ORAS FU Metagame Discussion (old)

[Don Honchkrorleone]

Opinion time! So time to put my thoughts on one specific Pokemon to suspect:

Ursaring is broken and everyone knows it. Get that shit out of the tier. Ursaring is poisonous and unhealthy for the FU metagame. It makes offense, balance and stall a liability by being very strong, bulky and somewhat status "immune". I'll explain briefly the three since I want to take a shit. Bear has 4 sets: 2 everyone uses, and one I use, and it's a pain for playstyles to deal with it but much more to discover it.

How Ursaring fucks Offense: Considering it outspeeds everything relevant up to Jumpluff, this is a good start. Hyper Offense lacking something like Persian, Non-Stored Power Swoobat or a strong scarfer (although I don't know if any good scarfer bar Rampardos can OHKO Ursaring) / good priority user like Mightyena, although the bear needs to be weakened, can beat it. It lives a CB Ninjask X-Scissor and detroys it. Fraxure can't kill with prior damage since 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ursaring: 256-302 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage and is destroyed back by a Façade. Not to mention, if it's paired with Scarf Chimecho something it's pretty much gg. It pretty much unviabilizes offense the same way or worse than Fraxure. You must use Bulky Offense, but Ursaring is also a hole puncher, and a damn good one. Weather offense can deal with it a bit easier but nothing will want to switch in, and losing especially weather setters is not a very good thing.

Ursaring @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Crunch
- Close Combat / Earthquake
- Protect / Swords Dance

This fucks everything offense has. Everything. Good luck if your scarfer is gone and you sweeper isn't active yet, you'll need it. No need to explain lol, everyone here must have seen and cried at this set.

How Ursaring fucks Balance: Same as how it fucks offense, unless it foregoes SD for Protect, in which case dealing with it is easier. BUT trying to guess that is an unhealthy 50/50, and a wrong guess against Ursaring costs games. Not only about moveslots but about abilities as well!

Ursaring @ Toxic Orb (don't use Flame Orb)
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Crunch
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat

The ability change is a blessing because it forces the guessing game even more. A wrong guess is a blessing for Ursaring, as a switch into Quilladin / Hippopotas / Marshtomp / Vullaby and they're all ded. When Balance loses their precious bulky Pokemon, it'll be harder to play against other powerful Pokemon such as Fraxure, Kingler, etc.

How Ursaring fucks Stall: Protect is dealt with ease, and SD can be worked around. But:

Ursaring @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Crunch
- Swords Dance
- Taunt

This kills stalls. Amazingly. No one uses it tho, which is a shame because it fucks Balance and Offense too. It is a disgusting set that unles your opponent uses Protect and priority every time on Stall, everything will be ogre soon (Protect may miss and opponent won't be able to keep switching every time). Stall-common Pokemon such as Lapras, Spritzee, Clefairy and Hippopotas and co are gracefully killed by a +2 Facade as well as stopped cold by Taunt (except on Spritzee's case). Things like Lairon and Magcargo are easily dealt by teammates.

Conclusion:

I'll post later about the sure suspects.

 

[HOTSHOCK]

The Bear + Rat Core is also pretty good at fucking up everything

 

[About 7 Kidz]

I mean i know its not a permanent solution but you can always run Protect on something for chip damage which is OK. But I do find myself sacking a mon when i see a ursaring..

 

[RawMelon]

Yeah in this meta I always have to run either a scarfer and save them for late game or mightyena revenge to beat Ursaring. I mean there are other creative ways to beat it but does limit team options a lot.

 

[Gary]

Just decided to make a separate post because I wont be double posting anymore so there's no reason not to. Anyways here are the major ranking changes:

Murkrow A+ to S: A lot of people don't use Murkrow for some reason, and it's a damn shame. Not only is it extremely versatile, being able to pull off multiple offensive sets, defensive sets, stallbreaking sets, and sweeping sets, but it's one of those amazing glue Pokemon that can fit on a bunch of teams in order to patch up their weaknesses. With an Eviolite it's very bulky, and with proper investment it's nearly impossible to OHKO without a strong super effective move. Its arguably best set; CM / Dark Pulse / Roost / Taunt is an oustanding cleaner that is walled only by Clef, Spritzee, and Scraggy which no one really uses. Prankster Taunt allows it to shutdown even the fastest Taunt users such as Persian, while it also prevents defensive Pokemon carrying Toxic or Thunder Wave from crippling it. LO Krow is also a really cool set that can check pretty much any boosting sweeper in the game thanks to Prankster T-Wave. It's just an outstanding Pokemon that can preform multiple roles very effectively and fits on a lot of teams; the definition of an S rank Pokemon. It's really sad no one uses this thing lol.

Gogoat S to A+: Gogoat is one of the most dependable Pokemon in the tier simply because as an offensive tank, it does its job so well. However, the metagame is extremely over prepared for it at the moment, seeing as how Arbok and Viper are two of the best offensive Pokemon right now and they proceed to shit all over it. There's also Murkrow, Ninjask, Fraxure, Rapidash, Sub SD Sawsbuck, Gunk Shot Simisage, Simisear, Gourgeist-S, and Jumpluff. Still, Gogoat is a very strong, bulky offensive Pokemon with array of coverage options that limits what can switch into it and check it reliably. Why everyone uses the extremely subpar Sub BU set is beyond me, but the LO 3 attacks set with Milk Drink or just LO 4 attacks is incredibly dangerous. Gogoat is still a very solid Pokemon, but it seems less superior to the titans in S. But no seriously, please stop using Sub BU it's so bad right now.

Raticate A to A+: Raticate has always been an amazing Pokemon, but with bulky offense on the heavy rise, Raticate only gets better for its ability to wallbreak. It's also an incredible partner to use alongside Ursaring. If bear is ever banned in the future rat may fall back to A, but as it stands now its ability to completely destroy bulky offense as well as cleaning up offensive teams alongside Ursaring makes it worthy of a jump.

Zweilous A+ to A: Eviolite Zweilous is really good at the moment, but unfortunately there's just so much that can take advantage of it and outspeed it that it has a lot of trouble doing as much work as it used it. Factor in its slightly unreliable accuracy problem as well as its subpar movepool and dependence on RestTalk for recovery. Very solid Pokemon, but not on par with the other A+ Pokemon.

Other ranking changes:

Jumpluff A- to B+
Lairon B+ to A-
Metang A to A-
Mightyena B+ to A-
Grumpig B to B+
Linoone B to B+
Servine added to B+
Wigglytuff B to B+
Fearow B+ to B
Noctowl B- to B
Meowstic-F B- to B
Whirlipede B- to B
Furfrou added to B-
Scraggy B+ to B-
Unfezant B to B-
Lampent C to B-
Anorith added to C
Sandshrew added to C
Tentacool added to C
Lickitung added to C
Magmar added to C
Snover B- to C

 

[Hipster doofus]

IMO Duosion deserves to be ranked at least. Personally, I've never used it myself so I can't really provide any sets but it can be a pain in the ass with its calm mind set. Just surprised that it's not ranked at all, I would put it at C.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

seconding the likes of Don (fuck you I was almost done with my post too)
I also want to add that All of the sets Don posted, while being best against the styles he mentioned, all are able too put massive holes into other archetypes. Seriously If yuo want o deal with this thing you need too sacrifice one pokemon Minimum, as there is not a single pokemon in the iter (bar like Metang) which can avoid the 2HKO from an Ursaring. Hell, if metang is out of the picture it does not even need the SD to destroy Stall, as you pretty much 2HKO everything in it with STAB alone. The only problem it has is with longactivity, but a secondary sweeper (like fraxure) or Scarf Chimecho is super easy to slap on a team to clean later.

Also DD Fraxure + QF Ursaring is so extremly terrifying against pretty much every archetype its not even funny

The post I was going to post myself:
If there Is one pokemon that is ''meta breaking'' as of now, it has to be Ursaring.

Ursaring is a major pain for both offensive and defensive teams alike. 130 base attack with a STAB 140BP move and an efficient speed of 107 (Quick feet) speaks for itself. Ursaring does not only dent common bulky pokemon like Clefable and Gogoat, but also has the speed and power to plow trough many of the pokemon who reside in FUs offensive builds. notably outspeeding and OHKOing all the monkeys and Electabuzz with STAB alone. Close combat/Earthquake with Hazard support also plows through common Normal counters like Lairon and Gigalith. Crunch is you best final option, hitting Gourgeist, which walls you if not. If you feel Like it you can run SD, which making you OHKO EVERYTHING or mabye even taunt(?)

.107 speed is very high by FU standards, only scarfers and a handfull of pokemon outspeed it. as for scarfers it surives Outrage from Gabite, which is a testiment to its bulk. as for the few pokemon who outspeed: Jumpluff cant do much as Arco does less than half and CB U-turn from Ninjask does not kill. Persian can somewhat check it however, as Silk scarf Fake out + return does 83% minimum, so with only a little prior damage it can revenge it. So that means Ursaring has only one (not gimmicky) Check in the entire tier, and even that one is unreliable.

TL;DR verison: URSARING HAS NO COUNTERS AND ONLY ONE NOT GIMMICKY CHECK

 

[Clarisaxx22]

Just decided to make a separate post because I wont be double posting anymore so there's no reason not to. Anyways here are the major ranking changes:

Murkrow A+ to S: A lot of people don't use Murkrow for some reason, and it's a damn shame. Not only is it extremely versatile, being able to pull off multiple offensive sets, defensive sets, stallbreaking sets, and sweeping sets, but it's one of those amazing glue Pokemon that can fit on a bunch of teams in order to patch up their weaknesses. With an Eviolite it's very bulky, and with proper investment it's nearly impossible to OHKO without a strong super effective move. Its arguably best set; CM / Dark Pulse / Roost / Taunt is an oustanding cleaner that is walled only by Clef, Spritzee, and Scraggy which no one really uses. Prankster Taunt allows it to shutdown even the fastest Taunt users such as Persian, while it also prevents defensive Pokemon carrying Toxic or Thunder Wave from crippling it. LO Krow is also a really cool set that can check pretty much any boosting sweeper in the game thanks to Prankster T-Wave. It's just an outstanding Pokemon that can preform multiple roles very effectively and fits on a lot of teams; the definition of an S rank Pokemon. It's really sad no one uses this thing lol.

Gogoat S to A+: Gogoat is one of the most dependable Pokemon in the tier simply because as an offensive tank, it does its job so well. However, the metagame is extremely over prepared for it at the moment, seeing as how Arbok and Viper are two of the best offensive Pokemon right now and they proceed to shit all over it. There's also Murkrow, Ninjask, Fraxure, Rapidash, Sub SD Sawsbuck, Gunk Shot Simisage, Simisear, Gourgeist-S, and Jumpluff. Still, Gogoat is a very strong, bulky offensive Pokemon with array of coverage options that limits what can switch into it and check it reliably. Why everyone uses the extremely subpar Sub BU set is beyond me, but the LO 3 attacks set with Milk Drink or just LO 4 attacks is incredibly dangerous. Gogoat is still a very solid Pokemon, but it seems less superior to the titans in S. But no seriously, please stop using Sub BU it's so bad right now.

Raticate A to A+: Raticate has always been an amazing Pokemon, but with bulky offense on the heavy rise, Raticate only gets better for its ability to wallbreak. It's also an incredible partner to use alongside Ursaring. If bear is ever banned in the future rat may fall back to A, but as it stands now its ability to completely destroy bulky offense as well as cleaning up offensive teams alongside Ursaring makes it worthy of a jump.

Zweilous A+ to A: Eviolite Zweilous is really good at the moment, but unfortunately there's just so much that can take advantage of it and outspeed it that it has a lot of trouble doing as much work as it used it. Factor in its slightly unreliable accuracy problem as well as its subpar movepool and dependence on RestTalk for recovery. Very solid Pokemon, but not on par with the other A+ Pokemon.

Other ranking changes:

Jumpluff A- to B+
Lairon B+ to A-
Metang A to A-
Mightyena B+ to A-
Grumpig B to B+
Linoone B to B+
Servine added to B+
Wigglytuff B to B+
Fearow B+ to B
Noctowl B- to B
Meowstic-F B- to B
Whirlipede B- to B
Furfrou added to B-
Scraggy B+ to B-
Unfezant B to B-
Lampent C to B-
Anorith added to C
Sandshrew added to C
Tentacool added to C
Lickitung added to C
Magmar added to C
Snover B- to C

Can someone tell me how butt head magmar and Fucking Sandshrew made it to C rank

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

Can someone tell me how butt head magmar and Fucking Sandshrew made it to C rank

Sandshrew is a bad but still usable Spinner if your team can't afford Wartortle or isn't offense to fit Lord Anorith. It's an alright but shaky check to Buzz that can spin. Not good, but has its niche, I guess. Magmar on C I can't answer why though. Probably because of Belly Drum but idk.

Anyway regarding the three suspects.

Fraxure: Fraxure is still broken and needs to go as much as it needed in Machoke/Webs era. It still sets up very easily on half of the metagame, has taunt to fuck walls, good coverage, makes revenge-killing a NEED often sacking 1-2 pokemon in process, forces people to use the incredibly awful physically defensive Metang, is bulky and powerful, and etc. Also it creates mindgames with Taunt and is a reason why I use a Fairy + Lairon on 80% of my teams.

Kingler: Kingler was never broken to begin with, and with webs gone it's so damn slow. Sure it breaks EVERYTHING with Swords Dance, but it's so easy to revenge kill with anything special. Agility sets without SD lack power to break through common walls. SubSalac is awesome but again it needs the right Pokemon to be on opposing field to be able to sweep. Don't get me wrong, Kingler is still and will always be incredible, but it's not S for a very good reason, and therefore not banworthy

Sticky Web: Uhhh... How are we supposed to vote on it? Will we allow it then vote or just let the biased voters vote yes/no like the last time? I'd say hold on till the February shift to reintroduce Sticky Web and see once and for all if it's broken or not.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Murkrow A+ to S: A lot of people don't use Murkrow for some reason, and it's a damn shame. Not only is it extremely versatile, being able to pull off multiple offensive sets, defensive sets, stallbreaking sets, and sweeping sets, but it's one of those amazing glue Pokemon that can fit on a bunch of teams in order to patch up their weaknesses. With an Eviolite it's very bulky, and with proper investment it's nearly impossible to OHKO without a strong super effective move. Its arguably best set; CM / Dark Pulse / Roost / Taunt is an oustanding cleaner that is walled only by Clef, Spritzee, and Scraggy which no one really uses. Prankster Taunt allows it to shutdown even the fastest Taunt users such as Persian, while it also prevents defensive Pokemon carrying Toxic or Thunder Wave from crippling it. LO Krow is also a really cool set that can check pretty much any boosting sweeper in the game thanks to Prankster T-Wave. It's just an outstanding Pokemon that can preform multiple roles very effectively and fits on a lot of teams; the definition of an S rank Pokemon. It's really sad no one uses this thing lol.

Definitivly agree. Krow is a massive pain in the buttocks for offensive teams atm, and the stallbreaking/support set shouts down most of the tiers Set up sweepers, but also multiple walls thanks to taunt. SubCM is a great WinCon in every archetype, and absolutly desimates balance. LO is kinda niche, but I love it fro its strong priority and strong flying attack (hits about as hard as Jolly Talon) in a tier wheerr flying spam is GOD. and Prankster T-wave is a no-brainer

Gogoat S to A+: Gogoat is one of the most dependable Pokemon in the tier simply because as an offensive tank, it does its job so well. However, the metagame is extremely over prepared for it at the moment, seeing as how Arbok and Viper are two of the best offensive Pokemon right now and they proceed to shit all over it. There's also Murkrow, Ninjask, Fraxure, Rapidash, Sub SD Sawsbuck, Gunk Shot Simisage, Simisear, Gourgeist-S, and Jumpluff. Still, Gogoat is a very strong, bulky offensive Pokemon with array of coverage options that limits what can switch into it and check it reliably. Why everyone uses the extremely subpar Sub BU set is beyond me, but the LO 3 attacks set with Milk Drink or just LO 4 attacks is incredibly dangerous. Gogoat is still a very solid Pokemon, but it seems less superior to the titans in S. But no seriously, please stop using Sub BU it's so bad right now.

Agreed, I would even agree on moving goat down to A-rank. I find Everything bar the LO Milkdrink set Don Honchkrorleone loves so much to be very underwelming. Every team is well pretared for it, and its meh Physical defense makes it a easy target for strong physical attackers like Fearow, CB Ninjask and Ursaring.

Raticate A to A+: Raticate has always been an amazing Pokemon, but with bulky offense on the heavy rise, Raticate only gets better for its ability to wallbreak. It's also an incredible partner to use alongside Ursaring. If bear is ever banned in the future rat may fall back to A, but as it stands now its ability to completely destroy bulky offense as well as cleaning up offensive teams alongside Ursaring makes it worthy of a jump.

No real opinion

Zweilous A+ to A: Eviolite Zweilous is really good at the moment, but unfortunately there's just so much that can take advantage of it and outspeed it that it has a lot of trouble doing as much work as it used it. Factor in its slightly unreliable accuracy problem as well as its subpar movepool and dependence on RestTalk for recovery. Very solid Pokemon, but not on par with the other A+ Pokemon.

Agreed, after Sticky web got banned the band set lost most of its viability imo, Eviolite is still pretty good but nothing special, hustle is a bitch and RestTalk is unreliable af. if the hax gods are against you then Zwei becomes more or less deadweight for your team aswell. I find its preformance to be unreliable but still good, as it has some key resistances and its weaknesses are not extremely common as STAB in FU. Solid A

Jumpluff A- to B+ - agreed, Sleep i unreliable and it cant break important things like vullaby or Metang
Lairon B+ to A- - agreed again. Eviolite is extremely bulky while CB hits hard af with head smash
Metang A to A- - Drop to B+. it is too easy to wear down and it cannot counter some important treaths it should be able too (Ursaring and Gabite come to mind)
Mightyena B+ to A- - Disagrees. While Dank STAB is amazing in FU, Mightyena just lacks the speed to beat some important mons. Sucker is easy to play around and the fangs are pretty weak.
Grumpig B to B+ . no opinion
Linoone B to B+ - YES. Linoone often find multiple oppertunites to set up BD thanks to the passive nature of defensive pokemon in the tier, and CB sets are suprisingly good with spike stacking
Servine added to B+ - Looks OK, but I have no experience with it.
Wigglytuff B to B+ - Don convinced me that this was good. I agree
Fearow B+ to B - I dont see it as often and without Band its weak af. I dont mind the drop
Noctowl B- to B - Yet again a mon that Don has opened my mind on. It fits in on both balance and defensive teams and does not need its item at all. I want it uo to B+
Meowstic-F B- to B - no opinion
Whirlipede B- to B - Disagree. Whirl is shit, taunt compleatly shuts it down and it has piss poor defensive typing and offensive stats. Looses to every Defogger in the tier too. Move down to C
Furfrou added to B- - Agreed. Band sets are meh ut the RestTalk ahs some merit on defensive builds
Scraggy B+ to B- - Both BU and DD sound bad, but no opinion
Unfezant B to B- - Im OK with this, it needs band to wallbreak and is revenged really easily. also coverage is ass
Lampent C to B- - Sounds good. Lampent is a very underated, but good mon in the tier. Ghost is precious and flash fire lets you switch in on Choice simi and choice dash. Hardwalls buck too.
Anorith added to C - wtf does this thing do?
Sandshrew added to C - it is too niche for this, drop to D
Tentacool added to C - Agreed, I actually want it up to B-. Cood defensive typing and the sp.def to deal with quite a few special attackers. Tspikes are sweet aswell
Lickitung added to C - No opinion
Magmar added to C - I dont see any reason to use ths\is over Simisear or Dash
Snover B- to C - While Hail is strong and all, Snover is pretty bad on its own and I fully agree with it dropping.


The other suspects:
Fraxure: while it can now be revenged, it is still a monster against both offensive and defensive teams alike. I dont mind it getting banned but I think I can live with it staying, as a big part of the teams you face today will be prepared for this thing. (if Webs come back ban this thing ASAP)

Kingler: It has to choose between breaking stall and breaking offense, and any mon which uses special moves destroy it. I dont see this being broken even if Webs return.

Sticky Web: if Fraxure and Ursaring leaves, then I wont mind this comming back, but if they stay I for some odd reason I dont want it back.

 

[glock in my toyota]

Anorith added to C - wtf does this thing do?

youd honestly be surprised to see how well this thing functions as an offensive spinner, boasting Priority in Aqua Jet, Knock Off, and a powerful STAB in X-Scissor or Rock Slide. Its speedtier isnt bad, hitting 248 with an adamant nature, and it has a base 95 attack stat, so it isnt a total pushover. Its like the only good offensive spinner in FU atm, and I actually like it alot.

 

[mediocremon]

Sandshrew is a bad but still usable Spinner if your team can't afford Wartortle or isn't offense to fit Lord Anorith. It's an alright but shaky check to Buzz that can spin. Not good, but has its niche, I guess. Magmar on C I can't answer why though. Probably because of Belly Drum but idk.

Anyway regarding the three suspects.

Fraxure: Fraxure is still broken and needs to go as much as it needed in Machoke/Webs era. It still sets up very easily on half of the metagame, has taunt to fuck walls, good coverage, makes revenge-killing a NEED often sacking 1-2 pokemon in process, forces people to use the incredibly awful physically defensive Metang, is bulky and powerful, and etc. Also it creates mindgames with Taunt and is a reason why I use a Fairy + Lairon on 80% of my teams.

Kingler: Kingler was never broken to begin with, and with webs gone it's so damn slow. Sure it breaks EVERYTHING with Swords Dance, but it's so easy to revenge kill with anything special. Agility sets without SD lack power to break through common walls. SubSalac is awesome but again it needs the right Pokemon to be on opposing field to be able to sweep. Don't get me rowng, Kingler is still and will always be incredible, but it's not S for a very good reason, and therefore not banworthy

Sticky Web: Uhhh... How are we supposed to vote on it? Will we allow it then vote or just let the biased voters vote yes/no like the last time? I'd say hold on till the February shift to reintroduce Sticky Web and see once and for all if it's broken or not.

Fraxure and Kingler DO NOT DESERVE A BAN.

Active on the ladder(currently with 2 accs over top 30 and 1 over top 8... not bragging since I dont think the ladder means nothing just to make sure that im no random posting this)
They sure are great but they dont deserve the ban hammer. We need stallbreaker's in the tier(we have ursaring to which is more broken than Kingler if you ask me since after a 2+ almost all the tier dies) Pokemon sucks like Quilladin or any bulky water(using scald for the burn chance) stopping Kingler and any type of fairy or even articuno stopping Fraxure. Also we can't forget about that scarfer that every team runs...

And we should retest web again. In February :]

 

[HOTSHOCK]

I'm happy Mightyena's getting recognition!

 

[Yuelia]

and any type of fairy or even articuno stopping Fraxure.

252 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 216-254 (79.1 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 300-354 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after no hazards

Yeah, good luck with that. Unless you want to use Modest Scarfcuno, you really aren't switching it in on the DDance and getting off unscathed. And if you're using Modest Scarfcuno, isn't that a hint that maybe Frax is overcentralizing af?

Yes, it can't run everything in one set. But the thing is, the advantage is always with the Fraxure user. It chooses what it wants to kill, and its user is the only one that knows for sure what it loses to. Maybe it doesn't have Iron Tail to hit your Wigglytuff, but guess what, you don't know that. It gets in for free, it kills something and usually multiple somethings. By the time you figure out that it doesn't have that coverage move, generally it's already done its job.

I've said it before and I'll probably say it again: ban this thing.

(oh and ban Ursaring too, I'd write paras on that but I don't think it's remotely controversial at this point, lol)

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

Fraxure and Kingler DO NOT DESERVE A BAN.

They sure are great but they dont deserve the ban hammer. We need stallbreaker's in the tier(we have ursaring to which is more broken than Kingler if you ask me since after a 2+ almost all the tier dies) Pokemon sucks like Quilladin or any bulky water(using scald for the burn chance) stopping Kingler and any type of fairy or even articuno stopping Fraxure. Also we can't forget about that scarfer that every team runs...

Tier still have a ton of Stallbreakers, and FU doesn't have stupidly unbreakable walls/core like Inverse with ChansLugg or RU with Cresselia. Also the fact that Frax forces EVERY team to run physically defensive stuff is a banworthy argument since it limits offense. Good luck not using a 252/252+ max on an offensive team. I want to use HO again without resorting to dumb shit like Scarf Gabite to revenge kill it. Hell, at least Ursaring is defeated by Persian, which is the closest thing classifiable as offensive check to it, and Persian is pretty sweet, while Fraxure has the situational (imo) Scarf Articuno. Not even Scarf Sawsbuck can reliably kill it.

Also I'll ask for suspecting Murkrow again and posting my reasoning on the first suspect here. I wouldn't mind it not banned but I still think it's unhealthy asf.

Reasoning for voting BAN on Murkrow. tl;dr ahead

Murkrow: Ban

Murkrow is broken because of Prankster period. It's not funny to play against on offense or stall depending on the set, and seriously every team is weak to Murkrow in some way or another. Don't bring the "IT'S BUZZ WEAK HURR DURR" because Murkrow can play around it depending on the team. I'll explain it more.

Murkrow has 4 sets that I used/saw so far. Offensive LO, Calm Mind, Defensive Stallbreaker and Homoaffective. Each of this sets has has specific niches, counters and checks tham makes impossible fully counters exist. I'll start with the least broken imo, Offensive LO. Murkrow is very strong with base 91 and STAB Sucker Punch and Brave Bird, but priority Thunder Wave is what really makes this set shine, otherwise it'd be a mediocre Fearow/Unfezant. Priority Thunder Wave rapes offense in the worst of ways unless opponent has Buzz or a Ground-type, the former is hit hard by Sucker Punch and can be killed if worn down significantly. The latter, mainly Krok and Gabite, are destroyed. Krok can't switch in BB and is also 2HKOed by Sucker Punch may it lock itself on Pursuit/Knock Off. Gabite also can't switch directly into Brave Bird, and to kill Murkrow must lock itself into Outrage, as Dragon claw will be a close call. On either instance, Murkrow weakened them to the point of something like Electabuzz, Seviper, Persian, Apes or Mightyena clean the rest of the game. This set is a bit easier to deal because it doesn't really threaten recovery stall. The best counters to this set is simply wear it down with defensive Pokemon, or fast ones with Sub, especially those that either are immune to T-Wave or that are already statused to begin with and have priority, such as Raticate. Fake Out also helps weakenning Murkrow down, but in a spikes fiield Fake Out users will be severely limited in when to come in.

Murkrow's second set, and the more honestly devastating, is the CM set. Dark Pulse is a great STAB but Murkrow can also run HP Flying. It's surprisingly extremely bulky from physical side, and Roost adds annoyance. The last move destroys a style Murkrow wants to fuck up with, with prio Twave raping offense and prio Taunt shitting on Stall. Murkrow's counters vary from the LO set to this. Krokorok's Stone Edge is only a 3HKO, and can be outstalled with Roost. Electabuzz can't come into a Murkrow that is already +2, as 252 SpA Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. +2 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 156-186 (48.2 - 57.5%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO), while Murkrow 2HKOes it with Dark Pulse, Roosting to halve the Tbolt's power and then getting enough health to KO the electric ape. Spritzee, though immune to Taunt, can only break Murkrow with Toxic or Moonblast hax, and Clefairy is even more succeptible to Taun. Both don't like HP Flying. The best answer to this murkrow would be a full health Lairon since Head Smash has a chance to OHKO, and Twave won't cripple it for the rest of the game, unlike something like Rampardos. Whiscash also comes close, but can be 2HKOed by a +2 Dark Pulse, and needs LO to do significant damage, even when boosted. Taunt-less variants are also weak to Clef and stall in general, while Twave-less are more prone to fast and strong revenge-killers. Very Bulky Ice-types with Frost Breath also hurt this set.

The third set is a mix of the two fourth moves of CM set. Stallbreaker Taunt/Twave/Roost/Foul Play. This set shits on bulky offense and on Webs teams because Murkrow will be faster than Guts Ursaring and Kingler, and Foul Play is destructive. Taunt is a no-no to stall and some balanced walls such as Quilladin and Gourgeist. Murkrow can even afford to not Foul Play and use Toxic only, though an attacking move is recommended. This set is a pain for offense to deal with, as it can also be specially defensive (252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 166-198 (51.3 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Murkrow 2HKOes with Foul Play after LO damage), and requires heavy set-up sweepers to deal with, while stall requires Clefairy and Spritzee to beat it.

The fourth is broken and gay. Thunder Wave/CONFUSE RAY/Roost/something else. God, I hate this set. Think Machoke, but with recovery. This set needs to fucking go. It can't really harm stall but it fucks offense more than anything else. Confuse Ray will turn the game into a fucking gamble, and not even fucking Lum can prevent it since it's two stats (waste Lum with confusion then get paralyzed). You can easily lose 6-0 against this uncompetitive piece of shit, it's so fucking dumb. Murkrow can even use Whirlwind on the last slot to Parashuffle and add to the annoyance.

All problems with all Murkrow sets lie on Prankster, and is single-handed the most fearsome thing for offense to ever face. If not packing a Murkrow counter, which resumes basically to Lairon and nothing else (especially the homoaffective set). It can manipulate its sets to be a pain and a guessng game, kinda like what Aegislash was with the trying to guess if physical, special, or SubToxic. Murkrow harms the tier, there is no way to fullly prepare to it unless using own Murkrow with Taunt. That's why I think Murkrow should get the boot.

EDIT: 800th post :]

 

[Ares]

Pignite Unranked ==> C / B-

So with the recent release of Thick Fat this thing originally caught my eye in NU, but looking at the rankings recently in FU I was surprised to see that it was unranked. Now you might be asking yourself, "what exactly does Pignite do?
Well it pretty much does it all, boasting an extensive offensive movepool as well as a decently full support move pool, Pignite can run a variety of sets from offensive beast to rest talk specially defensive tank. With its ability, Thick Fat, Pignite is able to check Choice Banded Rapidash and Heatmor. Pignite's offensive capabilities make it extremely unpredictable and warrant being moved from unranked to at the very least C, I would like B- but I would settle with C.

Offensive Movepool:
Fire Blast, Fire Punch, Flamethrower, Flare Blitz, Focus Blast, Focus Punch, Grass Knot, Head Smash, Low Kick, Poison Jab, Rock Slide, Stone Edge, Sucker Punch, Superpower, Wild Charge, Zen Headbutt

Support Movepool:
Endeavor, Protect, Rest, Roar, Sleep Talk, Substitute, Taunt, Toxic, Will-O-Wisp, Yawn

Sample Set:

KidBearPig (Pignite) @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 176 HP / 252 Atk / 80 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Grass Knot
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower

Flare Blitz obviously lets you destroy things as Pignite's main STAB move, Grass Knot for Marshtomp and Prinplup as well as other water switchins, Sucker Punch for priority, and Superpower for a secondary STAB.

Now I haven't gotten to much time to test and experiment with Pignite, cause I could literally make dozens of different sets, but this one has been working out pretty well so far. Not claiming its the best set / coverage moves, just giving you a place to start at if you wanna test out KidBearPig.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Flare Blitz obviously lets you destroy things as Pignite's main STAB move, Grass Knot for Marshtomp and Prinplup as well as other water switchins, Sucker Punch for priority, and Superpower for a secondary STAB.

eeeeh
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Marshtomp: 80-96 (23.2 - 27.9%) -- 72.9% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Marshtomp: 116-140 (33.7 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Prinplup: 26-32 (7.8 - 9.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Prinplup: 36-44 (10.8 - 13.2%) -- possible 8HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Wartortle: 36-44 (11.1 - 13.6%) -- possible 8HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Wartortle: 24-30 (7.4 - 9.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Huntail: 82-98 (32.6 - 39%) -- 9.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Simipour: 94-112 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Kingler: 166-196 (65.8 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Only 2HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Lapras: 106-126 (26.3 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Whiscash: 116-140 (28.7 - 34.6%) -- 4.6% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seaking: 78-94 (21.4 - 25.8%) -- 2% chance to 4HKO



Good job on breaking those :]

 

[Skankovich]

Drifblim really needs a rank, its a great and versatile sweeper and cleaner that, due to only needing minimal speed investment due to good base speed+unburden, is quite bulky and can can set up on a lot of stuff. SubCM with sitrus is a lovely sweeper with great coverage (I like to run HP Fighting for that perfect neutral, but thunderbolt is a good option too), RestCM is similar with an easier time setting up but can't avoid priority/status post unburden. There's other sets like endure+weakness policy that can abuse both STABs with its good mixed attacking stats, and can afford to run cool stuff in the last slot like baton pass, sucker punch and destiny bond. High B ranks maybe?

On the subject of suspects people have brought up:

Ursaring: Yeah this molests literally every playstyle, please leave.

Fraxure: Slightly less broken than the above, but it has enough raw power and unpredictable coverage behind it to make it difficult for defensive playstyles to handle, and a good enough speed that offensive playstyles certainly struggle at +1. Should probably go imo.

Kingler: Nah this is fine, pretty slow and doesn't hit hard enough after agility to 1hko bulkier shit like articuno or gogoat. Swords Dance is a threat to stall but it has enough answers to be manageable.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

So I've been messing around with a Kingler lure which does not loose against some socalled counters

Kingler @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 232 Atk / 24 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off¨
- Ice Beam
- Rock Slide / Superpower

and yes I wrote this down on the P-pad but nobody seems to use this.
X-scissor Is usally used to deal with Quilladin, but then you see that X-scissor only garanties the 2HKO on Quilladin if you're running Adamant band eith Rocks or jolly band with Rocks+1 layer of spikes. Ice beam on the other hand is almost a garantied 2HKO after SR

24 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Quilladin: 138-164 (42.3 - 50.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not only that but Knock off + Ice beam kills Gourgeist-L
252 Atk Life Orb Kingler Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Large: 174-205 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
24 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Large: 169-200 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Finally it is great for booping Gabite and Fraxure,
24 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gabite: 286-338 (103.2 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
24 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 153-182 (56 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

as for other bulky shit:
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 153-183 (44.4 - 53.1%) -- 30.9% chance to 2HKO
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regigigas: 309-364 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Prinplup: 155-182 (46.8 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO (knock off first too win)
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Wigglytuff: 239-282 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 551-650 (143.8 - 169.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 187-222 (54.3 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Zweilous: 302-356 (86.7 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 182-216 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 161-190 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
232 Atk Life Orb Kingler Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Grumpig: 346-408 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Also I cannto express this enough but
KINGLER IS NOT BROKEN
Because it has a fuckton of checks

 

[Magis4Life]

Murkrow is undisputedly the single best prankster user in the tier. With its excellent movepool and solid offensive and (if eviolite) defensive stats, it is also one of the most versatile threats in this meta currently. It can be rather unpredictable and each of its sets (offensive, cm, defensive stallbreaker, etc.) share different checks respectively. Priority T wave is excellent in this tier against offense with lack of many electric/ground (electabuzz, gabite, krokorok, whiscash is what I commonly see on offense and murkrow hits the lot of these pretty hard). It is an easily splashable mon and, depending on the set, can wreck offense, balance, bulky offense, or stall. Hell, some sets plainly wreck multiple playstyles (cm alone gives balance/bulky offense and even offense a lot of trouble). I do think it needs a suspect at least (I personally agree with Don that it is unhealthy though I don't think it is quite as bad as Ursaring/Fraxure).

 

[Ares]

eeeeh
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Marshtomp: 80-96 (23.2 - 27.9%) -- 72.9% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Marshtomp: 116-140 (33.7 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Prinplup: 26-32 (7.8 - 9.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Prinplup: 36-44 (10.8 - 13.2%) -- possible 8HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Wartortle: 36-44 (11.1 - 13.6%) -- possible 8HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Wartortle: 24-30 (7.4 - 9.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Huntail: 82-98 (32.6 - 39%) -- 9.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Simipour: 94-112 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Kingler: 166-196 (65.8 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Only 2HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Lapras: 106-126 (26.3 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Whiscash: 116-140 (28.7 - 34.6%) -- 4.6% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Pignite Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seaking: 78-94 (21.4 - 25.8%) -- 2% chance to 4HKO



Good job on breaking those :]

Hey, I just gave Grass Knot as an option to hit Marshtomp and Wishcash as I saw a few of them. Wild Charge is also an option, like I said it was just a set to give people some place to start. Obviously Wild Charge can't hit Marshtomp and Whishcash, but since you are acting like Pignite can't break some of the things you listed and has to straight up OHKO them, here are some rebuttle calcs with Wild Charge. Also please keep in mind that getting 1/3 damage on something that has no reliable recovery is actually pretty good as you can 2HKO things later on in the battle and this stuff can only switch in once.

Calcs

252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Prinplup: 158-186 (47.5 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Prinplup: 106-126 (31.9 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Wartortle: 96-114 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Wartortle: 138-164 (42.9 - 51%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Huntail: 166-196 (66.1 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Simipour: 250-296 (85.6 - 101.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingler: 152-180 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (does about the same as Grass Knot)

252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 206-244 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also for everyone doing walls of calcs, can you put them in hide tags, as it isn't this wall of text. (Just a suggestion)

 

[glock in my toyota]

I'm just gonna say that I hate that murkrow will likely get the banhammer, because I actually enjoy the offensive BB Sucker set, and without Twave it would still be an extremely fun mon, seeing as STAB BB + STAB Sucker is extremely fun, granted not as effective as some other mons in the tier. I understand it's ban however, because Homoeffective set is fucking dumb, and CM is probably the best wincon in the tier outside of ursaring.

I'll also be posting about Ursaring, and I can safely say it is the stupidest thing imaginable in this tier. SD Taunt renders Stall useless, SD Quick Feet 3 Attacks rapes offense 3 ways to Sunday, and the guts set just nukes everything to grace the earth. It really is holding back the meta, and can basically be thrown on any semi-offensive team and do work. It's just simply unhealthy, and promotes a tier where foulplay gourgeist is practically necessary for defensive teams lmao. The few things that still outspeed Quick Feet Ursa struggle to kill it, and some of the ones that are actually relevant in being able to Force it out/Revenge Kill include Fake Out Persian, Banded Ninjask, Scarf Rapidash, Specs Swoobat (is that a thing?), Jolly Scarf Rampardos, and a few others, but all of these things have one thing in common: they aren't very good. BandJask is alright, and so is Persian, but they all have Crippling weaknesses (Jask's rock weakness and general frailty, Persian being worn down by LO + Rocks, Scarf Rapi being weak, and not appreciating a Choice Lock, etc.) that hold them back from being very good.

Ursaring is just way too hard to Check or counter, and it needs to go. BAN.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Hey, I just gave Grass Knot as an option to hit Marshtomp and Wishcash as I saw a few of them. Wild Charge is also an option, like I said it was just a set to give people some place to start. Obviously Wild Charge can't hit Marshtomp and Whishcash, but since you are acting like Pignite can't break some of the things you listed and has to straight up OHKO them, here are some rebuttle calcs with Wild Charge. Also please keep in mind that getting 1/3 damage on something that has no reliable recovery is actually pretty good as you can 2HKO things later on in the battle and this stuff can only switch in once.

Calcs

252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Prinplup: 158-186 (47.5 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Prinplup: 106-126 (31.9 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Wartortle: 96-114 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Wartortle: 138-164 (42.9 - 51%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Huntail: 166-196 (66.1 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Simipour: 250-296 (85.6 - 101.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingler: 152-180 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (does about the same as Grass Knot)

252+ Atk Pignite Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 206-244 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also for everyone doing walls of calcs, can you put them in hide tags, as it isn't this wall of text. (Just a suggestion)

Minor thing: I only use hide bars when I put up literal walls of calcs, 12 calcs are nothing :] (you can probably find some of my walls in the old UU V-rankings)

While I do agree that 1/3 of the total damage is pretty good, look at how few pokemon was dealt with by Grass knot. Pignite is also forced out by them, as even uninvested their STABs do atleast 50%. I do think Pignite should have a ranking, but I would much rather use Monferno most of the time (yes I know they play different) as it have a decent speed tier and a much better selection for fight STAB (which is GOD in FU). It also has better support options with SR being a big stand out.

Persian being worn down by LO + Rocks

LO is pretty meh on Persian as it would much rather have a silk scarf which gives it a simular boost while still keeping your health at high. The only reason yu should ever run LO is if you dont run Hazards and are facing Ursaring

 

[glock in my toyota]

LO is pretty meh on Persian as it would much rather have a silk scarf which gives it a simular boost while still keeping your health at high. The only reason yu should ever run LO is if you dont run Hazards and are facing Ursaring

Eh, fair enough, I don't really use persian too much, but from what I've seen they usually run Life Orb, but I suppose I'm wrong. Still though, am I wrong in the fact that Persian isnt really that good?

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Eh, fair enough, I don't really use persian too much, but from what I've seen they usually run Life Orb, but I suppose I'm wrong. Still though, am I wrong in the fact that Persian isnt really that good?

Persian is by no means a bad pokemon, and it can revenge a decent about of sweepers in the tier, and can be a solid anti-lead but it is not the best pokemon around and Normal STAB can only get you so far. As for sets, the two sets I would consider are either the pivot set or the NP set. Both these set have Niches which make them usable, Pivot being able to revenge and shut down defensive mons, adn the NP set has the suprise factor. I think they are good enough to put persian on its current ranking in the viability rankings. I will however agree that they are not fantastic in any way. Pivot Persian + Eviolite Buzz + CB Ninja make for a pretty good Volt-turn core btw. Pivot Persin also fits as an alternative to a defogger/Spinner on Sun teams wince none of the ones in the tier likes Sun.

Persian @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- Knock Off / Taunt
- U-turn

Persian @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Swift
- Water Pulse
- Icy Wind / Shock Wave / Taunt / filler

Don Honchkrorleone why use Round > Swift? Double-edge + TEchnician should not be legal anyways, as Technician did not exist in gen 3