Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[Acast]

To be Honnest, I prefer the special set for Cobalion in Steel team.

Cobalion @ Expert Belt/Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Sp.Atk / 252 Spe/ 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Vol Switch
- Hidden Power Ice
- Flash Canon
- Taunt/ Focus Blast


Why this set can be good for Steel?

Just because one Pokemon called Landorus Earth Power/Focus Blast is able to destroy mono Steel Alone.
In addition with the fact HP Ice 0HKO Landorus, you have the opportunity to surprise your opponent with that set.

Ok, but is HP ice only for Landorus?
Nope, There is something called M-Chomp who can destroy too Steel teams.
But here, HP Ice doesn't 0Hko all the time (SpA Life Orb Cobalion Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Garchomp: 312-369 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock).

Well, some people will say there is Gastro and Seismitoad to tank this set and they'll be right.

Ps 1: Vol Switch has 50% 2HKO M-Zard Y.

I'd like to throw in my own opinion of Cobalion and just say that Fírnen's set is my new favorite thing to use. Earlier today I was able to win an OT mostly due to his special set.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/monotype-306221672

Sorry I only have one replay, but that was the finals of the OT and I'd say Cobalion was the MVP of this match by far. I was able to punch a couple holes in my opponent's Ground team with HP Ice and Focus Blast and I saved Cobalion until the end just in case I needed it for Landorus. Admittedly my opponent's team wasn't as anti-steel as most Ground teams are (no Focus Blast on Landorus and Garchomp didn't have a Fire move as far as I saw), but I think the outcome would have been the same even if Lando and Garchomp had their anti-steel moves.


On a different topic, I'd like to present my own addition to the "underrated Steel sets" conversation.

Naledi (Jirachi) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Energy Ball
- Charge Beam / Flash Cannon / Thunderbolt

My Steel team used to struggle a lot with Water. Ferrothorn wasn't working out for me as much as I wanted it to and Magnezone was always walled by the Water/Ground types. Infernape and Keldeo on Fighting were also serious concerns I had, and what Steel team doesn't have issues with Hydreigon? Sure, Scarf Rachi can probably work just as well against those threats, but I refused to ditch my Scarf Excadrill and I'd rather not have two scarf users. Not to mention I wanted Jirachi to be able to switch moves, so my AV Rachi set was born.

KEY: Green=Jirachi is attacking the opponent. Red=The opponent is attacking Jirachi.

Psyshock is your generic special STAB that deals with Infernape and Keldeo.

252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Jirachi: 265-315 (65.7 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Jirachi Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 318-374 (108.5 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Jirachi: 178-210 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 207-244 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Jirachi Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 260-308 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Moonblast is mainly for Hydreigon, but it helps against other Dragons too.

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Jirachi: 242-289 (60 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Jirachi Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 416-492 (128 - 151.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Energy Ball is great coverage, but it's especially useful for the Water/Ground types and Rotom-W.

252+ SpA Jirachi Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 392-464 (97 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Jirachi Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 508-600 (128.9 - 152.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Jirachi: 102-121 (25.3 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Jirachi Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Rotom-W: 170-200 (56.1 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Charge Beam makes use of Jirachi's Serene Grace to give it a 100% chance to boost SpA. I've always loved the Serene Grace Charge Beam combo, but in the past I only ever used it on AV Meloetta. Personally I prefer Charge Beam, but Flash Cannon is fine if you'd rather have a secondary STAB move instead.

AV Jirachi isn't going to be a hard counter or switch-in to Steel's biggest threats, but it is a solid check to many of them and it handles what my team needs it to handle.

Oh and here's a replay of it putting in a little work against Lax's weird Water team. It didn't do much, but it had a some time to shine at the end.

EDIT: Added in Thunderbolt as an option after WishingJirachi7's recommendation. I still prefer Charge Beam since it's basically the special version of Power Up Punch due to Serene Grace, but Thunderbolt is better if you strictly want Electric coverage.

EDIT 2: Finally saved a replay showcasing AV Rachi at its best. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-306635458 It tanked Hoopa-U's Dark Pulse and was able to take out my scariest threat in that particular battle. I ended up losing, but Jirachi still put in some serious work. This replay also shows how nice Charge Beam is because it's so easy to set up boosts on bulky Pokemon that can't do much to you like Mew or Forretress.

 

[Wish9]

I'd like to throw in my own opinion of Cobalion and just say that Fírnen's set is my new favorite thing to use. Earlier today I was able to win an OT mostly due to his special set.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/monotype-306221672

Sorry I only have one replay, but that was the finals of the OT and I'd say Cobalion was the MVP of this match by far. I was able to punch a couple holes in my opponent's Ground team with HP Ice and Focus Blast and I saved Cobalion until the end just in case I needed it for Landorus. Admittedly my opponent's team wasn't as anti-steel as most Ground teams are (no Focus Blast on Landorus and Garchomp didn't have a Fire move as far as I saw), but I think the outcome would have been the same even if Lando and Garchomp had their anti-steel moves.


On a different topic, I'd like to present my own addition to the "underrated Steel sets" conversation.

Naledi (Jirachi) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Energy Ball
- Charge Beam / Flash Cannon

My Steel team used to struggle a lot with Water. Ferrothorn wasn't working out for me as much as I wanted it to and Magnezone was always walled by the Water/Ground types. Infernape and Keldeo on Fighting were also serious concerns I had, and what Steel team doesn't have issues with Hydreigon? Sure, Scarf Rachi can probably work just as well against those threats, but I refused to ditch my Scarf Excadrill and I'd rather not have two scarf users. Not to mention I wanted Jirachi to be able to switch moves, so my AV Rachi set was born.

KEY: Green=Jirachi is attacking the opponent. Red=The opponent is attacking Jirachi.

Psyshock is your generic special STAB that deals with Infernape and Keldeo.

252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Jirachi: 265-315 (65.7 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Jirachi Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 318-374 (108.5 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Jirachi: 178-210 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 207-244 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Jirachi Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 260-308 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Moonblast is mainly for Hydreigon, but it helps against other Dragons too.

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Jirachi: 242-289 (60 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Jirachi Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 416-492 (128 - 151.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Energy Ball is great coverage, but it's especially useful for the Water/Ground types and Rotom-W.

252+ SpA Jirachi Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 392-464 (97 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Jirachi Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 508-600 (128.9 - 152.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Jirachi: 102-121 (25.3 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Jirachi Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Rotom-W: 170-200 (56.1 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Charge Beam makes use of Jirachi's Serene Grace to give it a 100% chance to boost SpA. I've always loved the Serene Grace Charge Beam combo, but in the past I only ever used it on AV Meloetta. Personally I prefer Charge Beam, but Flash Cannon is fine if you'd rather have a secondary STAB move instead.

AV Jirachi isn't going to be a hard counter or switch-in to Steel's biggest threats, but it is a solid check to many of them and it handles what my team needs it to handle.

Oh and here's a replay of it putting in a little work against Lax's weird Water team. It didn't do much, but it had a some time to shine at the end.

Noice my bae's special set is getting recognition <3


Anyways I think Thunderbolt should get a mention in the last slot since electric coverage is good all-around and has more initial power than Charge Beam at the cost of not having a 60% chance to boost.

 

[Ramy]

Why are yall stopping here at only steel, what about fighting!

Pangoro @ Choice Scarf / Lum Berry
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch / Superpower
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot
- Stone edge

Pangoro like scrafty is underated since there are better fighting types out there and its type isnt really something too special, but pangoro is a different story.

Fighting has a annoying time against ghost, weather it be getting spamming will will-o-wisps from sableye or event trying to revenge kill with keldeo but dang jellicent is there stopping you. Another problem is psychic type pokemon, those little critters always be spamming psyshock or psychic to ruin our day :(. Introducing pangoro to stop all your troubles.

Pangoro is one of 2 pokemon to have the dark/fighting ability, while this is a fairys cup of tea, its not psychics. This thing has a cool combination of stab knock off for any regular psychic pokemon and gunk shot for fairy pokemon like gardevoir.

252 Atk Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 306-362 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 372-438 (123.5 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 306-362 (79.4 - 94%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 232-274 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pangoro Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 360-424 (129.9 - 153%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yummy yummy, let me absorb your psychic while i hit back HARD. and it has amazing fighting movepool to counter with ghost types its AWESOME ability: Scrappy.

252 Atk Pangoro Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 150-176 (49.3 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 236-278 (77.6 - 91.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 266-314 (82 - 96.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

and of course stone edge for flying coverage.

252 Atk Pangoro Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 520-612 (175 - 206%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pangoro Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 242-286 (63 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pangoro Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 220-260 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah, yeah, its not fast, nor is it that fast with scarf, but with scarf it outspeeds anything below 350 speed(which is a LOT of pokemon) that doesnt have scarf with it, and if you really are annoying by its speed, i suggest a lum berry to stop those dang sab from spamming will-o-wisps.

Cons of course is its not fast, and huge weakness to fairy (cobalion help us all ;-;), but with this beast in your party, its more and doubt more and worth it. This was made by the idea of bringing pokemon nobody cared about to see its potential and turning it into a staple for this metagame. (Also with a match me and suspense had and he kept switching to pangoro after i kept using psyshock)

 

[Heatmor]

I dunno. Pangoro hits hard, and it has a good physical movepool, but other than that you will see it's bad defenses, and a miserable speed tier. It's typing is good for Monotype Fighting, but it isn't absolutely fabulous anywhere else, which is kinda why it's never used on Monotype Dark. I've always envisioned Scrafty doing the better job at killing Psychics and Ghosts. With Shed Skin, it can eat up Will'O'Wisps and Scald Burns and if it uses a Dragon Dance at the right moment, it can sweep entire Psychic and Ghost teams. it's bulk is better than Pangoro so it is better at taking hits.

Then again, I could be wrong; Pangoro hits harder and (arguably) has a slightly better movepool than Scrafty. What's your opinion on this?

I am not referring to Scrafty on Monotype Dark.

I wouldn't really recommend using Bulk Up on Pangoro. It's Special Bulk is lacking, even with investment, and it doesn't have the typing to compliment it anyway.

Does anyone have a lure set for Cobalion? That would be very cool, as Cobalion is one of the few things on Mono Fighting that can truly hurt Fairies.

 

[EV]

Oh look, a legit reason to bump the thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-monotype-open-signups.3559834/

 

[Tanamon]

I was testing out in the Mono part of Showdown. I saw a few teams running 2-3 leftovers. Is that ok under these rules? I thought it was single item clause.

 

[MZ]

I was testing out in the Mono part of Showdown. I saw a few teams running 2-3 leftovers. Is that ok under these rules? I thought it was single item clause.

That's only for nintendo's online rules, so if you played battle spot then it'd be an issue. Smogon formats permit it though

 

[terrors]

I was testing out in the Mono part of Showdown. I saw a few teams running 2-3 leftovers. Is that ok under these rules? I thought it was single item clause.

We don't have Item clause in Monotype.

 

[Tanamon]

That's only for nintendo's online rules, so if you played battle spot then it'd be an issue. Smogon formats permit it though

So is that true then in the Monotype Open? That's my only question

 

[MZ]

So is that true then in the Monotype Open? That's my only question

There's no item clause in monotype at all, open or not

 

[Tanamon]

There's no item clause in monotype at all, open or not

I mean the event going on

It says that basic item clause is being used

I just wanted to make sure I get this right, been testing out a team and it's been doing pretty well so I'd like to give it a go

 

[perish song me]

Last post was deleted, fine. But Kaiser literally predicted the entire meta here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-monotype.3544507/page-21#post-6410107 months ago. Maybe he missed a few types (personally I like steel) but the posts right after that covered it. Idk what the next 35 pages in this thread were about but just from playing it doesn't seem like much changed.

Anyways, how do you think flying should play against dark? In my experience, sp def ttar is a good switch to dazzling gleam and has rocks so it's a tough matchup.

 

[Omega-Xis]

If you use Focus Blast Lando-I, I think a good alternative that I tested out awhile back was Superpower Lando-I. I wish I had saved some replays but it really threw dark players for a loop and if you also throw in Knock Off (it does have base 115 Attack) it put in a ton of work against Normal too, which I typically find to be a more annoying matchup for Flying. I think it was around 88 Attack investment (someone can call me out if it needs to be higher) was OHKOing the most common spread unless it was Chople.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that it puts in a lot of work against Steel since Tran can be Sp. Def with Balloon and relying on Focus Blast's accuracy is a bit shifty. It's nice to have Blast for Skarm to carve the whole team singlehandedly, but Lando is usually going to have something like a Thundurus genie or Zap that can compliment it.

 

[1 True Lycan]

I recently came across PK-Kaiser using a psychic monotype team with multiple shadow tag trappers to good effect.

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/origin-monotype-114516
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/origin-monotype-114534
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/origin-monotype-114472

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/origin-monotype-114472
This team is quite gimmicky and so many people aren't taking it seriously. Also it is argued that it autoloses to things such as dark monos or a mega scizor. However I would argue that while this is true, the team is still unhealthy simply because of how matchup based it really is. Some types have no chance against this when gothitelle can just set up to +6 against your walls.

Also, I think the full potential for trappers is yet to be seen. The most effective trapper team only needs 1 or 2 trappers. The infamous rest calm mind gothitelle from ou can do huge amounts of work against a number of types. It could also be tailored to beat certain types. For example, against steel I could trap a heatran and pp stall it (or kill it with hp ground) and then proceed to get a kill every time victini comes in. There is very little counterplay involved for this set and it is very matchup based, and as such I think it could be deemed unhealthy.

Arguments against include the fact that this style of team is very rare. My answer is this: the reason it isn't used very often is because it can sometimes be dead weight. E.g. rest talk gothitelle is doing nothing against a dark mono. However the fact that it can beat some teams without any chance makes it broken in my eyes.

Also tagging ThimoTheUltimateBOBO for his thoughts since I've seen him use a team like this too.

 

[Entei]

Also tagging ThimoTheUltimateBOBO for his thoughts since I've seen him use a team like this too.

Would like to apologise for saying Thimo made the team, Kaiser actually did make it!

Also yeah, we all know how good Gothitelle is, I mean look at it in OU, it was so broken with STag the ability literally got banned.
Now I know this isnt OU but lets think about this a little.. If the variety OU teams have, is still not enough for a single pokemon, how would 6 pokemon of the same type work against that?
And yeah this is too a really general argument but lets be real here, send it at the right time and you can legit sweep anything that doesnt have a dark/bug type among its 1/2 typings.
( see this battle: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/origin-monotype-114516 )
Then imagine TWO of the same thing, not as bulky but tricking over a single pokemon that is meant to support/wall/set-up sweep could put the opponent in a stupidly bad position.

Lets move to Wobbfuffet. These are the only ways to kill it without getting damaged/your mon faint:
1. Have a Spiritomb/Sableye.
2. Be a special attacking Dark-Type(look out for Destiny Bond).
3. Be a physical attacking Ghost-Type (again, look out for Destiny Bond).
4. Have Taunt and a set-up move on the same mon(Blocking Encore and Destiny Bond, just make sure to calc before you attack so they dont remain with like 1% and get to kill you off).
AND you cant escape at all the entire time.. So if the wrong mon is in against it(eg. a choiced mon that is locked into a certain move that barely damages Wobbuffet but since it does double damage with Counter/Mirror Coat it can wear down Wobbuffet's opponent faster and even do it again at a later part of the game, depends on how much damage has been made on Wobbuffet, and how well its user plays it), it can really easily take it down, taking close to no damage at all.

Lets move to the Triple-Megas!

Gallade: I imagine this would be most used against Steel/Rock/Ice/Other Psychic perhaps?(Knock Off+SD)/Ghost?(SD+Knock Off)/Maybe Bug(If you run Rock Slide) /Normal(Maybe not, cause Ditto,which is why I also put Normal last). Because of its Fighting Typing and its access to Knock Off + SD, and even have a filler, which could be a STAB move, ZenHead/PsyCut or some more coverage, maybe SSneak for Priority+some more Psychic+Ghost coverage or Rock Slide for Volcarona/Charizard ETC. And I think this deserves a mention: It was banned before the council stopped type bans(except for Aegislash).

Gardevoir: Lets break down the types it would be used against the most, once more: Dark/Fighting(Latias might be better, see below)/Dragon/maybe Fairy too..
Since forever Gardevoir has been a staple on Psychic teams, dealing quite well against all types. Think about Gardevoir with TRIPLE STag support. In theory(yes, we're theorizing again, but it still happens most of the time), This trio gets at least 3 kills each game. Imagine what happens if it takes/wears down Gardevoir's/Gallade's/Latias's counters. Whats stopping one of those 3 from sweeping the remaining mons left then? A misclick? A timeout? Honestly, I'd like to apologise for using the term "support" when talking about STag.. Its not support its literally something completely untouchable in some cases, and in others, something that is really hard to deal with.

Latias: Types it deals with: Dragon(Gardevoir might do better)/Fighting/Grass/Fire/Electric/Water/Poison/Ground/Flying/Normal/Rock/and Psychic too actually.
Similar to Gallade, this requiers setting up to work really well. But with its incredible bulk, it really isnt a problem.
As 1 True Lycan said(thank you for bringing this up, btw), it might struggle a LOT against Bug/Dark, but it makes the other 16 types go through hell before they figure out how to deal with what they're facing.

This is a really important topic imo, and think you all should start a serious discussion about this. (please correct the statements above if they're wrong).

 

[Heatmor]

Last post was deleted, fine. But Kaiser literally predicted the entire meta here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-monotype.3544507/page-21#post-6410107 months ago. Maybe he missed a few types (personally I like steel) but the posts right after that covered it. Idk what the next 35 pages in this thread were about but just from playing it doesn't seem like much changed.

Anyways, how do you think flying should play against dark? In my experience, sp def ttar is a good switch to dazzling gleam and has rocks so it's a tough matchup.

I have found that AV Tyranitar is a good pivot against Monotype Flying and Monotype Fairy Teams. Since Assault Vest Tyranitar is essentially a +2 Tyranitar, so it is ensured that it will live any unboosted special attack in the metagame. Even with minimum investmen, Tyranitar's movepool allows it to hit things like Skarmory, Mega Diancie, and Landorus-Therian for super-effective damage. Dark has the Controversial Squad (i.e. Hoopa-Unbound, Mega Sableye, Bisharp), to help fight Flying types. I would say that it would be a fair fight.

 

[Gerard]

You're looking at things completely in a vacuum, Wobuffet will NEVER be used on a resisted move, because you can only use it on Psychic so you're never getting hit by a choiced Fighting / Psychic move (and even if you are then over 2/3s of your team can take advantage of that). Other than that it's useless against special dark and physical ghosts (the latter is pretty much restricted to Sableye, MegaBanette and Golurk, all of which can switch in effortlessly, but the former having a lot of dangerous users such as Hydregon, MegaHoundoom, Hoopa-U, among others). That and the power creep means that most often than not Wobb is only ever getting a kill against a choiced mon AFTER said choiced mon has already killed something AND if said choiced mon doesn't outright kill Wobb itself (such as CS Moxie Heracross / Krokodile).

Gothitelle is a different mon, as she can actually do stuff, however being useless against dark IS a big deal, it can only ever set up in passive mons, which is not something that all types even have, if you trap something on Stealth Rock of course you're gonna be able to set up to +6, but that's is more the fault of the player than of the one using Gothitelle, if they let you set up unchallenged then they deserve to lose. If they've got too many passive mons and no way to revenge something like Gothitelle (which is very slow and not that bulky anyway) then that's a problem with their team. ALso the team outright loses to many common fast pokemo, choice scarf users and set up sweepers (off the top of my head QD Volcarona, CS Heracross / Hoopa-U / Krokodile, Mega Gyarados, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Tyranitar, SD Scolipede, NP/Knock Off Thundurus, MegaAbsol, SubGengar, MegaPinsir) and has trouble with others once a few targets are slightly weakened / KOed (LO Yanmega, Mega Sableye, SD Garchomp, Serperior, Weavile, SubSD Hawlucha).

 

[Wanka]

You're looking at things completely in a vacuum, Wobuffet will NEVER be used on a resisted move, because you can only use it on Psychic so you're never getting hit by a choiced Fighting / Psychic move (and even if you are then over 2/3s of your team can take advantage of that). Other than that it's useless against special dark and physical ghosts (the latter is pretty much restricted to Sableye, MegaBanette and Golurk, all of which can switch in effortlessly, but the former having a lot of dangerous users such as Hydregon, MegaHoundoom, Hoopa-U, among others). That and the power creep means that most often than not Wobb is only ever getting a kill against a choiced mon AFTER said choiced mon has already killed something AND if said choiced mon doesn't outright kill Wobb itself (such as CS Moxie Heracross / Krokodile).

Gothitelle is a different mon, as she can actually do stuff, however being useless against dark IS a big deal, it can only ever set up in passive mons, which is not something that all types even have, if you trap something on Stealth Rock of course you're gonna be able to set up to +6, but that's is more the fault of the player than of the one using Gothitelle, if they let you set up unchallenged then they deserve to lose. If they've got too many passive mons and no way to revenge something like Gothitelle (which is very slow and not that bulky anyway) then that's a problem with their team. ALso the team outright loses to many common fast pokemo, choice scarf users and set up sweepers (off the top of my head QD Volcarona, CS Heracross / Hoopa-U / Krokodile, Mega Gyarados, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Tyranitar, SD Scolipede, NP/Knock Off Thundurus, MegaAbsol, SubGengar, MegaPinsir) and has trouble with others once a few targets are slightly weakened / KOed (LO Yanmega, Mega Sableye, SD Garchomp, Serperior, Weavile, SubSD Hawlucha).

Goin to have to debunk some of the things in this post because a lot of it left me face palming.

Basically all I got out of that post was that "Oh who cares that playstyle loses to everything psychic already loses to anyways." Yeah no shit we can all see that but that's not the point people are getting at when talking about the playstyle. In your post you say, "If they've got too many passive mons and no way to revenge something like gothitelle, then that's a problem with their team." What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say to me that balance and bulky flying builds are bad? Is balance normal a bad playstyle? No! The only time you can make the argument you made about things punishing passiveness is when referring to strong wall breakers and STAG mons DO NOT fall under that category so don't put them there by making that argument. (forgot to mention bulky water in my argument and can't go and put it in there cus im on mobile but yeah act like it's in the argument because it makes sense that it is)

Also, the logic that "well any experienced player knows how to deal with so it's the players fault if they let somebody set up unchallenged" That by no means justify's STAG psy's ability to take advantage of the lower and mid ladder portions that may not be as prepared as the higher ladder. The goal is not to focus our thoughts completely around the established community. We can't leave the up and coming in the dust.

All im saying is that we have to avoid these empty posts that explain absolutely nothing and just reiterate pointless shit. As for STAG psy itself, it's a good conversation starter for the mono council and a pretty interesting topic that will be discussed about. Not many people are all that familiar with the style so lets let some of the people who are familiar explain it first before we dive into accusations.

 

[Gerard]

No, what I meant is that you should not put yourself in such a position where the shadow tag team can so easily set upon you, for example, when having a Skarmory against an opposing Shadow Tag mon then don't just mindlessly use Stealth Rock, any other move could have been better, use whirlwind, use brave bird, but don't use a move that allows Gothitelle to set up to +6 and get a sub up, that's just bad play. Without that sub Gothitelle can be revenged killed rather easily because it's nonexistent speed along it's bad defensive typing, in the first match for example, there was no reason for Dragonite to use ExtremeSpeed, if he had gone for the Outrage as he should then he wouldn't have been swiped right there and there. Against Normal, a Porygon with Foul Play (which I've seen a lot) would've beaten it too, or at least prevent it from keeping subs. Gothitelle was suspected because the builds that it allowed to function in OU (mostly MegaSableye teams) used ST to beat most of the common stallbreakers and allowed the rest of the stall team to wall the whole opposing team.

 

[1 True Lycan]

No, what I meant is that you should not put yourself in such a position where the shadow tag team can so easily set upon you, for example, when having a Skarmory against an opposing Shadow Tag mon then don't just mindlessly use Stealth Rock, any other move could have been better, use whirlwind, use brave bird, but don't use a move that allows Gothitelle to set up to +6 and get a sub up, that's just bad play. Without that sub Gothitelle can be revenged killed rather easily because it's nonexistent speed along it's bad defensive typing, in the first match for example, there was no reason for Dragonite to use ExtremeSpeed, if he had gone for the Outrage as he should then he wouldn't have been swiped right there and there. Against Normal, a Porygon with Foul Play (which I've seen a lot) would've beaten it too, or at least prevent it from keeping subs. Gothitelle was suspected because the builds that it allowed to function in OU (mostly MegaSableye teams) used ST to beat most of the common stallbreakers and allowed the rest of the stall team to wall the whole opposing team.

Tbh I can kinda see where you are coming from now. However in that first match kaiser could have just as easily set up on the zapdos, which can't break gothitelle's sub after a discharge or 2. Also the most common OU set for gothitelle was rest, calm mind, psyshock, and trick. Obviously this is walled by any dark type, but it still succeeds in pp stalling any wall (your examples of porygon2 and skarmory both get pp stalled) and if the opponent doesnt have a dark type then gothitelle can set up to +6, get back the choice scarf, then sweep.

I believe this should be banned purely because there is no counterplay. If you use a bulky team without a dark type then you lose from team preview. If not, then gothitelle can probably still trap and kill 1 or 2 mons (unless you are facing hyper offense). Switching is a key part of the game and losing that ability is huge, therefore gothitelle should be banned.

 

[Wanka]

I don't know if you watched the other replays but in the other two, STAG wasn't even the reason kaiser won both games. psy v psy he got a mega latias sweep and vs normal he set up with gothitelle on a porygon2 with only 27% hp. You can't just assume that the p2 will alwats have foul play. And you can't that guys team bad because he doesn't have foul play p2 because not everyone does. You can't just assume people are going to 100% know when they will get tricked or know what all the other sweepers do. The idea behind teams like this is to get into the opponents head and make it difficult for them to try and figure out when you are going to set up and how you are going to do it.

So just making empty accusations by saying "oh that was such a shit play they deserve to lose" comes off as idiotic and doesn't contribute to anything.

 

[Dece1t]

No, what I meant is that you should not put yourself in such a position where the shadow tag team can so easily set upon you, for example, when having a Skarmory against an opposing Shadow Tag mon then don't just mindlessly use Stealth Rock, any other move could have been better, use whirlwind, use brave bird, but don't use a move that allows Gothitelle to set up to +6 and get a sub up, that's just bad play. Without that sub Gothitelle can be revenged killed rather easily because it's nonexistent speed along it's bad defensive typing, in the first match for example, there was no reason for Dragonite to use ExtremeSpeed, if he had gone for the Outrage as he should then he wouldn't have been swiped right there and there. Against Normal, a Porygon with Foul Play (which I've seen a lot) would've beaten it too, or at least prevent it from keeping subs. Gothitelle was suspected because the builds that it allowed to function in OU (mostly MegaSableye teams) used ST to beat most of the common stallbreakers and allowed the rest of the stall team to wall the whole opposing team.

Its a lot easier said than done. Shadow tag prevents you from switching out, so the minute your forced to come into a wall, and your tricked into choice scarf, it's kinda hopeless. Granted I can imagine HO builds may not have as much trouble besides from Wobba, but typically you'd have at least one defensive pivot, and the moment your forced to send that in for whatever reason, there you go.

 

[scpinion]

my opinions, not the council's

I think the STag discussion is worth having within the context of the Monotype metagame and I'm excited to see where this goes. While the breed of stall STag enabled in OU isn't available in Monotype, some of the general concepts that made it uncompetitive remain: inability to switch, enhancing team matchup factor, reliably removing specific check/counters, easy setup on passive 'mons.

The final point, easy setup on passive 'mons is what I currently view as most important for our metagame. Most high-level Monotype teams carry multiple passive 'mons, which Gothitelle(+Gothorita) can prey on and use for easy setup. A single double switch into the trapper leaves the opponent unable to reliably respond in many cases, even with proper/best play.

This combo isn't new to Monotype, I remember losing to it, and not being able to do much about it with a "standard" team, multiple times over the last year or so. However, Thimo has built another cancer squad and put it out in the open (opposed to being some kind of troll/meme team you occasionally find on the ladder) and I'd assume we're going to see more of it.

A final note/request: When discussing this, I implore you guys to continue discussing it in the context of replays. Either analyzing an actual in-battle situation, or (politely) responding to someone that has already done that. Theory 'moning on this stuff isn't going to help us move forward.

 

[Isza]

I saw Earlier Lycan brought up the discussion of my shadow Tag Psychic team, and I have to admit it can be tricky to deal with if you don't know how to handle it.

The team started out as a gimmic, after I lost an OLT Ladder match to Get Backer with him using a 4 Trapper team I figured it could work in Monotype maybe as well. While Making the team I saw some of the true potentials of using shadow tag in our metagame. As shown below here are some great cores that can work with shadow Tag on Mono Psychic:

Gothitelle+Victini Vs Steel
This is a pretty simple Idea that may work very well. Forcing out Heatran with Victini, then going to goth so you can either trick/PP stall it, or kill it with a specs HP Ground, then Victini cleans up.
Gothitelle + Offensive Starmie Vs Ground
Once again same concept. Trapping the water absorber, then cleaning with Starmie. Limited counter play.
Gothitelle + Mega Gallade Vs Flying
You can Trap Skarmory with Goth, then Gallade is able to dent the team.


I feel Shadow tag is a fun (and dangerous) toy we can all test for ourselves to see it's true power in our metagame. Maybe someone can make a really cool team with it oo. I advice everyone share their thoughts on the matter, and even make a team for yourselves using shadow tag!

 

[The-Vale]

Although I haven't had much chance to try out shadow tag i do feel it will be one of those things that will be hard to deal with at first but after a while people will catch onto the strategy and start developing ways to counter it such as shed shells or learning when those trappers will come in. It will be interesting to see how much these teams develop also in terms of support but hopefully a rise in this team type will add more variety into mono