1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

OU Omastar

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by Epikhairz, Dec 16, 2013.

  1. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    298
    My XY Preview
    I'm mostly taking from my preview so it's not plagiarism guys. I don't think much needs to be changed from it, so yeah :x

    [​IMG]

    Skeleton (open)


    Overview
    ########

    • Omastar possesses a decent base 115 Special Attack stat.
    • It has access to one of the best boosting moves in the game, Shell Smash.
    • It possesses an excellent base 125 Defense stat.
    • It has good typing in conjunction with Weak Armor.
    • Its access to Swift Swim makes it a potent threat in the rain.
    • Rock typing allows it to resist the Normal and Flying type attacks that Gorebyss, a similar Shell Smash user, does not, while also giving it extra resistance to Fire.
    • It is slow; it can be outsped by common Choice Scarf users even at +2 Speed.
    • It has a massive weakness to Grass, as well as possessing common weaknesses such as Fighting, Ground, and Electric
    • Its movepool is extremely small, though it gets good coverage with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Surf, as well as Shell Smash as stated before
    • It is weak to priority moves such as Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave.
    • Nerfed by lack of permarain/sand to boost SpA and SpD respectively
    • Omastar's typing helps it check on of the biggest threats in Talonflame and leave it at that.
    Shell Smash
    ########
    name: Shell Smash
    move 1: Shell Smash
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass
    ability: Swift Swim / Weak Armor
    item: White Herb / Lum Berry
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Moves
    ========
    • Access to godly boosting move Shell Smash turns Omastar into a dangerous boosting sweeper
    • Surf is more reliable than Hydro Pump, but it loses out on some KOs on tanks such as Conkeldurr at max HP
    • Ice Beam is a great coverage move to hit all the Dragon-types roaming around
    • Though Hidden Power got nerfed, Hidden Power Grass is still a vital coverage move to have if it wishes to hit opposing Water-types


    Set Details
    ========

    • Timid allows it to outpace neutral base 100 Speed Scarfers, though Modest is preferred for extra power
    • White Herb allows it to keep its defenses, which is the ideal item for a mid- or late-game sweep, and also because Omastar is slow
    • Lum Berry prevents it from being paralyzed or otherwise statused, allowing it to continue its sweep and not be crippled

    Usage Tips
    ========
    • If using Weak Armor, use Omastar's great defense to its advantage to switch in on a multitude of physical Fire-type moves.
    • Shell Smash Omastar can be a serious threat if used right, but it usually only has one shot to pull off a sweep so make sure that checks and counters are either eliminated or seriously weakened before bringing it in
    • Make sure specially defensive Pokemon like Blissey or Snorlax are seriously weakened, while Choice Scarf users faster than Omastar or priority users that could be a threat should be eliminated altogether unless they are weak enough to die on the switch to hazards or they could easily come in and ruin your day
    • Bring Omastar in on a Fire-, Flying-, or Rock-type such as Talonflame when checks and counters are gone or severely weakened and profit
    • Though it is quite a gambit, if you bring in Omastar a little early, instead of setting up, you could try to score a hit on a check or counter on the switch and switch out to sweep later
    Team Options
    ========
    • A Fire-type teammate such as Heatran or Charizard is extremely useful for getting rid of Ferrothorn and/or Mega Venusaur, both of whom completely counters Omastar.
    • A hazard setter is useful for any sweeper to turn quite a few 2HKOs into OHKOs - Omastar is no exception
    • If using Swift Swim, be sure to have Politoed or a Rain Dance user on the team to take advantage of it
    • Omastar has trouble with many special walls, so strong physical attackers like Talonflame can be used to get rid of them. Some of the top-tier special walls, such as Chansey, Blissey, and Tyranitar, are weak to Fighting, so having one like Conkeldurr or Breloom is also useful.

    Other Options
    ########
    • It has access to all forms of entry hazards and can be both a suicide lead or a defensive spiker, though it's usually outclassed by other hazard setters such as Forretress and Skarmory

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    • Choice Scarf users (Garchomp, Lati@s, etc)
    • Lucario (Vacuum Wave)
    • Special walls (Chansey, Blissey, Assault Vest Snorlax and/or Goodra)
    • Ferrothorn
    • Mega Venusaur
    • Gyarados (especially if it has Earthquake)
    • Mach Punch users (Technician Breloom and Conkeldurr)
    • Rotom-W

    Overview
    ########

    Omastar has one thing that allows it to separate itself from other potent rain sweepers: its access to Shell Smash, one of the best setup moves in the game. If you take into account its decent base 115 Special Attack, Omastar is able to function as an extremely deadly sweeper that can tear teams apart even without weather support. It also has a great base 125 Defense and a great defensive typing. Omastar differs slightly from Gorebyss, another Shell Smash user, due to its Rock typing, allowing it to resist Normal- and Flying-type attacks, particularly those of Talonflame, a big threat in the current metagame.

    Though Omastar can be extremely deadly, it does have many noticeable flaws that prevent it from being used more often. The most obvious flaw is that Omastar is extremely slow, and can be outsped by common Choice Scarf users even at +2 Speed. Omastar also has a massive x4 weakness to Grass, as well as other common weaknesses to types such as Fighting, Ground, and Electric. Its movepool is also extremely limited, though it still gets very good coverage with Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. It is also weak to the common priority moves Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave. Finally, the lack of permanent rain and sand hampered Omastar's utility in OU as it really loves the power or defense boosts either weather provides.

    Shell Smash
    ########
    name: Shell Smash
    move 1: Shell Smash
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass
    ability: Swift Swim
    item: White Herb / Life Orb
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Modest / Timid

    Moves
    ========

    Shell Smash is the most important move on what is Omastar's only viable set, as it allows Omastar to become an immediate threat in just one turn. Surf is Omastar's most reliable STAB attack, but it will lose out on KOs that Hydro Pump can net on sturdy tanks such as Mega Aggron. Ice Beam is a great coverage move to hit not only the Grass-types that resist Omastar's STAB but also to seriously damage or KO the many Dragon-types roaming around the tier, such as Dragonite and Garchomp. Finally, Hidden Power Grass is an essential move to have if Omastar wishes to hit opposing Water-types.

    Set Details
    ========

    While a Timid nature allows Omastar to outspeed neutral base 100 Speed Choice Scarf users, a Modest nature is preferred for the extra power. As for item choice, a White Herb allows Omastar to keep its defenses after one turn of setup, which is ideal for a mid- to late-game sweep, as Omastar is still rather slow. However, a Life Orb will noticeably boost Omastar's power and actually allow it to do some damage before setting up. The power received from a Life Orb is important for Omastar to stick out in a metagame filled with hard hitters. Finally, a Lum Berry is worth considering as it will prevent Omastar from being paralyzed or crippled by other status; this is useful for preventing a Thunder Wave from Thundurus or Blissey stopping your sweep cold.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Shell Smash Omastar can be a serious threat if used right, but it usually has only one shot at pulling off a successful sweep, so make sure that its checks and counters are either eliminated or seriously weakened before bringing it in. These threats include naturally fast Pokemon, Choice Scarf users, and special walls. One of the most common threats in the metagame, Talonflame, is incredibly easy to set up on, as Omastar 4x resists its Flare Blitz. However, keep in mind that Choice Band Talonflame can 2HKO Omastar with a priority Brave Bird. Finally, if Omastar is brought in a little early, it can try to use an attack instead of setting up to damage a check on the switch and then immediately switch out, but this is quite a risky tactic.

    Team Options
    ========

    A Fire-type teammate such as Heatran or Charizard is extremely useful for getting rid of Ferrothorn, which completely counters Omastar, though any teammate with a Fire-type move will also suffice. An entry hazard setter is useful for any sweeper to turn quite a few 2HKOs into OHKOs, and Omastar is no exception. Omastar has lots of trouble with special walls, so having a strong physical attacker like Talonflame is useful for getting rid of them. Talonflame is also able to get rid of Mega Venusaur, which is arguably Omastar's best and most common counter, with Brave Bird. Many top-tier special walls, such as Blissey, Chansey, and Tyranitar, are weak to Fighting-type moves, so having a Fighting-type in your team, such as Conkeldurr or Breloom will greatly help Omastar pull off a successful sweep. Finally, if using Swift Swim, be sure to have Politoed or a Rain Dance user to take advantage of it, as there are lots of Pokemon that Omastar can't outspeed without it.

    Other Options
    ########

    Unfortunately, Omastar doesn't have many other options that it can fall back on. It does have access to all forms of entry hazards, so you could use it as a defensive or suicide Spiker, though it is generally outclassed by those with more bulk or more Speed, such as Forretress and Skarmory.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Choice Scarf Users**: Omastar is quite slow, so Choice Scarf users such as Garchomp can outspeed it even when it's at +2 Speed and KO it with a powerful attack.

    **Special Walls**: Special walls such as Chansey and Blissey, as well as tanks such as Assault Vest Goodra or Snorlax, can take Omastar's hits with relative ease and can either cripple or outright KO it.

    **Priority Users**: Omastar is weak to a few common priority attacks; Mach Punch from Conkeldurr or Technician Breloom will easily take it out.

    **Grass-types**: Although Omastar has Ice Beam to handle most Grass-types, there are a few that it just can't deal with. Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn both take neutral damage against Ice-type attacks thanks to Thick Fat and Steel typing, respectively. Both Pokemon also have 4x super effective STAB Grass-type moves to take Omastar down with ease.

    **Water-types**: Due to the nerf on Hidden Power this generation, Omastar has a much harder time dealing with opposing Water-types. Gyarados takes neutral damage Grass-type attacks, and its bulky variants essentially counter Omastar, especially if it has Earthquake. Rotom-W is also a bulky Water-type that can take advantage of its STAB Electric-type moves to take down Omastar.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2014
  2. Namso

    Namso
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,303
    You need to elaborate on the usage tips. When used correctly, SS Omastar can be an absolute menace, so it's important the reader gets it right. Like, when should I bring Omastar in to sweep? What should I bring it in against? When do I Shell Smash?
  3. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    298
  4. Jukain

    Jukain fuck macle
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,950
    Also, in the Overview: Omastar may have a small movepool, but with gems like Shell Smash, Hydro Pump, and Ice Beam, I wouldn't say it's shallow by any means.
  5. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    298
    ok reworded thanks guys keep the comments flowing :D
  6. Cshadow

    Cshadow

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    866
    This skeleton looks good. That is quite the lengthy overview, haha. I do have a few questions as well.

    Immediately I have noticed that while you have mentioned Omastar's potential use as a utility mon - given that it has access to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, but not Stealth Rock - yet, there is no support set capitalizing on these moves (as, I would imagine, that an offensive Spiker is outlcassed by Cloyster). Is Omastar really such a good Spikes user that it deserves a mention in the overview, but no set in the analysis? Seems a little strange, I think. I might be over-thinking it, though.

    You also mention some KO's that Omastar fails to nab when using Surf over Hydro Pump on the Shell Smash set, but make no mention of which Pokemon, exactly, he fails to KO as a result. While I have no doubt that he does, in fact, fail to KO certain Pokemon, it is important that the reader knows which Pokemon in particular that he fails to kill, as this will make them more informed when choosing between the two moves.

    I also think that some time should be taken to tell the reader just why they should be using Omastar over Gorebyss, who's pure Water-typing is arguably better (as she isn't weak to Mach Punch / Vaccum Wave and resists Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet), has similar defenses considering Omastar's dual typing (which makes him weak to / take neutral damage from considerably more attacks), has basically the same Special Attack stat (only a 1 point difference), and can also Baton Pass the boosts. If Omastar makes a better Shell Smash sweeper because he has 3 more base points in Speed, that is definitely a significant boon to Omastar, as that means he can outrun more threats after a Shell Smash (scarfed or otherwise), and should definitely be mentioned somewhere.

    Other than that, though, it looks good!
  7. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    298
    lol ty i took most of it from pros and cons in the preview

    I thought I removed that from the overview. Oh well I did now but its still in OO.

    The way I see it, Omastar's typing gives it many weaknesses, but also many resistances which Omastar can play to its advantage (Rock and Flying being the main examples here, as well as x4 resistance to Fire). At least that's always been the reason I used it :x

    Thanks :D
  8. Cshadow

    Cshadow

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    866
    Awesome.

    He doesn't resist Rock, but for a moment I totally forgot that Talonflame was a Pokemon. I think it might be a good idea to mention which Pokemon Omastar has an easier time dealing with / setting up on thanks to the Normal / Fire resistances granted by his Rock-typing, specifically Talonflame.

    I think the comparison to Gorebyss is inevitable (though I may be wrong on this) - it's important to be specific about what his Rock-typing does for him, I think.

    No problem.
  9. Unowninator

    Unowninator

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,260
    Hydro Pump's accuracy is still 80. I think you're thinking of Meteor Mash.
  10. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    298
    OK I'll be sure to describe Omastar's type advantages in more detail

    And I thought Hydro Pump's original accuracy was 70 :x

    EDIT: Changes made
    Cshadow likes this.
  11. Unowninator

    Unowninator

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,260
    If it makes you feel better, I use to think its accuracy was 85 until sometime during gen 5.
  12. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,153
    In the overview, you should mention that it got slightly nerfed via the removal permanent rain / sun (Omaster appreciated its boosts to SpA & SpD respectively) but it also got inadvertently buffed by the sheer omnipotence of Talonflame. Talonflame affords an easy opportunity to set up, which is something it lacked in the previous generation. (Make sure you stress how easy it is to set up on Talonflame).
    Don't forget to remove "and Rock-type moves."
    You should probably specify that Timid only lets you outspeed neutral base 100 Speed Scarfers. Also, Mega Alakazam isn't a benchmark so i'd probably cut the sentence short.

    And don't you worry about plagiarism. In fact, feel free to use most of the what you've written in your preview in the final analysis.
  13. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    298
    k done thanks
  14. Unowninator

    Unowninator

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,260
    Isn't the loss or permanent sun a good thing?
  15. Cshadow

    Cshadow

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    866
    He meant sand, hence mentioning a boost to SpD.
  16. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    298
    its been 48 hours so *bump*
  17. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    298
    it's been 10 days since above bump gonna bump again
  18. Namso

    Namso
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,303
    Overview

    "It has a massive weakness to Grass."

    I'd like you to add that it has common weaknesses to Fighting, Ground, and Electric.

    "Nerfed by lack of permarain/sun to boost SpA and SpD respectively but the new kid Talonflame is so common and easy to set up on that's it's a reason to use Omastar in its own right."

    I think you mean permanent sand, not sun? Also, I wouldn't really mention Talonflame specifically as a reason to use Omastar. I mean, yes, it checks it rather well, but most Talonflame are Choice Band and enjoy throwing out U-turns, making checking it a difficult matter. If you want, mention in point 4 that Omastar's typing helps it check on of the biggest threats in Talonflame and leave it at that.

    Moves

    "Hydro Pump is the STAB move of choice, but if you're really paranoid about those misses, it can use Surf, but it got nerfed to 90BP, which will lose out on some vital KO's"

    This seems as though Hydro Pump didn't get nerfed. Just omit that part and just say that Surf is more reliable but loses out on some KO's. I would also like to know some of these missed KO's.

    Team Options

    "A Fire-type teammate such as Talonflame or Charizard is extremely useful for getting rid of Ferrothorn, who completely counters Omastar."

    Talonflame Flare Blitzing Ferrothorn is basically suicide. You can mention Heatran instead. Also, I'd mention Mega Venusaur as someone who complete counters Omastar, and so Heatran/Charizard can deal with it to an extent.

    You never mentioned anything about special walls, though. What are some good Pokemon to look into to weaken them or outright dispose of them?

    Checks & Counters

    What are some Choice Scarf users? Be specific.

    Mention Assault Vest Snorlax and Goodra with Chansey and Blissey.

    Need Mach Punch Conkeldurr mentioned along with Breloom.

    You can certainly mention Abomasnow, cancelling rain for hail and resisting Omastar's Surf/HP Grass.

    QC APPROVED 1/3
  19. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,153
  20. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    298
    ok changes have been made thanks for checks!

    will write up soon
  21. SomePumpkinPie

    SomePumpkinPie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    39
    Not QC but I think it's worth specifically mentioning Scarf Genesect as a check/counter. One of the main disadvantages of using Omastar as a Swift Swim sweeper compared to Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo is that he's the only one of the four outsped and checked by ScarfGene, the others can just plow straight through him.
  22. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    298
    OK this is ready for its final QC check.

    For QC who are wondering, Breloom is coming along and will hopefully be up in a couple of days.
  23. CyclicCompound

    CyclicCompound ,,,@ ::
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    779
    Just minor nitpicking, but:

    Sand raises Special Defense, not Special Attack.
  24. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    298
    SpA and Speed were both referring to Rain (Hydro Pump BP and Swift Swim respectively) but I forgot to put an SpD mention so I'll put that it right now thanks :D
  25. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,626
    Hi. Please change the following:
    Cut the history. The overview is supposed to explain what Omastar can do. Also, mention what Omastar has over similar Shell Smash users, especially Cloyster.

    Also please don't use "godly" lol

    • Just say that Shell Smash is the main move on the set, and allows Omastar to become threatening after one turn. You can explain typing details in "Usage Tips."
    • Assault Vest Conkeldurr survives both Hydro Pump and Surf regardless at reasonable health, so you might want to find a better borderline example.
    • Delete "finally, even though Hidden Power got nerfed"
    You should also mention/warn that most of the time band talonflame is 2hkoing Weak Armor Omastar with Brave Bird after a defense drop, which isn't ideal with White Herb.

    You shouldn't necessarily limit this to "Fire-type teammates." Teammates with Fire-type attacks would also suffice. Additionally, Fire-type attacks don't exactly apply greatly to Mega Venusaur due to Thick Fat, so mention another way around it.

    That's all for now.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)