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One Piece (spoilers!)

Discussion in 'The Great Library' started by some hero, Jul 10, 2012.

  1. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    geh, white beard war was the messiest arch, and Oda's handling of Ace is probably the one biggest (and only real) complaint I have with One Piece as a series. Also the way White Beard died... hrmmmm... the Marine Ford arc has just way too many problems with it, a result of trying to even the consistencies between way too many characters. Oda has incredible foresight and does an incredible job setting most plots up, but this one definitely should have been done better.

    @Fishman island stuff-- the arc did it's job of demonstrating the crew's growth and developing the plot for the new world, which is where the real story is supposed to begin. That's really the bottom line. :/

    You can sum up most of the importance of the fishman arc with this:
    Show Hide


    [​IMG]
  2. Vein

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    Of course the WB war has its flaws. The sequences are too overwhelming to write or to direct, resulting to inconsistencies (Gekko Moriah's zombies under the sun comes to mind). Oda is just a human afterall.

    What do you mean by Oda's handling of Ace? His death? I think this event played an important role in Luffy's character development. It even still played a major role on the crew's development we've seen in the Fishman island arc. I agree though that WB should've died a better way.
  3. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    Yes, watch it. I think watching it is the best way to start because the characters' voices are really well-suited. Not to mention the music in the series is perfect as well. However, the first 20 - 30 episodes are pretty terrible so you'll need to grind through those. Once you do, you'll be binging due to how good it is. I envy those discovering One Piece for the first time.
  4. Jimbo

    Jimbo take me anywhere
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    I don't think it was ever stated that the zombies couldn't be under the sun.... People without their shadows are the ones who can't be in the sun (zombies have shadows, they're fine).

    But yea, one piece is awesome... I'm not usually the type to be like "wow this chapter sucks" or "this manga sucks" to a manga that I read but lately I have been thinking that about Naruto (this chapter was a big wtf). I've never really thought that about OP. The way Oda plans is super impressive (The Vivre Card introduced 200+ chapters before it was introduced? Insane).
  5. franky

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    Yeah if there's one thing Oda is known for, its his crazy impressive planning and foreshadowing. If I had the time to link all the little details he hinted us, it would take me the entire day.. lol
  6. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    One aspect of One Piece I like is that even when there are fillers, they make sense, or at the very least they aren't there to just fill time.
  7. some hero

    some hero

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    You mean lately right? It wasn't always like that.
  8. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    For the story to come to where it has, Ace had to die and the Marine Ford arc had to happen. It serves the purposes of (in order of priority):

    a) Forcing Luffy to realize his weakness, and inability to stand on the "big stage" of the world's pirates as he was.
    b) Killing off white beard in order to start the beginning of a new era
    c) Setting the stage for black beard
    d) developing a bunch of characters, both former WB pirates and marines (and of course, Jinbe, Ivankof/Revolutionary arm)

    All these are key points to the arc, but the arc itself was set up very badly-- especially with regards to killing off ace.

    Ace is Roger's son, Luffy's adopted brother, and until marine ford, was the representative to us, the audience, of WB's crew and the virtues of pirates in the new world. The point is, he's a very important character to the universe of One Piece-- but we barely knew anything about him!

    Bottom line is: we never saw any character development between Luffy and Ace at all, which fucked up the marine ford arc a lot. :|


    If someone asked you about the bond between Luffy and Zoro-- you could go on and on about it. About Luffy saving Zoro from corrupt Marines, about the dual with Mihawk, their mutual trust in each other's strength and compatibility. If you asked about Luffy and Nami, you'd hear about the tear wrenching tale of how Luffy saved her from the terror of Arlong, and what it meant to Nami. Luffy and Usopp, Luffy and Chopper, Luffy and Frankly, Robin, fuck, even Luffy and Hachi.

    Luffy and Ace? What did we know at the point of the shabondy arc (before impel down)?

    Uh... they're brothers. Therefore they love each other.

    ...

    ...
    ...

    [​IMG]

    :|

    When you rely on the bonds between characters for the plot, you need to show (NOT TELL) the development of said bond. Oda is normally really good at this, but with Ace he basically just fell flat on his face. The whole Marine Ford arc is based on the importance of Ace and Luffy's bond, which wasn't established AT ALL.

    "They're brothers, therefore Ace is important to Luffy." Too bad that One Piece has completely ignored the importance of familial love up until now-- at least with Luffy's family. Up until Marine Ford, we see Ace and Luffy meet once and exchange a brief conversation. We see Luffy and Garp reunite after who knows when and barely care at all about their reunion (Luffy's more annoyed than anything). Fuck, Luffy didn't even know he had a Dad, and really didn't care about it. Familial loyalty had never been a big part of Luffy's character until Marine Ford.

    SO when Luffy suddenly went ballistic about saving Ace (especially when up until this point, Luffy had been against "interfering with Ace's adventure"), it was REALLY out of character. Not only was it weird for Luffy to do, but from the perspective of the audience, there was no reason at all for Luffy to go ballistic, aside from "they're brothers."

    [​IMG]

    Sure, I think Oda realizes he fucked that up AFTER it was all said and done, and then tried to back track and ass-pull a flash back sequence to FORCE IN a relationship between Ace and Luffy after-the-fact, it didn't really mean shit because it was too late...

    This "brotherly love" relationship flashback was as bad, forced and pointless as a ship written by a crazed yaoi fan girl.

    [​IMG]

    Throwing it in after doesn't work... for the entirety of the Marine Ford arc I was sitting back thinking "what the fuck is going on," because I didn't understand at all the importance of the relationship between Luffy and Ace.

    God, don't even get me started on how awful and pointless the flash back arc was too. Usually when you use a flashback, you're trying to develop something that develops the story going forward-- but that flashback sequence totally flopped on that point too. Ace was already dead, so establishing the relationship after-the-fact was both meaningless to the plot going forward, and cheap ass-pullish since it didn't really alleviate the annoyance with Marine Ford. On TOP of that, Sabo got killed off (his death is not just "assumed" it's actually "confirmed," Sabo is in fact dead). If Sabo had possibly lived, than maybe the whole flash back sequence would have had SOME point in developing an important future character, but Sabo is in fact dead (more annoying is that this was confirmed not in the manga, which leaves room for interpretation, but in an official One Piece data book, which is just dumb).


    Essentially, Ace should have been developed more, USED MORE, before he was killed off. Ace was a character so pivotal to the story, and with so much potential in terms of power, heritage, connections-- man, it was such a waste story wise!

    This could have been done so easily, at so many points in the story. Ace could have played a bigger role in Alabastia; he could have been thrown in during one of the adventure arcs...

    Fuck, it could be as simple as... when Luffy noticed the Vivra card shrinking, he could have shown a bit more concern-- he could have stared at it by himself at night, and one of the other characters could have approached him and asked him if he was worried about Ace, and about his relationship with Ace-- then Luffy could have gone into flash back mode, and we could have gotten the whole Ace + Luffy + Sabo child adventure BEFORE Marine Ford, which would have been fantastic because than the whole arc would have been way WAY better. Instead we got, "hmm, it worries me, but Ace is strong so it's cool. Let's ignore it and keep going without developing this point more."

    Oda really flopped with how he used Ace, but it's really the only big issue I have with the One Piece story so far.

    Also, White Beard, in his final battle not killing/maiming ANYONE important... -_____-
  9. some hero

    some hero

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    I think this Ace thing is spolier filled. Maybe hide it or something? I agree with the bad flashback but i think the brother thing was a big enough excuse for Luffy to go crazy. Though this relies on the readers understanding of what it means to have a brother. I guess if the reader was an only child than Oda did sort of failed him in explaining Aces importance.
  10. Vein

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    First off, about Whitebeard. He's not really supposed to finish anyone from the start. He's supposed to fail epicly. This represents his character as a whole: somebody who's always been viewed as great, always almost there, but not really there. That’s what he was since Gol’s haydays.

    Then Ace’s death. This is all about style of writing chosen by Oda. Everything you’ve said are true. We don’t know anything about Luffy and Ace’s relationship, except they really love each other. Yes, we don’t know everything, but we all know this is pretty important. And that raises many questions. Oda is answering it one by one, his first step is the flashback episodes. But, I don’t think Oda is done there. We’ve seen just glimpses of Luffy’s and Gol’s family. And the D’s. Ace is somebody between those things. Some questions about him will be answered. But yeah, who knows what Oda has in his mind. That’s not disappointing to me however, but pretty clever writing. Remember the first we saw him? We say “ wtf, he’s stronger than Luffy, and Luffy knows him? Somebody like that exists?” Then, the answer is “oh he’s Luffy’s bro”, then “wtf, he’s not Luffy’s bro?.. wtf”.. etc. Mysteries comes and goes, and it’s not done yet.

    Of course, there’s also a thing about OP strory as a whole: the story is about Luffy and his crew. I know you’re disappointed ‘coz Ace is a pretty big character, but really, he is just another outlier who at the same time important to develop Luffy’s character. He might just be one of those guys who need their own series (like the Penguins of Madagascar, or Timon and Pumba)
  11. Chou Toshio

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    The point is you need to develop the relationship in order for us to get (and relate with) the affect on Luffy and his growth. Oda didn't do this well at all.

    And no matter what you say, killing off Roger's son, whom Roger (and his wife?) put so much effort into birthing (I mean the lady freakin' willed her baby not to be born for months!), without him doing ANYTHING major for the story (except get killed), is a just criminally wasteful, and just an awful use of a character. In other words, it's bad writing and planning no matter how you look at it.

    Even if you think Ace will somehow be used in the story in the future, the man's DEAD, there's only so much you can use him for-- especially since Oda will never pull some BS edo tensei rip off. If he does, I would seriously stop reading one piece... ok maybe not, but I'd be tempted to.

    But if that's the case, if WB ultimately amounts to exactly what Akainu said he was (a loser), than fuck-- you're just (as a writer) making a joke out of everything he stood for and represented! Not to mention demeaning ALL the characters that esteem him (Ace, Jinbe, Luffy, etc.). WB is supposed to be great, and he's supposed to be meaningful, in which case, he should have been way more powerful. I don't give a fuck how many slash and bullet wounds the man was able to endure. Any Logia with a bit of Haki smarts could do the same.

    WB should have done SOMETHING of importance in the battle-- best if he dealt a serious wound to one of the major antagonists (Akainu or BB), even if he couldn't kill him. This is where One Piece actually would have been better off taking a page from Naruto's book (OMG), and done something like what the 3rd accomplished against Orochimaru. It signified the end of a chapter in Konoha's history, but at the same time, cemented the 3rd's position as a great man, whose sacrifice really meant something. Oda just made WB's sacrifice into... nothing... trash. It kinda sucked. At least let him deal a brutal wound to BB that would prevent him from jumping immediately into his plans for domination, or force him to seek out some remedy to his wound. Sure Naruto didn't exactly play that one out well with Orochimaru, but it doesn't mean Oda couldn't have done it better.

    Or, you could always let WB kill off an antagonist that you're not planning to use any more *cough*cough*Sengoku*cough*. srsly... >_____>



    I realize this is a lot of complaints for One Piece from a One Piece fan, but Oda is such a great writer who has set such a high bar for himself (and others) that I can't help but point out these problems.


    edit: btw, go re-read my previous posts, I threw in some pictures to make it better.
  12. Chou Toshio

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    Oh, I just thought of ANOTHER way you could have developed Ace better pre-Marine Ford. Just have Luffy flash back the whole thing while he's deleriously fighting off Magelan's poison in Impel Down.

    He could:

    A) Flash back the whole Ace thing while Bon-chan's looking fighting the wolves, then while imagining Ace about to be executed, wake up by sheer force of will and with his determination not to lose Ace or anyone important to him, awaken his haoshoku to destroy the wolves.

    B) Flash back the ace thing while fighting the poison under the influence of Ivankov's hormones. Than, with his strong will to live and save Ace, overcome the poison.

    Either of the above patterns would have worked beautifully. Gdamn, Oda had an infinite number of opportunities to tactfully weave Ace's flash back sequence in BEFORE the marine ford arc.

    He wouldn't even have to devulge any spoilers about Ace's heritage. He could develop that part of ace in more, briefer flash backs after the marined ford arc. The connection between the two flash back sequences would even give them better balance. beh, I'm wasting my breath here though, what's done is done...
  13. Vein

    Vein

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    (Can't see the images yet. My office's internet has so many restrctions)

    Yup, what's done is done :) I still think though that Ace is well presented in OP, very important but not too grand. Oda is just finding the balance so he won't surpass the lesser Straw Hats members (Brook, Franky) in terms of character development 'coz as I've said, this thing is about Luffy and his crew. But I do agree that some things should have presented in a better way (sequence of flashbacks), but that's also the case of many long mangas/anime.

    Btw, you've said 2 things which greatly describes WB: a loser and a joke. That's what his character is. And as I've said, his failure was planned as soon as he's introduced in OP.
  14. panamaxis

    panamaxis Allons-y!
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    What's with all the whitebeard hate?

    In the war whitebeard...

    -fought all three admirals
    -made tsunamis with ease
    -still managed to destroy Akainu with a ridiculous amount of wounds and half of his face melted off
    -broke out of Aokiji freezing him with ease
    -made Vice Admirals (not garp) look like complete trash compared to him, even swatting away ~8 of them with one swing of his bissento at one point.
    -soaked damage like a madman
    -was seconds away from killing Blackbeard before his crew interfered

    Akainu literally said Whitebeard was going to wipe the island off the face of the planet if he kept going like he was.

    On top of this it was pretty clear that whitebeard was handicapped before the war even begun by his age (Akainu pointed this out if it wasn't already obvious) and Squardo stabbing him. And this isn't even taking into account that he couldn't use his full power because they had ace hostage and he had to be concerned about hurting his allies.

    iirc Oda said something like he prefers to kill people's dreams rather than actually kill them and it was already pretty clear that Whitebeard was on a higher level to anyone else in Marineford. Keeping this in mind what would be the point of Whitebeard killing an important character?

    That being said I kinda agree that Ace/Luffy's bond could have been explored a bit more before MarineFord but I didn't find it a huge deal overall. Anyway...one piece is a great manga and I have hardly any complaints about it (except for Pell....)

    Sabo is still alive:naughty:
  15. Vein

    Vein

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    Wait... There's no hate here for WB. I think he's cool.

    I'm just saying what's his character is all about.
  16. gookie

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    i agree with chou about white beard doing jack shit, i was disappointed. for all intents and purposes he just stood on the helm of his ship and absorbed damage.

    and yeah i definitely wanted more ace before he died, i felt no emotional connection to him as a character and him dying being such a big deal for everyone else just didn't touch me as much as it should have.
  17. Chou Toshio

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    poppy summed up in 4 lines what it took me 10 paragraphs to outline. lol

    @Panamaxis-- The size of the flames during your power up sequence mean jack shit if you can't kill Freeza. The size of the crater from your Kamehameha wave is equally irrelevant if he's still alive.

    Looking at all the battles of One Piece, I think it's safe to say that all the wounds in the world don't mean jack shit if they have no long-term repercussions and the character doesn't lose. Luffy heals off his battle wounds in... like... 1 chapter. Fuck, even Usopp does. Unless you can deal long-term damage (or defeat/kill) a character such that it's relevant to the ongoing plot, you didn't do jack shit.

    The undeniable fact is that the death of the "strongest man in the world" ultimately accomplished... nothing. Basically nothing. That's ridiculous.

    You can point out the limitations on WB from his condition/age, but his character is supposed to be above this. How the fuck did he get stabed by sqwal when he could beat the shit out of Ace who was attacking him in his sleep. He couldn't expect a betrayal? He couldn't imagine Akainu doing something sneaky to instigate a really underhanded plan? I mean, WB's been around so long, he's gotta know the marines are a bunch of douche bags.

    The way WB was handled during the marine arc was just a mess.
  18. Vein

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    I assure you though that it's one of the reasons you're still following OP...

    Chou, as I've said, WB's fate is set-upped from the start. He's supposed to fail. He's supposed to die for nothing. Despite all his greatness, he won't come close to what Gol has accomplished, whereas Luffy will someday.

    Back to Ace where you say we can't get anything from him since he's dead, I doubt that. Gol is dead, but he has affected every character's moves to this date. Well, Ace can still pull that off (to Luffy at least).
  19. Chou Toshio

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    I disagree-- considering his position in the story, what he stands for how he was set up, and the role he plays in Luffy's life, he should have accomplished more in his final battle. He was set up for tragic greatness imo, and that's what he should have achieved (and it's what I think Oda THINKS he's achieved though he hasn't).
  20. Vein

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    This pretty much sums this up... and I agree.
  21. Chou Toshio

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    Yeah, lame :|
  22. gookie

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    gol affects everyone through his legacy

    ace's legacy is substantially less impressive and much less isolated (ace's death is only the most important to luffy obviously). ace is remembered in the name of somebody else, whitebeard, i highly doubt he will continue to affect the story outside of shitty flashbacks and spiritual visits (these hopefully won't happen)
  23. Vein

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    On the Sniper Island
    I was born
    A hundred shots, a hundred hits
    Lu lu lala lu

    Even a mouse's eye
    Lock on!
    Even your Heart
    Lock on!!

    The man who came from the Sniper Island
    Lululu lulu lala
    Run Away!
    Sogege Soge Soge
    Sogeking!
  24. franky

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    Even though Akainu called him a loser, it wasn't intended to describe the person Whitebeard was. In fact, everyone in the arc regarded him as a very powerful threat, even Sengoku himself. The author was simply trying to introduce the type of character Akainu was; fearless and provoking. Even though Akainu ridiculed him by calling him a loser, it isn't actually true! It just goes to show what a bully Akainu was, even reaching to a low point where he insulted someone's heroic intentions. I don't think anyone here thinks he's actually a loser right? lol

    Whitebeard was accurate with the epithet Oda gave him. Dude was fucking riding on his hype train. I don't know how else Oda would have represented his strength. Even with the countless drawbacks, he was still able to put up a show, particularly being up to the par with arguably the strongest marine in the manga. No other man, even 'any Logia with a bit of Haki smarts' will put off the same stunt Whitebeard did in this arc. If it does happen however, then I'll probably lose respect for the author. But I know Oda did the best he could to make this kind of stunt unrepeatable, otherwise it would tarnish Whitebeard's character. Show some love for the man!
  25. TheValkyries

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    I've never read the Manga of One Piece, and I've only watched the first couple of Seasons of the Anime way back when. I never really fell in love with the show, and I'm wondering why is it exactly that you guys hold One Piece in such a high regard?

    Basically, why do you think One Piece is so good?

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