, 2009
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    1,001
    Just a minor nitpick:

    For Tyranitar, I suggest changing your item from Lum Berry to Chesto Berry. Chesto still cures Sleep Powder and Rest like Lum Berry. In addition, in a position where you get paralyzed, for instance, Lum cures you and leaves you with no item or health recovery. On the other hand, if you have Chesto, you can Rest off both the damage and the paralysis, which is much better imo.
  13. franky

    franky
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Hello, epic

    First I'd like to say that this rmt is very comprehensive and I actually read the entire thing. Some obvious changes need to be made. On a defensive team like this, Spikes is really important to rack up damage. Seriously, its one of the best moves in the game. Replace Earthquake for Spikes and Leftovers for Shed Shell. You say you can OHKO Magnezone back but it will usually pack Hidden Power Fire to dispose you. Even if it doesn't dispose you and you manage to survive through percentages, your left with such a small HP and you can no longer set up those crucial Toxic Spikes for you. Shed Shell really is the best item on Foretress. Spikes over Earthquake is good, I recommend trying it out.

    From what I see, this team values entry hazards dearly. You need spin block badly. Suicune isn't doing much for your team, I know it acts as a sweeper lategame but spin blocking is far more important at the moment. Nothing on your team can be change, except the weakest link which is Suicune. Go for a Rest Talk Rotom with 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD and the movesets Thunderbolt / WoW / Rest / Sleep Talk with a Bold nature. This allows Rotom to stay alive the entire match blocking Rapid Spin. Thunderbolt is preffered so you can actually hit Starmie and Tentacruel. Will-O-Wisp deals with Pursuit users.

    On Jirachi, I'd like you to try out U-turn over Trick. Jirachi needs its Choice Scarf, and you don't want to give it away. Basically, with Choice Scarf gone many Dragon Dancers will run rampant on this team and Jirachi slows down most of them. Trick is not good. U-turn however, provides a cool way of racking up entry hazards damage. By using U-turn and bringing in your check for their check, it will cause them to switch once more and this ultimately racks up entry hazard damage. U-turn ensures you don't get stuck in one move.

    On Gligar, why exactly did you give up at 236? I'd hit 220 Speed because outpacing Gligar is not a big deal. If it really annoys you then hit 236 Spe and pour 20 into Attack. There is no need to max out Speed.

    As for other options, I'd actually look for Wish over Recover for testing. Latias can act as an ultimate support for your team by providing Reflect and Wish. Wish not only heals himself, it also heals Jirachi who could possibly be injured lategame. It also heals Tyranitar, Foretress, and Rotom - all three lack a reliable recovery move. Just try that out, overall gl.
  14. Epic Cherubi

    Epic Cherubi

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    239
    Lum Berry also lets me take Will-O-Wisps and negate random Freezes. Its come in handy more then it is a hassle against random Toxic Spikers, or anything like that.

    I tried Spikes and Shed Shell but it doesn't work! Its impossible to drop all 5 layers with NO RECOVERY while still trying to take random hits, even with Wish support (I tested Wish Latias). Earthquake isn't just for Magnezone, it also hits Heatran, Infernape, Lucario and Tentacruel. Running Leftovers and Toxic Spikes has given me a much easier time laying Toxic Spikes, and still outwitting Rapid Spinners like Starmie and Tentacruel while wiping out Ghost spin blockers with Payback and Tyranitar's Pursuit.

    I'm not running a stall team.. I'd rather it be more of the offensive line then defensive.

    Forretress handles the Rapid Spinners fine, and they don't have many times they can Rapid Spin without dying in the process. My ONLY goal of layers is to set up Toxic Spikes, so I can usually lay one layer to scout for a spinner (and hit offensive teams harder) and come back in later to finish the job. Magnezone has managed to kill Forretress a few times, but having Leftovers has saved my life far more often.

    As for replacing Suicune that could possibly work. Maybe turn Tyranitar into Cursetar and replace Suicune with.. Magnezone or something. Cursetar has almost the exact opposite enemies that Suicune has, so I would need to switch the team around.

    I would like to run U-turn, but Trick has been very, VERY helpful. Its also my only defense against Suicune and is good to wreck havok on the enemy team. LO Starmie isn't a threat when scarfed, Skarmory loses one on one when I have Leftovers attached, Scarfing Gyarados eliminates him as a threat, instead of having to pray he doesn't Earthquake Jirachi or Waterfall Gliscor.

    Do you think you are the only person to ever run "one more point" then the standard? No, many others also run more speed then that and I was tired of the speed game. I'm giving up negligible defense for a guarentee that I at least speed tie with other Gliscor as well as giving me some defense against SubRoost Zapdos (who can 6-0 me) and Calm Mind Jirachi (another reason to use Trick, CM Jirachi turns from a threat to setup bait). 252 Speed has worked fantastically. I'm also pretty badly beaten by a well played Gliscor, so I need all the help I can get.

    I tried a defensive Wish Latias, but I had to give up another move for Protect (Latias dies FAST without it). I didn't benefit from Wish as much as I did from Latias being hard to kill. I'm looking for ways to make the team more offensive, so it can actively kill Suicune's counters.

    Thank you for the rate.

    TTar --> Curse tar? And something else over Suicune? Or keep Suicune..



    Updated: Tyranitar has been a terrible lead. It fails against nearly every single common lead in OU. Azelf survives Pursuit to lay rocks and Explode, Metagross outright kills me with no threat to itself, Jirachi and Aerodactyl do heavy damage if not lethal. Swampert and Infernape fuck me up. Roserade loses, but only 80% of the time and Leaf Storm rips a huge chunk of life out of TTar. Hippowdon wipes me out. I can take out Smeargle if Stone Edge dosn't miss. Ninjask passes a +2 Swords Dance and speed to some random thing since not ALL my Stone Edges will hit its Subs. Crobat will be forced to U-turn out, but Gliscor and other Tyranitar can KO me (or do enough to not be worth leading). Heatran and Bronzong wall and slay me, even if they don't know it. Abomasnow is forced out, but is slower and thus sometimes able to get Snow priority over my Sandstorm. Forretress beats me, Ambipom either U-turns or Brick Breaks while Mamoswine and Machamp each KO me. I know the idea is "switch to something else" if the lead can't handle it, but this happened SO OFTEN I was surprised when TTar actually did it right.

    So of the top 20 leads, Tyranitar has a slight chance against maybe a quarter of them. I'm keeping the set (might tweak the EVs a bit) and switched Forretress to the lead slot. He can commonly drop a single layer of Toxic Spikes early on and hides the threat of Tyranitar's Pursuit. Tyranitar can bring down Azelf well enough.

    I might change TTar's set around a little, maybe replace Stone Edge with something less horrible.

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