[DONE] KANTO CLASSIC: Post your results!

[DonDonKun]

Actually I would go as far as thinking sleep talk should be preferred over curse if choice must be made, because it allows snorlax to not be just a sitting duck for something else to setup on him, but it also works better as a sleep absorber thanks to it ever since I have seen a couple teams running either Spore (Parasect) or Sleep Powder (Venusaur, Venomoth) which is really annoying. On that note I would be specially wary of Venomoth teams not getting out of control with quiver dances because those really hurt a lot.
I agree with having a cleric though, just not sure if Jolteon's the best candidate for it although chances are your team relies on clefable for sweeping rather than supporting and there's no better second option.
Also how useful is HP ice on Jolteon anyway? Sure it's a pseudo Bolt-Beam combo but aside from Dragonite it doesn't really hit anything else hard right?

Thanks for the advice! I guess I'll try playing around with Snorlax sets without Curse or Sleep Talk and see which one benefits my team more in the long run. But I agree a sleep absorber comes in handy for the occasional Venusaur or Venomoth.

The way I see it, Clefable is the best at a number of roles (Cleric, CM, SR setter), but you can really only get away with 2/3 of these (if you forgo T-Wave) on one set. Jolteon being the 2nd best cleric will have to suffice, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing as Jolteon is great in this meta. I personally feel HP Ice is the best coverage move on Jolteon as Shadow Ball isn't doing a whole lot for it (SB is still a 2HKO on Zam & Gar before rocks, which T-Bolt achieves anyway). Dragonite is the most obvious target for HP Ice, but the move also hits grounds (Nidoking, Golem, Rhydon) and grasses (Venusaur) for more damage than Shadow Ball.

Another question for peeps in this thread, how have you been dealing with OHKO moves like Fissure, Horn Drill & Sheer Cold? It occurred to me that with more stally teams on the higher ladder that OHKO moves could become a decent - albeit luck-based - way of muscling through stuff like Clefable & Snorlax. Since I'm not used to playing with a rule set that allows these moves, I haven't thought of much counterplay (thankfully most people I've faced seem to be "honorable" enough not to use these moves, heh).

 

[Vif-Argent]

Another question for peeps in this thread, how have you been dealing with OHKO moves like Fissure, Horn Drill & Sheer Cold? It occurred to me that with more stally teams on the higher ladder that OHKO moves could become a decent - albeit luck-based - way of muscling through stuff like Clefable & Snorlax. Since I'm not used to playing with a rule set that allows these moves, I haven't thought of much counterplay (thankfully most people I've faced seem to be "honorable" enough not to use these moves, heh).

I guess there is no way to deal with it except Sturdy users like Golem. Just use Flying or Levitate mons against Fissure :)
The OP of OHKO moves is due to a restricted format and not to their own way.

 

[zero2exe]

If OHKO moves really become a problem you can fix it by including sturdy users in your team, Magneton and Golem come to mind and deal pretty well against most OHKO users as well while providing other utility as well (Golem + Sucker Punch = Dead Alaka/Gengar if it works).

 

[3heartschall]

Guys, what about magic coat? Clefable, Alakazan, Tentacruel, Slowbro can use it. Could this be viable, since there are SR setters, toxic, TW, etc etc?

 

[Aaron101]

I've found myself having the most trouble with sub alakazam and rest talk snorlax, Has anyone found out any decent checks to these two?

 

[Darkrising]

I've found myself having the most trouble with sub alakazam and rest talk snorlax, Has anyone found out any decent checks to these two?

wheezing shuts down Snorlax due to taunt and Will o wisp. Plus having the defence to tank its hits.

 

[Tonio]

I really struggle against boosted Dragonite with Iron Head / Tail. Which mon do you use to handle it ?
I'm also looking for a good spiner barring Tentacruel since I already use Weezing and my team has a little weakness against Alakazam.

 

[ethan06]

Starmie could be a decent spinner. I know nothing about this format so Starmie might not be the greatest Alakazam check if Zam commonly runs Shadow Ball, but at least it resists the Psychic STAB and can Thunder Wave it to cripple. It's also the only other Kanto spinner I can think of so there's that too

 

[Omastar68]

I have trouble with electric types and sleep absorbers-especially sleep absorbers-but idk what to use for them. I've asked for help on PS and tembuildin help, but no dice. The Poke doesn't necessarily have to wall electrics, but it shouldn't be weak to them, psychic, or ghost. It should be able to switch in on Venemoth's Sleep Powder and beat it if it lacks QD boosts(ideally even if it has one, but that's probably unlikely.)

I was using Primeape, and while it does meet all the criteria except being weak to psychic, having three psychic weak Pokes in this meta is not good. Electabuzz, Magmar, and Parasect all sort of fit with what I want(well, not really Parasect cause 60/80/80 bulk and a bug weakness,) but they all kinda suck. I've though about Sucker Punch Victreebell, but that seems really iffy. Venusaur would be nice bar the psychic weakness, though it also can't really do anything to Gengar and isn't much good in general. I could make other changes to my team so I have less psychic weak Pokes and can thus afford to put Primeape back on, but Nidoqueen and Gengar are really good.

Is there any priority that OHKOs standard Venomoth?

 

[Tonio]

I personnaly use Snorlax. It cdeals well with Electric-type with its good special defense, can absorb sleep with sleep talk and do a good amount of damage to Venomoth with Body Slam or Phaze it with Whirwind. It's immune to Ghost and not weak to Psychic / Electric :)

 

[Omastar68]

I personnaly use Snorlax. It cdeals well with Electric-type with its good special defense, can absorb sleep with sleep talk and do a good amount of damage to Venomoth with Body Slam or Phaze it with Whirwind. It's immune to Ghost and not weak to Psychic / Electric :)

Now I feel stupid. I use a Snorlax, so Ofc I should change it to Sleep Talk. Really like the current set, but I need an answer to sleep(speaking of, since Sleep is so potent why ain't Venomoth more common?) For the sixth slot I'll just need something good vs electrics, and not weak to psychic or ghost. That's easy enough.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Thanks for the advice! I guess I'll try playing around with Snorlax sets without Curse or Sleep Talk and see which one benefits my team more in the long run. But I agree a sleep absorber comes in handy for the occasional Venusaur or Venomoth.

The way I see it, Clefable is the best at a number of roles (Cleric, CM, SR setter), but you can really only get away with 2/3 of these (if you forgo T-Wave) on one set. Jolteon being the 2nd best cleric will have to suffice, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing as Jolteon is great in this meta. I personally feel HP Ice is the best coverage move on Jolteon as Shadow Ball isn't doing a whole lot for it (SB is still a 2HKO on Zam & Gar before rocks, which T-Bolt achieves anyway). Dragonite is the most obvious target for HP Ice, but the move also hits grounds (Nidoking, Golem, Rhydon) and grasses (Venusaur) for more damage than Shadow Ball.

Another question for peeps in this thread, how have you been dealing with OHKO moves like Fissure, Horn Drill & Sheer Cold? It occurred to me that with more stally teams on the higher ladder that OHKO moves could become a decent - albeit luck-based - way of muscling through stuff like Clefable & Snorlax. Since I'm not used to playing with a rule set that allows these moves, I haven't thought of much counterplay (thankfully most people I've faced seem to be "honorable" enough not to use these moves, heh).

Fissure, a Ground immune mon. Horn Drill, can't really do anything. Articuno, switching resets Mind Reader so at least you have a 70% chance of not dying.
A meta where Articuno and Alakazam are actually good would be heavenly, but of course it's JP only as far as I can tell.

 

[Vengeance417]

Ok, this thing's a monster. With the metagame not having a Sleep Clause and is filled to the brim with Alakazam + Starmie and other psychic types, Venomoth just sweeps through weakened teams after a single Quiver Dance. Sleep Powdering the entire opposing team makes a devastating snowball-effect. Tinted Lens makes sweeping much easier, turning resisted hits to neutral ones and quad resists to merely two times resists. After you set up a QD, you're faster than the entire unboosted metagame where you're free to put everything to sleep unless it's a grass type or has Overcoat for an ability (Cloyster...but why use this over Skill Link?) which you destroy with Bug Buzz anyway.

In my opinion, it's the best set up sweeper in the tier, bar none. It has so many positives that make it so:

• Quiver Dance is pretty much the best set-up move in the game.
• With Tinted Lens doing a lot to resisted hits, it can afford to run a mono-attacking set with QD/Sleep Powder/Roost to give it plenty more setup opportunities.
• Naturally faster than Dragonite and everything slower, which makes up a huge chunk of the metagame, making it among the fastest sleep-inducers in the meta.
• You could even "QuiverPass" to another special attacker such as Alakazam and Gengar to support a sweep for either of those two, using Baton Pass to pass your boosts to another teammate.

Look at this calc:

252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 66-78 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Now, that doesn't seem all that impressive, but that's a "RESISTED" hit vs Clefable. All you need is the slightest amount of prior damage on Clef and it's no longer a switchin to mono-attacking Venomoth. Even then, you can just put it to sleep and keep hammering it with Bug Buzz. Sludge Bomb is still a decent move to run, but it isn't necessary when you can run Roost over it, especially due to the fact that Buzz does so much to Clef.

It does have its issues. RestTalk Snorlax handles it very well and is Venomoth's biggest (huehuehue) and baddest enemy, and can either Body Slam it for the Para chance or simply Whirlwind it out. Body Slam does a lot towards Venomoth since it isn't the sturdiest of Pokemon around. Speaking of Paralysis, it severely cripples Venomoth. If Clef happens to be healthy enough to Paralyze you, you're in trouble vs revenge killers. Priority attacks such as Dragonite and Arcanine's Extremespeed and Nidoking's Sucker Punch can also pick you off if you've been weakened enough.

Machamp makes an excellent Snorlax-breaking partner, while Jolteon can outpace Alakazam and not only Volt Switch out and back to Venomoth (VoltTurn is nice when paired with Venomoth) but can also provide a fast Heal Bell in case Venomoth has been stricken with Paralysis. Having your own Psychic type such as SpDef Slowbro also helps when pivoting around Alakazam, something Venomoth appreciates. Hazard removal is nice to have as Venomoth is weak to Stealth Rock, but it's not as detrimental towards Venomoth than towards Dragonite, who has to contend with a broken Multiscale.

 

[Omastar68]

Ok, this thing's a monster. With the metagame not having a Sleep Clause and is filled to the brim with Alakazam + Starmie and other psychic types, Venomoth just sweeps through weakened teams after a single Quiver Dance. Sleep Powdering the entire opposing team makes a devastating snowball-effect. Tinted Lens makes sweeping much easier, turning resisted hits to neutral ones and quad resists to merely two times resists. After you set up a QD, you're faster than the entire unboosted metagame where you're free to put everything to sleep unless it's a grass type or has Overcoat for an ability (Cloyster...but why use this over Skill Link?) which you destroy with Bug Buzz anyway.

In my opinion, it's the best set up sweeper in the tier, bar none. It has so many positives that make it so:

• Quiver Dance is pretty much the best set-up move in the game.
• With Tinted Lens doing a lot to resisted hits, it can afford to run a mono-attacking set with QD/Sleep Powder/Roost to give it plenty more setup opportunities.
• Naturally faster than Dragonite and everything slower, which makes up a huge chunk of the metagame, making it among the fastest sleep-inducers in the meta.
• You could even "QuiverPass" to another special attacker such as Alakazam and Gengar to support a sweep for either of those two, using Baton Pass to pass your boosts to another teammate.

Look at this calc:

252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 66-78 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Now, that doesn't seem all that impressive, but that's a "RESISTED" hit vs Clefable. All you need is the slightest amount of prior damage on Clef and it's no longer a switchin to mono-attacking Venomoth. Even then, you can just put it to sleep and keep hammering it with Bug Buzz. Sludge Bomb is still a decent move to run, but it isn't necessary when you can run Roost over it, especially due to the fact that Buzz does so much to Clef.

It does have its issues. RestTalk Snorlax handles it very well and is Venomoth's biggest (huehuehue) and baddest enemy, and can either Body Slam it for the Para chance or simply Whirlwind it out. Body Slam does a lot towards Venomoth since it isn't the sturdiest of Pokemon around. Speaking of Paralysis, it severely cripples Venomoth. If Clef happens to be healthy enough to Paralyze you, you're in trouble vs revenge killers. Priority attacks such as Dragonite and Arcanine's Extremespeed and Nidoking's Sucker Punch can also pick you off if you've been weakened enough.

Machamp makes an excellent Snorlax-breaking partner, while Jolteon can outpace Alakazam and not only Volt Switch out and back to Venomoth (VoltTurn is nice when paired with Venomoth) but can also provide a fast Heal Bell in case Venomoth has been stricken with Paralysis. Having your own Psychic type such as SpDef Slowbro also helps when pivoting around Alakazam, something Venomoth appreciates. Hazard removal is nice to have as Venomoth is weak to Stealth Rock, but it's not as detrimental towards Venomoth than towards Dragonite, who has to contend with a broken Multiscale.

I agree. Forget about DNite, this is what you have to prepare for. Venomoth is quite hard to get past. Relying on Sleep powder missing is not a strategy. Grass types in gen1 are all kinda sucky with Zam everywhere, and the Vital Spirit Pokes either suck or are Primeape. Primeape also has that awful psychic weakness. Really Sleep Talk is your only hope here without items for CB Extremespeed from DNite or something.

 

[Sceptross]

Totally agree. Now delete those posts, I don't want people to prepare for that ;-;

It's okay to post if it's only a set right?
Venomoth
Ability: Tinted Lens
Level: 50
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Sleep Powder
- Quiver Dance
- Substitute / Roost / Baton Pass / Sludge Bomb

Venomoth doesn't need a speed-boosting nature to outspeed the whole unboosted metagame after Quiver Dance, but you need Timid to outspeed Gyarados and Dragonite. You need to reach 147 speed to outspeed both (Modest reaches 142). I would perhaps put the remaining EVs into HP if you go with Timid to help a little with priority. You are not guaranteed to 3HKO Clefable with Timid though.

About the coverage moves, Substitute is awesome after a Sleep Powder, almost guaranteeing you get your Quiver Dance and outspeed everything (watch out for multi-hit moves, Rock Blast from Rocks and Cloyster to name a few). Baton Pass is Baton Pass, and there are many Pokemon that would love to get those nifty boosts (to name a few not named before, Jolteon really appreciates the extra power, Clefable can use the boosts for Stored Power, Nidoking can be a monster with those boosts). Sludge Bomb is for extra damage on Clefable, but it really doesn't need that, Bug Buzz hits hard already.

Now to the counters. All of these were calc'd with 0/0 investment. You get hard countered by Snorlax. Watch out for Chansey if you don't carry Roost. Gyarados WILL be a problem if you don't outspeed it, since it is only 2HKO'd after one Quiver Dance and it can send you to oblivion with pretty much any move, specially after Dragon Dance or SR. You need to be at least at +2 to guarantee a 2HKO on Articuno, and it can 2HKO you with Freeze-Dry or 1HKO with Hurricane (are they carrying that?). Muk also needs a +2 to get 2HKO'd, and it can 2HKO you too, but it shouldn't be much of a problem, specially since you outspeed it. Specially Defensive Zapdos 1HKO's you after SR damage with Heat Wave, and also needs +2 to get 2HKO'd. In fact, with Sleep Talk, it might be an interesting counter to it. I can see people run Rest/Sleep Talk in Zapdos instead of Roost just to counter this thing if it starts being used too much. Paralysis and Priority also helps a lot:

252 Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 70-83 (48.2 - 57.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 81-95 (55.8 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

152 Atk Nidoking Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 54-64 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

But Snorlax will always be the number 1 counter.

 

[NOVED]

Fissure, a Ground immune mon. Horn Drill, can't really do anything. Articuno, switching resets Mind Reader so at least you have a 70% chance of not dying.
A meta where Articuno and Alakazam are actually good would be heavenly, but of course it's JP only as far as I can tell.

I dont think Articuno is really using mind reader. It just utilizes sub/roost and its great bulk to get a lot of turns to try to hit.

 

[cant say]

I dont think Articuno is really using mind reader. It just utilizes sub/roost and its great bulk to get a lot of turns to try to hit.

Someone should use RestTalk with Sheer Cold and Roar imo

 

[DonDonKun]

Someone should use RestTalk with Sheer Cold and Roar imo

Lapras could also work for a RestTalk/Sheer Cold/Roar set if you're concerned about losing 50% of your health switching into rocks with Articuno. Its bulk is a bit lower but you can run Battle Armour and not care about crits ruining your day.

I suppose Snorlax could pull off a similar set with RestTalk/Body Slam/Fissure, though it wouldn't work against flyers and levitate mons (please don't start running OHKO moves everywhere people).

Funny how OHKO moves are looking like a viable answer to stall teams now.

 

[NOVED]

Lapras could also work for a RestTalk/Sheer Cold/Roar set if you're concerned about losing 50% of your health switching into rocks with Articuno. Its bulk is a bit lower but you can run Battle Armour and not care about crits ruining your day.

I suppose Snorlax could pull off a similar set with RestTalk/Body Slam/Fissure, though it wouldn't work against flyers and levitate mons (please don't start running OHKO moves everywhere people).

Funny how OHKO moves are looking like a viable answer to stall teams now.

(please don't start running OHKO moves everywhere people).

lol you should check out the PS room sometimes. They're already being run everywhere.

 

[zero2exe]

Guess Golem's gonna be a prime choice here because of Sturdy + Rock typing, the few I've seen running rock blast are probably because of the sub/roost Arti that has been mentioned above. Also Magneton deals pretty well against both Sheer Cold users while Snorlax can't really touch it unless it runs earthquake (not that magneton can do much back either).

 

[Raizr]

Hey guys I'm looking to use Jolteon (volt switch, baton pass, sub setup) but I'm not sure what EV Spread to use, I assume 252 speed is necessary but whether to put more into offense or HP alludes me, any advice?

 

[Vengeance417]

Don't use that:

Machamp
Ability: No Guard
- Dynamic Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Poison Jab
- Filler

Use this:

JOHN CENA (Machamp)
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
- Dynamic Punch
- Bullet Punch
- WWE Super Heavy Slam
- Filler

Heavy Slam does just as much to Clefable as Poison Jab does while also allowing you to smack Gengar on the switchin. Don't quote me on this, but I'm sure a combination of Stealth Rock, Heavy Slam and Bullet Punch has a chance of taking Gengar out.

Edit: some calcs:

252+ Atk Machamp Poison Jab vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 90-106 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Machamp Heavy Slam (80 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 90-106 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Machamp Heavy Slam (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 74-88 (55.2 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 38-45 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 95.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Tonio]

What is a good bulky pokemon who can handle physcical hits ? I struggle against Dragonite and Cloyster and don't see any solution for them :/ Anyone has a solution ?

 

[Blitz]

Physically Defensive Unaware Clefable should handle both of those just fine, but should be wary of Iron Head from Adamant Dragonite. You can even go further and cripple them 1v1 with Twave given that there's no Lum Berry to abuse in this format.

 

[Tonio]

I'm using Clefable but she can't deal with Iron Head Dragonite (espcially with flinches) and I can't switch her on Dragonite if I'm not full HP :/ I was thinking about Slowbro. Does it work well in the meta ?