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On Snover's Tier Placement PART TWO

Discussion in 'The Policy Review' started by kokoloko, Dec 3, 2012.

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  1. kokoloko

    kokoloko yes, this is dog.
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    Hi.

    As you may already know, we unbanned Snow Warning from UU a few days back. Here's the situation:

    1. Hail was in NU when UU first banned it.
    2. Hail is pretty bad in UU at the moment because it lost almost everything it had going for it since we banned it.
    3. NU (well, Zeb) doesn't want it because they believe it'll be broken due to the tier having aqcuired all the Hail-"abusing" Pokemon over the past few months.
    4. RU (Oglemi) doesn't want it either, but I don't know why since like half the RU playerbase gets a boner at the very mention of Snow Warning...

    Now, the problem is that if we list Snover as UU, this will make people use it more than it should be used (if anyone disagrees, take a look at Ambipom's usage in UU, Electivire's usage in DPP OU, etc). This, I fear, could lead to it never dropping into the tier it should really be in.

    My proposed solution is to drop it into RU (where I theorize it would end up if people were smart and didn't use Pokemon in UU just because they are listed as such). This evades the problem of lagging the potential (and probable, imo) ascension of the Hail-abusing Pokemon from NU into RU, and to be quite frank makes the most sense from a purely practical point of view.

    However, what I think is the "correct" thing to do here is to drop it into NU tbh. That's where it was when we first banned it, and if it proves to be too strong for the tier, then they can ban it. Same for RU. And I'm sure a few of the other NU mods wouldn't mind it (specifically Django, since he's the one I talk to the most).

    So... what do?
  2. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
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    Oglemi asked me for my opinion on the whole situation a couple days ago so I'll just share it here. I think this is the right way to go about it. It wasn't broken in NU when it was banned in UU. Now, granted, I know full well the metagame has drastically changed since that point. However I always feel like before jumping to conclusions, we should give things a 2 week chance or so.

    Back in the day, people were theorymonning all over Gorebyss and calling for a quickban. Well, we let the metagame settle a bit and it was unanimously voted not broken. On the other hand, Jynx stewed a long time before it was finally banned.

    My point is that quick bans are a bad choice because theorymon only gets you so far: people need to actually play the metagame to form an informed opinion on it. Drop it into NU, which is the lowest tier it was previously allowed. Go from there. If RU decides in a couple weeks that it's broken, well then that's their choice and NU has to deal with it anyway. If NU decides its broken, well then what did we lose, a few weeks? It's better to make the right decision than to make the quick one.

    My original suggestion to Oglemi was to wait until the RU suspect test was done then drop hail into both RU and NU and have it be auto-suspected in both tiers, but that's a story for the other thread.
  3. yee

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    We're being more honest with overviews now so that should help mitigate the Electivire syndrome of people using something because it's listed in a tier. I would like to see widespread support of a theoryban from the NU and / or RU communities if we're going to do so, I personally trust their collective judgement enough to call a ban justified with a supermajority. Of course we'll need more opinions than my own on how much we trust the tiering leaders and the communities but I'm fairly sure we will all agree the right route is to drop it in the lowest tier it's not theorybanned from and not say "it hits almost all types super effectively with it's Expert Belt set, a huge plus" in its overview.
  4. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
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    This is something that I've put an extreme amount of thought into lately (more than what is probably healthy), because it is of the upmost importance for how we determine to deal with cases like this in the future.

    What I've come up with is in essence a two-clause approach on how we will deal with unbannings now and in the future.

    Clause 1 - Battle Conditions Clause

    When a Pokemon, ability, item, move combination, and any other combination (or, God forbid, move) is banned from an upper tier, it is removed from all lower tiers. In the case of the latter non-Pokemon options, when one of those conditions is banned from an upper tier, the conditions are also removed from the lower tier (for example: Snow Warning being banned from UU and removed from RU/NU, despite the condition being available in RU and NU).

    When the latter conditions are unbanned from the upper tier that banned them, they will be immediately be available for use in all tiers they were previously available (for example: Snow Warning).

    OK this is where it gets a bit confusing:

    Should a condition, such as Sand Stream, be banned from an upper tier, the Pokemon associated with the condition is consequently available in lower tiers due to usage stats (but not the condition that was banned). However, should the condition be unbanned from an upper tier (Sand Stream), it will not be allowed in the tiers that it was previously not available in. If the conditions are made available through the next tiering shift (should Hippopotas not reach the UU threshold), they will be made available at the next lowest tier (Hippopotas would follow the normative fall into RU). During the time between the unbanning and the tiering shift, the Pokemon (Hippopotas) will be placed in Limbo, and not allowed for play in RU and NU, as the Pokemon (Hippopotas) was not previously available for play in RU and NU. The reasoning for this is that the condition that has been unbanned is now technically available in all tiers at the time of the unbanning, as the next lowest tier has not banned it yet, and because the Pokemon that creates the condition is available through usage stats. However, the conditions were not previously available.

    In effect, where the conditions were available when they were banned is where they are placed when they are unbanned (as other examples: Gothitelle will be placed back into NU if/when it is unbanned from UU as that is where it was previously available; Vulpix will be placed into Limbo and Drought made only available to UU when/if Drought is unbanned from UU).

    Clause 2 - Suspect Testing Clause

    If the nature of the current suspect test taking place in a particular tier is such that the metagame must be frozen from outside conditions, the above Battle Conditions Clause can be chosen to not be applied. For example: the staggered ladder currently being implemented by RU to compare two different metagames. This clause can also be applied to major releases of Dream World abilities, Nintendo giveaways, and the like.

    However, this clause is only to be used in extreme, extenuating circumstances (and not just normative suspect tests). In the case of RU, the extended time needed to be provided to have the staggered ladder system can effectively create a suspect test lasting far longer than what is necessary. Should a major outside influencer, such as the reintroduction of Snow Warning, be such that it would necessitate the redo of the suspect test and further extend the time of a possibly broken metagame, the suspect test can be effectively frozen in time to ensure the completion of the suspect test. Immediately after the suspect test is done, Clause 1 will take effect.




    Let me make this clear, in nearly any other condition, place, and time we would follow Clause 1 in RU and NU with the recent unbanning of Snow Warning. However, because of the nature of the current suspect test, we need to have the metagame frozen in order to effectively ensure the proper tiering of the suspects in question, lest we further extend a possibly broken metagame.


    I realize that these clauses are not airtight and foolproof. However, nothing that we could come up with was (in fact every option is horribly flawed in some way), but this is what I believe is best for now and the future.
  5. Pocket

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    Thank you for the well-organized suggestion, Oglemi! I certainly support Battle Conditions clause - props for outlining such a well thought-out solution!

    However, I'm a bit iffy on the Suspect Test clause. The new addition to the tier may very well make the current suspects a non-suspect when re-introduced to the meta. In example of Hail, BlizzardSpam would suck for Nidoqueen, as well as Hail's nerf on Cresselia's Moonlight. The broken metagame, if indeed broken, may be balanced once more with the new playstyle included.
  6. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
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    There is also the possibility of both Pokemon being just as (possibly) broken as before as well; both Pokemon are fantastic on hail teams themselves as support Pokemon (and Nidoqueen offensive). Nidoqueen and Cresselia both resist Fighting, and Nidoqueen Rock, two attacking types that most hail teams dread. Cresselia can also provide dual screen and paralysis support just as before, just without the as-effective healing provided by Moonlight. Nidoqueen will also then get a perfectively-accurate Sheer Force-boosted Blizzard.

    Like I said, nothing is perfect and arguments can be made for both sides. What is certain though is that reintroducing hail would necessitate the restart of the current suspect test. If a future council decides to at some point re-test either Pokemon with Snow Warning available (should they be banned in the current suspect test) they will be allowed to do so.
  7. kokoloko

    kokoloko yes, this is dog.
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    So where would Snover go in the meantime should we choose to follow clause #2? Limbo?

    I don't agree with these clauses by the way; I don't understand why you would rather redo the entire suspect test later and use up x amount of time when you could just restart it now and only use up x minus however long the test has been going on. Seems really counter-productive. And honestly, we both know everyone is going to want to redo the suspect test if/when hail is reintroduced into the metagame (not to mention almost everyone I have spoken to in #ru wants hail in the tier).
  8. Antar

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    Snover should go back up to UU, where it was before hail was banned.

    Technically it should have been allowed to make its way down to PU naturally, over the course of three update cycles, but that really seemed silly.
  9. Ginku

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    I thought the entire point of this was that snover was NU before hail was banned?

    That said I also agree with koko; snover should go back where it was originally banned from and if hail would necessitate a restart of the current suspect test, it seems like there would be a retest either way which just takes up more time.
  10. Antar

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    Sorry, I was misremembering how this happened.

    Before the ban on Snow Warning, Snover was BL, since Hail has been banned in UU since time immemorial.

    So now that the ban on Snow Warning has been lifted, there are a few places that Snover can be placed:

    • Leave him in PU. He probably won't stay there for too long.
    • Move him to BL2 if the RU council wants to quickban
    • Move him to BL3 if the NU council wants to quickban but the RU council does not

    Note that "RU" is not an option. UU, RU, NU and PU are usage-based tiers. You can't just randomly decide that a Pokemon is RU based on no usage information, nor on how well you *think* it'll do.

    That's what the Borderlines are for.

    Precedent: many people assumed Imposter Ditto would be a potent enough threat to be viable in OU, but no one was sure where it would end up, so it was allowed to stay PU (from where it has failed to rise so far).

    So what I'm saying is leave Snover where he is or quickban him to a BL. Calling him "RU" because that's where you think he'll end up just makes a mockery of the idea that our tiers are at all based on usage.

    Edit: Okay, so the last time Snover was legal in the lower tiers (Nov. 2011), it was pulling RU-level usage, but only because Abomasnow was in UU. And interestingly, the rise of Snover Hail in RU was an extremely recent phenomenon, as in Oct. 2011, it was pulling NU-level usage. My point is, there's no real way to know where Snover will end up, especially if Abomasnow reenters UU, as it is predicted to do.
  11. Django

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    The way I see it is similar to a Pokemon getting a DW ability released (think Regenerator Amoonguss etc). When that happens we just move on as normal, and if the pokemon is broken after getting the ability then we ban it. It seems to me we should do the same here.

    Basically I agree with koko (ugh). Allowing it in NU is the "right" thing to do. Whether RU wants to see out the rest of the suspect test without Hail is up to them, but if they do decide to hold back on introducing Snow Warning, would it also be held back from NU or not?
  12. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
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    It wouldn't be later, the test would be restarted immediately if we were going to reintroduce Snow Warning right now; however, that's still another extended 2 weeks, which then extends right through into the tier shifts.

    What the people want that I've talked to is to finish out this suspect test and then allow hail into the tier, hence why I proposed what I did.

    Sorry that I didn't explain this more clearly in my post.

    Because RU would not be banning Snow Warning, but freezing the metagame, hail would then be allowed in NU for the reasons I outlined in the Battle Conditions Clause. Snover would be labeled as NU.
  13. zdrup15

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    I'm sorry if I'm out of my league but why are you making RU go through even more suspect tests? I mean, I won't even go into why Cresselia was unbanned to be suspected immediatly again, but you're basically saying that RU is looking to at least one more month of suspect testing (and this is assuming hail's testing would be the fastest ever).

    This would usually be ok but we have one of the two major competitions RU is involved in (I'd argue it means more than GS because of it's tradition but whatever) and what you're saying is that, not only RU players can't playtest before the competition (gl battling other players, if they're good enough to test, pray they don't get picked) but they also have to change teams mid-SPL. And we're not talking about minor changes, Nidoqueen, Cresselia, and Snover are all massive.

    Why not dealing with it immediatly, have three weeks of suspect testing, and give everyone a week to playtest so that everyone can prepare to be on SPL's level?

    (Feel free to delete it if I shouldn't be posting)
  14. Pocket

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    I agree with zdrup15 and kokoloko - why not immediately start a new suspect round where Snover, Nidoqueen, and Cresselia are all suspects? This will save time. If Cresselia and / or Nidoqueen prove to still be OP in this new meta, then we ban the suspect(s). If Hail ends up being the broken factor, then I guess we can restart or resume Rocket Man. Testing Hail and deciding its fate is far more imperative than deciding on the 2 suspects that we deemed not broken just a few weeks ago.
  15. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
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    OK

    After talking it over some more I've decided to scrap the second Suspect Test clause. RU will be allowing hail and starting a brand new suspect test.

    The Battle Conditions Clause will still be followed now and from here on out, and hail will be allowed in both RU and NU.

    EDIT: Snover is NU (as it was based on usage anyway) and not Limbo.
  16. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken neca eos omnes, deus suos agnoscet
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    just for clarification since some people are making assumptions about where i stand with this: i completely agree with oglemi's proposed solution and i believe it's the best option that we have available currently. i didn't think i needed to post but at least five people have asked me about it so yea, there's that.
  17. kokoloko

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    I misunderstood Clause #1 the first time I read it. I actually agree with it--let's go with that.

    (definitely not clause #2, though)

    Case closed?
  18. Oglemi

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    Session adjourned

    As you were gentlemen
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