Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Camerupt @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Ancient Power
- Will-O-Wisp / Stealth Rock
Basically, 2/3rds of a FWG core. These two mons have amazing synergy together, and cover up each of their their weakenesses really well. MCamerupt is vulnerable to Water types and Ground types, particularly Keldeo, Azumarill, MGyara, Slowbro, Lando-I and Excadrill which Celebi can switch into without too much difficulty (Celebi even beats CroBro thanks to Nasty Plot). Celebi also hard counters Rotom-W which is a massive pain for MCamerupt since it's pretty much the only electric type it can't beat. In return, MCamerupt checks Steel types that like switching into Celebi like Bisharp, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory, as well as fire types like the Zards, Heatran, and Victini. Celebi is also fantastic at giving a free switches into MCamerupt thanks to Baton Pass, hopefully baiting in something it can take advantage of easily. Also, god help your opponent if you manage to pass a NP boost to Camerupt. Just pair this up with a bulky Water, preferably one that can take on the likes of Talonflame, Mamoswine, Greninja and Landorus-T and you have yourself a really solid FWG core, and you can make the rest of the team as Electric-weak as you damn please since no Electric type is ever going to be able to do anything to a team containing this core with the exception of Earthquake+Flamethrower EVire
mola's cool if you want a bulkier approach, but if you want something less passive sdef gyara is a really cool addition, checks ninja and talon really well and p much nothing lures electric types better. sr + wish jirachi also looks like it'd compliment the core really well if you went the gyara route, provides two great forms of support and reliably checks latios (who looks fairly bothersome to these two
Camerupt @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Ancient Power
- Will-O-Wisp / Stealth Rock
Basically, 2/3rds of a FWG core. These two mons have amazing synergy together, and cover up each of their their weakenesses really well. MCamerupt is vulnerable to Water types and Ground types, particularly Keldeo, Azumarill, MGyara, Slowbro, Lando-I and Excadrill which Celebi can switch into without too much difficulty (Celebi even beats CroBro thanks to Nasty Plot). Celebi also hard counters Rotom-W which is a massive pain for MCamerupt since it's pretty much the only electric type it can't beat. In return, MCamerupt checks Steel types that like switching into Celebi like Bisharp, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory, as well as fire types like the Zards, Heatran, and Victini. Celebi is also fantastic at giving a free switches into MCamerupt thanks to Baton Pass, hopefully baiting in something it can take advantage of easily. Also, god help your opponent if you manage to pass a NP boost to Camerupt. Just pair this up with a bulky Water, preferably one that can take on the likes of Talonflame, Mamoswine, Greninja and Landorus-T and you have yourself a really solid FWG core, and you can make the rest of the team as Electric-weak as you damn please since no Electric type is ever going to be able to do anything to a team containing this core with the exception of Earthquake+Flamethrower EVire
Testing this now. I tried 252/252+ in HP/SpA with lukewarm success, but I think given the pokemon Camerupt is meant to handle in this pair I might try going physically defensive like alexwolf mentioned a few pages back, that way it can survive an EQ from Adamant +1 M-Metagross and OHKO back with Fire Blast. (For the record I have no idea if Adamant or Jolly is preferred for physical Metagross, and I haven't seen many mixed sets so far).
+1 252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Camerupt: 280-330 (81.3 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (needs rocks gone to survive)
4 SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 390-462 (107.1 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It can also take any non-banded EQ from Excadrill and OHKO back if it's not holding an Assault Vest. Besides steels, going physically defensive means it can easily take anything Talonflame throws at it and OHKO back with Ancient Power. Might pair this with Rotom W.
mola's cool if you want a bulkier approach, but if you want something less passive sdef gyara is a really cool addition, checks ninja and talon really well and p much nothing lures electric types better. sr + wish jirachi also looks like it'd compliment the core really well if you went the gyara route, provides two great forms of support and reliably checks latios (who looks fairly bothersome to these two
True, though Gyarados is easy to wear down in general, and especially with Lando-T's U-turn + Stealth Rock up, which means that the core is weak to Landorus-T. I prefer self-sufficient defensive cores, so i would go with Alomomola, instead of having two bulky Pokemon with no recovery, one of which is SR weak. If you add Jirachi alongside Gyarados, you are going for more for a defensive approach (4 slow Pokemon with small offensive presence), and you still have a Ground-weakness to cover (Gyarados is easy to wear down), two Psychic-types, and no offensive presence whatsoever, and you also need anti-SR support in only two slots.
This thing is absurd. It's even comparable to DD LO Rayquaza when you think about it. Aerialate MegaMence Double Edge hits only very slightly weaker than LO Rayquaza Outrage, but nothing is immune to flying AND you aren't locked into it like Outrage all at the cost of 33% recoil, yet a lot of Mega Mence are running Roost anyways. Mega Mence also lacks LO recoil unlike LO Rayquaza. Mega Mence is significantly more versatile too. It has WAY more physical bulk too, and it's much faster and fast enough such that only priority can outspeed after a speed boost, but it's so bulky that 4 TIMES SE LO STAB MAMOSWINE ICE SHARD DOESN'T EVEN RELIABLY REVENGE KILL. That's also assuming that Mega Mence isn't behind a substitute and Bulky Sub DD Roost Mega Mence is a very commonly used set right now and Mamoswine and Weavile DO NOT like taking a Double Edge. The only things LO DD Rayquaza have over Mega Mence are V-Create and E-Speed, but Mega Salamence more than makes up for the lack of priority in Skarmory-comparable physical bulk and a very high speed stat that outspeed (as far as I know) all not-retarded Choice Scarf users in OU(scarf gren doesnt count lol) and Salamence with Earthquake and Fire Blast coverage with its good SpA stats definitely suffices for the lack of V-Create. Lastly and obviously, they share a common weakness in SR. I'm not discussing tiering or bans, but come on, it's comparable to Ray-fucking-quaza.
To be fair DD mence is probably going to be the most popular set for a while and if Mence runs 0 SA and Aggron runs only a little sp def it isn't even getting close to a 2HKO even with Fire Blast. M Aggron's bigger problem is having to switch in pre-mega and eating an Earthquake which will easily 2HKO.
True, though Gyarados is easy to wear down in general, and especially with Lando-T's U-turn + Stealth Rock up, which means that the core is weak to Landorus-T. I prefer self-sufficient defensive cores, so i would go with Alomomola, instead of having two bulky Pokemon with no recovery, one of which is SR weak. If you add Jirachi alongside Gyarados, you are going for more for a defensive approach (4 slow Pokemon with small offensive presence), and you still have a Ground-weakness to cover (Gyarados is easy to wear down), two Psychic-types, and no offensive presence whatsoever, and you also need anti-SR support in only two slots.
To be fair DD mence is probably going to be the most popular set for a while and if Mence runs 0 SA and Aggron runs only a little sp def it isn't even getting close to a 2HKO even with Fire Blast. M Aggron's bigger problem is having to switch in pre-mega and eating an Earthquake which will easily 2HKO.
True, but even then the thing's still forcing you to run stupidly obscure sets no-one in their right mind would run anyway; and take up your mega slot for that matter for a Mega that is honestly kind of meh in OU. So... yeah, this thing's still insane
True, but even then the thing's still forcing you to run stupidly obscure sets no-one in their right mind would run anyway; and take up your mega slot for that matter for a Mega that is honestly kind of meh in OU. So... yeah, this thing's still insane
But realtalk, for an actual 'counter' to megamence... your best bet is prankster status.
Either Sableye's Will-o-Wisp or Thundurus' Thunder Wave works, but of course Thundurus is easily the best of the two here. Not to mention...
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 364-432 (109.9 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It can even OHKO. However, of course, a Thunder Wave will only give you a 50/50 of winning...
+1 252+ Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 310-366 (103.6 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 312-367 (104.3 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even then, Thundurus is literally the only thing reliable against this, and it can't even switch in unless you predict the D-Dance/Roost.
252+ SpA Aerilate Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 138-163 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 133-157 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after dual-wielding White Herb
0 SpA Analytic Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 384-452 (116 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Extremely vulnerable to crits and annoyingly passive, but there's your Megamence counter.
44+ Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 264-312 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Rhyperior: 116-137 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- 60.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 175-207 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Rhyperior: 210-247 (49.5 - 58.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 74-88 (17.4 - 20.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Rhyperior is a pretty damn good check to Salamence. It would have to run Hydro Pump to handle Rhyperior and for now at least, that's not common. And Rhyperior is really not a horrible choice as it's still one of the best answers to bird spam as is. It can also function as a Stealth Rock setter for you.
Considering Garchomp's speed tier is being considered not as great as it used to be and the fact Glalie can't hold a scarf and it's megalution turn speed tier is shite, Glalie's speed is only "decent" for... I'm really reluctant to say 'wallbreaking' due to how horribly wrong I was on that subject last time (lol pedobreaker), and really it has like... one spammable attack. 120 attack with no boosts is only good in conjunction with it's ability and STAB for a mega, really, and the fact explosion's all it really has going for it leaves it very predictable, very limited and very outclassed. I've no doubt it'll wreck the lower tiers but here it just doesn't seem worth it imo. Hell I shit on mega beedrill all the time but I can say that thing has a hell of a lot more use than mega lolidie
edit: why did I say one spammable attack; explosion is like the exact opposite of spammable
It's more so the fact that mence could (if it wanted to) run moves like fire blast, hyper voice, and hydro pump and some investment to wreck its checks. In the case of rhyperior, mence doesn't even need to invest to OHKO the physically defensive variant with hydro pump.
0 SpA Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 447-528 (102.9 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Obviously as Yamborski said the DD variants will be the most common but considering an aerialate return coming from a base 145 attack hits so hard with little investment it could very feasibly run a powerful mixed set. I doubt it will be long before we see mixed sets appear.
Ice Beam Cresselia can take on MMence pretty well from what I've experienced. Then again it's literally more passive than Chansey so it only really fits on full stall.
The problem with all the defensive Mega Salamence checks, such as Thunder Wave Clefable, Rotom-W, Ice Beam Cresselia, Ice Beam / Thunder Wave Slowbro, and Hidden Power Ice Landorus-T is the same, they all lose to bulky Roost + Refresh sets. It's almost impossible to find a Pokemon able to check both offensive and bulky sets of Mega Salamence. Rhyperior is as close as it gets, but it's murdered by mixed sets.
Doesn't Mega Slowbro take a +1 attack from Mega Salamence and OHKO with ice beam?
I mean, I assume Salamence 2HKO's so slowbro won't be useable most of the time, but stopping Mega Salamence is worth the low health imho
252+ SpA Aerilate Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 138-163 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 133-157 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after dual-wielding White Herb
0 SpA Analytic Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 384-452 (116 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Extremely vulnerable to crits and annoyingly passive, but there's your Megamence counter.
Double Edge has a ~28% chance to 2HKO P2 from 100% after SR. Only a few more percentage of damage is enough to 2HKO and it's not that hard to weaken a little bit as P2 has no Leftys. P2 is just a reason to use Double Edge imo.
Doesn't Mega Slowbro take a +1 attack from Mega Salamence and OHKO with ice beam?
I mean, I assume Salamence 2HKO's so slowbro won't be useable most of the time, but stopping Mega Salamence is worth the low health imho
- +2 4+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 0 SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Salamence: 276-328 (70 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So, Mega Salamence can set up a DD, set up a second one as Mega Slowbro uses Ice Beam, and try to stall out Ice Beam with Roost. This strategy is much more possible if Mega Salamence is using Substitute instead of Refresh, as in 16 hits there is a big possibility for Mega Salamence to get frozen. So yeah, defensive Mega Slowbro with Ice Beam is a good check to any physical Mega Salamence.
Double Edge has a ~28% chance to 2HKO P2 from 100% after SR. Only a few more percentage of damage is enough to 2HKO and it's not that hard to weaken a little bit as P2 has no Leftys. P2 is just a reason to use Double Edge imo.
