Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[BenTheDemon]

With Greninja gone now, could Starmie come back as the fast Water type with Analytic and such?

Edit: while it doesn't really beat Megagross unless the latter switches in on hydro pump, I just wonder how it will fare in OU with Gren's ban.

It'll probably rise in usage, but not by much. Starmie just cannot replace the role Greninja played. Though I personally prefer a Bulky Set with Recover, Scald, Rapid Spin, and Psyshock. I think if you want a Special Attacker, there are many better options, but Starmie pulls off Bulky Rapid Spin relatively well.

 

[HardlySaucy]

Didn't Steel actually receive a defensive nerf? It lost resistance to Dark and Ghost (part of why Aegi was great and makes Knock Off orgasmicly good). Bug getting nerfs was just.. Game Freak pls and I disagree with Fire being a good Defensive typing for one reason only: Stealth Rocks. That single hazard takes away 25% of a Fire type's HP (which is why we don't see bulky Arcanine around and instead see Fire/resists Rock) and leaves it in a much worse position if it wants to tank something. Heatran does fine because of its Steel typing but I believe Fire is not a goos Defensive type.

Also, Mega Absol should've been Dark/Fairy.

But Bug and Ice are also weak to Rock and they got nothing. A weakness to Stealth Rocks doesnt always justify having 6 resistances and only 3 weaknesses. Ice deserved that resistance so much more than fire did. For that matter, so did Grass. Bug has U-Turn going for it which gives it the edge over Grass, so I would say the things that need a buff, in order, are Ice, just defensively, Grass, both in defense and offense, then bug in defense and offense and Rock needs a HUGE defense buff. I mean, it's a Rock for god's sake.

 

[Pyritie]

Didn't Steel actually receive a defensive nerf? It lost resistance to Dark and Ghost (part of why Aegi was great and makes Knock Off orgasmicly good). Bug getting nerfs was just.. Game Freak pls and I disagree with Fire being a good Defensive typing for one reason only: Stealth Rocks. That single hazard takes away 25% of a Fire type's HP (which is why we don't see bulky Arcanine around and instead see Fire/resists Rock) and leaves it in a much worse position if it wants to tank something. Heatran does fine because of its Steel typing but I believe Fire is not a goos Defensive type.

Fire is actually a very good defensive type in metagames where hazards aren't common, like doubles and battle spot. And those are the metas that GF "balances" for.

It doesn't help steel that pretty much everything can learn EQ or a fire move.

 

[Junglekun22801]

It'll probably rise in usage, but not by much. Starmie just cannot replace the role Greninja played. Though I personally prefer a Bulky Set with Recover, Scald, Rapid Spin, and Psyshock. I think if you want a Special Attacker, there are many better options, but Starmie pulls off Bulky Rapid Spin relatively well.

Yeah, while I do find bulky Starmie really good as well, I think it being faster than Keldeo, (Mega) Lati@s, and the plethora of 110s in OU, as well as having Analytic along with Rapid Spin, access to better coverage moves (so it doesn't have to rely on weak hidden powers) could make an offensive Starmie set a decent choice.

I'm not saying that Keldeo and other fast water types are worse than Starmie (which is far from true), I'm just simply stating why I think Starmie could pass as a good offensive water type in Greninja's absence

 

[master_marshmallow]

I have also been looking at Starmie and it has great potential. Hydro Pump and Psyshock for STAB plus bolt beam seems like the best set to me, but it has a lot of options. Grass Knot and HP Fire, and Dazzling Gleam for Sable also exist. That said, 180 BP from STAB hydro pump is still better than 160 from SE dazzling so that move is less important, but still exists.
Also having the ability to run a rapid spin bulky set gives it versatility.

 

[Kurona]

Please stop spamming the thread about what you think GF should have done in Gen 6; this isn't the place to discuss that at all

 

[AM]

Guys it's a discussion for the OU metagame as of now so please stick to that. Anything pertaining to other tiers or about in-game mechanics that game freak provides should be discussed else where or in private messages.

 

[ssjjynx]

I'm not sure if this is just me, but I've noticed that around mid-ladder ever since ninja got banned, a lot of teams are using excadrill over latias as their hazard-remover of choice. This was to be expected I guess, as excadrill got a Rasengan to the face against ninja, and it's only natural that there would be a seemingly large influx in usage for excadrill once ninja got the boot, but it does surprise me that a large number of people are choosing to use it over latias. Latias was getting beaten by ninja just as bad, until people started using the bulky set to live ice beam, and I would imagine that it would benefit from ninja being banned almost if not just as much as excadrill.

Of course, this could just be people's preference of rapid spin>defog, to save them the hassle of having to get up rocks all over again. Another reason I can see people wanting Rapid Spin over Defog is the large spike in usage of Spikes on a lot of teams, especially Offence. Spikes are probably being used more often due to the increase of grounded threats, and to take advantage of the amount of times opposing Offence teams (and balance and stall, but mostly offence) need to switch out to maintain momentum, and keep up offensive pressure.

 

[AM]

I think the trend of Rapid Spin > Defog comes from a teambuilding constraint. Not necessarily constraint but more so that with Defog you need to account certain limitations such as Hazard stacking being counter productive with the move along with Defiant. It's also from the fact that very few Defog users pose an offensive presence as other than the Latis as one example, they are mostly passive. The relevant spinners in the tier have other useful traits to utilize such as Sand Rush Excadrill, Natural Cure Reflect Type, all of Tentacruel's utility moves, or more immediate offensive presence such as the former two. As such it's sort of getting the package of not only what the Pokemon themselves provides but the utility of Rapid Spin as well, which you can look at as though the spinners have much more usefulness in terms of viability and can be implemented a bit more easily on teams.

 

[Clone]

One reason why I see Defog not being very common right now is Bisharp. Yeah, that one mon that sweeps your team once your Keldeo dies. I know I usually forego Defog whenever I notice a relative weakness to Bisharp (i.e. no hard checks for it) because I cannot afford to give this monster a free attack boost. I see other teams go with this option when no hard Bisharp checks exist on their team. And even then I'll see a team with a spinner and Keldeo, for example.

The other reason is simply because of synergy reasons, such as Tentacruel on teams that need a hazard remover that can take on the likes of Clefable and Heatran, for example. The other two spinners, Starmie and Excadrill have their own niches, such as Sand Rush or either being a pseudo Greninja, or a fast bulky water that can beat ferro thanks to Reflect Type.

Also there's spikes stacking, but AM sort of covered that above so I won't go into detail.

 

[jbtc10]

There's also quite a lot of teams who aren't using hazard removal at all and are instead opting to simply not include any or few team members who are SR weak. Hazard removal in general is a pretty big momentum burner, you're usually better off just having a team that doesn't mind hazards too much and forcing your opponent into a position where they need to waste turns to get rid of them which you can capitalize on. And yeah, Rapid Spin > Defog. That's always been the case really, but it's even more so now because Starmie and Excadrill are both useful offensive threats whereas pretty much every defogger is either passive, weak to rocks, can't switch into every common rock setter and win, or are relatively easy to switch into and exploit.

 

[TeslaMouse]

There's also quite a lot of teams who aren't using hazard removal at all and are instead opting to simply not include any or few team members who are SR weak. Hazard removal in general is a pretty big momentum burner, you're usually better off just having a team that doesn't mind hazards too much and forcing your opponent into a position where they need to waste turns to get rid of them which you can capitalize on. And yeah, Rapid Spin > Defog. That's always been the case really, but it's even more so now because Starmie and Excadrill are both useful offensive threats whereas pretty much every defogger is either passive, weak to rocks, can't switch into every common rock setter and win, or are relatively easy to switch into and exploit.

Not to mention Bisharp's defiant and Milotic's competitive are triggered by defog.

 

[Hogg]

Excadrill is also a decent answer to MSableye thanks to Mold Breaker, able to set rocks or Toxic despite Magic Bounce, which also might account for its jump in usage.

 

[master_marshmallow]

Excadrill is also a decent answer to MSableye thanks to Mold Breaker, able to set rocks or Toxic despite Magic Bounce, which also might account for its jump in usage.

I would anticipate a large jump in mgyara usage also for Taunt

 

[Kurona]

I would anticipate a large jump in mgyara usage also for Taunt

It's already happened; one of the bigger reasonings for Mgyara moving up is that aside from Crunch, it gets an unblockable taunt which is incredible in Meye meta.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Not sure if this is worth posting here... but rock head tyrunt is about to be released.

Serebii

Ahead of registration for the Battle of Hoenn competition tomorrow/tonight, it has been announced that, so far just for Japan, there will be an Entry gift for participants. If you enter in this competition, you will receive a special Tyrunt with the ability of Rock Head. However, while Tyrantrum has the ability Rock Head coded in, Tyrunt has Sturdy as its Hidden Ability so we are awaiting clarification. Entry begins at midnight UTC tonight and you need to enter at least three matches to earn your prize.

Will it be meta defining? I don't think personally but I think it might be buffed to OU.

 

[Kurona]

Why do people keep hyping up Rock Head Tyrantrum as if it'll significantly change Tyrantrum to such a degree that it outshines all it's negative traits and makes it OU Viable?
I'm sure it'll give it a new set or something in RU but this is really ridiculous. If Rock Head Head Smash didn't get Aggron even near OU viable, what makes people think it'll work for Tyrantrum? This is like the epitome of new toy syndrome

 

[heritage]

Why do people keep hyping up Rock Head Tyrantrum as if it'll significantly change Tyrantrum to such a degree that it outshines all it's negative traits and makes it OU Viable?
I'm sure it'll give it a new set or something in RU but this is really ridiculous. If Rock Head Head Smash didn't get Aggron even near OU viable, what makes people think it'll work for Tyrantrum? This is like the epitome of new toy syndrome

The thing with Tyrantrum is that it has Dragon Dance. +1 Head Smash with no recoil effect is absolutely brutal. Not to mention that you gain Speed with a DD. I'm sure it won't be any higher than D, but it's going to be a monster against most birdspam.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I'm sure it'll give it a new set or something in RU but this is really ridiculous. If Rock Head Head Smash didn't get Aggron even near OU viable, what makes people think it'll work for Tyrantrum? This is like the epitome of new toy syndrome

Aggron is more of an offensive tank (hardly offensive) while tyrantrum is more of a sweeper.

I'm not saying it'll be fantastic or anything in OU (personally the accuracy on head smash isn't worth it) but comparing it to aggron seems a little harsh.

 

[Pyritie]

If Rock Head Head Smash didn't get Aggron even near OU viable, what makes people think it'll work for Tyrantrum? This is like the epitome of new toy syndrome

Because tyrantrum has dragon dance and aggron doesn't?

 

[Kurona]

The thing with Tyrantrum is that it has Dragon Dance. +1 Head Smash with no recoil effect is absolutely brutal. Not to mention that you gain Speed with a DD. I'm sure it won't be any higher than D, but it's going to be an absolute monster against most birdspam.

Aggron had Rock Polish, a higher attack stat and actually passable defences. Even in RU Dragon Dance is considered awful, and I honestly don't see how Rock Head substantially changes it to such a degree where it's suddenly viable. It's still easily worn down, still easy to deal with and still outclassed. By the time you've Dragon Danced with... just about any better DDers which there are a lot of in OU, you aren't exactly missing the power of head smash.
Recoil-less Head Smash is it's one gimmick, and it's not a very good one. Definitely not enough to get past it's other problems.

 

[Karxrida]

Aggron's Attack is lower and is too slow for you to Scarf it. Tyrantrum gets Rock Polish too, by the way, and 82/119 physical bulk is still pretty impressive.

 

[Kurona]

Aggron's Attack is lower and is too slow for you to Scarf it. Tyrantrum gets Rock Polish too, by the way, and 82/119 physical bulk is still pretty impressive.

Right, sorry, was thinking of Mega Aggron's attack. Durr.
Anyway, the point of saying Rock Polish was to illustrate that Rock head + STAB Head Smash + Speed Boosting move isn't exactly something new -- in fact, Aggron is faster after a Rock Polish than Tyrantrum is after a Dragon Dance. I fail to see why Tyrantrum would be better in this role, especially when Aggron easily has the better bulk of the two, and while it has two 4X weaknesses - which Tyrantrum isn't going to be living any time soon regardless - it has a lot of useful resistances such as Fairy and Dragon. In addition, Tyrantrum actually loses power because it gives up Strong Jaw which gave it pseudo-STAB on coverage moves such as Fire Fang and Crunch. While the Aggron comparison might not seem obvious at first, it's very obvious how similar they are and the fact that vanilla Aggron is completely rejected for viability should have given you some insight into why Rock Head Tyrantrum doesn't deserve the hype it's getting.
There was also mention earlier of a birdspam destroyer. ... what? Right, sorry, but from what I'm hearing Tyrantrum's... "new" niche is massive power in Head Smash. You don't need to have a 150 base power move to destroy talonflame and mega pinsir lol; they're not exactly the epitome of bulk. I'm not sure how Tyrantrum is supposed to do better in this role than, say, Rhyperior.

 

[LoDart210]

This is a case of too little too late. In the XY meta where birdspam was king, the charizard megas were omnipresent, and mega pinsir was everyone's worst nightmare, rock head tyrantrum was the hero we deserved but not the one we got.

Nowadays different mons lead the meta. MSableye and mLop are the top megas, and mons like landorus-t and latios are everywhere and meta metagross is everyone's worst nightmare. Tyrantrum's head smash isn't as much of a threat anymore.

I think (like myself) a lot of players are glad to see something they desperately wanted finally released and in the heat of the moment forgot that what they wanted it for no longer exists.

Still, it's going to be fun to try it out. Contrary serperior has proven fun and competent. Maybe rock head tyrantrum will too.

 

[pika pal]

Right, sorry, was thinking of Mega Aggron's attack. Durr.
Anyway, the point of saying Rock Polish was to illustrate that Rock head + STAB Head Smash + Speed Boosting move isn't exactly something new -- in fact, Aggron is faster after a Rock Polish than Tyrantrum is after a Dragon Dance. I fail to see why Tyrantrum would be better in this role, especially when Aggron easily has the better bulk of the two, and while it has two 4X weaknesses - which Tyrantrum isn't going to be living any time soon regardless - it has a lot of useful resistances such as Fairy and Dragon. In addition, Tyrantrum actually loses power because it gives up Strong Jaw which gave it pseudo-STAB on coverage moves such as Fire Fang and Crunch. While the Aggron comparison might not seem obvious at first, it's very obvious how similar they are and the fact that vanilla Aggron is completely rejected for viability should have given you some insight into why Rock Head Tyrantrum doesn't deserve the hype it's getting..

I'd make the Counter argument Tyrantrum benefits more from Rock Head because of Head Smash's obscene power: Head Smash hits hard enough that it essentially eliminates the need for significant coverage.

With STAB, Head Smash reaches 225 power. Unless the target is resisting that and weak to the Fang move (97.5 Strong Jaw neutral fang vs 112.5 resisted Head Smash), there's no reason not to click Head Smash. The main resistors Tyrantrum would have to hit would be Steels that aren't hit SE by Earthquake (essentially, things tanking Edgequake), which includes Ferrothorn (4x Weak to Fire Fang anyway), Excadrill, Chesnaught and Breloom (though he wasn't beating the former anyway, and the latter still hates Head Smash)
0 Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 150-176 (49 - 57.5%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Tyrantrum Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 166-198 (43.6 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 170-204 (55.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 270-320 (103.4 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Losing power on coverage moves isn't as big a deal when spamming Head Smash and the occasional Earthquake almost completely mitigates the need for coverage in the first place. At most, he'll use Fire Fang or Ice Fang for 4x targets like Ferro or Garchomp (Neutrality means Boosted Head Smash suffices against Lando-T most of the time).

Tyrantrum obviously isn't faster than Aggron with Rock Polish, but checking the calculator, +1 Jolly w/ Max Speed (397) is still faster than Positive Base 130's, which I'd say is about as fast as he could ask considering it'd be DD instead. The flaw in the Aggron comparison is that using Rock Polish as the boosting move mitigates Speed issues, but doesn't solve the fact that, unboosted Base 110 Attack won't get him that far. If Tyrantrum has any niche, it's going to involve something to boost, be it DD or a Band for Wallbreaking. If we're ranking Mega Tyranitar, I don't see why we can't rank Tyrantrum, who has the exact same speed tier, achieves HIGHER damage output with his main STAB, and doesn't cost your team the Mega slot, meaning he can Wallbreak or punch holes for cleaners/sweepers like Altaria or Metagross, if not just shred Defensive cores with something like Gardevoir.

I won't deny there's probably hints of new toy syndrome, but in the context of OU, I feel Rock Head is a genuine improvement for Tyrantrum over Strong Jaw. If nothing else, a Wallbreaker that can do this
252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 180-213 (45.6 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 180-213 (45.6 - 54%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 216-255 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 237-279 (77.9 - 91.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Is something Stall can't leave unaccounted for, whether or not it prepares specifically for it. And with Stall (from what I've heard) being arguably the most common playstyle higher up the ladder, those numbers at least are looking pretty terrifying.