Why Bullet Seed and not Seed Bomb?
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ORAS FU Metagame Discussion (old)
- Thread starter Gary
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There is no reason to use Bullet Seed over Seed Bomb. It already hits through Subs so the only possible reason Bullet would ever be more useful is to hit Sash Pokemon, but it's not like Sash Pokemon are that common anyway.
Plus if you get unlucky with bullet seed hits (like 2-3) you deal piss poor damage and your bulk doesn't allow you to take you any strong hit on jumpluff. Not worth it in any case at all.
I just love how we half a page of making fun of Bullet seed jumpluff lol.
As for the actual meta I would like to nominate Gabite to A- or B+ rank. Gabite is just... not that good anymore. dont get me wrong its still an decent mon to use, but it lacks a few things. Gabites biggest draw has always been the amounts of sets it can run decently. Scarf, Band, Lead and HC har are viable to some degree, But since Gabite is not the best is any of these (Fraxure is a better setup sweeper, Krokorok a better Scarfer etc), It feels more like a ''jack of all trades, master of none''. While its STABs are amazing, there are multiple of common pokemon which can switchin on either one of them, not to mention that Outrage (only viable STAB since Dragon claw is weak af) begs for a Steel/fairy switchin. The meta is really prepared for it, using shit like Lure Buzz, Random HP ice on things and Ice simple being a great typing to use in the tier period, with many top treaths being Ground, Grass or Dragon typed. Compared to other mons in A it is very unreliable at doing its job. Krokorok will ALWAYS (unless you're an idiot obv) cripple the hell out of the opponent team with Knock off, and it has a great match against other leads like Solrock and Gabite itself, Quilladin is almost unkillabe on the physical side thanks to its massive defense and will often set up spikes in the face of everything, Simisage and Ramparados destroy balance and Stall easily and Zweilious has an equally good STAB combp but hits WAY harder. I think most people here will understand what I mean when I say that Gabite has really fallen from grace
As for the actual meta I would like to nominate Gabite to A- or B+ rank. Gabite is just... not that good anymore. dont get me wrong its still an decent mon to use, but it lacks a few things. Gabites biggest draw has always been the amounts of sets it can run decently. Scarf, Band, Lead and HC har are viable to some degree, But since Gabite is not the best is any of these (Fraxure is a better setup sweeper, Krokorok a better Scarfer etc), It feels more like a ''jack of all trades, master of none''. While its STABs are amazing, there are multiple of common pokemon which can switchin on either one of them, not to mention that Outrage (only viable STAB since Dragon claw is weak af) begs for a Steel/fairy switchin. The meta is really prepared for it, using shit like Lure Buzz, Random HP ice on things and Ice simple being a great typing to use in the tier period, with many top treaths being Ground, Grass or Dragon typed. Compared to other mons in A it is very unreliable at doing its job. Krokorok will ALWAYS (unless you're an idiot obv) cripple the hell out of the opponent team with Knock off, and it has a great match against other leads like Solrock and Gabite itself, Quilladin is almost unkillabe on the physical side thanks to its massive defense and will often set up spikes in the face of everything, Simisage and Ramparados destroy balance and Stall easily and Zweilious has an equally good STAB combp but hits WAY harder. I think most people here will understand what I mean when I say that Gabite has really fallen from grace
Grant said he wanted to use the same cutoffs that were used last month from now on in FU because the PU usage stats are so volatile. Based off of that, the following changes happen:
Rises:
Grumpig
Luxray
Monferno
Mightyena
Meowstic-M (?_?)
Drops:
None
If it weren't for the different cutoffs there would be a ton of random changes that make no sense, like random things that are garbage in PU like Lapras and Ariados rising.
Rises:
Grumpig
Luxray
Monferno
Mightyena
Meowstic-M (?_?)
Drops:
None
If it weren't for the different cutoffs there would be a ton of random changes that make no sense, like random things that are garbage in PU like Lapras and Ariados rising.
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Monferno, wat? Is that thing better in PU than FU or is this just another example of weird-ass ladder stuff? The others are at least... vaguely understandable.
Damn I liked CM Meowstic, it was so good :'(
Grumpig leaving may shake some things quite a bit. For once no more gimmick Megahorn Rapidash. Offense also lost a good counter to Fire-types, and Articuno is even brokener now.
Luxray and especially Monferno were irrelevant, so I don't mind them leaving.
Grumpig leaving may shake some things quite a bit. For once no more gimmick Megahorn Rapidash. Offense also lost a good counter to Fire-types, and Articuno is even brokener now.
Luxray and especially Monferno were irrelevant, so I don't mind them leaving.
monferno is a decently popular suicide lead in PU because it has sr, taunt, blaze overheat, and is faster than every other sr setter in PU. It isn't amazing but it wasn't a completely unexpected rise.
Also just in case you saw my post before I edited it, Mightyena also rose to PU.
Damn that isn't something to forget :'(
Mightyena was so damn good. Murkrow is still the premier Dark-type but nothing can substitute doge on FU with Sucker Punch and good coverage. On the other hand, Psychic-types like Duosion and Hypno as well as Ghost-types may raise in viability. Lampent I can see being better since it can somewhat fulfill the roles of Grumpig.
| 115 | Dustox | 0.97180% | 500 | 0.751% | 410 | 0.759% |
| 116 | Abra | 0.92813% | 670 | 1.006% | 481 | 0.891% |
| 117 | Mienfoo | 0.90804% | 474 | 0.712% | 399 | 0.739% |
| 118 | Dedenne | 0.89441% | 1019 | 1.530% | 852 | 1.578% |
| 119 | Bellossom | 0.87118% | 703 | 1.056% | 565 | 1.047% |
| 120 | Yamask | 0.85676% | 497 | 0.746% | 432 | 0.800% |
| 121 | Quilava | 0.83324% | 602 | 0.904% | 471 | 0.872% |
| 122 | Noctowl | 0.81584% | 890 | 1.337% | 681 | 1.261% |
F*ck you people
Man just when I was starting to like Mightyena :[ (also no more Monferno4B rambling)
To quickly summerize a few ideas:
I can see LO murkrow becomming a lot more common now, as it has no competition as an offensive Dark type anymore.
Fire Spam is back, and with Rapidash on our side sun is probably going to be GODLIKE.
Buzz is now on every non stall team as the only other (good) electric type in the tier leaves.
Balance looses one of its best pokemon in Grumpig, which as before mentioned was the only real defensive mon holding Fire spam back. Arbok also finds more setup oppertunites.
EDIT: and ye outside of meta related things I would like the C rank to split into +/- because it kinda pisses me off c:
To quickly summerize a few ideas:
I can see LO murkrow becomming a lot more common now, as it has no competition as an offensive Dark type anymore.
Fire Spam is back, and with Rapidash on our side sun is probably going to be GODLIKE.
Buzz is now on every non stall team as the only other (good) electric type in the tier leaves.
Balance looses one of its best pokemon in Grumpig, which as before mentioned was the only real defensive mon holding Fire spam back. Arbok also finds more setup oppertunites.
EDIT: and ye outside of meta related things I would like the C rank to split into +/- because it kinda pisses me off c:
Lol I love how basically every tier above us had huge changes and drops, while FU lost a bunch of useless Pokemon like usual as well as two pretty decent ones, but not enough to really make a huge difference, although with Pig leaving Fire spam is dangerous asf and Cuno has one less hard counter, but the Grumpig hype was pretty recent and the meta seemed to do just fine before it got popular, so I doubt MUCH will change. Mightyena was good, but not enough to impact the tier in anyway. It was just a cleaner, a damn good one but outside of that it didn't really have much utility.
What's funny though is that if we decided to use the old method of 3.4% or lower, we would have gotten fucking Dodrio, Floatzel, Dusclops, and Carbink; the former three being titans in their respective roles while the latter is just kind of a cool utility Pokemon but it would have been nice. Dodrio would force every bulky offense team to run stuff like Lairon and Gigalith, while pretty much everything on offense is either 2HKOed or straight OHKOed by it. In fact Evio Buzz is easily OHKOed by a CB Double-Edge, and 2HKOed by Scarf, so I wouldn't even call that a reliable check. Dusclops is so fucking bulky it can actually sweep teams with just Night Shade alone. Floatzel was FU at one point early on, and while it wasn't broken to the point of something like Ursaring or Machoke, it was definitely an extremely dangerous Pokemon that murdered offensive teams, so I'm glad that thing didn't make a return either.
I think maybe next month we can go back the old 3.4%, but the PU ladder still just seems so random and unstable that it would cause a bunch of shit to rise and drop each month, which is dumb and I don't like a constantly changing meta when so much of the meta is still undiscovered lol.
Oh and Driftblim didn't drop back to FU like I was hoping for, so now I think we should just officially say it's PU now lol.
What's funny though is that if we decided to use the old method of 3.4% or lower, we would have gotten fucking Dodrio, Floatzel, Dusclops, and Carbink; the former three being titans in their respective roles while the latter is just kind of a cool utility Pokemon but it would have been nice. Dodrio would force every bulky offense team to run stuff like Lairon and Gigalith, while pretty much everything on offense is either 2HKOed or straight OHKOed by it. In fact Evio Buzz is easily OHKOed by a CB Double-Edge, and 2HKOed by Scarf, so I wouldn't even call that a reliable check. Dusclops is so fucking bulky it can actually sweep teams with just Night Shade alone. Floatzel was FU at one point early on, and while it wasn't broken to the point of something like Ursaring or Machoke, it was definitely an extremely dangerous Pokemon that murdered offensive teams, so I'm glad that thing didn't make a return either.
I think maybe next month we can go back the old 3.4%, but the PU ladder still just seems so random and unstable that it would cause a bunch of shit to rise and drop each month, which is dumb and I don't like a constantly changing meta when so much of the meta is still undiscovered lol.
Oh and Driftblim didn't drop back to FU like I was hoping for, so now I think we should just officially say it's PU now lol.
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How viable would a Hustle set be for Raticate be? The Guts set is forced to use Flame Orb or Toxic Orb, while Hustle Raticate is free to use a different item.
252 Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 128-152 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 166-198 (51.3 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You could also use Choice Band, but Crunch would have to replace Sucker Punch.
252 Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 128-152 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 166-198 (51.3 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You could also use Choice Band, but Crunch would have to replace Sucker Punch.
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I'm confused at the lack of LO here, as the recoil can be ignored, and when it isn't, it's for head smash, god of recoil moves. Just saying.
By the way, Baton-Pass a ninjask into that thing, and shred everything with your now super-speed and twice the already Godly attack Ramp had before.
Ninjask looks decently well in this meta.
Ninjask@Life Orb
Adamant Nature
Trait: Speed boost
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def
-Protect
-X-Scissor
-Night Slash
-Baton Pass
First turn Protect to get a Speed Boost up, then proceed to wreck decently. Baton Pass if needed to switch out.
Ninjask@Focus Sash
Jolly Nature
Trait: Speed boost
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def
-Protect
-Swords Dance
-Baton Pass
-X-Scissor
Standard Baton Pass set. Protect, then Swords Dance, then Baton Pass. X-Scissor just as a filler.
Calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jumpluff: 261-308 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gabite: 409-484 (147.6 - 174.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Fraxure: 387-458 (141.2 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 266-316 (62.7 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Electabuzz: 292-344 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Ninjask@Life Orb
Adamant Nature
Trait: Speed boost
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def
-Protect
-X-Scissor
-Night Slash
-Baton Pass
First turn Protect to get a Speed Boost up, then proceed to wreck decently. Baton Pass if needed to switch out.
Ninjask@Focus Sash
Jolly Nature
Trait: Speed boost
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def
-Protect
-Swords Dance
-Baton Pass
-X-Scissor
Standard Baton Pass set. Protect, then Swords Dance, then Baton Pass. X-Scissor just as a filler.
Calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jumpluff: 261-308 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gabite: 409-484 (147.6 - 174.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Fraxure: 387-458 (141.2 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 266-316 (62.7 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Electabuzz: 292-344 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
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Ninjask is already a decent mon to use in FU, but the offensive set you put up is pretty bad.
There is no reason to use Protect, as even with an adamant nature Ninjask outspeeds the entire unscarfed meta by a fair amount, Baton pass's only niche outside of U-turn is not getting damaged by gabites Rough skin, which is too minor to valid a spot on the set.
If you want an offenisve set run Choice band, as not only is it stronger, but it also runs Infiltrator, allowing it to revenge sub mons like Simipour and Gogoat easier.
Ninjask @ Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Aerial Ace
- Night Slash
- X-Scissor
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Aerial Ace
- Night Slash
- X-Scissor
Also those calcs are all unrealistic or plain stupid bar Regigigas (which is not common at all lol)
Defensive jumpluff is trash in FU, Fraxure is never seen without an eviolite, Gabite kills you through sash thanks to rough skin, and 252/252+ Electabuzz? no.
More realistic calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 132-156 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 177-208 (65.3 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Fraxure: 150-177 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumpluff: 338-398 (116.1 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And just to show that Ninjask is pretty weak anyways.
252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 93-111 (27 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Wartortle: 93-111 (28.8 - 34.4%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Lickitung: 97-115 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lairon: 49-58 (15.1 - 17.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock
Baton pass Ninjask is decent allright, but there are few reasons to run Speed pass when you just as easy run SmashPass with huntail, which not only has higher offensive and defensive presense, but can send its boosts into both special and physical sweepers AND is not destroyed by Stealth rock. Lets not forget that Huntail can also do CoilPass, making it fit into bulkier archetypes aswell.
Turn 1.Protect (free speed and scouting? Yes please)
Turn 2.Swords Dance (you're sashed right? Well this is almost guaranteed)
Turn 3.Protect again because Wynaut
(After this point, depending on what happened on the even turns, you may find the chance to SD again, but watch out for rock blast)
Turn4/7.Baton Pass to a Sheer Force Life Orb Rampardos.
Turns5/8-???.Sweep.
Yes I think we all know how to use BP Ninjask lol. Yellow Cheese is not doubting the effectiveness of SD BP Ninjask, he's just confused as to why you'd use Ninjask as a Baton Passer over something like Huntail which not only has a shit ton more offensive presence, but also the ability to pass to special attackers as well, while the purpose of Ninjask is to pass to physical attackers or just pass Speed boosts. Ninjask being 4x weak to SR also sucks because it limits how many times it can safely set up Subs and SDs without being put into a range where SR will kill it next time it comes in. SD Ninjask is also the most predictable Pokemon ever. As soon as you see that Protect, you immediately know what the opponent is trying to do. As long as you can keep Ninjask from keeping that Sub intact, you can easily punish what ever tries to get a free switch in. I mean yes in theory SD Speed boost pass to Rampardos sounds broken as fuck, but the chances of that happening often against a competent player is rare, and you're better off using CB Ninjask for its immediate power and revenge killing capabilities or BP Huntail for its offensive presence + ability to pass to special attackers and physical attackers.
Also SD Ninjask is a terrible sweeper too. It's not very strong, has no coverage moves outside of Night Slash and Steel Wing, and its strongest STAB move is only 75 BP, while its Flying STAB is a mere 60. Again, you'd find much better success with CB Ninjask.
Also just a thought why is Simipour higher than Simisage and Simisear?
EDIT: well actually not really. I suck at lower tiers. I'm more an OU/Uber kind of guy.
Sheesh I was just trying to prove that Ninjask beats Jumpluff and Electabuzz(Kind of) outright.
EDIT: well actually not really. I suck at lower tiers. I'm more an OU/Uber kind of guy.
Ninjask is only going to be relevant for the next 3 months anyway, I can't imagine it'll stay FU because Scyther rose from PU. Anyway, with the rise of Grumpig, I could see munchlax becoming relevant, although it appears to be unranked. I don't have any experience with it in FU, but I could see it fitting into B-/B rank with some options like curselax or whirlwind phazing with quilladin
First of all, I just want to clearify that the monkeys do different (but simular) things against different teams.
Simipour is higher than The other monkeys because its water typing is very powerful offensivly in FU, and it has the speed which Golduck and frogaider lack (101 is an amazing speed tier down here). Not only that, but it has perfect coverage in Hydro pump + Ice beam + HP grass (does more damage than grass knot on everything bar Whiscash, which is 2HKOed by LO hydro anyways) which opens the door for it to run whatever it wants on the 4th move. Knock off for utility, Scald for hax, NP for wallbreaking or Sub for protection. It can also run a effective Specs set for wallbreaking or a solid revenge set with scarf. Another big thing Simiour has that it can effectivly run a supSalac set which, if given the change,can clean most offensive teams right of the bat with little support thanks to the torrent boost.
Simisage, despite being a terrifying mixed attacker and the worst nightmare of any stall team, it relies to heavy on its main STAB (Leaf storm), which is pissweak at -2, and it is predictable, IT is also very easy to revenge kill as many popular revengekillers like Rapidash and Ninjask have SE STAB moves on it. It also has competition with Sawsbuck, which sacrifises mixed ability and speed for a powerdul secondary STAB, sap sipper and Swords dance.
Simsear on the otherhand has a massive problem with Rapidash being super common and makes Scarf/Specs simisear a very risky pokemon to use. SubNP is still very treathening but has to rely on the highly unaccurate Focus blast for hitting Rock types. It also has problems breaking Tortle/Pingu, which rapidash on the other hand can easily deal with.
As for the ''i suck at lower tiers, I'm more an OU/Uber kind of guy''-comment, dont use that, it gives you a bad image in the lower tiers and make us look bad for not interesting you. I'm not exactly a god myself at FU like Don is, but I still know what everything does and how the meta works. Dont be afraid to lurk, it is pretty much the only thing I do in the other tiers atm.
Just to go with the above, I kinda shy away from OU simply due to the absence of fast water types and the awful speed creep ORAS made for every tier. The lower tiers are all cool, especially FU and RU, with the great diversity of pokemon to use.
Oh btw if you want to play FU on a ladder go to the Frost server. There's not many battles going on, but now that you know, we can hopefully get some traffic going there. Here's the link to the server, although everyone should know what Frost is lol.
http://frost.psim.us/
http://frost.psim.us/
FU looks like a really interesting metagame. Lots of things you'd never see seriously used in another tier but that can really excel in a specific niche given a metagame that's kind enough to them. I put together an offensive team and queued on the ladder for four or five hours but didn't have any luck finding a game. The ladder seems to think it hasn't had any matches so far which does make me wonder whether it's broken or something. Hopefully we can get the IRC a little more active and get some test games going via that at least. There's only so far you can theorymon.
This thread is so dead now it's not even funny
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