Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

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Free Gliscor
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I thought Hydro Pump was not really as common any more. Low Kick hits common Water STAB targets (Heatran, TTar) about as hard or harder, while also hitting Ferro and Chansey hard.
Low Kick is really just a mediocre option. It works, sure, but Hydro Pump is more consistent than Low kick, as a Move that's of mediocre BP against most things that comes off of a significantly less invested attack stat is usually not worth the moveslot. It works well as a lure, but is in no way standard, as Hydro hits things harder most of the time anyways.

The only real deviations I've seen from the countless battles I've seen with Greninja (I didn't play all of them btw, just most) are HP Fire > Dark Pulse or Spikes > Gunk Shot when paired with like Metagross, Bisharp, or Scizor. GK and Low Kick are generally the least used of his clever age options due to only hitting specialized targets.
 

Albacore

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Hydro Pump is definitely very common on Greninja right now, however I have a feeling Low Kick will kick off (so to speak) when people realise it's overall a better version of Hydro Pump coverage-wise. Still hits the main Hydro Pump targets, Heatran, TTar, and Terrakion just as hard if not harder depending on Greninja's investement (unless Heatran is Phys Def which just does not exist), while also hitting Magnezone, Empoleon (who is getting more popular), Kyurem-B, MGyarados, MSharpedo, Crawdaunt, opposing Greninja and most importantly, Ferrothorn, who walls you if you do not carry HP Fire. You do miss out on a couple of things such as Bulky Mega-Scizor and Diancie, but those are not nearly as common as Ferrothorn combined. So yeah, use Low Kick on Greninja, it's slightly better imo (and not having to rely on 80% acc is always nice).
 

Adamant Zoroark

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It's a pretty good check, but without any Special Defense investment, Greninja does about as much as you get back with Wish and Leftovers (assuming WishTect build) if it has Grass Knot:

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 229-273 (49.3 - 58.8%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I wouldn't say that Greninja would win if has Grass Knot, but it would still be a bit of a toss-up since if you run out of wishes before Greninja runs out of Grass Knots or you switch on Grass Knot, you have a problem. Other than that it makes it a pretty strong check, since Vaporeon would arguably win if both it and Greninja enter the field reasonably healthy even if it does have Grass Knot, and without it you can easily Wish Stall until Greninja is down to about 30% and kill it with Scald.
Either way, Vaporeon's viability is zero otherwise, so that's pretty telling as to how crazy Greninja is in this meta. Exactly how many people would have actually considered using Vaporeon in XY?


Exactly.
 

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Free Gliscor
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Either way, Vaporeon's viability is zero otherwise, so that's pretty telling as to how crazy Greninja is in this meta. Exactly how many people would have actually considered using Vaporeon in XY?


Exactly.
This argument is pretty flawed because this exact same logic could be applied to Rhyperior, Bisharp, alomomomomomomola, Mew, CBBNite (when that was common), Cresselia, and other niche mons such as Raikou and Magnezone. All these mons rose up to deal with specific threats throughout the XY OU meta. Almost none of these were seen in BW (afaik), and a bunch were irrelevant in the early meta (see: Raikou, Magnezone, alomomomomomomola, and Mew).

New threats emerging from UU to deal with a mon is only the natural evolution of the meta. It's not like Vaporeon is on the level of unviable like Rocky Helmet Sableye or admin Weezing lol.
 
This argument is pretty flawed because this exact same logic could be applied to Rhyperior, Bisharp, alomomomomomomola, Mew, CBBNite (when that was common), Cresselia, and other niche mons such as Raikou and Magnezone. All these mons rose up to deal with specific threats throughout the XY OU meta. Almost none of these were seen in BW (afaik), and a bunch were irrelevant in the early meta (see: Raikou, Magnezone, alomomomomomomola, and Mew).

New threats emerging from UU to deal with a mon is only the natural evolution of the meta. It's not like Vaporeon is on the level of unviable like Rocky Helmet Sableye or admin Weezing lol.
You can use that exact same logic to defend Porygon2 being a counter to Megamence; Rhyperior, Magnezone, Mew and Alomomola do a hell of a lot more than deal with one Pokémon. What worth does Vaporeon really have other than this one specific task?
 

Adamant Zoroark

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This argument is pretty flawed because this exact same logic could be applied to Rhyperior, Bisharp, alomomomomomomola, Mew, CBBNite (when that was common), Cresselia, and other niche mons such as Raikou and Magnezone. All these mons rose up to deal with specific threats throughout the XY OU meta. Almost none of these were seen in BW (afaik), and a bunch were irrelevant in the early meta (see: Raikou, Magnezone, alomomomomomomola, and Mew).

New threats emerging from UU to deal with a mon is only the natural evolution of the meta. It's not like Vaporeon is on the level of unviable like Rocky Helmet Sableye or admin Weezing lol.
My point is that Vaporeon is obscure and borderline-unviable aside from checking one Pokemon. The Pokemon you listed aren't even that bad outside of checking one Pokemon; Vaporeon is. When you're using an otherwise-unviable poke, you know something's up.
 

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Free Gliscor
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My point is that Vaporeon is obscure and borderline-unviable aside from checking one Pokemon. The Pokemon you listed aren't even that bad outside of checking one Pokemon; Vaporeon is. When you're using an otherwise-unviable poke, you know something's up.
Then use Alomomomomomola. Same role, counters the fuck out of non GK Ninja, and counters the fuck out of a lot of other things. Applies to Kurona's post as well.

Also don't hate on P2, as he's way better than anyone is giving him credit for. I'm not gonna make a long ass post or anything (I will later tho), but Ninja and Mence aren't the only reasons for his surge in usage.
 
Besides greninja Vap has enough bulk where it can counter many other special attackers and some physical attackers, generally alomomomomomomomomomola does better because regenerator, but yeah.
 
Hydro Pump is definitely very common on Greninja right now, however I have a feeling Low Kick will kick off (so to speak) when people realise it's overall a better version of Hydro Pump coverage-wise. Still hits the main Hydro Pump targets, Heatran, TTar, and Terrakion just as hard if not harder depending on Greninja's investement (unless Heatran is Phys Def which just does not exist), while also hitting Magnezone, Empoleon (who is getting more popular), Kyurem-B, MGyarados, MSharpedo, Crawdaunt, opposing Greninja and most importantly, Ferrothorn, who walls you if you do not carry HP Fire. You do miss out on a couple of things such as Bulky Mega-Scizor and Diancie, but those are not nearly as common as Ferrothorn combined. So yeah, use Low Kick on Greninja, it's slightly better imo (and not having to rely on 80% acc is always nice).
I ran both but I feel hydro pump eases prediction against a lot of threats (better neutral coverage) and hits much harder unless you invest in attack.
Maybe someone could come up with a tailored EV spread that would make an ice beam/dark pulse/ low kick/ gunk shot more effective than the standard 252 SpAtk/ 252+ speed.

The guy saying that Graas knot Greninja can stall wishtect vaporeon didn't account for life orb recoil. There is no way ninja can win. I'm not saying that vappy is good though. A simple wish/protect/scald/baton pass can be a good to pass safe wishes although usually outclassed by its fairy sister.
 

MANNAT

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Hydro Pump is definitely very common on Greninja right now, however I have a feeling Low Kick will kick off (so to speak) when people realise it's overall a better version of Hydro Pump coverage-wise. Still hits the main Hydro Pump targets, Heatran, TTar, and Terrakion just as hard if not harder depending on Greninja's investement (unless Heatran is Phys Def which just does not exist), while also hitting Magnezone, Empoleon (who is getting more popular), Kyurem-B, MGyarados, MSharpedo, Crawdaunt, opposing Greninja and most importantly, Ferrothorn, who walls you if you do not carry HP Fire. You do miss out on a couple of things such as Bulky Mega-Scizor and Diancie, but those are not nearly as common as Ferrothorn combined. So yeah, use Low Kick on Greninja, it's slightly better imo (and not having to rely on 80% acc is always nice).
i see extrasensory as the better option because it allows you to keep the set specially based.
 

Clone

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I ran both but I feel hydro pump eases prediction against a lot of threats (better neutral coverage) and hits much harder unless you invest in attack.
Maybe someone could come up with a tailored EV spread that would make an ice beam/dark pulse/ low kick/ gunk shot more effective than the standard 252 SpAtk/ 252+ speed.
The standard mixed spread (which I posted first in the ORAS move tutor thread #noshamenovember) is the following:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SAtk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse

Naive > Hasty to take priority better (like he takes it anyways lol), 40 Atk EVs guarantee the OHKO on Max HP Azu w/ Gunk Shot, and iirc also gets the 2HKO on something with Low Kick. Don't quote me on that last part.
 
I ran both but I feel hydro pump eases prediction against a lot of threats (better neutral coverage) and hits much harder unless you invest in attack.
Maybe someone could come up with a tailored EV spread that would make an ice beam/dark pulse/ low kick/ gunk shot more effective than the standard 252 SpAtk/ 252+ speed.

The guy saying that Graas knot Greninja can stall wishtect vaporeon didn't account for life orb recoil. There is no way ninja can win. I'm not saying that vappy is good though. A simple wish/protect/scald/baton pass can be a good to pass safe wishes although usually outclassed by its fairy sister.
I think I'm the one you're talking about. Sorry, I thought I was clear that Greninja would have to catch it on the switch or attempt to kill it when it was low on Wish pp to be able to kill non-Special Defense Vaporeon. Just to make myself clear, all other things equal, Vaporeon should be able to beat Greninja in most scenarios, though as others mentioned Alo(ctrl+v mo)la tends to be much better.
 
Honestly 40 attack isn't worth it because even though it OHKOes AV azumarill, it OHKOes it after rocks anyways with 4 attack EVs, but that's just me.
 

Karxrida

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People run Hydro Pump because it's Greninja's strongest option for cleaning late-game due to great neutral coverage. If you're going to have Low Kick replace anything, have it be Gunk Shot; it's not like Fairies are going to throwing themselves at Greninja until they know the full set.
 

Martin

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Greninja and M-Mence need to just GTFO of the meta. they are rediculously overcentralising, and it is to the point that it is nigh on impossible to deal with both of them while still making a half-decent team. I mean srs if you try tou counter both you usually end up with a sub-par team. Something I have been using to beat them both is Chople Berry Empoleon:

Empoleon @ Chople Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Ice Beam
- Scald
- Toxic
- Roar / Defog / Stealth Rock

I've been using Roar personally to deal with CM M-Slowbro and Clefable, but the other moves can also be used to decent effect. This set literally screams how overcentralising they are. Its like Mega Kangaskhan all over again (see Rocky Helmet Garchomp and Ferrothorn).

  • 4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Empoleon: 86-101 (23.1 - 27.1%) -- 43.5% chance to 4HKO
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 140 SpD Empoleon: 86-101 (23.1 - 27.1%) -- 61.7% chance to 4HKO
  • 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 92-108 (24.7 - 29%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
  • 4 SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 312-368 (88.8 - 104.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 

Karxrida

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Greninja and M-Mence need to just GTFO of the meta. they are rediculously overcentralising, and it is to the point that it is nigh on impossible to deal with both of them while still making a half-decent team. I mean srs if you try tou counter both you usually end up with a sub-par team. Something I have been using to beat them both is Chople Berry Empoleon:

Empoleon @ Chople Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Ice Beam
- Scald
- Toxic
- Roar / Defog / Stealth Rock

I've been using Roar personally to deal with CM M-Slowbro and Clefable, but the other moves can also be used to decent effect. This set literally screams how overcentralising they are. Its like Mega Kangaskhan all over again (see Rocky Helmet Garchomp and Ferrothorn).

  • 4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Empoleon: 86-101 (23.1 - 27.1%) -- 43.5% chance to 4HKO
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 140 SpD Empoleon: 86-101 (23.1 - 27.1%) -- 61.7% chance to 4HKO
  • 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 92-108 (24.7 - 29%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
  • 4 SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 312-368 (88.8 - 104.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Greninja often runs 40 Attack EVs on mixed sets, and it will switch out after seeing the Chople Berry (the Empoleon switch-in will be extremely obvious so it will likely catch you as you do so). You're not even beating Mega Salamence, just delaying the inevitable, and even then you can't do it consistently because you don't have any Lefties.
 
I just wanted to say a short piece on greninja. He is very powerful and deserving of a suspect but until then there are things that can switch into him for defensvie teams, and he can be revenge killed by offensive teams. His most common set is the one previously mentioned by clone, being gunk shot/low kick/dark pulse/ice beam, this is the most optimal set, so plan around it. Bulky water are a good answer if you desperately want a switchin to him. He can obviously run a sub-optimal moveset that would include extrsensory to hit tentacruel, but if you are playing on stall, losing one turn to scouting isnt going to lose you the game.

Again I would like to say that I am not stating whether I think he should be banned or not, I am just saying that until his suspect test arrives it would be wise to just learn to play around his most popular sets and not get to worried about what he COULD be using, because most likely he isnt using a suboptimal set unless his team struggles with a certain mon, but hopefully you can read that from team preview. But yeah he is a pain in the ass for offensive teams, but surprising scarf mons like latios or keldeo are really good rn, and they have way more uses than just revenge killing greninja, so its not the end of the world.

I only mention this because I have heard alot of people acting like they cant build any sort of team because greninja just ohkos the whole team, but I just want to point out that while he may be broken, he can be handled somewhat reliably most of the time.(which sounds bad, but its the best we can do at the moment)
 
Imo,what's really broken and should be tested is protean rather than Greninja itself as this is what turns 3HKO into 2HKO; yet history has taught us that Smogon is to lazy to make a complex ban (Speed boost Blaiziken and Sand rush Excadrill).

I just wanted to say a short piece on greninja. He is very powerful and deserving of a suspect but until then there are things that can switch into him for defensvie teams, and he can be revenge killed by offensive teams. His most common set is the one previously mentioned by clone, being gunk shot/low kick/dark pulse/ice beam, this is the most optimal set, so plan around it. Bulky water are a good answer if you desperately want a switchin to him. He can obviously run a sub-optimal moveset that would include extrsensory to hit tentacruel, but if you are playing on stall, losing one turn to scouting isnt going to lose you the game.

Again I would like to say that I am not stating whether I think he should be banned or not, I am just saying that until his suspect test arrives it would be wise to just learn to play around his most popular sets and not get to worried about what he COULD be using, because most likely he isnt using a suboptimal set unless his team struggles with a certain mon, but hopefully you can read that from team preview. But yeah he is a pain in the ass for offensive teams, but surprising scarf mons like latios or keldeo are really good rn, and they have way more uses than just revenge killing greninja, so its not the end of the world.

I only mention this because I have heard alot of people acting like they cant build any sort of team because greninja just ohkos the whole team, but I just want to point out that while he may be broken, he can be handled somewhat reliably most of the time.(which sounds bad, but its the best we can do at the moment)
Something that I've been toying around with nice success is using Greninja as a glue to my main core by abusing both protean and Greninja's movepool just as you mentioned. So instead of trying to cover the complete meta with an “optimal” set I give it just the necessary tools to beat what ever gives trouble to my sweepers.

For example, running HP Fire + Gunk Shot + Ice beam + Low Kick with tailored EVs to get certain OHKOs and 2HKOs and surgically bringing down the walls that prevent my Birdspam core from wreaking havoc easily. Sure it misses coverage/other KOs, but it gives a lot of offensive momentum to my team and opens the necessary hole for a sweep.


Fun fact:
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 207-243 (60.7 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Why the hell would Mew be 0 hp / 0 spd
Mew here is just a random dummy with equal defensive stats. But it only shows that gunk shot is slightly stronger with full investment but with much worse coverage.
You almost need max SpAtk to ko Latias with ice beam anyway or you just get to trade (Latias LO recoil):
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 260-307 (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
The previous set with 40 atk EVs:
216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 252-299 (83.7 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 252-299 (83.7 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 325-383 (114 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Albacore

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nah don't run Low Kick+Hydro Pump, that's really redundant since both moves pretty much hit the same stuff. That being said, it is true that Hydro Pump is a lot more "reliable" than Low Kick since it's pretty much guaranteed to hit anything quite hard (it it hits), unlike Low Kick which is very target-reliant. For instance, if i'm against a Heatran and the opponent switches out to Rotom-W, Low Kick does absolutely pitiful damage so it's best to have Hydro Pump in that scenario. Hydro Pump definitely has a lot of merit as basically being your most powerful move,even though I personally feel like your main STAB is Ice Beam and not Hydro Pump, the latter does have better overall coverage.

btw in case anyone's wondering, the spread I use on mixed ninja is 112 Atk / 144 SpA / 252 Speed. Atk EVs give me the OHKO on Heatran after rocks, 2HKOs even the most physically defensive variants of Ferrothorn (216 Def Ferro gets 2HKO'd and even max/max gets 2HKO'd after rocks though that spread literally does not exist, it still gives you a nice jump point), OHKOs Mild Kyurem-B (and has a 50% chance to OHKO 52 HP Kyu-B), OHKOs Magnezone after SR and has a very high chance to 2HKO Phys Def Empoleon (do people use this?). You do lose out on the 100% guaranteed OHKO on Latios which is a shame, but you still OHKO it after rocks, and afaik you don't really miss out on any other important KOs.

edit : on second thoughts you miss out on Jirachi so if that's a threat just go max SpA. I actually use this spread on a Greninja which carries Grass Knot>Dark Pulse so it kinda fits better.

double edit : 136 Atk OHKOs Calm Clef so that's a thing too I guess.
 
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Don't think anyone has seen it but according to Serebii Soul Dew is back. Since it wasn't released it technically isn't banned in OU (although it totally will be) so we should be able to use it.
 
since my first attempt to get you all to discuss glalie failed, i will try again

Glalie @ Glalitite
Ability: Ice Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Double-Edge/Frustration
- Explosion(Facade if you are like REALLY weak to sableye)
- Earthquake

glalie is back with a vengeance. our favorite face monster now has access to the most powerful ice moves in the game, as well as freeze dry and earthquake so *most* steels and bulky waters arent a problem. let me recite viable counters to this set(assuming double edge)

bronzong
doublade
scizor
pdef p2

thats it from looking at the viability thread. seriously. of course, it has ALOT more checks, but this is the extent of what switches into it freely(and everything bar doublade is taking 50%+ from explosion).

so with the advent of freeze dry glalie(i'm still having wet dreams), will glalie have a more profound effect on the meta? will glalie finally emerge from the shadows of the C ranks? will glalie shag ur mum? that's for you to answer. peace out
 
Don't think anyone has seen it but according to Serebii Soul Dew is back. Since it wasn't released it technically isn't banned in OU (although it totally will be) so we should be able to use it.
EEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWW

So we might wanna put the Ninja tests on the backburner once Mence goes and get these things Gone.

As if the MegaLati@s especially Latios couldn't get anymore irrelevant, Latias can use the Soul Dew to better use on a CM Stored Power Set. well i guess they both have perks. MLatias is more physically Bulky, Soul Dew Latias is far more Specially bulky.

And Latios? He loves this Soul Dew, now he can hit like a truck

then again, in a meta full of Priority and other base 110's and Knock off, will these things break OU like they used to?

Probably.
 
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