One-hit knockout moves: Should they be legal?

[Yagami Light]

One of the clauses that I see some debate over is the OHKO clause, namely the clause that blocks moves that kill in one hit, regardless of defense or HP and such. These are disliked by the general higher level members for the very reason that while they have a poor hit rate, they can instantly destroy a wall, something that Pokemon may have not been able to do otherwise, surely. However, there are several reasons as to why these moves aren't merely as bad as they are made out to be. I'll be listing some of the popular arguments and attempt to counter them, as objectively and reasonably as possible.

For your reference the following are OHKO moves: Guillotine, Sheer Cold, Fissure, Horn Drill

The following does not fall under the clause, though it does instantly kill a pokemon if the requirements are met: Perish Song

The first argument is this: They take skill out of the game. To this I'd say that they do not remove skill but they are in fact high risk and high reward moves. They moves are only 8 PP at max with a 30% hit rate, so you are hitting on average 2-3 time if you use it all 8 times. This is a foolhardy assumption, however, as any half decent opponent is not going to just let you use this move (Which, if you whiff it, has no adverse affects to stop the opponent from pummeling you) and instead will begin their offensive.

Secondly, they are easily counterable! There's the most simplest: Use a pokemon with sturdy: A whole plethora of pokemon carry this ability, including some really good ones like Skarmory and Forretress. Guillotine, Horn Drill and Fissure don't hit certain types either, so that's always an option. Also: Substitute makes it so if the OHKO move hits it, it only breaks the sub. Also: Pressure severely reduces the amount of move uses from 8 to 4, just keep that in mind. Focus band and sash also work, but are not that good outside of leads (sahs)

It is also a move that can't be used blindly, sure it can kill, but so can a powerful damage dealing move on the right opponent! Are you sure you just want to give free switch ins to that Salamence around the corner? Nobody does. It's high risk, high reward at its best. Some may argue that this should be taken out as much as possible, but in reality it is a type of playstyle, similar to offensive, stall and the sort. Which also means you'll start seeing more variety.

This will not reduce variety at all, and will in fact open up interesting sets such as Restalk Lapras with Fissure and Sheer Cold, and it will allow some pokemon like Mamoswine who get totally walled by Bronzong or something to have a chance, if nothing else, to get past the wall. EDIT:Mamo doesn't get Sheer Cold it turns out, only fissure. Sorry Mamo, you're still stuck. The only thing it may do is reduce some quantities of No Guard Machamp, but that is not all Machamp can do, of course. (And in fact, that becomes a mindgame in itself, guessing whether to try to OHKO or if it has guts).

So basically, that's all I have on it at the moment. Feel free to point out logical flaws and I'll address you as soon as I can.

-Light

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

I've always agreed upon OHKO as high risk high reward kind of thing. The metagame is so fast itself right now, you're risking a lot to use OHKO's as it is. That 30% is going to suck if there's Lucario, Salamence, Gyarados, Tyranitar, Garchomp etc facing you. The only big way I see this helping are those that are specifically walled by like Blissey, as it can't do anything back to you. Of course, stall teams will get the bad end of allowing OHKOs, since they normally want to extend the game to add more turns. More turns means the OHKOer survives longer, has more chances to hit, and isn't afraid of giving a set up. Although Spiritomb, Forretress and Skarmory are common among stall teams, as well as the here and there Substitute Zapdos, Dusknoirs to help drain PP.

I wouldn't mind having it allowed. It's like what Deoxys-E is to offensive teams. Could cause problems but won't ultimately destroy it. This isn't even a big deal.

P.S. What's the % on OHKO moves against Brightpowder Garchomp lol
P.P.S. Does Gravity affect this...................

 

[Blue Kirby]

Brightpowder does not come into play - there is a 30% chance for the moves to hit regardless of evasion and accuracy modifiers. That also means Gravity doesn't effect the moves.

OHKO moves are so high risk to be using, I'm not sure they'd even be touched in most cases. In an offensive environment, I can't see OHKO moves being that helpful - they will hinder players much more than they help in most cases. Against a stall team, however, is where they will shine, as MoP said, but even stall teams have mechanisms to drain the PP of the moves. Let's face it, the amount of turns you could potentially be giving your opponent isn't going to be worth the odd one shot you score.

I wouldn't mind giving this a shot.

 

[Brawley]

Well I'm all for it as it is high risk and reward, and can give you're a opponent a free turn, and I think something like this would make the metagame more diverse. =>
edit: My friend asked me to post this as a suggestion.
30% OHKO Clause- The clause limiting the excecution(not the selection) of a OHKO move that only has a 30% chance of hitting the opponent. Factors that bypass this are No Guard, Mind Reader, and Lock-On, all of which guarantee the hit with OHKO moves. This removes the "luck" argument of the against OHKO side while making more pokemon viable, which is why the pro-OHKO argument want it unbanned.

 

[Tangerine]

I don't think anything that undermines skill in the game should be allowed.

OHKO moves are something that has more reward against more skilled players. 30% chance to kill one vital member of an Opponent's team?

OHKO moves are also something that undermines stall teams - I'm sure everyone can see at this point how OHKO moves have a way to completely kill stall teams.

This is way worse than Brightpowder, since it's a guaranteed kill if it comes into effect, something Brightpowder doesn't do.

So I don't think it should be allowed at all.

 

[Bologo]

I'm someone who likes risk/reward, as seen in my UU in OU thread and how I outline it and such. Another thing about OHKO moves are that they're not very diverse among the pokemon. Very little actually learns them, and most of the pokemon that actually learn them are UU/BL. Like Light said, this actually promotes variety because of this, and IMO, if people are crazy enough to actually risk using them to give themselves a chance of winning the match, while having a humongous chance of getting their team in a lot of trouble from the switch-in, then let them give it a shot. There are a lot of Sturdy pokemon, and their abilities aren't even doing anything, which is a pity since there are quite a few good ones, like Light mentioned.

If anything, Articuno will be used a lot more since Mind Reader/Sheer Cold/Roost/Ice Beam is a totally viable set, which is quite dangerous with the 100% accurate OHKO move.

I do wonder what will happen to poor Machamp with its No Guard ability making all OHKO moves 100% accurate against it.

I'd say to allow them, but I'll wait for more of the replies in this thread to see if any of them change my position on them, since I truthfully have not had any experience with them since they've been banned so far in DP and I usually just do ladder matches.

Jabba - Good point...

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Hey why don't we forgo battling all together and flip a coin to see who wins their battles! Come on guys, this is way past ridiculous. Ohko moves aren't risk reward, they're mindless clicking of buttons for potential free kills. We're in the process of banning Wobbuffet because it lessens the amount of skill needed to battle. Are we going to follow that up by going in the complete opposite direction?

 

[Carl]

I've never had a problem with OHKO moves past GSC since my play style is almost always offensive. I've usually looked at them as a 70% chance to have a free turn. People rely on that percentage for Gengar's Hypnosis. I wouldn't mind seeing them allowed in regular shoddybattle play because there are ways to work around it as mentioned in the OP and it will usually work out against the OHKO user in the long run. However, I am 100% against allowing OHKO moves in any sort of single or double elimination tournament. Tournaments and such are meant to determine the best battler and OHKOs are a huge reward with little risk for less skilled battlers in a single elimination setting. If I'm up against goofball in a one time battle, I'd highly consider using OHKO moves, and lots of them, to maybe get lucky and shift the battle in my favor when he should clearly have the upper hand if we were going by skill alone.

So, in short, go ahead and unban them for casual play (TBH I didn't even realize they were regularly banned) but please do us all a favor and keep them out of single elimination tournaments.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Well you can't technically say tournaments, only maybe official tournaments, because all these gimmick tournaments, that doesn't really determine the best at battling per se, but the best at be aware of what to abuse, if you catch my drift.

But see, if you -are- using OHKOs, you're leaving a lot of open room to lose. In the greater picture, it's not risk reward of killing a Poke or not, it's the risk reward of either you get lucky with one kill, or you completely open yourself up to a sweep. It's not mindless clicking if you miss, and the other person uses for example Swords Dance Garchomp/Lucario and then proceeds to win because you never get off another move. How is that mindless clicking? To use OHKO is to acknowledge the fact that if you miss, you are fucked.

 

[the Lexx]

Anyone can set whatever rules they want for casual play. If they're banned in tournaments, that will become the norm.

But honestly, why is this a good idea at all? OHKO moves are too good to be allowed: a 30% chance to kill anything at all? It doesn't come down to how smart you play; the game becomes too luck based to be enjoyable.

It's funny that some of the same people who advocate these point out "sand veil" as a reason to ban Garchomp. Just something to think about.

 

[imperfectluck]

(TBH I didn't even realize they were regularly banned)

That in and of itself is the most scary thing in this topic.

I am against the inclusion of OHKO moves in the metagame. Here's a list of all OU Sturdy users in the metagame (none are listed as BL):

Donphan, Forretress, Magnezone, and Skarmory.

We can argue that Magnezone will usually run Magnet Pull, leaving only 3 candidates. Now, out of these 3, there's one thing in common: weak Special Defense. That means that Pokemon like Lapras, Walrein, Abomasnow and so on can hit them extremely hard on their weak special side, easily wearing out the only true "counters" we have to OHKO moves. (Sheer Cold is the best OHKO move btw, with no immunities to speak of minus Shedinja.)

Simply put, there is absolutely no "safe" counter for such a strategy, if say Articuno leads vs. a Salamence lead and the Salamence user wants to switch out that's fine... but then Articuno blindly spamming Sheer Cold at any possible switch in doesn't have any element of "prediction/skill" to it at all, it becomes incredibly luck-based. The reason why OHKO moves were banned to begin with I recall was to prevent every match from turning into such luckfests (saying that Substitute counters OHKO moves in my eyes is the same as saying U-Turn counters Wobbuffet, would you use a team full of nothing but fast Substitute users?)

 

[Bologo]

Simply put, there is absolutely no "safe" counter for such a strategy, if say Articuno leads vs. a Salamence lead and the Salamence user wants to switch out that's fine... but then Articuno blindly spamming Sheer Cold at any possible switch in doesn't have any element of "prediction/skill" to it at all, it becomes incredibly luck-based.

Heh, well Arty doesn't even need to blindly spam Sheer Cold, because it can have it be 100% accurate if it sticks Mind Reader on the set, and it has the defenses to do this several times. Now it's not even luck, it really is just mindless clicking with Articuno. :(

 

[Carl]

I don't see why Smogon can't have its own versions of play with separate rules for say casual vs tournament. The NHL (just to give an example) plays with a 5 minute 4on4 sudden death overtime and then a shootout if the game is tied after 3 periods. In the playoffs, the rules change so that it's just sudden death overtime full periods until someone scores. They don't use shootouts in the playoffs for various reasons but one of them is similar to why we disallow OHKOs: it removes some of the skill element from the game as a whole. I'm not necessarily advocating we have various rulesets to choose from.. it was more just something to think about. I agree that most people will choose to follow the big time tournament rules anyway. And yes MoP.. part of tournaments are also about knowing what to abuse aka team building.

But, anyway, I don't want to derail the topic any more than I may have already. I guess I chose a backward way of saying that I believe OHKOs reduce the skill factor for any single match but are evened out in the long run. If I had to make a clean cut single statement or vote, it would be against allowing OHKOs, if only for the tournament setting alone.

EDIT for IPL- I was referring to a random battle on shoddy or even NetBattle pre-DP. They've always been banned in the more important settings. We've always "frowned upon" OHKO use but if I had to make an assertion, OHKOs and Evasion have been the least enforced of any clauses or rules since Advance.

 

[X-Act]

My stand on this would depend on what do we want from Pokemon. I've always believed that competitive Pokemon in the truest sense of the word does not exist, because Pokemon involves luck. However, there are quite a few luck-based games that are played competitively, among them Poker and Bridge. The trick to minimize luck, or indeed remove it altogether, is not to remove luck from the game as such.

Let's look at Bridge, for instance. Luck is eliminated in competitive play by playing Duplicate Bridge. There are two teams of four players, so Team A,B,C,D plays against Team W,X,Y,Z. Players A and B play against W and X, while players C and D play against Y and Z. However, the cards for both games are ordered identically, and in Game 1, Team 1 deals, while in Game 2, Team 2 deals. This means that the cards held by a player in Game 1 are also held by their opponent in Game 2, and vice-versa. So if Team 1 had lucky cards in Game 1, their opponents will have the same exact lucky cards in Game 2. So luck is completely eliminated from a game that inherently contains some element of luck without actually changing the rules of the game, and things such as Bridge World Championships become possible.

I believe that, in a similar vein, we should aim for a Pokemon tournament format that reduces luck, rather than reduce luck from the game itself.

Back to the topic, then. The problem with OHKO moves is not that they are too good. They actually suck in the long run, but give you wins in the few times that they hit consistently. If the tournament was single-elimination, it would indeed be unfair that a lucky player wins with OHKO moves that hit most of the time against a better player that cannot do anything about it. The problem, then, is not the OHKO moves per se: it's how tournaments are run that's the problem. If tournaments are run such that luck is reduced drastically, then I'm sure that nobody would have any problem with OHKO moves.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I don't see how we could seriously claim to support a competitive metagame while allowing OHKO moves in standard play.

 

[Aldaron]

I see how we can seriously claim to support a competitive metagame while allowing OHKO moves in standard play, so I support potential testing.

IPL mentioned there were only 4 currently OU Pokemon with Sturdy...but I don't see how that applies. Who says introducing these moves won't make Golem, Shuckle or Bastiodon OU as well?

I personally don't like OHKO moves, but they are certainly not "mindless button smashing" or however Jabba so eloquently put it: when you hit the OHKO move, you are consciously making the decision knowing that there is a 70% chance that the opponent sets up on you.

You take a 30% chance to remove a vital part of the opposition's team, with a 70% chance of giving that opponent a vital "free" turn.

I have no problem with potential testing, even though I don't like OHKO moves.

 

[Spaniard]

I feel that OHKO and competitive battles just don't make it. It's true that there's a trait called sturdy, but that would damage the metagame health.

You would be forced to use a sturdy pokemon (less variety in your teams), and you should be very easy to be outpredicted like this:

ohko user sent in, you switch to skarmory and they go to magnozone/Special threat. Owned.

Ohko's take no skill, instead we would see a lot of annoying teams filled with stalling ohkoer's like lapras or articuno. As I see it, knowing that your oponnent is gonna use a ohko move and the only thing you can do about it is pray it misses is a horrible thing. I wouldn't like to see noobs beating pros just because they got lucky.

It's true that they mean a 70% chance of getting a free turn, but also a 30% chance to get a random kill. What if they kill a vital sweeper or a wall? Don't switch the crucial poke in, you say? Then Ohko's highly limit my battling options.

When battling, ohkoer's will be sent against low/middle hitters pokes, so will need 1 turn to switch your hard hitter in. Then you are not likely to kill the ohker in one hit since they will carry defensive ones and they will launch another ohko move. Assuming that by now you didn't get killed (49% chance). They will run away, and once you send a say blissey, they go back to the ohkoer, use rest and start launching ohko's again.

In the long run, 30% chance seems to be too much, note that two turns means 51%, and there are ohkoer's that can survive even four hits.

What makes the difference is that ohko's can't be predicted, so sending your sweeper in and trying to set up is suicidal. Expect the ohkoer to be sent when you can't really hit them, not that they're gonna switch it in against your garchomp. Other dangerous strategies are different since they can be predicted. I can predict a draco meteor or an attempt to use swords dance and act acordingly going to a resistant poke or attacking to ko back, while with ohko's I have no chance but to assume that I have to take a 30% chance to be killed.

In a game where a minor mistake can cost you the match (in pro-gaming). Introducing such a big luck factor will ruin a lot of battles. Consider freeze and critical hits, they happen 10% and 5% of the times, low chances when compared to 30%, and they already screw a lot of games. Can't you see that 30% will ruin the game?

 

[imperfectluck]

Let's say that I have SD Heracross out against Seaking or some other such OHKO user I am incapable of OHKOing. I decided to use Swords Dance, considering that I have a 70% chance of getting ahead in the game by doing so. Seaking / <insert Pokemon here>'s OHKO move landed, putting my opponent ahead in the game. Am I a bad player for taking that 70% chance? Pokemon here at Smogon promotes skill management over luck, therefore I say that it is "unskillful" for promoting "playing against the odds" in order to win. One should be rewarded for winning most of the time, after all, who makes teams to win "30%" of the time?

People complain about Garchomp enough as it is already with Sand Veil's activation rate and other factors. If Sand Veil had a 70% activation ratio, is it "skill" to capitalize on it to win games? If all games were decided on a 30%, what happens to skill? I believe it goes out the window rather than promoting it. Another analogy would be if every single move in Pokemon had only a maximum accuracy of 70%, is this still a game of "skill?" With numbers like these, I believe that the "luck" factor is far out of the player's control and overshadows anything that "skill" can bring to the table.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Regardless of luck, stall teams have no possible way of protecting themselves from OHKOs so I dont really think they could be beneficial to the metagame.

Have a nice day.

 

[Mekkah]

IPL, the thing is, by Swords Dancing, you also took the 30% chance of Seaking downing your Heracross. You don't have an awful lot of room to complain there in my opinion...

I don't really mind facing OHKO moves I think, because most of them are on crappy Pokemon such as Seaking. The problem is things like Lapras and Walrein that are sturdy enough to get multiple potshots in and can hit Sturdy things with Surf.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

I personally don't like OHKO moves, but they are certainly not "mindless button smashing" or however Jabba so eloquently put it: when you hit the OHKO move, you are consciously making the decision knowing that there is a 70% chance that the opponent sets up on you.

They may not always be, but the fact of the matter is they can be reduced to such.

OHKO moves take the game we're currently playing and throw it out the window. The concept of counters is all but eradicated. Heatran is no longer an Articuno counter since if Articuno is faster it wins 51% of the time. Essentially we could be turning the game into one of nothing but a series of coin flips.

 

[Expert Evan]

I am against the idea of OHKO moves since it requires no skill to use them and I often question how rigged the 30% accuracy factor goes into play especially based on my experience in the Emerald Battle Frontier. If it were to be allowed then it would make it harder for stalling and setup pokemon in general.

 

[Mekkah]

What I'd also like to bring up is that the current Ladder system awards consistency. People using OHKO moves will not have a lot of success on the ladder, because their Pokemon are inherently worse, and during the many battles they fight, they will miss an awful lot of OHKOs.

I can see them being banned for tournaments from this, but I really cannot see anyone abusing OHKOs on the ladder and gaining a good spot.

 

[Earthworm]

Although OHKO moves will miss 'most of the time', they are probably not worth legalising since when they do hit they are usually (except when a Substitute is up/a Focus Sash is held) knocking out one sixth of an opposing side which may just be that key threat or wall your opponent needs to beat you, which therefore gives you an (in my opinion unfair) advantage. This combined with the fact that generally OHKO moves favour 'luck' (the person playing against the odds) more than skill when they do hit is enough to convince me that they should stay banned, and although I am not directly opposed to testing I feel that the results of this testing (whatever it may be) should be viewed with a bias against OHKO moves which basically states 'Competitive Pokemon should be more focused on skill than luck/low odds', which I think most of the community has anyway.

The cases where luck does not apply (Lock On/Mind Reader + OHKO move) are different in that you are not dependant on a 30% chance every time you use the move, but if this could not be allowed separately (which is completely impractical anyway) then I am still not in favour of allowing OHKO moves at all.

Obviously there are anti-OHKO Pokemon such as Skarmory and Forretress, but a lot of the Pokemon using the OHKO moves can fairly easily prepare for beating them too by dedicating an additional moveslot/team slot to moves that will beat them.

I was once knocked out of a Nintendo tournament held in 2006 due to a Kyogre successfully using Sheer Cold against my Blissey which was very annoying indeed. I am sure many have experienced immense frustration similar to this if only in the Battle Tower (Quick Claw Crawdaunt is clearly greater than Choice Scarf Heracross) which can make it difficult to hold an objective stance towards OHKO moves, but if nearly everyone agrees then it should not be too problematic to simply ban them outright.

Basically I am biased against OHKO moves and would not like to see them unbanned.

 

[Jumpman16]

locked until we've decided on the proper order of operations